Jejudo, South Korea
Hmmmmm, seems to me that one of my points has been validated -- the one about frivolity and control.
Take that Sven!!!
But if we take what Sven said about what I said into consideration, if I follow Titia's comments, should I be offended by Sven's comments?
Does Sven disrespect me?
I doubt it. I'm sure there are many things I've said that he finds silly, frivolous, stupid, inane, unnecessary, incomprehensible, dubious, and downright wrong.
But does he disrespect me?
I doubt it.
One act is never representative of identity as a whole. The part is not the whole if only because we all, we all make mistakes.
I don't want to spend too much time on the implications of conflating act and identity (at least for now) but, quite frankly, I find that logic dangerous.
But aren't many people saying that worrying about the numbers is stupid, that what they're doing is frivolous, and that that is, or at least should be, okay?
Isn't all that really matters, as Alicat matters, is the smile?
Shouldn't we be mature about this whole matter?
A few years back, I had two friends who eventually ended up romantically involved. We went out for coffee one time, I got up to make a phone call, and returned to see them making out. Now, I consider myself a pretty liberal guy, and immediately thought, "That's okay." However, every time we had a pause in direct conversation, they started doing it again. As liberal as I am, I found it uncomfortable, I felt excluded, uninvited, even unwanted. Did they think that way? I don't think so (they asked me to coffee, didn't they?), I think they let their obvious concerns with each other temporarily overwhelm their concerns with me (perfectly legitimate, they should care more about each other than about me.).
And it made them happy.
But was it appropriate in a coffee shop?
Was it appropriate when I was sitting across the table?
Does it matter what they felt? Their feelings were quite obvious, I assure you.
Did I want to participate? Both were very attractive, intelligent, and charming but no, I had no interest in participating.
Upon voicing my concerns, they stopped, they understood, and we had a good time after that (Honestly, they thought I was a close enough friend that it was 'okay', they later explained; they realized, of course, that that wasn't the issue, it wasn't friendship, it was feeling left out at that moment.).
That feeling and the feeling here, the feeling I tried to explain earlier, are quite similar.
I can play it superior (take it to a hotel/it's a silly game), I can play it inferior (guys, I'm still here/I'm left out), but the feeling is still the same.
Now, you know how I and others feel, it is a feeling easily repressed (I can bring a book to the table but I'm not leaving the table, that's not something I want to do, I like this table and I like the people at this table.)
I don't believe in enforcing new Blue Laws.
I just ask that others think about it. Make your own decisions from there.
PS Many, many other points have been brought up worthy of discussion (value of debates, winning and losing, act and identity, seriousness and frivolity, ritual and passivity, and others). I hope these are focused on with the same energy as this one has and perhaps will continue to be.
[This message has been edited by Brad (edited 07-15-2001).]