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Passions in Poetry

i don't get it...

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Alicat
Member Elite
since 05-23-99
Posts 4277
Coastal Texas


75 posted 07-13-2001 02:09 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

That it did, Hush, but that is the nature of the Alley. It's OK to bring personal feelings here, just don't get bent if others disagree...again, that's the nature of the Alley. It's a place where vents, rants, and the like have a place to breathe, and be heard, and I'm very pleased that you took advantage of this forum. And if this thread, knowing the emotional side issues that would arise, didn't have any emotional issues, I'd be almost inclined to move it to Philosophy or Q/A.  

But those places are, more or less, respectable venues of thought, while the Alley is a down and dirty place to be...but as with screamin in an alley, don't get too upset if someone pours dishwater on ya from above. LOL

[This message has been edited by Alicat (edited 07-13-2001).]

Nan
Administrator
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since 05-20-99
Posts 24426
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


76 posted 07-13-2001 02:14 PM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

Excedrin


For you non-Americans... is a super-duper-headache-remover
type ASPIRIN...
Poeminister
Senior Member
since 02-26-2000
Posts 1868
Regina SK; Canada


77 posted 07-13-2001 02:38 PM       View Profile for Poeminister   Email Poeminister   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Poeminister's Home Page   View IP for Poeminister

What else should the numbers be called than just for fun--they are just there, and create a moment to show a celebration to one for their contribution in the forums.  Whether some are playing rush, doesn't matter--because we will all be judged based on depth of our poetries, our respects, and comments in these forums, overall--won't we?? And thats why the numbers are important still, in my opinon.  Its part of the overall responsiveness at this site, the warmth and ability to celebrate and have fun at the same time--unlike some other poetry sites, that are just strictly workshops, where people can so tend to be cold.  Does this give some people more attention then others who are as worthy but have less posts?  Yes.  In the announcements and Links.  But it shouldn't be taken seriously.  They are just for Fun.  
Aren't they?


[This message has been edited by Poeminister (edited 07-13-2001).]

Titia Geertman
Member Ascendant
since 05-07-2001
Posts 5297
Netherlands


78 posted 07-13-2001 03:32 PM       View Profile for Titia Geertman   Email Titia Geertman   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Titia Geertman's Home Page   View IP for Titia Geertman

Excedrin an Aspirin?



Oh Oh, I really messed up back there, didn't I  . Who on earth would have thought of Excedrin being an Aspirin  . Thank you Nan for letting us, the foreigners, know.

Titia  

A rose is a rose is a rose...I guess...
Feel free to use the pictures on my website. http://communities.msn.com/Titiasplace&naventryid=100

Alicat
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since 05-23-99
Posts 4277
Coastal Texas


79 posted 07-13-2001 03:59 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

It's a brand name, Titia...acetylsalicylic acid, aka aspirin (Bayer, Excederin, BC Powder, etc). Then there's acetaminophen, which is your non-aspirin pain reliever, like Tylenol.
Jamie
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since 06-26-2000
Posts 3219
Blue Heaven


80 posted 07-13-2001 05:30 PM       View Profile for Jamie   Email Jamie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Jamie's Home Page   View IP for Jamie

...and of course for those really tough headaches there is morphine  

There is society where none intrudes, by the deep sea, and music in its roar.
byron

Nan
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since 05-20-99
Posts 24426
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


81 posted 07-13-2001 07:24 PM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

UM... My mom says don't listen to Jamie... She just had two major surgeries within two weeks of each other - both with morphine kickers... She was hallucinatory for a full week withdrawing from the second one...  Though she does admit to having NO headaches that she can recall...
Ron
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Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


82 posted 07-13-2001 07:52 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

It's a bit of a shame that earnest discussions have to be derailed by off-topic fun, guys. We closed the Alley and moved the frivolity to the Lounge so that serious topics could be taken seriously. There is a time and a place for fun, but interruptions too easily become disruptions and that's neither fun nor fair.

Please stay on-topic.
Dusk Treader
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since 06-18-99
Posts 1231
St. Paul, MN


83 posted 07-13-2001 09:30 PM       View Profile for Dusk Treader   Email Dusk Treader   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Dusk Treader

What a gritty topic this has become. I've never added my thoughts to a thread such as this, but I've always liked to watch a debate (I respect Brad, Jim and the Philosophy 101 crew greatly).

Hush seems a little rough, but not out to hurt anyone. Let me say that I respect you now too for bringing up this topic. Not because I think you're right (or wrong). I thought it was one of the most thoughtful threads I've seen out of the Philosophy or Poetry/Prose forum.

I'm surprised how Hush was accused of attacking people because of her word choices. "Frivolous," "ludicrosity" and "such a waste of time" were all words/phrases that Hush used to describe an act. Not the people committing the act. I think watching football is stupid. I'm not saying people who watch football are stupid. Is it really possible to use completely inoffensive words to describe Hush's viewpoint, his feeling of why the announcements aren't beneficial? We are each entitled to our own feelings, like Hush, but it is up to us to validate those feelings with logic or reason if they are to be accepted.

I'm sorry to see people have been hurt during the course of this discussion, but I think Hush moved in the right direction, if possibly a little too abruptly.

I've wanted to add to one a thread such as this for quite a while, and I hope I made an intelligent reply, even though this thread seems caught in a bit of frivolous activity.

"They that start by burning books will end by burning men." -- Heinrich Heine

JLR
Senior Member
since 02-04-2001
Posts 1851


84 posted 07-14-2001 12:14 AM       View Profile for JLR   Email JLR   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JLR

Ron---Sorry for starting the disruption.  It was honestly not meant to distract from the original topic.  It was my attempt to humorously say that having just read this entire thread, I had quite a headache.  
Nan
Administrator
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Posts 24426
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


85 posted 07-14-2001 07:11 AM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

My apologies as well, my EDF... I'm probably trying too hard to cure my own headaches...
Alicat
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since 05-23-99
Posts 4277
Coastal Texas


86 posted 07-14-2001 02:39 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

My apologies as well for the frivoloty. Now for the topic at hand.

I really don't see what all the fuss is about. If I twitch my eyes to the left, I can see that I've garnered less than 2000 posts (originating and replies) in the 26 months I've been at Passions. Now, what does this mean? It could, and does, show that for over two years, I haven't really replied to much of the plethora of writings here. Also, that I'm not much of a social butterfly. However, if someone else is, should I berate them for being so social and for the love of reading new material? True, the numbers could detract from that, espousing a clique of high posters, with others striving to become exclusive members by replying as much as humanly possible, even to the point of trite replies to pack as many numbers in as short a time as possible. But this is not the norm. Instead, I see the number/ranking system as a playful and fun means of keeping track. I know that if I have a question about form or format, I'm more likely to ask someone with a higher number of posts, solely on the basis that through their many readings, they might have come across the answers I need...either that, or I ask Nan. Also, I get the feeling that someone new being welcomed by Marge, who has an amazing amount of posts and replies, would mean a bit more, based again on the sheer amount of work she has read and enjoyed. I'm not certain if the numbers reflect negatively, but I know the positive aspects.

As for Announcements...well...that's what the forum is for. Announcements. The very name says it all. Yes, it's changed from what it was originally intended for, like Feelings, but that's just the nature of a dynamic, living forum: Change. It's for html links, personal life, and forum life. There's wedding announcements, death notices, births, new pages, virus warnings, cool programs, birthdays, and pats on the back for time spent uplifting others. Any announcement, from the depressing to the banal would fit in Announcement. Just like any other thread, if you don't want to read it, don't...that's your choice.

If all this is a problem, or something one sees as either distracting or detracting, perhaps something could be done, like a member option akin to posts per page, allowing for posting numbers and titles, or not. Just a little flag to be marked as a yes or no in the Member's Area, although I'm not sure how much work this would take on Ron's part.

I, for one, like the titles. Whenever I see a new one, or someone reaching a new 'level', I can't help but smile. And Hush, that's the only thing that matters.  

“It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most
intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.”  Charles Darwin


Titia Geertman
Member Ascendant
since 05-07-2001
Posts 5297
Netherlands


87 posted 07-14-2001 07:19 PM       View Profile for Titia Geertman   Email Titia Geertman   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Titia Geertman's Home Page   View IP for Titia Geertman

Dusk Treader: I don't quite agree with you on the below quote.
____________________________________________
I think watching football is stupid. I'm not saying people who watch football are stupid.
____________________________________________

What you're saying here is that you think watching football is an act of stupidity. It implies a waste of time. Am I right?

Can you explain to me why you think that statement doesn't offend people?.

For I think it does, because you can't disconnect one from the other. It would be different if you should say: I don't like watching football, then it's just you in relation to football you're talking about. But when you say: watching football is stupid, you're saying that 'the watching' is stupid = the act, and therefore you're condemning the act being performed. As the act is being performed by people so you're condemning people and yes, some would feel offended.
Then there's the fact that written words often are hard to read. The reader misses the tone of the voice behind so he puts his own voicetone in and that may be quite a different one than the writer had ment.

For instance, I make a statement here:
"I think watching debates is stupid".

Does reading this make you not feel slightly uncomfortable, as you like to perform this act. And here I am, saying that I think it's stupid what you do (watching debates). Isn't there a bit of a 'feeling offended' popping up in your mind? Don't you feel an urge to ask me "who the hell I think I am to think I can judge your actions?".

Hush could have simply started to ask why those thankyounotes for reaching a higher level of posts were put in and what their meaning was. In that case I think the answers would have had a different tone and the debate would have started on a more friendlier base.

But the mere act was being referred to immediately as 'being stupid, waste of time' and so on. And so my neckhairs went tickling a bit, couldn't help it.

Ohh it's already late again, me babbling on and on, hope I did make some sense here.

This all was ment in a friendly way.
____________________________________________________

Alicat, that's just how I feel, your meaning is well written.
____________________________________________________

Ron, my apologies too, well to Hush probably. Wasn't ment to be rude, just habbit I guess to answer with a little humor and I really thought an Excedrin was a kind of poetic form  
Still have to learn so much about your language.

Titia



A rose is a rose is a rose...I guess...
Feel free to use the pictures on my website. [URL=http://communities.msn.com/Titiasplace=100
]http://communi


[This message has been edited by Titia Geertman (edited 07-14-2001).]

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


88 posted 07-15-2001 05:35 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Hmmmmm, seems to me that one of my points has been validated -- the one about frivolity and control.  

Take that Sven!!!

But if we take what Sven said about what I said into consideration, if I follow Titia's comments, should I be offended by Sven's comments?

Does Sven disrespect me?

I doubt it. I'm sure there are many things I've said that he finds silly, frivolous, stupid, inane, unnecessary, incomprehensible, dubious, and downright wrong.

But does he disrespect me?

I doubt it.

One act is never representative of identity as a whole. The part is not the whole if only because we all, we all make mistakes.

I don't want to spend too much time on the implications of conflating act and identity (at least for now) but, quite frankly, I find that logic dangerous.

But aren't many people saying that worrying about the numbers is stupid, that what they're doing is frivolous, and that that is, or at least should be, okay?

Isn't all that really matters, as Alicat matters, is the smile?

Shouldn't we be mature about this whole matter?

A few years back, I had two friends who eventually ended up romantically involved. We went out for coffee one time, I got up to make a phone call, and returned to see them making out. Now, I consider myself a pretty liberal guy, and immediately thought, "That's okay." However, every time we had a pause in direct conversation, they started doing it again. As liberal as I am, I found it uncomfortable, I felt excluded, uninvited, even unwanted. Did they think that way? I don't think so (they asked me to coffee, didn't they?), I think they let their obvious concerns with each other temporarily overwhelm their concerns with me (perfectly legitimate, they should care more about each other than about me.).

And it made them happy.

But was it appropriate in a coffee shop?

Was it appropriate when I was sitting across the table?

Does it matter what they felt? Their feelings were quite obvious, I assure you.

Did I want to participate? Both were very attractive, intelligent, and charming but no, I had no interest in participating.

Upon voicing my concerns, they stopped, they understood, and we had a good time after that (Honestly, they thought I was a close enough friend that it was 'okay', they later explained; they realized, of course, that that wasn't the issue, it wasn't friendship, it was feeling left out at that moment.).

That feeling and the feeling here, the feeling I tried to explain earlier, are quite similar.

I can play it superior (take it to a hotel/it's a silly game), I can play it inferior (guys, I'm still here/I'm left out), but the feeling is still the same.

Now, you know how I and others feel, it is a feeling easily repressed (I can bring a book to the table but I'm not leaving the table, that's not something I want to do, I like this table and I like the people at this table.)

I don't believe in enforcing new Blue Laws.

I just ask that others think about it. Make your own decisions from there.

Brad

PS Many, many other points have been brought up worthy of discussion (value of debates, winning and losing, act and identity, seriousness and frivolity, ritual and passivity, and others). I hope these are focused on with the same energy as this one has and perhaps will continue to be.

Thanks

[This message has been edited by Brad (edited 07-15-2001).]

doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028
Virginia


89 posted 07-17-2001 06:43 PM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri



i just wanted to let you guys know that i recently hit 5,000 posts and also had my 2 year anniversary here and i was one of the very first members here....and not even one person said a damn thing about it so i was mortally offended and cried for 3 days and now i'm going on vacation and i may never ever come back here to post!!

so there!! :P

hehe.... just kidding  *wink*

hahahahahahahahahaha
Sven
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Member Laureate
since 11-23-1999
Posts 15611
Lansing, MI USA


90 posted 07-17-2001 07:42 PM       View Profile for Sven   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Sven

touche Brad!!  

quote:
I'm sure there are many things I've said that he finds silly, frivolous, stupid, inane, unnecessary, incomprehensible, dubious, and downright wrong.


and vice versa I'm sure Brad. . .  

quote:
But does he disrespect me?


Nope, not one bit. . . I respect you very much Brad. . .I love our little discussions. . .they're what make life fun.

And I think that your example speaks volumes. . . thanks for bringing it up.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world.

Fading Away
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 03-14-2001
Posts 4302
Lynchburg, Virginia


91 posted 07-17-2001 11:40 PM       View Profile for Fading Away   Email Fading Away   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Fading Away

I know how that is, Doreen.  I hit 2,000, and no one even noticed!  Argh!

But I guess I can see where hush is coming from.  Although I disagree mostly with what you're saying... anniversaries and posts are accomplishments that deserve to be recognized.

--Marie

You think yourself a failure, but perhaps the biggest loss is winning...

Marge Tindal
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
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since 11-06-1999
Posts 43042
Florida's Foreverly Shores


92 posted 07-18-2001 12:19 AM       View Profile for Marge Tindal   Email Marge Tindal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marge Tindal's Home Page   View IP for Marge Tindal

Doreen~
quote:
i just wanted to let you guys know that i recently hit 5,000 posts and also had my 2 year anniversary here and i was one of the very first members here....and not even one person said a damn thing about it
Not true .... me did ~
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum50/HTML/000178.html#2
Me wuv you !
~*Marge*~

~*The pen of the poet never runs out of ink, as long as we breathe.*~
                                 noles1@totcon.com              

doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028
Virginia


93 posted 07-18-2001 12:39 AM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

awww geeezzzzzzzz....... .again.... yeah, marge, i saw that...  and thanks so much!!

this was all tongueincheek.... my sense of humor leaves something to be desired maybe??

lol... as long as something about me leaves something to be desired, i figure i'm doing ok... *wink*

thanks much..

and "fading away"...... do me and you a favor..... DON'T  

everyone here is very special... i love you all........
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


94 posted 07-18-2001 04:14 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

sorry...just popped in to grin...

not to be frivolous, but just as an observation, it always does seem to get back to caring. Numbers are just a means of measurement only to be given their assumed and agreed upon value, and the values determined only by the interpretor, through the bias of a strictly personal point of view. (sorry, just trying to get Brad's attention)  

Myself...I like the frivolity.. (obviously) I enjoy the silliness. I like my life cushioned with love. Scoff and call me an idealist--but I will die happier.

CONGRATULATIONS DOREEN...and forgive me, for not noticing. You are my girl, and I love you!

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


95 posted 07-23-2001 08:17 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I noticed, I noticed.  

"not to be frivolous, but just as an observation, it always does seem to get back to caring."

--I agree. But it's what we care about that seems to be avoided in many of these comments.

"Numbers are just a means of measurement"

--not always, I still believe that we all 'feel' a certain mysticism when it comes to numbers (numerology). Why so much emphasis here if it didn't contain something? Why does the media keep a running track of deaths in a natural disaster? It's almost like the score of a football game. If the numbers were just a means, why so much defending? Why so much "Hey, what about me?" phrased as trivial and humorous (for good reason)?  In a very real way, I think science actually contributes to this feeling.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone actually THINKS this is that important, I do think that most people LIKE the numbers game and don't want to change it even though they don't think it matters. In a way, they're saying it doesn't matter, don't worry about it, because it does matter (in that feeling at the horizon of thought).

Why aren't their more responses like Sharon's or Nan's? I don't care about the numbers, drop them. What about changing it to time instead of numbers posted?

Aren't people saying don't take it personally because we take it personally?

Aren't people saying don't care about it because we care about each other?

How does that address the complaint?

"only to be given their assumed and agreed upon value,"


"and the values determined only by the interpretor, through the bias of a strictly personal point of view."

--I don't understand these two comments together:

'agreed upon value'

'strictly personal point of view'

Could you elaborate it bit more?

Thanks,
Brad
BloomingRose
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since 08-09-2000
Posts 3124
Florida


96 posted 07-24-2001 06:35 PM       View Profile for BloomingRose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for BloomingRose

I could care less about numbers. I read what I can truly read, and post replies only to the poems I really enjoy or find interesting. I appreciate when others post a reply to the poetry I write, but it's certainly not my focus.
I think it's nice to be recognized, but I don't think it's the goal of most. It's the love of reading and writing, and to share with others.

Deb
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


97 posted 07-26-2001 04:42 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Nice to meet you Brad! (I wasn't ignoring you but have been away due to personal probs at home.)

I simply meant that people have to agree on the importance of the numbers--Here's a question though: Is reality a collective agreement? And if so, does this exclude numbers? Are numbers always an absolute?
I have had this discussion with Sharon...one day through some glitch, the number of replies was not showing up on my screen. Which didn't bother me, until I realized that I was unable to discern which poems had gone unread. And I do feel it important to offer encouragement. Which is the only reason I think the numbers should stay. It doesn't bother me one bit if someone is proud of their record of posts and replies. I am more proud when someone lets me know that something I have written has touched them. It makes me feel good.

And yes, I was teasing you a bit about my playful attitude and truly had no idea I was working anyone's nerves--I'm still pondering the control issue--after some thought I realized though that my habit of doing that comes from listening to my brothers and sisters fight so much. And a well timed comment can diffuse an uncomfortable situation.  And I know I didn't answer your question to your satisfaction, but I wish to think more carefully about my reply, as you still terrify me Brad.  

But thank you for taking the time--I feel a little less invisable now. Will be in touch as soon as I slap my brain around to compose my explanation.  

And as for the numbers and the titles...I also agree that participation should be encouraged and celebrated. But conversely, sometimes it shocks me to see how much time I do spend here. But hey...I've had worse habits.  

More soon. Perhaps you can be of some help to this admittedly sloppy thinker.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


98 posted 07-26-2001 06:12 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I'm terrifying?

Actually, you've glossed a lot here. Don't suppose you might throw some of this stuff out for discussion in Philosophy?

I'm terrifying?

Wish my wife knew that sometimes.

Gotta go, the wife calls,  

Brad

PS Anxiously waiting your reply here as well. Also, if possible, I'd like to know if you understand why 'the numbers issue' might be a problem.

I'm still waiting for more "I understand your feeling but . . ." not "The numbers don't matter, it's the feeling that matters. Complaining about this is silly".

See the irony?

[This message has been edited by Brad (edited 07-26-2001).]

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


99 posted 07-26-2001 07:24 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

not always, I still believe that we all 'feel' a certain mysticism when it comes to numbers (numerology). Why so much emphasis here if it didn't contain something? Why does the media keep a running track of deaths in a natural disaster? It's almost like the score of a football game. If the numbers were just a means, why so much defending? Why so much "Hey, what about me?" phrased as trivial and humorous (for good reason)?  In a very real way, I think science actually contributes to this feeling.


Would love to hear more about this one too.
and by agreed upon value, that ties into my question about reality being collectively agreed upon--and if that statement is true--are numbers an absolute that defies that?
As to this particular issue, I feel the numbers are of no consequence...simply because I know many of my post and replies are done in the spirit of FUN...which is what keeps me here at Passion.  And I don't understand why someone would worry about the quality of replies unless it is a C/A --are we to start critiquing replies as well?Sometimes it's just enough for me to know that someone read and enjoyed.

But I am enjoying this conversation...but I am tired, but would love to hear more of your thoughts on numbers in general...not just as it pertains to this issue. Particularly, I would like to hear your thoughts on numerology.

I am not a natural at debate...I am just a naturally curious person interested in PEOPLE. So...let me get some rest before my brain starts slapping me back.

And okay, you don't actually terrify me, you just make me feel dumb.  
 
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