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Severn
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25 posted 02-21-2002 07:13 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Of course you can tear it apart. So why don't you?

Technique? They don't NEED technique - it's up to God to fertilise the seeds remember...so who CARES how the message is going to be delivered if God has it all under control in the end.

Honestly - Christians (well the one's I've met anyway) don't seem to care about HOW just that they DO get the message across. It's like...sigh...they are infused with a belief that God can conquer even the hardest non-believer, so who gives a damn how it's said as long as the message is given.

Why should they care, if in their rationale, the message and not the delivery is the most important?

K

[This message has been edited by Severn (02-21-2002 07:27 AM).]

Brad
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26 posted 02-21-2002 07:32 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

"Honestly - Christians (well the one's I've met anyway) don't seem to care about HOW just that they DO get the message across."

--Of course they don't. But if they want to talk to those who don't believe, shouldn't it matter?

--It's not that they're wrong, it's that they don't care about what the people who they're trying to convert actually think. I believe Christians, if they believe what they believe, try to do things that do nothing but hurt their (Christian)religion.

==Albeit, it does work sometimes.

--They don't look at the person, they look at themselves and assume that what worked for them will work for me or for someone else.  

--And that is a mistake.

--Why not look at what I say?

--Why not tear me apart?


Brad
Severn
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27 posted 02-21-2002 08:21 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

"Honestly - Christians (well the one's I've met anyway) don't seem to care about HOW just that they DO get the message across."

--Of course they don't. But if they want to talk to those who don't believe, shouldn't it matter?

***Perhaps it should, but tell that to the Christians who are indoctrinated about the message, and only the message. The other day I walked down the street, through crowds of people, and walked past a man in an impeccable suit, crying out 'it's meant to be Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve! There's too much of this going on...ra ra ra' and on and on.

How many people do you think heard the man, or just laughed at his spectacle?

He didn't care - he was doing God's work, assured of a place in heaven. Laying seeds in the souls of the needy, trusting God to reach through the hardened shells...


--It's not that they're wrong, it's that they don't care about what the people who they're trying to convert actually think. I believe Christians, if they believe what they believe, try to do things that do nothing but hurt their (Christian)religion.

** You're wrong - they do care what the people think. They just want them to think another way - that's still caring about their thinking. If they are hurting their religion, it certainly has nothing to do with viewing people as projects...rather...a naive trust in the powers of God to fertilise the seeds...nevermind the psyche of the individual at hand, and the way in which their religion is perceived as a consequence. Those things are incidental...and also, Christians are taught that they've already won they great battle...small losses are nothing compared to the glory of the second coming. Nevermind the image NOW, it's what to come that matters.

==Albeit, it does work sometimes.

--They don't look at the person, they look at themselves and assume that what worked for them will work for me or for someone else.

** Of course - we're all God's children to them. All capable of the same salvation. 'There is no jew, no gentile, no slave or free, no man or woman - we are all one in Christ Jesus' - well that's how I remember it.

--And that is a mistake.

** but not to them, hence their inability to deliver the technique.

K

Brad
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28 posted 02-21-2002 08:42 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

"He didn't care - he was doing God's work, assured of a place in heaven. Laying seeds in the souls of the needy, trusting God to reach through the hardened shells..."

Interesting point:

So as long as you talk, it doesn't matter what happens? Is that what Christians think?

You make some very good points, and Interloper, for example, has said much the same thing.

If that's Christianity (not Christ), maybe I give it more respect than it deserves.

I'm thinking,
Brad
Allan Riverwood
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29 posted 02-21-2002 08:57 AM       View Profile for Allan Riverwood   Email Allan Riverwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Allan Riverwood

I agree that Christians work to convert people because it is their holy mission, and not because they genuinely care about others.

I mean, it must be hard to express genuine concern for someone who your God wishes to torture eternally.  That already creates a bias with which Christians looks down upon the unsaved... imagine worshipping a creature who has a list of people that he will torture in Hell for eternity.  And you still worship this creature?  If you do, then you must not be nuts about these people...

Although maybe some Christians don't like to think of that very much.  It's about "love," after all.

The point is, they try to convert people because they are "doing a good thing" in the eyes of their God.  Everything is imperfect except God, and all evil comes from humans. God can do only good things.  (which is funny, considering he made humanity when he was bored one day)

I don't consider anyone who believes that my creed makes me deserving of hell to actually care about me.

[This message has been edited by Allan Riverwood (02-21-2002 08:58 AM).]

Ron
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30 posted 02-21-2002 09:50 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Most of what has been said here can be applied to just about ANY human pursuit. Teaching immediately comes to mind as a case where most practitioners are their own worst enemy. For too many kids, the only thing they ever learn in school is to hate learning. Does that make teaching wrong? Or is it, rather, a condemnation of Sturgeon's infamous ninety percent?

I doubt it matters which field you examine, it's always easy enough to find fault with those who do it wrong. Perhaps more could be learned, however, from those who do it correctly?
Brad
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31 posted 02-21-2002 10:04 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Anything?

There are some things we all agree on.

No, I'm not changing my position, but don't play around here. Explain, why you're a Christian or don't bother contributing.

Admittedly, you don't have to.

But don't use your strength here.

C'mon, Ron, you can do better than that.

Enough,
Brad
Alicat
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32 posted 02-21-2002 10:15 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

I can't even count the number of times a 'well intentioned' person who saw me as 'lost' tried to convert my way of thinking, or who have bashed on what I believe, or have tried to get a reaction from me by denouncing my personal faith as a sham...or worse. And since friendships derive from mutual respect, I can't say I still consort with them. Just because I forgive, doesn't mean I have to like.

BTW, I'm a Christian, one of the quiet ones with the rarest of spiritual gifts: the gift of works. And the ones who persecuted my personal faith (and me in the process) were a medley: Atheist, Agnostic, Pantheist, Wiccan, Pagan, and one egomaniac who created his own religion as he went along. And lets not leave out fellow Christians...one only needs to look at the history of Christianity, from 1000 AD to Present, to see how poorly people of the same basic faith can treat each other.

I'm an odd one though, I know...I don't get offended when someone tells me Blessed Be, Merry Yule, Happy Beltain, Amen, Pax Christu, or any other religious acknowledgement/slogan. I know what they're trying to say, and leave it at that. I also know there are some who will read the above and come to the conclusion that I can't be a Christian, or a 'True' Christian, since I don't fit the mold. And that's OK. Judging others has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with being people...it's called choice.

Well, I think I've rambled enough

Pax Poeticus

“It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most
intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.”  Charles Darwin

Interloper
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33 posted 02-21-2002 12:20 PM       View Profile for Interloper   Email Interloper   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Interloper

Brad ~
You KNEW I'd have to jump in here
I don't know if you invoked my name or if it is being used in a pejortive manner

You said"--It's not that they're wrong, it's that they don't care about what the people who they're trying to convert actually think. I believe Christians, if they believe what they believe, try to do things that do nothing but hurt their (Christian)religion."

You know, I don't actively proselytize.  I don't feel comfortable with that and neither do many thousands of Christians.  However, if I were to be drawn into such a discussion, the single most important thing to me would be what the other person thinks.  Otherwise, how could I intelligently interact with that person?  So, how could that hurt my "Christian religion?"

You also said"--They don't look at the person, they look at themselves and assume that what worked for them will work for me or for someone else."

I am disappointed in such a statement from you.  Such a generally presumptive statement is beneath your intellect.  I am certainly the exception to that assumption.  Each person is unique and their motivation, or lack thereof, is uniquely generated.  What worked for me probably wouldn't work for many other people I have met.

I have found that it is far better to "walk the walk" and let others observe.  Does that mean I don't make mistakes; HUGE mistakes?  NO!  I do, however, try very hard to live up to my beliefs and set a good example(my temper is my biggest challenge).


[This message has been edited by Interloper (02-21-2002 04:54 PM).]

Ron
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34 posted 02-21-2002 01:43 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Explain, why you're a Christian or don't bother contributing.


Brad, your last post confuses me. YOU haven't explained why you're a Christian, and one might even guess that not everyone in this thread IS a Christian. Besides, since when should that be a criteria for contributing to a discussion?

Don't use your strength here? I'm unclear (again) what that means, but my immediate reaction would be, "Why not?"

If you wanted to discuss writers instead of evangelists, I suspect we would end up talking mostly about the good ones. Not the ninety percent (at least!) who get it all wrong. I'm not suggesting we can't learn from bad writers, because we can. I AM saying that bad writers shouldn't be representative of the craft. Human endeavors are defined not by the majority, but by the accomplished.

What can we learn from the ones doing it poorly?

Proselytizing isn't limited to religion, but is a facet of human nature, and exists largely because most of us unconsciously assign our own expectations and assumptions to others. I want to be healthy and live a long life, so I figure you do, too. That's an assumption. If I believe that red meat leads to an unhealthy life, I might just try to point that out to you. Especially if I believe it strongly. Especially if I care what happens to you. Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, nor do I think it would do me much good to try to change it. It's far too deeply ingrained in who and what we are.

HOW I go about pointing it out to you, however, is another matter entirely. If Joe in the next cubicle eats lunch with you every day and harps every time you order a burger, that's probably going to get pretty irritating. If Joe swings by at the end of the day to tell you how good he still feels after that big plate of soy salad, it's probably going to get pretty irritating. If Joe buys you a pork chop for your next birthday, that's likely going to be about the last straw.

But does Joe represent the entire health industry?

If you actually wanted to find out more about the effects of red beef on the human digestive system, do you think you'd ask Joe about it? There is still no conclusive evidence, and you are NOT going to find an unbiased source, but I nonetheless suspect you would look to a doctor, a nutritionist, an athlete you respect, or just about anybody EXCEPT Joe.

Let's reverse the situation a minute.

If you believed red beef was dangerous, would you feed it to your kids? If you believed marijuana too often led to drug exploration, would you introduce it to your little brother? If you believed vitamin C and beta-carotene could prolong useful life, would you give your mom a bottle of vitamins on her sixtieth birthday? If you believed reading could extend personal horizons, would you make sure your children saw you with a book occasionally or would you sit in front of the television all night?

Now, why would you do any less for a friend? Or even a stranger?

EVERY SINGLE TIME we try to help another human being, that help is predicated on our assumptions and our beliefs in what is good or bad. I would certainly agree that we should more closely examine our beliefs before we hoist them on others, but I doubt that's really the big problem. The big problem, I think, is that almost no one ever examines their assumptions. You cannot assume that because you want to lead a long and boring live, everyone else does, too. You cannot assume that because you want to learn more sophisticated writing techniques, everyone else does, too (or that they should want to, which is just a different kind of assumption).

Unless someone has explicitly asked for your help, the chances are somewhere between excellent to damned sure that your assumptions about what they want are NOT going to valid. (You're probably wrong even if they do ask, but at least the odds aren't quite so badly skewed against you.)

In the short term, your ability to spread your beliefs can be based on several things, including social power (parents and kids, as one example) and even - once in a great while - merit. In the long term, however, your success is going to depend on correctly accessing motivations. Those who are unable to do this reasonably well are just going to irritate the dickens out of us. They are going to harp and harp on things we don't care about, little realizing they should instead be finding out what we DO care about. I don't think that necessarily means their beliefs are wrong. Maybe red meat really does clog arteries and other less mentionable orifices. But I don't want to hear about that while I'm eating a nice rare steak.

It really doesn't matter whether Joe is preaching to you about red meat, about monogamous relationships, about using the word "soul" in a poem, or about Christianity. If he does it poorly, with no reference to your own agenda, it's going to be irritating. That almost goes without saying. The real question, I submit, is whether your reaction would be different if it was done correctly.

Put another way, would you have the same beef with Mother Theresa or Martin Luther King?


serenity blaze
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35 posted 02-21-2002 08:40 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I humbly submit my belief, that spiritual enlightenment, is only "done correctly" alone. But granted, Ron, if Mother Theresa or Martin Luther King had something to say to me today, I would listen, MOST respectfully, considering that they are deceased, and should have a bit more information than I.

But I did not miss the point--and yes, before I listen to someone regarding anything, I do look at the entire situation, including whether their own advice has worked for THEM--

I started out here, just venting, but as always I ended up thinking. As I stated earlier, normally these things don't bother me...as Ron pointed out, it was the persistance of it all that "got my goat" (no wiccan pun intended )

I would like to re-iterate that I am always open to conversation. And I am enjoying this one, as well. Thanks.
Temptress
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36 posted 02-21-2002 08:44 PM       View Profile for Temptress   Email Temptress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Temptress

Ron?
I've been watching and reading this thread when I can. I haven't had time to contribute very much to anything here at Passions lately...

but may I just say that your reply was awesome, and although I don't agree with all of it, I agree or at least see your points more clearly on MOST of it?

I'll keep reading. This is getting interesting.   and I had to come in and reply so I could add it to my library. Did I ever say that I LOVE observing people and their behavior? I do...so..lol..everyone..I'm watching you.


For all who watch.Dare you say hello? Come in and ask the questions that are on your mind, but spare me your judgement until you truly sipped of me.

[This message has been edited by Temptress (02-21-2002 08:45 PM).]

Brad
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37 posted 02-21-2002 08:56 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Interloper,

Certainly not intended as pejorative. I was, however, referring to two comments you said rather close together that while taken separately were quite reasonable, taken together seemed contradictory.

You quoted the duty of Christians to spread the gospel but then asked why you should worry about converting me.

I liked everything you said here but still don't understand your obsession with intellect and intelligence.

Ron,

I thought you were dodging the whole point.

If the goal of a Christian is to convert, isn't it their duty to worry about how they do it in order to be effective? The argument, as I understand it, is "no, as long as they speak, the results aren't important." This is a concern with self, not the people you preach to.

And that seems to go against the whole point of preaching in the first place.

In writing, teaching, [preaching] veganism, or whatever, if you're goal is to get other people to like it, to change someone, then
it matters how you do it (you concede this), but you seem to assume that some people can (the most accomplished) and some people can't. Fair enough, but the argument, however, is that those who can't don't have to try.

As long as a teacher teaches, it doesn't matter what happens to the students.

As long as a writer writes, it doesn't matter if anybody reads it.

As long as I tell you red meat is bad, it doesn't matter if people die.

True, if your goal is simply to write for yourself, to teach for yourself, to tell other people what to do, this is correct. But in all these cases, it's almost always the case that the very reason for doing it is dependent on the reaction of others.

And that means you can fail.

But does that mean you shouldn't try to succeed?

More later,
Brad
Ron
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38 posted 02-21-2002 10:34 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I wasn't trying to dodge the point, Brad, so much as I was trying to be brief. Not a lot of time these days. But, of course, brevity has never been my greatest strength, and now you can perhaps understand why I so seldom try it.  

quote:
But does that mean you shouldn't try to succeed?

Yea, I think it means exactly that.

Bad doctors shouldn't kill people, bad teachers should ruin kids for the rest of their lives, and bad evangelists shouldn't preach to anyone except other bad evangelists.

It is a very common misconception that all Christians are spiritually required to spread the Gospel. Ali alluded to that, I think, when he mentioned the gift of works. Yes, some Christians are called to be evangelists. But not all. And, in my opinion, not even very many. (1 Cor. 12: 27-31)

Do you happen to know what the criteria is for being a prophet? Or, put another way, how does the Bible tell us to distinguish between God's prophets and false ones? The criteria is actually pretty simple. A prophet of God is NEVER wrong. Catch a prophet in even one mistake, one small lie, and you've stripped them of their divine origins. Now, I'm not sure the standards are quite that high for evangelists - but I think they should be. If preaching turns people away from God, then you have not a false prophet, but a false evangelist.

Being a Christian, good or otherwise, doesn't automatically make someone an infallible prophet. I can't, for the life of me, understand why so many people think it should make them a good evangelist.

Except, of course, it's human nature to preach. About religion, about red meat, or about how cute their grandchildren are. Twenty years ago, I often made the horrible mistake of correcting them. Sorry, but some of those little kids really DID have big ears! I might have scared a few old ladies, but I don't think I ever convinced anyone they were wrong. I guess I still regress from time to time, but mostly I just smile vacantly and keep walking my own path. After all, we can't really hope to change human nature, can we?  

Brad
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39 posted 02-21-2002 10:41 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

One of these days, I'm going to have to figure out why this one is getting me going so much. Perhaps, I still have a certain residual Christianity popping up in this head of mine.

Ron said:

"The real question, I submit, is whether your reaction would be different if it was done correctly."

--But that question makes no sense to me. "Correctly" is defined by the result, not some perfect form that's out there. When I said 'explain why you're a Christian', I meant don't step back and generalize the whole thing as human nature or whatever, but give me something more interesting than the usual guy who knocks on my door with glazed over eyes and a certain overzealous smile. Get in the argument as a Christian (which you have said you were -- did I misunderstand this?). When you generalize as you did, you end up privileging Christianity because teachers, writers, and vegans do not, on the same level, do the same actions that Alicat describes.

--And if they did, we would generally see them as, well, strange. Wouldn't we?

--I think we should see certain Christian actions just as strangely.      

"Put another way, would you have the same beef with Mother Theresa or Martin Luther King?"

--Ah, the ultimate ad. hom. argument (Are you sure you were that puzzled by my earlier post? ). I can't say that ad. hom.'s are always wrong since they seem absolutely necessary to make judgements on who or what to listen or read to and deciding on reputation is a good bet.

--But relying completely on it, again, defeats the whole purpose of reading or listening in the first place. Can I find something to disagree with in Martin Luther King's writing and life? In Mother Theresa's?

--Of course.

--It seems fairly clear that King was no saint and Mother Theresa (who'll probably become a saint) used funds to start Catholic Churches, funds that were intended to help the poor in India. According to Christopher Hitchins, anyway, Mother Theresa is guilty of fraud and hypocrisy.

--Does this take away from the good things that they did?

--No, and the only reason anyone would think that it did would be to think of them as gods.

--I don't believe in gods.  

Brad

PS I hope it goes without saying that I am not talking about Christians as a whole, just the type who told my friend once that he was going to hell because he was Jewish.

We were in a subway, he came up to us, a cross in his hands, and proceeded to ask us our religion. We didn't ask him.  
Ron
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40 posted 02-22-2002 04:52 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I humbly submit my belief, that spiritual enlightenment, is only "done correctly" alone.

It may surprise you, Karen, but I essentially agree with that statement. But only "essentially" because I think there are a few over-simplifications hidden between the words.

The first centers around the word enlightenment. Certainly, I don't believe that anyone can "know" God through the efforts of another. I can write hundreds of thousands of words about my sister, and you may learn a great deal about her through my eyes, but you won't really know her until you meet her. Close-up. Personal. Long term. On the other hand, if you're cruising around Michigan looking for her, I just might be able to point out you're in the wrong bloody state. Enlightenment, in that sense, can be helpful. Personally, I think if you really wanted to meet my sister, you'd find your way to California even without my enlightenment. All I really did was save you some time. But that can be good, too.

More importantly, though, I question whether any of us are ever really alone?  

Brad, I didn't cite Mother Theresa and King as authorities, but as examples. Because I strongly disagree that "correctly" is defined entirely by result. That theory leads to compulsive gamblers and others who keep doing the same thing over and over just because it worked for them in the past. It's how most parents raise their children, repeating the mistakes of their own parents because "I didn't turn out so badly." It's why dogs salivate at the sound of a bell. It is wrong, wrong, wrong. If you don't analyze WHY something works (or doesn't work), you've turned a key and disabled the mind.

Mother Theresa and Martin Luther King are examples of the right way to evangelize because, no matter what else you can say about them, they cared about individuals. Notice I didn't say they cared about people? Most of our Members, and I suspect most writers in general, care about people. Caring about people is actually pretty easy. If nothing else, your conviction will probably never be put to the test. Caring about individual is very, very different. Much harder. And, sadly, exceedingly rare.

I am not suggesting that the Sister or the Reverend could have necessarily changed your own personal convictions. Their RESULTS may have been no different than the jerk on the subway. But I do believe, had you met one of them, had you listened to one of them, you would not have been in the least bit irritated by what they had to say to you. Even in disagreement, you would have sensed and I think respected their motivations.

Finally (for this morning), when I generalize religion and compare it to teaching, writing, or nutrition, I do so very deliberately and for what I believe is a good reason. Christianity is not about Christ. It's about people. It's just another human endeavor, another human invention, and I want to emphasize with my generalities that it encompasses ALL of the failures of history. It really is no different than teaching, writing, or scientific discoveries. People make mistakes. People do dumb things. The faults lie not in the foundation, but in the walls humanity has erected upon the foundation.

Want to hear an interesting dichotomy?

I think the most common mistake people make is inadvertently humanizing God. The second most common, and what I alluded to above, is that people tend to deify the Church. Both, I think, lead to terrible confusions.
serenity blaze
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41 posted 02-22-2002 01:49 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Hmmm...I guess it just boils down to a definition of "enlightenment?" If this is argument, isn't our personal definitions what this is about? I know that I over-simplify. It's a necessity in my case.

I like the analogy of your sister. But hopefully, if I were to meet your sister, close-up, personal and for the long term, I would no longer think of her as YOUR sister, but as MY friend!

And I totally agree with you Ron! In fact, you made me very happy today!
Brad
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42 posted 02-22-2002 05:38 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Thanks, Ron. I thought you were moving in a very different direction. I was wrong.

Perhaps I should have had a little more faith?

I still disagree on a number of points but I'll save those for other threads. I really like the people versus individual distinction, I think it captures what Elison was getting at in 'Invisible Man'.

Larry C
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43 posted 02-24-2002 02:42 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

Very sorry I came so late upon this discussion! Very interesting. The biggest flaw of Christians is they forget their humanity and that God gave all humanity the freedom of choice. Which only proves how so many Christians make bad choices. And if a sincere Christian who thinks he understands the gospel can make such bad choices he should assume that everyone is capable of bad choices. I'm just a servant and can't do the Master's work for Him. It isn't my job. And finally, nobody has a monopoly on God.
Interloper
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44 posted 02-25-2002 02:53 PM       View Profile for Interloper   Email Interloper   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Interloper

Brad,

You said "I liked everything you said here but still don't understand your obsession with intellect and intelligence."

I'm usually suspicious of a compliment followed by a "but" which cancels the preceding words

I doubt seriously that I have an obsession with anything.

You also said "One of these days, I'm going to have to figure out why this one is getting me going so much. Perhaps, I still have a certain residual Christianity popping up in this head of mine "

Could that be a "small, still voice" deep inside

Serenity,

You said "Hmmm...I guess it just boils down to a definition of "enlightenment?" If this is argument, isn't our personal definitions what this is about? I know that I over-simplify. It's a necessity in my case."

I have a slight problem with your "enlightenment" and "personal definitions."  To start with the second term, there are no "personal" definitions.  You cannot redefine a truth.  You cannot call it "your" truth.  There is only truth and untruth.  You can call a car a spade, if you wish, that does not make it a spade or anything other than a car.


With respect to "enlightenment," I, like Brad, like to use the dictionary:
"enlighten. v 1: make understand; "Can you enlighten me--I don't understand this proposal" [syn: edify] 2: give spiritual insight to; in religion [syn: irradiate] 3: make free from confusion or ambiguity; make clear: "Could you clarify these remarks?"; "Clear up the question of who is at fault" [syn: clarify, clear, clear up, shed light on, crystallize, straighten out, sort out, illuminate, elucidate]"

Which, specifically, do you mean?

Larry,

Wow!  What a statement!  How all encompassing!  Just how do Christians forget their humanity?   I believe Christians remember their humanity maybe more than others ... after all we believe we were saved by God becoming human and dying for our sins.  We know we sin and we have a freedom of choice and that we, like all humans, made and make bad choices (sin).  We understand that.  Yes, we do.  The difference is we can ask for, and receive, forgiveness for our bad choices.  

Quote
______________________________________________________________________
I'm just a servant and can't do the Master's work for Him. It isn't my job.
_______________________________________________________________________

Is that your statrement or what you believe a Christian might say?  I, for one, believe I am a servant of God and I will do whatever work He leads me to perform.  It is my job to do as he has told me to do and I will do it to the very best of my ability.

Finally, I agree that nobody has a monopoly on God.  Everybody has the ability to speak to Him, follow his Word, reject Him, or reject His Word all of which is a part of the free choice we all have.
serenity blaze
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45 posted 02-25-2002 05:42 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Interloper, why can't I have all of the above?

You say there is simply truth and untruth. My perception of what you perceive to be the truth may (and probably does) differ. Using Ron's analogy again, his sister is (I am presuming) one person, known to others in many different faculties. She is somebody's sister. She is somebody's daughter. She is still the same person, but perceived by others differently. And I don't particularly have a problem with how she is defined by others. That is all I have really been trying to say. And Ron could call her "sister" until the cows come home, but that will never actually make her MY sister.


Peace.
Interloper
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Deep in the heart


46 posted 02-25-2002 06:05 PM       View Profile for Interloper   Email Interloper   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Interloper

serenity,

You make my point for me.  You, and anybody else, can call Ron's sister anything you wish (sister, mother, daughter, cousin, etc) but that does not change who she is (the truth of her,if you will).

People have many roles in life and they may be described by any and all of them but that does not change WHO they are;  The essence of their existence.  
serenity blaze
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47 posted 02-25-2002 06:08 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

chuckling...so glad that you agree with me!
Irie
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48 posted 02-25-2002 06:56 PM       View Profile for Irie   Email Irie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Irie

Serenity,

After a long drawn out reply, I changed my mind.
Check your email!

~Sheri

"The things that come to those that wait may be the things
left by those who got there first"


serenity blaze
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49 posted 02-25-2002 08:18 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Thank you so much. Big hugs and you are a living testimonial--no need for words of witness from you! Made my night, you did!
 
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