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Why was poem moved to Adult Forum?????

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Interloper
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Rara Avis
since 11-06-2000
Posts 8628
Deep in the heart


0 posted 11-02-2001 10:04 AM       View Profile for Interloper   Email Interloper   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Interloper


Why was one of my response to the challenge series moved to the Adult Forum?

Why was I not give the opportunity to edit it if it offended some...one???

This is totally unacceptable!

This is ... objectionable!

Your rules state:

"Sensationalistic Sex and Violence

I'm not even going to try to define the word "sensationalistic," but rather will hope everyone has an intuitive understanding of where the lines must be drawn. We encourage - strongly - the exploration of all aspect of life, but will not tolerate poetry or prose written more for shock value than for real discovery or revelation. Realism is good. Titillation is not.

I'm not going to tell you how to write, but will remind everyone that graphic descriptions are rarely necessary to make a point. Indeed, such descriptions will usually detract from your real theme. If you have a poem or story you feel may be borderline, you are encouraged to contact a Moderator and ask them to read it prior to posting.

The Adults Only forum, of course, is a suitable venue for poetry and stories dealing with erotica. "

Please show me the "sensationalistic" part?  

Where is it not real?  

Where is it written for shock value?

Where is it graphic?

I know of more than one moderator that had no problem with the piece.

[This message has been edited by Interloper (edited 11-02-2001).]

Ron
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Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


1 posted 11-02-2001 04:30 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Why was one of my response to the challenge series moved to the Adult Forum?

Uh, because it was Adult?

Why was I not give the opportunity to edit it if it offended some...one???

Your email to one of our Moderators, likewise, argued you should have been warned and given the opportunity to correct the post. If you go a few miles too fast, the police "might" give you a warning. But if you blatantly disregard the rules, the police probably will figure those little signs along the road, with the posted speed limit, was warning enough.

You had every opportunity to edit it before it was posted, and you have all the opportunity you want to edit it now. But we're not talking about an inappropriate line or reference, we're talking about an Adult theme. That's a rewrite, not an edit.

Please show me the "sensationalistic" part?  

Where is it not real?  

Where is it written for shock value?

Where is it graphic?

I know of more than one moderator that had no problem with the piece.


Many of your questions or observations are largely irrelevant to the discussion. It doesn't matter how "real" the poem was or wasn't, nor does it matter how many people had no problem with it. As to your remaining questions, yes, of course it was sensationalistic and graphic. But those terms are subjective and fall along an infinite gradation. I didn't try to define them in the Guidelines, and I don't intend to argue where on that scale this particular poem fell. Such debate would quickly force this thread into Adult as well and, in any event, would be fruitless.

So, instead, let's try focusing on something less subjective.

The theme of your poem was clearly about sex and the actions of sex. You use words like "offended" and "offensive" in your complaint, and those terms pretty much miss the boat. There is nothing offensive about sex, and your poem wasn't moved to Adult because it was offensive. It was moved because the poem, like sex, is inappropriate in many venues. Would you feel comfortable reading and discussing your poem at an assembly of adolescents and pre-teens? More importantly, would you want your children at that assembly if a stranger was presenting it? Parents have a right to decide when and how their children will be exposed to the intimacies of adult life. If Open Poetry is to remain open to the whole family then poetry with blatant sexual overtones must find another home. That's the whole reason the Adult forum exists - for Adult oriented themes. There's nothing offensive in Adult, because offensive posts are deleted.

I'm not going to pretend that this "less subjective" viewpoint isn't still very subjective. Because it is. Our Moderators walk a fine line every day, often making difficult decisions. Is this a poem about Love, with sensual metaphors? Or is it about sex, with only a passing reference to love? Is it just "phone sex" without the phone? When does sensual become sexual? Does a poem realistically explore the repercussions of sex along with its more obvious delights? These are often tough questions, with no easy answers, and our volunteer staff simply does the best they can. We appreciate everyone's support, and hope most will respect the decisions even when they disagree with them. Many of the determinations are borderline and anyone, of course, is free to disagree - as long as they do so agreeably.

Frankly, Interloper, your poem was not in the least bit borderline and your disagreements have been much less than agreeable. In your email you used words like "sick," "fascistic," and "un-American." In your post above, you call it "totally unacceptable." It's not entirely clear whether you object to the fact that we have rules, to this particular judgement based on those rules, or to our request that you should follow them like everyone else.

If your objection is either of the latter two, it has been duly noted. You now have the option of accepting the decision and modifying your posts accordingly. Or not.

If your objection is to the existence of rules, then you really have no option but to find a venue other than Passions. Freedom without responsibility is just another term for anarchy, and you'll find many more suitable places on the Internet than these forums. I can probably even direct you to a few, because those places and their lack of restraint were the very reason these forums were founded. That they still exist, unimpeded, is a testament to Freedom. That we don't have to follow along the same path is also a testament to that Freedom.

If the tone of my response seems harsh, blame it on your earlier email and subsequent posts. We generally handle such infractions privately, and that has very little to do with the "intestinal fortitude" cited in your letter, but rather with dignity. We correct situations privately, because we know everyone makes mistakes. (Though we often reverse those corrections publicly, because we know our Moderators also make mistakes.) You, however, find that "cowardly."

So, let me tell you the bottom line, right here in public, Interloper.

The decision as to how you will fit into these forums is still up to you. We can still agree to disagree and move forward. But if you ever again email a Moderator or Member with the same hostile tone as your last letter, that decision will be made for you.
 
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