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Passions in Poetry

Gripes about music?

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Mistletoe Angel
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50 posted 05-21-2003 12:50 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Very true, and the same goes for jazz music. So many fail to recognize exactly how the sounds are parallel to the running and reeling of emotions or intuition of each individual! Hyde, Mozart, Vivaldi...they were all excellent at that, and I think jazz music is the kind of music that comes closest to defining expression, even when I haven't found nothing that rivals the classics, at least in orchestration.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

Underneath your clothes, there's an endless story

***Shakira***

Opeth
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51 posted 05-21-2003 12:55 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Absolutely. There is much artistic value in jazz music.

Example: Victor Wooten is one of the most amazing bass players that I have ever heard.
Kamala
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52 posted 05-22-2003 02:59 PM       View Profile for Kamala   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kamala

Opeth --

It's taken me a while, but I'm finally getting back to you... my apologies for the delay; I hope you read this.

~ Not necessarily simpler, but an idea that after expressed, seemed so easy that it was right there in front of all of us, which is not the same meaning as merely "simple music."

Yeah... you did a better job of saying it, but the above is what I was getting at.  Ideas that are so simple that someone should have thought of them before, but it took some kind of genius to make it apparent.

As far as your understanding Spears tracks and such right away... I doubt it.  Just like you said... it sounds easy, but pop music -- even hers -- often has intricate stuff going on.  Now, I just want to say -- I *hate* Britney Spears.  And while I've watched her vids for amusement, I do not consider myself a fan, nor would I choose to listen to her.  But, I can see why other people do, and I don't think (as you seem to) that that makes them mindless dumb matrix-bound drones.

Having said that, let me also say... I've had "My Arms, Your Hearse" for a while now.  And I would certainly not choc it up to noise, devil music, or whatever.  And I think that people who do are pretty much doing the same thing to Opeth that you appear to be doing to Spears.  Granted... you would never equate the two... but, much as you may hate this, they're more similar than they seem.  

Yes, Opeth has a melodism above the norm for black metal, I would say.  And there's no denying their craftsmanship and sense of musicality.  However, what they are doing is really not that much more complex than most other forms of pop music.  Their songs differ in formal structure, but that is the nature of black metal, in general.  There's also a greater emphasis on drums and fills and such, which makes their rhythm section *sound* more complex, but it's really not.  (Though I admire the virtuosity and sheer endurance of most black metal drummers.)  Also, their sense of chordal progression, harmonic rhythm, dissonance... these are all the same as in Spears, sorry to say.  And as for Opeth's timbral universe, it's limited by the genre, I think, to a few stock sounds.  Now, I don't say that because it's a bad thing; I say it because it's true.  Compare Opeth's sonic universe to a Stereolab or even a Beck and you'll find that their sonic palette is just much smaller.  But -- I follow all of that critical review with the statement that, I happen to think Opeth is pretty cool.  I just also happen to think that they're more on par with the popular musics you seem very eager to distinguish them from.

As for the Mozart point -- comparing him to popular musicians of today... you might want to check out an article by Rene Lysloff entitled "Mozart in Mirrorshades" in the journal Ethnomusicology (Spring-Summer 1997) Vol.41, No. 2... pages 206-214.

Jesus -- you know I'm getting into this when I start citing stuff.  But anyway -- it's worth a look.  Lysloff's argument was that if Mozart was around right now, and had access to current technologies, he might very well be Beck or Aphex Twin or Ricky Martin.  

And as for this:

~ Yes. Mostly, dumb-downed simple dance or toe-tapping music created by the media and record company execs to make heaps of money.

I need to point out here again... take an event like the Blackest of the Black that just happened at the Universal Ampitheatre here in LA a few weekends ago... if you were to go there, you'd find a mass of people, probably wearing all black, probably with shirts of indecipherable calligraphy on them, jumping around... screaming... moshing... yelling... rebelling against "the norm"... rebelling against christianity, in all likelihood, etc.  and I fail to see how that's any different than a bunch of people toe-tapping.

I'm such the ultra relativist that I see equal merit and respectability in both.

Hope I haven't irrevocably pissed you off.  And if I have, it was my last intention.  I've actually really enjoyed engaging with you on this topic.

Kamala


Opeth
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53 posted 05-22-2003 03:43 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Kamala,

First, let me say that you have not pissed me off at all. I don't get pissed during debates or discussions. When one gets pissed during debates or discussions, one loses their ability to think clearly and without bias as emotions then dictate thoughts or actions.

You make interesting points, indeed.

However, I disagree with you on some of what you have written.

1. Opeth is not Black Metal. Opeth is progressive metal with elements of Black Metal among many others. Mikey said so himself and he should know.

2. Although there are similiar elements between music such as Opeth and massed produced pop music, to claim that they are basically the same is in error.  The masses listen to pop music and "get" it right away, therefore the music becomes popular and sells. The melodies are easy to "get." It is that simple. These same people would listen to Opeth or Dream Theater and other prog bands and not "get" it right away.

How would you explain that difference? Why don't the "masses" get that type of music right away?

3. Those moshers, the "masses" you called them, are actually a minority when viewed by the popular and society "accepted" music of today. You were looking in a microcosm of small select group of people and not at the "full picture."

4. I beg to differ, I "get" the popular music right away. I understand it. It is not complicated at all. That is why it bores the hell out of me.

I probably have more, but I am running short of time.

Btw...You own My Arms, eh? Interesting. Not too many people on this site know of or own Opeth music. What is your favorite track on that cd and why?  Do you understand the entire concept of that particular cd?  What do you think of the mixing of "black metal" with acoustical progressive riffs and melodies coupled with the mixing of "death growls" and clean vox?

I am interested in hearing your opinion of one of my all-time, still listening and learning new things after hundreds of hearings, cd.



  

[This message has been edited by Opeth (05-23-2003 07:25 AM).]

Opeth
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54 posted 05-27-2003 09:25 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Kamala,

You never replied back. Have you actually thoroughly listened to My Arms, Your Hearse?

Hmmmm.

Kamala
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55 posted 05-27-2003 04:59 PM       View Profile for Kamala   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kamala

Opeth,

going through some stuff... still ruminating.  i haven't forgotten about you.  i will reply back... just give me some time.

sorry to be so short at the moment... i just didn't want you to feel neglected.

kamala
Opeth
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56 posted 05-28-2003 07:00 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Kamala,

You gave me a good chuckle this morning. I don't feel neglected. With all due honesty, I really don't believe you have thoroughly listened to that particular cd and I could be wrong, but I think you are confusing a band called Otep, with Opeth. As I know all of Opeth's work and am scratching my head at some of your specific comments about their music.

  

[This message has been edited by Opeth (05-28-2003 07:03 AM).]

Opeth
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57 posted 05-28-2003 07:07 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Lysloff's argument was that if Mozart was around right now, and had access to current technologies, he might very well be Beck or Aphex Twin or Ricky Martin."

~ Mr. Lysloff needs some shock treatment. If there is one particular genre of music that Mozart would be similiar to if he were alive today, it would most likely be progressive rock/metal - certainly not Ricky Martin or Beck.  

Kamala
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58 posted 05-29-2003 04:56 PM       View Profile for Kamala   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kamala

Opeth, opeth, opeth... oh ye of little faith... and quite literally, that!

I am indeed talking about Opeth.  And I've actually spent the past four or so days re-communing with the album to see if I can follow what you see in it.  I'm head-scratching, myself.

I mean, firstly, it is undeniably Black Metal.  And mikey saying it isn't is a lot like Debussy hating the word "Impressionist."  Doesn't make it any less true.

That being said... I find that the album has interesting moments, but as a whole it's not very organic at all.  Rather more episodic.  It's almost entirely riff-based -- whether acoustic or no -- and those riffs exist in musical periods that transition one to the next with very little over-arching connection.  Not to mention that by the latter half of the album, they start to sound ho hum and repetitive.

Now, this is not to say that I blanketly don't like it... it's just simply what is going on in the music.  And there are no doubt some brilliant moments:  prologue into April Etheral, for instance, is a fantastic way to open an album.  Segments in the latter portions of tracks 3 and 6.  And, in my opinion, the high point (musically) of the album is track 6 into 7 and the duration of track seven.  It's just delovely.

But, taken as a whole, I don't find it to be earth-shatteringly original or compelling... at least not any moreso than other pop albums.  However, that doesn't keep me from enjoying the experience of listening to it.

And now, since you've been kind enough to let me expound on one of your favorite albums... I shall return in kind.  In my opinion, one of the most stand out albums in several years is Sigur Ros's ( ).  And I'm curious to know what you'd think of it.  I'm wondering if your aesthetics are broad enough to include musics beyond the progressive/metal genre you seem to clearly favor.

And let me add in closing that I see nothing wrong with favoring that genre.  My current boyfriend is a complete black/death/progressive/metal freak.  I can totally appreciate it and consider myself pretty open minded about it.  But, at the end of the day, it's not what I'll be putting on to relax with at night.

Kamala
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59 posted 05-29-2003 05:02 PM       View Profile for Kamala   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kamala

~ Mr. Lysloff needs some shock treatment. If there is one particular genre of music that Mozart would be similiar to if he were alive today, it would most likely be progressive rock/metal - certainly not Ricky Martin or Beck.

You're so funny!!!  no way in hell.  mozart was much to mainstream and conventional for that.  if any classical composers were going to be progressive rock/metal people... i would put my votes on Gesualdo, Crumb, possibly Wagner, and some other guys back in there somewhere.
Opeth
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60 posted 05-29-2003 05:51 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"I mean, firstly, it is undeniably Black Metal.  And mikey saying it isn't is a lot like Debussy hating the word "Impressionist."  Doesn't make it any less true."

~ You say that as if it is an absolute fact, when in fact it is merely your opinion. I would, and justly so, opine that Opeth is progressive metal with elements of black, death, and even pop-rock.

I believe Mike knows more than us "laymen" what genre his own music fits.

~ As for your "review" of MAYH, you gave me not one specific moment(s) of one specific song from that cd.

...which could lead me to believe that if you really care, you need to give it many more spins.

Example ~ I purchased Tool's Lateralus when it first came out...spinned it quite a few times, but it did nothing for me and I found it rather bland and boring...but over 1.5 years or so later, I gave it yet another spin and WHAM! I got it!  It is now one of my favorite cds.

If Opeth and Spears are so similiar, as you say, how come Ms. Spears music, when listened to by the masses, is easily "gotten" yet the majority of those same masses would listen to Opeth and not "get it?"

If they are so similiar, would not the same audience get them both equally?


Opeth
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61 posted 05-29-2003 06:13 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"I shall return in kind.  In my opinion, one of the most stand out albums in several years is Sigur Ros's ( ).  And I'm curious to know what you'd think of it.  I'm wondering if your aesthetics are broad enough to include musics beyond the progressive/metal genre you seem to clearly favor."

~ I also enjoy Classical, jazz, old Motown, some opera, and 70's rock music.

You give me a specific review of Opeth's My Arms, Your Hearse (which should take many spins), and I will see if I can my hands on a copy of your recommended cd and do the same.

Opeth
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62 posted 05-30-2003 07:59 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Kamala,

So far, I got to listen to clips of all 8 tracks of that Sigur Ros cd, I am trying to find a website where I can download at least one or two tracks in order to listen to them in their entirity.  I won't purchase a cd unless I think I am going to like it.

I did get to download a song titled Syndir Guds (live version) and enjoyed it.

So far, and this is a very limited review, (a full review of any worthy group would take numerous listenings), I would have to say this about Sigur Ros.

1. Slow tempo, repetitive and melodic ~ reminds me of Agalloch in that sense.

2. The female singer has a great voice.

3. Nothing great, but I can see how the melodies can become mesmerizing.

4. I find no virtusosity in their musicianship. That is not a bad thing, it is just what I hear.

Maybe we should start our own thread
Bonfirelight
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63 posted 06-23-2003 06:51 AM       View Profile for Bonfirelight   Email Bonfirelight   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bonfirelight

JP - If no-one has told you already, the song with the whistling is from Monty Pythons 'Life of Brian' and is called 'always look on the bright side of life'

As far as the state of music, for what a newbies opinion is worth, all people obviously have different tastes.
And we all see different greatness in those things we deem as great. Poetry itself is an example, i'm not a big fan of, say, clever word usage. Why say 'i anticipate the requirement of high velocity' when it can sound so much better.

Other will say i'm a philistine. you say tomato.

[This message has been edited by Bonfirelight (06-23-2003 06:52 AM).]

Ringo
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64 posted 06-23-2003 12:01 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

"So, I think there is some truth to the argument that when the masses make something popular, it's for a reason."

At the risk of really getting slammed, I have to contend that "the masses" don't decide what popular music is. They haven't actually done so since the 70's when the bean counters took over the music industry. The American public (as far as "pop culture, and music is concerned) doesn't have the patience or the desire to discover for themselves what it is they want to hear. The recording industry discovers what it is that they feel will make the most money and they forece feed it to the radio stations, and by remote, the masses. Then they spend millions of dollars in advertising to ensure that "the masses" fall into line with their marketing plan. By doing this, they are not allowing truly talented artists such as Dream Theater, Symphony X, Iced Earth, etc.
Yes, I am the proud owner of 4 failed recording contracts, however, that has absolutely nothing to do with my premise. I offer as proof the following:
Groups like Iron Maiden, Styx, REO, Boston, James Taylor, And many others will sell out arenas everywhere they go, yet ALL of them have released a new album within the last year (Ok, OK... Maiden's last new album was 3 years ago), yet have very minimal airplay. The "powers" have decided that "the masses" do not wish to hear them. Gee.. is that why Iron Maiden is on tour now and selling out 18,000-30,000 seat arenas here in the US?? Is that why Maiden's last album went platinum with very little airplay, and Styx' latest went gold plus with NO airplay? Boston is on tour around PA this week, and their last album got only 1 single released, and no real promotion... yet it went gold plus, and they are selling out the same arenas that The White Stripes, Blink 182, Sum 41, and the other "newest, greatest" CAN'T without being on a festival tour??
The same thing goes for Poison. They continually have the largest selling tour every year, absent Ozzfest, and their last album was not given any real airplay.
Obviously, there is something that the recording industry isn't paying attention to, and that is "the masses". They find the "next big thing" give them one album to go platinum, and then drop them if they don't. They don't give the bands a chance to build the following like they used to do when the industry was led by musicians.
One last example of the "bean counters" taking over the industry. Hootie and the Blowfish (whom I can actually take or leave) sold 15 million copies of their debut album. Their sophomore effort sold 5 million, and was lableed a failure.
Anyways, enough of my rambling.

Once in a dream, far beyond these castle walls...

Jamie
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65 posted 06-23-2003 05:06 PM       View Profile for Jamie   Email Jamie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Jamie's Home Page   View IP for Jamie

I can't believe anyone could discuss Delerium
without mentioning the songs Twilight and Wisdom (with Kristy Thirsk )-- fyi-- their new cd "Chimera" is set to be released tomorrow ( june 24th )- it has songs featuring leigh nash (of sixpence), Jakl (of Lunik) a couple more with Kristy Thirsk and quite a few others.

Looking forward to getting it.
  
   J










There is society where none intrudes, by the deep sea, and music in its roar.
byron


[This message has been edited by Jamie (06-23-2003 05:07 PM).]

Wind
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66 posted 06-25-2003 02:59 PM       View Profile for Wind   Email Wind   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Wind

My favorite music? Note the signature. I'm insane.
I like rock, alternative rock and SOME pop. Songs like "would you be my girlfriend" don't cut it in my world.                


Didn't you hear? What's popular is what the population likes. So far as I'm concerned, there's still plenty of us who still enjoy good music. Last week, I wen't to the party, and someone asked "who likes the beetles?" everyone raised their hands, and someone shouted "the beetles Rock!" Other people find Pop music equally talented and entertaining, but I disagree. But none of us have the athority to say that one kind of music is any better than another.
I said I'm going to buy a gun and start a war,
If you can tell me something worth fighting for
-coldplay

[This message has been edited by Wind (06-25-2003 03:04 PM).]

hush
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67 posted 06-25-2003 11:45 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

I'm late to this one.

Is instant gratification such a bad thing?

For example, I get instant gratification from such songs as "Jenny from the Block" or Pink's "Just like a Pill" or, to dig back a little further, anything Snoop Dogg or, say, Baby Got Back.

Now, I think I get these songs in a way that a lot of people don't get them... but is my beaming reaction of "Oh my GAWD, this is great, it's So campy, TURN IT UP!" really all that different than that of someone who thinks it's really cool?

Either way, it's instant entertainment.

Also, without knowing much about actual music, as far as writing and complexity go, I'd say that some non-pop songs are just as easy to "get" as pop songs. Ani DiFranco's first album is full of straight-up love songs... they're straightforward, and easy to understand... to me at least. They are also instantly gratifying... but I also listen to them and still notice new things, as well.

Anyway, I have to ask, has anyone heard of Xavier Rudd? He opened for Bitch and Animal recently in Ann Arbor, and he's absolutely phenomenal... he's from Australia, and I understand that he has quite the following in Canada?

Okay, that's it for me now. I can't compete with a lot of you guys here.
Kamala
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68 posted 06-26-2003 10:29 AM       View Profile for Kamala   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kamala

Is instant gratification such a bad thing?

but is my beaming reaction of "Oh my GAWD, this is great, it's So campy, TURN IT UP!" really all that different than that of someone who thinks it's really cool?

Hush -- I can't tell you how timely it was for me to read this!  Let me explain.  My boyfriend has a serious taste for K-pop/J-pop in addition to his VAST collection of black metal/death metal/progressive.  Now, those two things would seem really NOT to go together, but he absolutely loves the Asian pop... and it's music that I have considered to be SO BAD.  Straight up saccharin.  But he'll put it on in the car and start bouncing around to it and poking fun at all the little synth licks and such, and he has a great time.  I finally asked him the other day, "do you think this music is 'good' or is it just fun?"  and his response was, "Well, it's really fun, and in a way that makes it good."  And you know?  I couldn't disagree.  It's a totally different scale for measuring the "goodness" of music, but in answer to your question... yeah, I'm starting to think that instant gratification *can* make music "good" to people.  (otherwise, i can't explain the existence of smooth jazz!)



Kamala
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