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Passions in Poetry

something here disturbs me

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Sudhir Iyer
Member Rara Avis
since 04-26-2000
Posts 7206
Mumbai, India : now in Belgium


0 posted 12-07-2001 06:46 AM       View Profile for Sudhir Iyer   Email Sudhir Iyer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Sudhir Iyer

and I need to get it out in the open...

As I remember, this place, my second home, started chiefly as a poetry and prose forum, where each of us PiPsters started posting poems and short stories, read other poems/prose articles, shared a few laughs and continued on.

The last 3-4 weeks, I have been just glancing on Today's Topics etc... and always end up feeling a bit disturbed.

The disturbing fact is that there is so much more time that people seem to spend in the chat forums than in the poetry/prose forums, particularly (teens!) in Teen Chat Forum.

For numbers, right now, there are 8 threads active for teen poetry and 70 for teen chat.

The core fact that actually disturbs me is the thought that we may be spending so much time speaking that we forget to listen - we spend so much time chatting that we don't have time to appreciate the reason that brought us together, poetry and short stories.

Just goes to show how much time is idled away in spreading "strange and completely useless information" as one topic goes...

I am not suggesting that it is not enjoyable to chat. In fact it is higly pleasing to see the boards also used as a conversational tool, but the growth of poetry is somehow curtailed if there is a slump in poetry because of increase in chat.

It is maybe true that the chat forums increases our activity on the forums, but then to me, this is at the expense of poems, particularly coming from the teens, whom we all should be supporting more and more to come up with more and more poems/stories etc.

That's all...  more later, maybe...

now, you might all hate me for this... but well, these is my personal opinion...

I shall accept your dislike like I do your adore

Thanks for listening...

Regards,
sudhir

P.S. It is however possible that I might regret this post... but that will be another lesson well-learnt.

[This message has been edited by Sudhir Iyer (edited 12-07-2001).]

Nan
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since 05-20-99
Posts 24426
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


1 posted 12-07-2001 08:39 AM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

Sudhir - I think you're stuck with 'adore'... It's pretty difficult to find fault with someone who just wants to see more good poetry, ya know?..
Sudhir Iyer
Member Rara Avis
since 04-26-2000
Posts 7206
Mumbai, India : now in Belgium


2 posted 12-07-2001 12:05 PM       View Profile for Sudhir Iyer   Email Sudhir Iyer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Sudhir Iyer

Thanks dear Nan...  

Have a great weekend, my friends...

see ya around...

Regards,
sudhir
Allan Riverwood
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3 posted 12-07-2001 07:46 PM       View Profile for Allan Riverwood   Email Allan Riverwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Allan Riverwood

YES!  I agree with you completely here, Sudhir!

You might not know me, but I was one of the most proficient members of Teen Poetries #3 and #4.  When #5 rolled around, we'd just recieved our own little talk forum.  That was all well and good, I supposed...

I was wrong.

Teen #5 is a desert.  As a result of all the chatty people running off for gossipy contentless threads in a chat forum, all the poets who were serious about writing seemed to just vanish from the face of the forums!  And I was no exception!  Teen Poetry just stank after all the talent left, and the chatty people wouldn't even come mingle with us anymore.  I left this place for a LONG time.

And when I came back, it seemed like there were a thousand people replying like wildfire in the chat forum, but nobody so much as posting in the poetry forum.  What's even sadder is the amount of newbies who came to Teen Poetry with expectations of a vast, insightful group of youth with whom to share poetry... only to find that their poem goes unreplied to, and there's nothing worth reading on the pages at all.

I don't mean to be insensitive, but most of the people who wrote the really deep, philosophical and/or structured poetry (in other words, not to be general, but the best poetry) all left when the rest of the people decided to run away and chat, which maybe they are better at?

It bothers me so much that we have been reduced to nothing but a silly chat forum... we were once so much more than that.

Thanks for bringing this up.  I wanted to a few days ago, and almost did, but you beat me to it I suppose.

And what's more, thanks for showing me I'm not alone in my opinions.  

~Allan

"I know it's nice to be known - It caresses your ego - but the society cost is terrible."
~Vangelis

Janet Marie
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since 01-22-2000
Posts 18986


4 posted 12-08-2001 12:24 AM       View Profile for Janet Marie   Email Janet Marie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Janet Marie

Sudhir and Allen raise some really good points and questions here....and Sud? who could hate you sweets   There should be no fear of speaking your mind...you did it with the respect that Ron has built this place on....we can all feel comfortable raising a point or agreeing to disagree as long as we respond to one another with respect.
I am glad Allen could come in an offer those of us not from the teen forum, his insight and personal experience. And I think we need to make sure we realize you weren't just talking about the teen forum, but using it as an example.
Personally I know I take the poetry aspect perhaps too seriously ... some do, some dont... but that's the beauty of here...we have so many forums to find a place where we can express ourselves...and I think that's one of Ron goals. But I, like you, would like to see the poetry stay the focus and this place be somewhere that new poets can come and have their work responded to and be able to learn all that I have been blessed with in my time here.  It makes me sad to think poets came in and found little or no replies to their work, and lost interest, as that is an opportunity to learn lost. And the reality of this place is run on replies and feedback.
I think all of Pips is suffering growing pains...there is so much to read now most of us feel overwhelmed and cant keep up. I wish we could spend more time on the replies so that the poet can learn by seeing their work thru our eyes. And I would like to see more poets trying prose writing too, that forum is so slow sometimes and again that's a forum that will require more time to read the longer postings. I just hope we dont get too rushed in here since there is so much to read ... maybe we can focus on quality not quanity and we have to remember each of us have different amounts of time we can commit to being here. But on the bright side...the long time members here tell me most things cycle around in their own time and the rest works itself out. Well thats my two cents and since I been up since 5 am Im not sure it makes any sense.    
later-poetry-gators  
jm
Sunshine
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Listening to every heart


5 posted 12-08-2001 07:04 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine


Perhaps when everyone has chatted themselves out, talked the talk, and they're sitting around thinking about what to do, possibly, just....possibly....someone will say, "hey, do you want to see a poem I've been working on...?" and someone else will say, "Yes! Post it in Teen/Open/Dark/Spiritual/Corner Pub!!" and we will see a resurgence of poetry flooding the forums....

everything goes in cycles and circles....

I'm glad your home, Sudhir!
Jenn Cirrincione
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6 posted 12-08-2001 10:56 AM       View Profile for Jenn Cirrincione   Email Jenn Cirrincione   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jenn Cirrincione

Ooh ok. Not to be rude or anything, this is mainly for Allan's comment.I think that it is unfair that sometimes being chatty in a forum takes away from the time spent writing and replying to poetry. But I've been in there recently, and most people write against guidelines and are deleted, OR they just write funny phrases and cutesy things that aren't REALLY poems, but more like anecdotes or repetitive songs. Now I know that is not everyone, but that is mainly what happens there a lot now. And I find it tough to reply in there all that much. As far as being social in chat; we ALWAYS did that. Only we did it in the teen poetry forums. That's why it was created I do believe. Let us not forget the "snowball/snowfight" thread which brought us all closer. We need that closeness to get to know the ppl we are reading. So our replies(when we do give them) are appreciated and more personal. If it weren't for chat, Allan, you and I would've never really talked. Same with me and Jason, and me and Acire, and me and Lizzy and so on.... it serves a darn good purpose and makes new members feel more at ease coming in and writing. It's called being "social".

Oh and these comments:~I don't mean to be insensitive, but most of the people who wrote the really deep, philosophical and/or structured poetry (in other words, not to be general, but the best poetry) all left when the rest of the people decided to run away and chat, which maybe they are better at?~

Well you know what? You're right Allan, I'm so much better at chatting than writing. So is Lizzy, and Acire, and Spice(Jesa) and Cherish. We ARE better at being talkers!! Why did we even TRY to be writers?! Man, you seriously just helped to figure us all out in that one wonderfully rude, generalized comment. Thank you!

As to the original topic, like I said before, I agree some newbies go straight to chat and only post and never reply. It happens. And some of us old ones seem to do the same. However, most of us still make time to read teen and open etc... sometimes we just don't reply all that often. If we didn't read it? Well, then how would Jeff, Nikki, and myself have ever known about Marge's challenge? We had to be reading. Just my two cents on this.

"I want love on my own terms; after everything I've ever learned. Me, I carry too much baggage..."

anonymousfemale
Member Ascendant
since 02-02-2000
Posts 6304
Limbo


7 posted 12-08-2001 11:11 AM       View Profile for anonymousfemale   Email anonymousfemale   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for anonymousfemale

Jenn has managed to summarise everything I was feeling about Allan's comments. While yes, some parts of teen 5 become neglected; there are good reasons for it too. It's called the Passionate Plummet. If they don't reply or contribute like we all did, they don't get the replies. This wakes them up to the reality of, "Hey, maybe if we reply, they'll reply to us!"

"It bothers me so much that we have been reduced to nothing but a silly chat forum... we were once so much more than that."

As this is your personal opinion you can think what you like but so many of us DON'T think that and comments like those stemming from your argument are down right unsettling. It is unfortunate that such a 'proficient' member like yourself couldn't have seen Teen Chat for what it is. That place, like Jenn has already said, has brought a lot of us together! Teen Chat opened my eyes up to members I probably wouldn't have noticed anywhere else. While some had already been spotted in the poetry area, the chat reinforced that there actually were people behind the words. PIP is about expressing yourself and coming together as a community. Teen Chat is a community for us. If you feel it to be nothing more than a "silly chat forum" perhaps you should look at why you keep coming back?

A lot of us read in teen but we don't reply. The simple element of time comes into play. Those that have that spare second of time in their lives don't want to be tied down 24/7 to replying. A little bit is better than none.  

Thanks.

Why does Sea World have a seafood restaurant? I'm halfway through my fish burger and I realize, Oh my gosh....I could be eating a slow learner.


Justbleu
Member Elite
since 08-31-99
Posts 3430
Oregon, Originally From Alaska


8 posted 12-08-2001 01:20 PM       View Profile for Justbleu   Email Justbleu   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Justbleu's Home Page   View IP for Justbleu

I agree with you Sudhir very much.  But, I wanted to point something out that you may not of thought about.  This is a great place that keeps teens out of adult forums elsewhere on the web...which in my eyes is a great thing.  Anywayz, just a thought!!!

Bridgette  
Allan Riverwood
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9 posted 12-08-2001 01:21 PM       View Profile for Allan Riverwood   Email Allan Riverwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Allan Riverwood

Anon - Precisely.

We just don't have time to show a response to someone else's work, when we're reading 270 reply long threads in Teen Chat, and trying to think of something clever to say.

There's just no time for poetry anymore... I mean, a thousand people could read someone's poem, but if you don't reply to it then how do they know what you thought of it?  How do they grow as a poet if everyone just reads and never responds?

If you're putting so much time into chit-chat like I see in the Teen Chat forum (and don't delude yourself - it's very idle and pointless, for the most part), we don't have time to write OR read poetry because of all of this.  And I don't mean a decline in replies only, but posts as well.  Most of the poets in Teen Chat don't post poetry nearly as often as they used to.

Like Sudhir said - "It is maybe true that the chat forums increases our activity on the forums, but then to me, this is at the expense of poems, particularly coming from the teens, whom we all should be supporting more and more to come up with more and more poems/stories etc."

And I agree with him... especially teens who have only just begun writing, are being utterly halted by the fact that nobody responds to their poetry.  New members come and find a place where all the poets who were there for the poetry ONLY, and weren't interested in a huge chat land, have already left.  What remains is whatever time the Teen Chat people decide is worth putting back into the Teen Poetry forum.  And that really, REALLY bothers me.

[This message has been edited by Allan Riverwood (edited 12-08-2001).]

Allan Riverwood
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10 posted 12-08-2001 01:24 PM       View Profile for Allan Riverwood   Email Allan Riverwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Allan Riverwood

Oh and Anon, about how I "keep coming back?"

I'm sure you've had more "leaving forever" threads than I have.
Alicat
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since 05-23-99
Posts 4277
Coastal Texas


11 posted 12-08-2001 03:07 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Very good topic, Sudsy, and I agree with you. And though I don't think anyone has crossed this line yet, allow me to remind all respondees that personal attacks will not be tolerated. Remember, it's ok to agree to disagree. I just ask that you be polite about it.

Alicat
Alley/Lounge Mod
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


12 posted 12-08-2001 03:11 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

smiling...does all of this prove Sudhir's point? I KNOW, I know, I'm supposed to "going" as well but I have about 24 hours left of free service and hate to see it go to waste...

I can see both sides tho, sometimes, when I have writer's block? I just like to vanish into discussion forums....and I learn much there too. But also, I appreciate the "hard critique" that I get from people such as Allan, (and Kamla and Philip of one "l" both of whom I miss dearly) I also enjoy the sweet responses of those who just take the time to let me know that they have read my stuff... I guess I'm just saying there's a place for every mood here.

For me, Passions has been like having a friend on call, 24-7... Thanks all, and I hope I get moved into my new home soon so I can return the favor of replies to ALL...



P.S. I KNOW---How can ya'll miss me when I won't go away? rofl...

Midnitesun
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13 posted 12-08-2001 04:42 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

I guess I must have missed a great deal, as I never spend time in chat, rarely ever having sufficient time to read all the wonderful poetry. I am sorry that I don't spend time in Teen forum. I have an active teenager here at home, and we time share this keyboard daily. For my two cents worth, I understand what Sudhir writes, yet also see the benefit of anything that will help keep people connected in conversation, even conversations that may seem "pointless" to others, must indeed be serving a purpose to those who participate. Constant chatting seems to be a vital part of growing up, maybe even more now than it was when I was a teen. For myself? I usually devote my time to the poetry. But that is me.
Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


14 posted 12-08-2001 04:52 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Anonymousfemale said:

"PIP is about expressing yourself and coming together as a community"

Really? That's all?

What about self-transformation and creativity?

When you emphasize mere self-expression and community, you do three things:

1. Self-expression limits the ability to be retrospective. You write what you feel or think without considering why you feel or think, without considering how you feel or think. You deemphasize the 'how' and the 'why' for the 'what'.

--I can do anything I want means you focus on the easy and the immediate.

2. An emphasis on community means an emphasis on the general. You have to find the common point so you stay away from anything controversial, anything that might provoke disagreement.

--Peer pressure

3. This creates the tyranny of frivolity. The pressure to conform combined with a need to write 'yourself', to contribute, within that context inevitably leads to one avenue: the trite, the comical, the silly, the tivial.

Nothing wrong with that except its overwhelming dominance leads to the exclusion of anything else.  

What's wrong with diversity?

Brad
Allan Riverwood
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15 posted 12-08-2001 05:27 PM       View Profile for Allan Riverwood   Email Allan Riverwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Allan Riverwood

Along with what Brad's saying...

Diversity is fine, but when we consider the purpose of this forum, the theme of passions in poetry, it is poetry.  There are a million places to just chat on the internet, and these forums are, in a way, one of them.  

However, we have to look at the purpose of this site as a whole.  The original purpose, as Sudhir said, was to share poetry with one another.  I understand the importance of discussion and spoken exchange of ideas, in the form of chat... but when it starts to take away from the poetry, and not even be about poetry anymore, I wonder why it's on a site that's created for that purpose?  

As I said, there are very many places where normal, vague and abstract chat takes place.  Yet, there are very few places of such vast population that focus themselves on sharing and discussing poetry.  

When normal chat was introduced to the Teen forums, it over-ruled the poetry because it gave us something easier to do, something more universal.

Now Brad, I agree that diversity is important, but it's almost impossible to achieve when one option is more desirable.  And as you said, people tend to go with what's popular.  Because more people prefer chatting than writing poetry, there's just no need to post poetry anymore, right?

I personally don't think we need a Teen Chat forum on this site at all... that's taking a group of people who are still in the experimental, learning stage of their writing... and stunting their growth.  In my opinion, if you want to chat, we don't need any more places on the internet that permit us to do so.

That's just my few cents.
Temptress
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16 posted 12-08-2001 09:06 PM       View Profile for Temptress   Email Temptress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Temptress

I have just a few things to say here.

If I didn't get to be chatty with all you wunnderful Passionate People, the sometimes my inspiration would suffer.   Thought leads to conversation. Conversation stimulates more thoughts. Thoughts and everything life or death related can be used as inspiration for poetry, prose, stories, etc.

I'm not saying I use the discussion forums here as the sole inspiration for my poetry, but often enough I am inspired by something someone has said or written in one of the chat forums here.  

Also, I participated in writer's chat regularly for a long time, and there were a lot of accomplished writers...and writers who were moving along very seriously in their poetry. The place was named as the place we came to hang out, relax, have fun. Even writers need to have fun, and sometimes it helps when that fun is among the people who share the same passion.

I hope I've made some sense here.  

*Jenn*

Your storm of assumption feeds anger I am calm enough to hold inside. Don't pretend to know me if you've never put stretched out your heart with since

Alwye
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17 posted 12-08-2001 10:58 PM       View Profile for Alwye   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alwye

I think that it's all a matter of balance, as is most things in life.  I think that Allan is right in the fact that many people are spending so much time in chat forums that they're missing out on poetry.  How can we possibly learn and grow and perfect our art if we don't read and write and respond?  But I also believe, as Temptress said, that conversation can stimulate our creative juices. But if we do not take what we've learned from those conversations and flow with the idea, have we really accomplished anything?  In my opinion, no. What is the point of conversation at a place like this if we aren't learning new things about others, about ourself, and about the world?  Sure, I like to have fun and chat just as much as the next person, but I think many people find it too easy to get lost in that world and forget about what really brought us together in the first place:  Our love for the written word.  I think chat is fine as long as it can be balanced out with a good healthy dose of reading and writing.     Just my couple cents.  

*Krista Knutson*

"An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." -Gandhi

Allan Riverwood
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18 posted 12-08-2001 11:15 PM       View Profile for Allan Riverwood   Email Allan Riverwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Allan Riverwood

Krista, you're right... 100% right.  Chat is fine as long as it's used in our writing, as long as we don't let it over-rule us.

The problem is that it seems to be doing just that.  Not everyone is capable of creating a personal balance between the two, for one reason or another.  Perhaps we are best served when we do one thing above the others... after all, what we're doing right now is discussion.

Chat forums can be a good thing if we use them moderately... Acire started a thread in Teen Chat that should help this little problem fix itself.  Kudos to him...
Acies
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19 posted 12-08-2001 11:33 PM       View Profile for Acies   Email Acies   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Acies

first of all.......

We have to note that when "Today's Topics" was checked, it was at 630am.  At that time I do expect teen chat to be more active than teen poetry.  I do believe that teen poetry does have more active threads when the day is done.  I too have been monitoring the teen chat and teen poetry forums and have noticed this.  If things are checked at the end of the day, I do believe the situation is in reverse.  

As of the original purpose of PIP, yes that might be it.  But we also have to take into consideration that PIP has grown not only to be a poetry site.  Don't you think the poetry, chat or whatever purpose of PIP issue was debated on when the "Teen Chat" forum was decided to be added?

At the same time, I do believe that Passions has a different hold or effect on each and every person.  Whatever it is, I think it's going to be different on each and I do respect that.  It could be as simple as a getaway from reality to as diverse as the things that have been pointed out.

l o est mon amour?
donde est mi amour?
wo ist meine Liebe?

[This message has been edited by acire (edited 12-08-2001).]

anonymousfemale
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Limbo


20 posted 12-09-2001 02:08 AM       View Profile for anonymousfemale   Email anonymousfemale   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for anonymousfemale

One leaving thread, one leaving piece.
Mind you, pointing out the reasons for doing so would only "drain pity" out of people, wouldn't it?

"When I eat I feel. It is better if I don't feel, I am too afraid." - Ellen West

Allan Riverwood
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21 posted 12-09-2001 02:19 AM       View Profile for Allan Riverwood   Email Allan Riverwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Allan Riverwood

Let's stay on topic.

Want to take this out with me again?  Send me an email.

We don't need an audience.

[This message has been edited by Allan Riverwood (edited 12-09-2001).]

Sudhir Iyer
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since 04-26-2000
Posts 7206
Mumbai, India : now in Belgium


22 posted 12-10-2001 11:28 AM       View Profile for Sudhir Iyer   Email Sudhir Iyer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Sudhir Iyer

Well, my friends....

Whatever it is that happened in the weekend, I am glad that I saw lots of more active posts in Teen Poetry forum around the same time as I did my earlier check, around lunch-time here in Europe (there were somewhere between 16 to 20 active posts in the poetry and about 2 to 4 in the chat forum). In fact, I even posted one of my own scibbles.

I am glad that the issue has been recognised to a certain degree and addressed. I thank you all.

Please let it be known that, I am not against any chat forums. In fact, I am very pleased that they are a very effective and important part of this place, one that I call as my home away from home. I am a firm believer in the art of conversation too.

All I wished was some introspection on each of our parts to see what we really come here for, to read and enjoy poetry, to read and enjoy stories, and also to read and enjoy news/gossips/personal facts/etc. that other pipsters wish to share. Each of this has its own relevance.

We couldn't possibly call this place Passions in Poetry/Prose if there was a drastic reduction in appreciation of reading and writing poetry, particularly with the fresh young lights, some of whom would become great poets and shall say, I started posting my poetry at PiP. That would really make me proud, wouldn't it?

I mean, the matter had to be put in perspective.

All I have is a request... don't deny yourselves the opportunity to read such fantastic poetry when you can, while you can, and also don't deny yourselves from writing poetry, however bad (you think) it is. (To me, poetry being good or bad is a completely different debate, and I can't be a judge to that)

I am also sure that there were certain debates as to what should be the new form of the Forums, etc.

You guys are all wonderful people out there, and my opinion about that shall never change.

Regards to all,
Sudhir
P.S. to my dear moderator friend, I am really sorry if this topic came up with some acrimonious posts. I hope after all that is said and done, you might want to lock this thread.  
P.P.S. I talk too much, too...  
 
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