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Passions in Poetry

i don't get it...

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Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


50 posted 07-11-2001 09:26 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Fair enough. I simply meant considering why other members might be annoyed by the emphasis on numbers (I know, I know, it's not the numbers).

Following that, at least considering Nan's idea of duration celebration rather than a numbers celebration (I know, I know, it's not the numbers).



Brad

Poeminister
Senior Member
since 02-26-2000
Posts 1868
Regina SK; Canada


51 posted 07-11-2001 11:00 PM       View Profile for Poeminister   Email Poeminister   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Poeminister's Home Page   View IP for Poeminister

"Isn't it quality that matters over quantity?"

When we celebrate quantity it's unto the quality therein, not saying you are a good participator in a number race.  

People playing race, will get no more regard then they give, cursorily.

[This message has been edited by Poeminister (edited 07-11-2001).]

hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


52 posted 07-12-2001 12:49 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Phew. Here goes.

Ron:
'My point was that there is absolutely no difference between the three.'

but then, earlier you said:

'Of course, the analogy between special dates (which are also frequently celebrated in the forums) and number of posts is less than perfect. You can't rush Valentine's Day and it's hard to have more birthdays than your neighbor.'

There you have it. Using my logic (and yours, if you go by your earlier post) a birthday is a special occasion, because it is once a year. It is celebreating an event, and it cannot be rushed.

Kit:
Let me offer an honest thank you for noticing the hard work I (and others) put into critique. I sincerely appreciate the time you put into explaining why you think that is important.

suthern:
You're right. I shouldn't have said "GREAT JOB!" replies are insincere- really, I didn't, I think the post congratulations are, and they remind me of those posts.

'To question someone's sincerity when they've GIVEN your poem their time...'  

I agree with that too. Maybe insincerity was the wrong word? But I'm not going to get into that- as Brad said, it's a thread on its own.

Titia:
I respect the fact that people make friends using this network. I would not respect people who called me their friend, or gave me a big cyber-clap on the back, when I do not even know them. Maybe I differ from all of you in that I am selective as to who I give my affections to (especially on the internet, since I am usually busy focusing my limited time on poetry, literature, and art, not on making friends)- and to me, when people give affection freely, it's not a big step for them to take it back, especially in a setting such as the internet where it's very easy to drop people.

On a side note, I am satisfied. I am thoroughly enjoying this debate for what it is- a debate. My feelings aren't involved. If yours are, if I've offended you, I'm sorry, but no one has a gun to your head forcing you to read this. If it bugs you so much, then don't read it. I'm not violating any forum rules- I'm not attacking anyone or using vulgarity. I will let the subject rest when there are no more points to address, but since I logged on last night, the post has doubled in size- I still have plenty to discuss.

Janet:
The fact remains that this show of respect is focused on the numbers- it's really self-defeating to say it's not, when the proof is right in the announcements forum- if the focus were not on the numbers, the numbers would not be the focus of the thread titles and topics themselves.

Marge:
Thanks! I'm glad it's obvious that I don't get it- making a post about the matter, I sure didn't want the entire backbone of my topic to be disregarded! Also, I'll take your off-topic grammatical nit-pick into consideration the next time I write a college essay. And by the way, you're right! It's easy to see how caring people are when they are kind enough to reach out with their hearts to point out insignifigant mistakes!

Brad:
'"Hell, I can get recognized for that if I posted 'Good job' on every post."'

Yes, I think that's a bad feeling- but the thing is, that most here in defense of the congratulatory system would deny that that feeling exists.

Sven:
'Who sees it this way?? '
Well... if people didn't see it that way, why would the posts in question even exist?

'Then, in my opinion, you would be in the minority. . '

Am I in the minority because my eyes flick to the left? I like to know whose reply I am reading- it just so happens that even if I don't look to check post number, the size of that number is slightly visible- in a sense, the numbers are unavoidable when displayed in such an obvious place- what happened to just having posts in the member profile? What was wrong with that? I think the sheer accessability of the post number says volumes for the importance placed on them... but nobody addressed that point when I made it earlier? It seems like it's easier for people to keep saying the same thing ("NUMBERS DON'T MATTER!!") when faced with something that might actually challenge their point of view. Points of view become dangerous when people are afraid to change them, but that is another topic that deserves its own post.

'no one has said that they're important. . . '

Yesshuh. Ron did.
quote:
Were you talking about posts, birthdays, or Golden wedding anniversaries? None of them reflect quality. Each, however, can be important to the people being recognized.


Severn:
I agree with Brad. The fact that rituals (both personal and societal) are an intregal part of human nature does not explain why certain rituals arise- Now, some people, on their 21st birthday, participate in a 21-shot ritual. Does the fact that it is a ritual make it acceptable? No. And it certainly isn't necessary.


Just a side note: There are people repeating themselves and avoiding (or not noticing, whatever the case may be) issues. It's stupid to keep saying it's not the numbers without A.) giving reasons why, besides your own personal feelings (Sven, thanks for your example, you are an exception) or B.) addressing any other arguments contained in this thread.

If you really are convinced that numbers aren't the issue, or that there is no problem with the posts, then it shouldn't be that hard to provide convincing arguments and counter-arguments for your side of the matter.

everything's fine.

Titia Geertman
Member Ascendant
since 05-07-2001
Posts 5297
Netherlands


53 posted 07-12-2001 01:15 AM       View Profile for Titia Geertman   Email Titia Geertman   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Titia Geertman's Home Page   View IP for Titia Geertman

I'll change my answer, because somehow I overlooked the reply above. I'm sorry for that.

I respect the fact that people make friends using this network. I would not respect people who called me their friend, or gave me a big cyber-clap on the back, when I do not even know them. Maybe I differ from all of you in that I am selective as to who I give my affections to (especially on the internet, since I am usually busy focusing my limited time on poetry, literature, and art, not on making friends)- and to me, when people give affection freely, it's not a big step for them to take it back, especially in a setting such as the internet where it's very easy to drop people.

I'm not planning to argue on ones personality, but I felt being personally offended when you spoke about insincere, silly and so on, as you did before.
If I had made a statement here that I thought analizing was a dull business (mind you I don't) you would've felt the same way I guess. But that would be another debate.

On a side note, I am satisfied. I am thoroughly enjoying this debate for what it is- a debate. My feelings aren't involved. If yours are, if I've offended you, I'm sorry, but no one has a gun to your head forcing you to read this. If it bugs you so much, then don't read it. I'm not violating any forum rules- I'm not attacking anyone or using vulgarity. I will let the subject rest when there are no more points to address, but since I logged on last night, the post has doubled in size- I still have plenty to discuss.

This shows our differences, cause I never can shut out my feelings and debate, just for the debate itself, but I won't argue on this either because one is what one, but I'm convinced no one can shut out feelings, not even you, cause they show throughout this thread.

The issue here is if I'm right: wether one should be congratulated on their number of posts.

Your arguement was: that they shouldn't, because you thought they were silly, unsincere, not intelligent, waste of time and competative (feelings?).

My arguement is: one is free to do so, because:
Silly? well I think that's an opinion, not an arguement. One needs silliness once in a while.
Unsincere? No Way!!! not one of them. If one's unsincere they wouldn't bother to submit a reply.
Not intelligent? Who says? Sometimes a little   says more than a thousand words, because you know who gave it to you.
Waste of time? Who is to tell. My husband thinks it's a waste of time when I go fishing for a whole day. Just because he doesn't like to fish, does that make his thinking right?
Competative? It's only competative to those who like to or want to or feel they must compete. There's no sign up at Passions that says "this is a competative site so speed up your posts and get as many as you can". I'm not a competative person so numbers of posts don't arouse a competative feeling in me. I'm not a jealous person too, so it doesn't bother me that Marge has posted 18.000. Say 8000 originals, that leaves about 10.000 replies, that means she must have read a lot more, for not every poem is replied to by everyone. Sometimes they just don't tickle your heart.

And that, I think is the main difference between a forum like 'Open' and a forum like 'Critics' and thank Ron for having been so intelligent to recognize those differences in people in giving each one of them the oppertunity to 'be their selfs'.
For I, I couldn't care less if my poem is technical not right, but I do care if what I want to express in it, is reaching people. That doesn't mean I think less of people who want their poems technical analized, why should I.

And 'Announcements'? Well that's just a forum to put everything in what you want to get out of your system, whether it's a congrat to somebody's number of posts, or sharing a nice link you've seen and maybe a just say hello to someone unknown somewhere in this world, just for the fun of it.

Well that's my honest opinion on the matter and I really rest my case here, for I really am not a debating person, but a writing person.
_________________________________

Severn, no offense taken, you were right, my fault, didn't look carefull enough to the replies.

Titia  


A rose is a rose is a rose...I guess...
Feel free to use the pictures on my website. http://communities.msn.com/Titiasplace&naventryid=100


[This message has been edited by Titia Geertman (edited 07-12-2001).]

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


54 posted 07-12-2001 02:00 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Ok...I'll try to explain what I meant as I realise that my ever-so-brief question before didn't encapsulate my intent.   - how unusual.

Ok...bear with me - head not working right, if my second attempt at making sense fails - oh well - cope. ~smile~

Ritual. I just seized on something Brad had said earlier. I guess then that my inquiry revolved around the inevitability of ritual. I'll go out on a limb here: It's my personal opinion that the both of you (B and H) are caught up right now in the eager anticipation of someone here actually justifying the existence of these delightful little numbers to the left of our posts heh heh. Perhaps to the extent that you automatically searched for such an association in my question?

There wasn't any. I just merely went off on a tangent and asked a silly little question about the inevitability of ritual. It wasn't a justification. Or a search to claim that the posts are 'acceptable.' Did it read as such? Sorry if so...really - I just meant - are you surprised that these congratulatory posts exist? I'm not.

No matter how we analyse them - the fact remains they work well in forming the sense of community. That's it. That's all I meant. I'm saying they work well FULLY aware of all the pitfalls and exclusions they present - don't need to mention them cause they're all mentioned above.

Sorry - K and her tangents...

Anywho, as for justification - I don't actually know why we have the numbers. I'm going to sound really conformist and weak here - they were just here when I got here lol...

They've come to represent things to me though - like what I said (eons ago heh) at the start of this thread. HOWEVER, I was remiss in that. I'm aware my words made it sound as if I was supporting quantity. I'm not - please don't associate me too often with blanket statements - I hate the things, though I'm sure I can make them. Sometimes I see things from too many angles and have to pare it down to save my sanity.     I neglected to mention that large numbers of posts doesn't mean other members with less posts fail to put in energy, effort and a love of this place...

I merely acknowledged that the posts DO recognise those with large amount of posts who have done those things...this however doesn't account for the non-recognition that members with less posts generally get...

Like the people in CA as Kit pointed out (cheers Kitty Kat) who write reams of close analysis and thoughtful insight on a person's effort. That's certainly effort and energy etc - it's my hope that most people recognise this. And it's my hope that the announcements (even once they have been analysed to pieces - why not, analysying is fun) can be taken somewhat lightly - ie, not reading them as 'gee that person's so much better than anyone else and belongs here more legitimately than those with ~gasp~ only 387 posts! Sheesh..what about those with less than 200! Oh they should just get OUT! NO NEW MEMBERS!!!!!! EVER!!!!!!! Unless they already have 500 posts!' Ooops sorry - that was my fictious hysterical passions persona (The Severny One)...she just needs some air... hehe.

Oh Nan and Brad - there are announcement posts for time are there not?  I've seen them...BUT - what if a person went away for a year and came back? JUST to use an extreme, pain in the proverbial example. THAT is when quantity features just a little (yes, I'm ignoring quality here ON PURPOSE). Sheesh - this is a 'trap' debate heh. I have ten thousand more things to say...to elaborate...to close in the wide open spaces I've left heh...but I am now officially LATE so I have to close...

Titia - hon...I can tell you now Hush isn't being personal...have a hug and relax if you can...((((Titia))))

(Oh and just for the record Hush - I adore made/making up words, and personally - I think ludicrosity is sheer brilliance.         Making up words requires talent).


I am a refugee of logic...insisting
on unlikely land with every step.




[This message has been edited by Severn (edited 07-12-2001).]

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


55 posted 07-12-2001 03:06 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

"what if a person went away for a year and came back?"

Wouldn't you then celebrate their return?

That's what I meant when I thought most of the potential problems seem to disappear.

Oh, and, Severn, thanks for saying analysing is fun. I think so too (silly, frivolous). I also think it opens doors to paths that haven't been thought before (important, serious).

Brad

PS Hush -- Never leave!!!!!

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


56 posted 07-12-2001 03:13 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

*K the now horrendously late to the point of 'why bother going out now?' sneaks back in*

Brad - not if they were absolute hell raisers (specially in CA) - the kind who are just shy of banning - you wouldn't heh...

~doing the James Brown in triumph~

K



I am a refugee of logic...insisting
on unlikely land with every step.

[This message has been edited by Severn (edited 07-12-2001).]

Janet Marie
Member Laureate
since 01-22-2000
Posts 18986


57 posted 07-12-2001 07:57 AM       View Profile for Janet Marie   Email Janet Marie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Janet Marie

quote:
I'm sorry, but no one has a gun to your head forcing you to read this. If it bugs you so much, then don't read it.



And the same thing goes for the threads in Announcements...you dont have to click on them and read them either.
But why cant their right to existance be accepted just like this thread and those who wish to enjoy them be allowed to do so without their actions being judged as "silly" and "dumb" such a "waste of time" and its all so "trite and insincere" and "ludicrosity"

Most of us have always seemed to understand...
those threads are simply just another way of saying thank you, we're glad youre here..and are an extension of the respectful atmosphere that Ron and the moderators have worked so hard to create here..so that ALL feel welcome and encouraged to participate.


  
Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 05-20-99
Posts 24426
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


58 posted 07-12-2001 08:17 AM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

All righty then...
quote:
: There are people repeating themselves and avoiding (or not noticing, whatever the case may be) issues. It's stupid to keep saying it's not the numbers without A.) giving reasons why, besides your own personal feelings (Sven, thanks for your example, you are an exception) or B.) addressing any other arguments contained in this thread.


I fail to see why focusing a response to this or any issue upon one's own personal feelings correlates to intelligence levels... Sorry - I just don't see it.. It doesn't "feel" right...

quote:

If you really are convinced that numbers aren't the issue, or that there is no problem with the posts, then it shouldn't be that hard to provide convincing arguments and counter-arguments for your side of the matter.


Were I to opt for an argument, it would indeed to be quite simple.

quote:

.... but doesn't anyone ever wonder why they spend time with something so silly?

Nope, I guess not. As for me....I'm not gonna to either, cuz I prefer the silly far more than the serious.

If that strikes you as me being not intelligent, well intelligence has nothing to do with displaying ones knowledge, but with ones coping with diverse situations.

Who are you to anyway to judge my silliness.



Besides - All the points are so eloquently expressed already, why be redundant?...Oh - That's been said already too, hasn't it?...
Miss Behavin'
Member
since 06-16-99
Posts 94


59 posted 07-12-2001 08:21 AM       View Profile for Miss Behavin'   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Miss Behavin'

Thank you so much, suthern...


humble bow
hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


60 posted 07-12-2001 11:59 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Titia:
I said I was sorry if your feelings got involved in this debtae- I am not judging your or your silliness, and I never said anything about anyone here lacking intelligence. I'm not attacking you, but if this debate has made you feel attacked, maybe you really should take a look at that- I'm not saying that to be rude- but if congratulatory posts are really that near and dear to your heart that you feel personally attacked when I question them, maybe you should re-evaluate what's important?

Severn:
'No matter how we analyse them - the fact remains they work well in forming the sense of community.'

And that is exactly where my point is coming from. Yes, in a sense it can create a fun environment, but in another, doesn't it create an exclusive clique that some people (who may not have grown beyond high school popularity contests- hell, who might even still be in high school) might feel left out of?

And yes, analyzing is fun- I think that's where some people have me wrong- I'm not over here getting into an angry huff, I'm over here saying "Yes!" when someone actually gives me a point to argue or that makes me think about my own position on the subject.

LOL, and regarding ludicrosity- I wasn't even aware that I had made the word up until Marge was kind enough to tell me- but now that I know, I can chalk it up to artistic integrity- my debate, my art, my word.  

Brad:
Hmm... I dunno- after this, my name might be too tarnished, and my post count isn't high enough to redeem me... I might feel a little too ostracized to stay... but then again, Poet DeVine kindly (and I'm sure, sincerely) congratulated me on 100 posts, so I'm on my way, right? lol.  

Janet:
You're right. Nobody forces me to go into the Announcements forum. However, I don't reply to those posts asking their authors to 'let it be'. I am asking for an explanation- if Titia had asked for some kind of an explanation I would have gladly provided it (even though i think I've already explained my motives in questioning the practice). But instead of questioning, she asked me to 'let it be', which I found a little rude of her. I have every right to speak my opinion on the subject of congratulating on post numbers- just as much right as people have to post about how much they are posting.

'so that ALL feel welcome and encouraged to participate.'

That there is exactly my point. If I were not of such an audacious nature, I would probably feel intimidated by the big post numbers and the big happy groups formed by those people. There are probably plenty of people here who, if they questioned this practice the way I did, mght get hurt feelings over Member Laureate Marge's nitpicks (witty attempts to emberrass me? I'm not really sure where it came- but in my opinion, it seems like maybe without a good solid argument, she reverted to snide comments?) or Administrator/Member Laureate Poet DeVine's congratulations to me (in a post I put in Q&A about HTML) which didn't seem in the least bit sincere to me (in fact, maybe there was a hint of sarcasm? Now I KNOW I'll get crucified for suggesting that one- we all know Admins/mods are inclusive of EVERYONE, right?), in light of the uproar over this topic in the last couple of days. How many new members either A) left because they didn't feel included or B) went into hypoer-post mode so they could feel included? Obviously, we won't know, because you can't talk to people who are gone, and nobody's going to admit to posting more to get higher numbers (but I'm willing to bet more people do it than anyone in here defending the numbers would like to imagine.)

Nan:
'I fail to see why focusing a response to this or any issue upon one's own personal feelings correlates to intelligence levels... Sorry - I just don't see it.. It doesn't "feel" right... '

Once again, I never questioned intelligence levels. I'm just saying that if you are participating in an argument, it is presumed that you want to win that argument. A bunch of people repreating themselves is not a good way to do that.

everything's fine.

Janet Marie
Member Laureate
since 01-22-2000
Posts 18986


61 posted 07-12-2001 01:48 PM       View Profile for Janet Marie   Email Janet Marie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Janet Marie

I noticed that when you replied to my comment you didnt address my question about all the rude and judgemental adjectives you have used on this thread...including "stupid"... and yet you point out when you felt others have done this to you.
You cant have it both ways...
you cant judge people and call them names...
and judge how they spend their time as "silly" or tell them they need to "re-evaluate whats important" and then say its not personal....
and as Nan and others have asked...
Who are you to tell us what we should think "silly" or a "waste of time"???
But in the light of your last post...
suddenly things become clearer....and this is becoming more personal by the minute as you name people and bring up things that happened on other threads that have nothing to do with this thread...
its becoming obvious there are issues and perhaps grudges here other than some friendly congrats and thank you threads in Announcements....
SO thanks but no thanks....
Its not a debate or intelligent arguement when its about "winning" rather than solving the problem...
So--Im out....I wont participate when its about words becoming weapons...no one will "win" that arguement...and people will only get hurt..so whats the point then?
I guess that makes me part of the "heart" crowd...and hey...thats a "label" I can live with..I been called worse..
Im going to use my time to replying to poetry and offering positive encouragement.
That after all IS the reason I am here...
for the poetry...Not to win a popularity contest as some seem to think us heavy posters and long time members must be.
PEACE poets....
my love and respect to poetry land.
See ya in the poetry forums.
  

Feels like Im dancing with truth and wisdom
Precious rhythm you are my guide
These days are sacred, my heart is humble
Oh warrior show me the light

Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 05-20-99
Posts 24426
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


62 posted 07-12-2001 02:54 PM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

Hush...

Understand this... ... ANYONE who expresses themselves appropriately, politely, sincerely, and respectfully is emphatically welcome on these forums.  We need not agree to be able to partake in productive discussion.  We need only be civil and respect each other... You, hush, are as welcome as the rest...

I look forward to seeing some of your work posted in the poetry/prose forums, as it seems to me that one who puts this much thought into formulating their opinions must do the same in their writings... Just have fun and play nicely...

BTW - Have I neglected to formally welcome you to Passions?

WELCOME ABOARD, HUSH...



p.s.... Um.... All this time I thought I was exclusive.. Now I learn that I'm INCLUSIVE?... geesh...



[This message has been edited by Nan (edited 07-12-2001).]

Sven
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Laureate
since 11-23-1999
Posts 15611
Lansing, MI USA


63 posted 07-12-2001 03:53 PM       View Profile for Sven   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Sven

quote:
Am I in the minority because my eyes flick to the left? I like to know whose reply I am reading- it just so happens that even if I don't look to check post number, the size of that number is slightly visible- in a sense, the numbers are unavoidable when displayed in such an obvious place- what happened to just having posts in the member profile? What was wrong with that? I think the sheer accessibility of the post number says volumes for the importance placed on them... but nobody addressed that point when I made it earlier? It seems like it's easier for people to keep saying the same thing ("NUMBERS DON'T MATTER!!") when faced with something that might actually challenge their point of view. Points of view become dangerous when people are afraid to change them, but that is another topic that deserves its own post.


Perhaps you are, for myself, my eyes don’t flick to the left every time I bring up a new post.  But, I might be wrong about anyone else, so, I leave that to them.

The numbers are in an obvious place??  Well, perhaps, but who has time to notice the tiny font that they’re in.  If they were really that important, they would be bigger, not just accessible, don’t you think??  Just because I can see them, doesn’t mean that I feel that they’re important.  Or rather, just because I can see them, doesn’t mean that I feel that they’re as important as YOU think that I feel that they are.  

The numbers don’t matter.  Ok, well, how about this? The numbers don’t matter to me.  Is that a better way to say it??  It would appear, quite obviously, that the numbers matter to you my friend.  May I ask why?  Why does the fact that you can see how many posts that I have bother you so much?  Do you think that it bothered any of our newer members?  Do you think that it bothers our very new members??  Well, let’s ask them.  

Hello New Members!!!  If seeing the huge numbers of posts that some of us (myself included) have intimidated you in any way shape or form, please make yourselves known in this thread!!  Please be honest, we’d like to know just how you feel or felt when you first came here.

Okay, I’m sure that we’ll have some answers very soon.

The fact that you ask “what happened to just having posts in the member profile?” might lead one to believe that perhaps you’ve been here before, perhaps when this, if ever, was done.  To take Severn’s plea, “They were here when I got here!”  And if you have been here before, I’m wondering what it was that made you leave??  Was it this very issue?  Or was it something entirely different??  

quote:
(Sven, thanks for your example, you are an exception)


Thank you, you’ve made my day with this one!  

quote:
And that is exactly where my point is coming from. Yes, in a sense it can create a fun environment, but in another, doesn't it create an exclusive clique that some people (who may not have grown beyond high school popularity contests- hell, who might even still be in high school) might feel left out of?


Only if those that are part of that “clique” take it as such.  I’m sure that those of us in the “5 digit” group could be seen as an exclusive group.  But, I’ll be the first to tell you that we’re not like that.  Every one of us interacts very much with as many poets (both new and old) as we can.  We try to make everyone feel welcome.  And, not just us, but every member, every poet, in their own way, also contributes to this sense of belonging and welcoming.  Because all of us remember that we were new here once too.  We were afraid to share our words with the world, we were afraid at what people would think of our words.  We know that, and we understand that.  Now, I’m not saying that we know exactly what goes through each new members’ mind when they come here, but we do know some of the feelings.

quote:
If I were not of such an audacious nature, I would probably feel intimidated by the big post numbers and the big happy groups formed by those people.


You said it yourself, “big happy groups”.  Sure, we’ve formed some groups of people that get along with each other.  Friendships have been made and cultivated.  But, I wouldn’t call them “cliques”.  Because a “clique” is exclusive and these groups aren’t.

quote:
There are probably plenty of people here who, if they questioned this practice the way I did, might get hurt feelings over Member Laureate Marge's nitpicks (witty attempts to embarrass me? I'm not really sure where it came- but in my opinion, it seems like maybe without a good solid argument, she reverted to snide comments?) or Administrator/Member Laureate Poet DeVine's congratulations to me (in a post I put in Q&A about HTML) which didn't seem in the least bit sincere to me (in fact, maybe there was a hint of sarcasm?


Funny, I’ve never seen them in that light.  They’ve always just been Marge and Poet deVine to me.

quote:
Now I KNOW I'll get crucified for suggesting that one- we all know Admins/mods are inclusive of EVERYONE, right?)


Come on, you know the answer to that one.  Don’t even try to start something on that level, stick to the topic.  

quote:
in light of the uproar over this topic in the last couple of days. How many new members either A) left because they didn't feel included or B) went into hyper-post mode so they could feel included? Obviously, we won't know, because you can't talk to people who are gone, and nobody's going to admit to posting more to get higher numbers (but I'm willing to bet more people do it than anyone in here defending the numbers would like to imagine.)


There’s really no way to know this for too many reasons.  One of which is that most of the new members don’t stray from Open for at least a couple of weeks.  And yes, sometimes, some of them might feel a little out of place in these discussion Forums, but they, like you, have just as much right to say what they feel and to give their opinions.  And I’m glad to see that some of them have jumped right in to this discussion.  

I don’t post more to get higher numbers.  You’ll see that it’s taken me a long time to get to 10,000.  For myself, I only post one poem a day.  Sometimes, I do post more than one, sometimes, I don’t post at all.  That’s me.  Others do post more than once, that’s up to them.  Suggesting that they do this just to get higher numbers however, is pretty unfounded.  

quote:
I'm just saying that if you are participating in an argument, it is presumed that you want to win that argument.


I don’t want to “win” this argument per se.  However, I’d like to try to get you to see and understand that most of us aren’t the “hyper-posters” that you make us out to be.  Nor are we the “elitist” types that you make us out to be either.  

We’re just people.  Just poets.  And we’re here to share our poetry with our fellow human beings in an atmosphere where we try to cultivate a sense of welcome, a sense of warmth, and a sense of friendship.  It’s been that way from the beginning, and we’ll always try as hard as we can to make sure that it stays that way.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------  

To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world.

Sunshine
Administrator
Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


64 posted 07-12-2001 05:46 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Hey Sven....

I'm a hyper-welcomer.....
Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 05-26-99
Posts 25869
Hurricane Alley


65 posted 07-12-2001 05:50 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

Hush, I apologize for my reply in your Q&A post. It really wasn't meant to be sarcastic, it was an attempt at humor (which I see now I should have handled differently).

As for my 'titles' ... when it comes right down to it, I'm first and foremost, just a member like you.

Titia Geertman
Member Ascendant
since 05-07-2001
Posts 5297
Netherlands


66 posted 07-12-2001 06:48 PM       View Profile for Titia Geertman   Email Titia Geertman   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Titia Geertman's Home Page   View IP for Titia Geertman

You did it again Hush, how many times you may say you appologize, you're attacking in the same breath.
_____________________________________________
I said I was sorry if your feelings got involved in this debtae- I am not judging your or your silliness
_____________________________________________
quotes
I personally feel it's silly to put that much importance on a little file on the internet.

because it's just a forum on the internet where people congratulate each other about being active on the internet.... but that's my whole point. It's dumb! It does make people feel good... but about what? Posting a lot? It just seems like a pretty futile way to boost confidence anyway-

Those few points that severn copied are the exception- and if people want to say 'Oh! Here's 4,000 kisses for those 4,000 posts!' it's not gonna bother me at night either.... but doesn't anyone ever wonder why they spend time with something so silly?

Ron, I am in total agreeance that numbers are numbers and should stay as such- which is precisely why I think it's so stupid to have virtual ticker-tape parades about them
_____________________________________________
I never said anything about anyone here lacking intelligence
_____________________________________________
quotes
I am not concerned about how congratulatory posts relate to me, because I don't use the forum as a friend-making tool. I come here to have interesting and intelligent discussions/debates with people. I know someone's going to ask me why, then, am I attacking the post congratulating practice- and it's for the above reason

But, to me, any forums that have those little counters (some that have member classifications- such as jr. member, newbie, etc., that by virtue of the name itself indicate a certain naivete, someone who isn't 'broken in' or doesn't yet have the hang of things...) seem to be saying 'look here'.

I am half irritated to see so many presumably intelligent people delighting in their frolics in internet-land, and half-amused, especially by your bit of philosophy within your very heated response.

It's stupid to keep saying it's not the numbers without A.) giving reasons why, besides your own personal feelings (Sven, thanks for your example, you are an exception) or B.) addressing any other arguments contained in this thread
_____________________________________________

I'm not attacking you, but if this debate has made you feel attacked, maybe you really should take a look at that- I'm not saying that to be rude- but if congratulatory posts are really that near and dear to your heart that you feel personally attacked when I question them, maybe you should re-evaluate what's important?
_____________________________________________
This debate? What debate! This is not a debate. In a debate there's a statement and people argue, they listen to each other and argue again. They don't 'yell' and use nasty words as silly, dumb, naive, stupid, trite, insincere, waste of time, they don't question intelligence, they just try to defend their own side with respect for the opponents side. This is no debate, this is a streetfight.

Why do I have to take a look at myself, when feeling attacked in this debate. I've come to know myself pretty well in the last 56 years I've been around. As I stated before, if I was to tell here, in general (and mind you, this is just an IF, not my real opinion) that I thought the forum 'critics' sucks, that it's boring, that people are just replying to look interesting…how attacked would you feel by these words 'spoken in general'? Pretty much I guess. So don't say I must look at myself, just because you took a freedom to attack feelings, mine or others, meanwhile saying you're not saying them to be rude.

And the last sentence really makes my day. You don't suffer from a slight fragance of modesty, do you. You should really read that line several times over yourself and maybe then you would come to understand why I really do feel offended now. I won't bother to explain it to you, just figure it out yourself.

I'm out of here, my real opinion? I don't think this thread is getting anywhere in the end. I don't like to 'debate' just for the sake of debating. Maybe you're feeling good (as you said somewhere)in this thread, I'm happy for you, but I'm not and looking at some of the other replies, I have a feeling I'm not the only one.

Sometimes it just takes a little guts to call it quits (or whatever the expression is in English)

I looked at your poems, some I like, some I don't, I won't reply on them however, because I don't like analizing, can't help it, I'm just cut out of a different peace of wood I guess. You keep going on in critics, I will in 'open' and maybe someday, we will meet again here at Passions, who knows...

Titia



A rose is a rose is a rose...I guess...
Feel free to use the pictures on my website. http://communities.msn.com/Titiasplace&naventryid=100

[This message has been edited by Titia Geertman (edited 07-12-2001).]

Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 05-20-99
Posts 24426
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


67 posted 07-12-2001 08:44 PM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

Another point...

I don't participate in a discussion to 'win' anything.. I participate purely for the purposes of communication...

[This message has been edited by Nan (edited 07-12-2001).]

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


68 posted 07-12-2001 09:11 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Well I like to win heh.

But who ever wins a debate or argument anyway?

No matter the conclusions reached in this thread the announcements will go on. Shrug. Has anyone won? Nope - just that opinions will have been rather thoroughly aired...

K
hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


69 posted 07-13-2001 02:39 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Janet:
I guess I can see where you're coming from in the sense that I've used less-than-polite terms to coin what I feel (not what i think you should feel) is a dumb and possibly (to some people) alienating practice. If I really wanted to, I could have used drier words, but I guess when I started out on this topic, I didn't think I was going to upset so many people and possibly hurt some of their feelings? Tact is not a virtue of mine-

You're right- there are issues here- they are issues that I have been bringing up all throughout the thread. As for grudges, I don't bear any of those- I would have had to have made personal connections to bear grudges. Maybe some people would call this debate (or arguement) a personal connection- I don't. So in a way, it boils down to perception, and what one perceives as personal, I guess.

And you're right- winning isn't the end result of any intelligent conversation- which means either this has taken a turn, or I was a little too lazy (and by the end of my marathon post, exhausted) to say "making a good solid point to the other side and maybe giving them something to think about" and took the short-cut mono-syllabic way out. My guess is it's a bit of both.

To all:
If I have personally insulted anyone, please know that it wasn't my intent (unless I felt (perhaps wrongly) personally insulted by that person first- which did result in a couple comments on my part that most definitely could have been handled better). I'm not going to apologize for the points that i have made, because I still believe whole-heartedly in them- but maybe there were things I could have phrased differently? I am sorry that such a relatively inconsequential comment I made on a relatively inconsequential practice created any unneccessary e-hostility, because that's another stupid thing.

Sven:
Being able to see posts isn't what bothers me- it's simply the indication both by their accessible placement, the congratulatory threads, and the highest poster list (wherever that is) that the numbers are, indeed, more important than anyone wants to admit.

Also- I have been to a lot of UBB forums where the number of posts a member had was only visible when you looked at their member profiles- I believe they used to do that here, before the software was updated, but I'm not really sure- because it was a long time ago (if you consider '99 that long ago)... LOL.

Regarding any past memberships I may have had or why I would have re-registered- I don't really see how that has any relevance here? But as a relatively young person, I go through different phases during which I might write completely differently and have a completely different outlook- and as one online posting name becomes obsolete at any number of forums I post at, I simply re-register under a new one (although it seems that this current nick-name might be innaproriate for me? Or if I paid more attention to myself, I might learn a thing or two- like shutting the (expletive) up when it's time to do so...lol.) It has nothing to do with post numbers or grudges or anything else.

And yeah, you're right, I went off-topic and personal with my side comments. I'll keep those to myself from now on.

DeVine:
And I apologize for being irritable and taking something minor too seriously. I can imagine the eye-rolling I got for that one...

Titia:
I agree that while this may have started as (what I hoped to be) a debate, it has regressed from such into what you call a streetfight- and no, that's not good, or right, or productive in any way. So Yes, I do see where people come from when they are saying i have crossed personal boundaries (and I have)- I don't have a knack for objectivity, and I do have a bent towards impulsiveness- So the transition from debate to argument maybe wasn't quite as apparent to me? So yes, I can see where you are offended.

Yeah, I was feeling good about this post, because people were making good points, and I felt I was making good points back. Am I happy about the way it's gone in the third page? No, not at all...

I guess I learned a lesson in this too? Not to question personal practices because the debate will eventually turn personal, and in the end, it's just a facet of human nature that ends up finding its way into the discussion....

Other than that, I guess I'm done with this, too- I'll stick to dissecting poetry from now on- I piss remarkably less people off that way.

everything's fine.

wayoutwalt
Member Ascendant
since 06-22-99
Posts 5106
TEXAS (it's all big)


70 posted 07-13-2001 05:50 AM       View Profile for wayoutwalt   Email wayoutwalt   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for wayoutwalt

Wait WAIT WAIT You cant get rid of the number thing I was almost at 4000 and that means 5000 and a new title is around the corner and how am I gonna keep up with my status oh and am I still on the top 50 posters list let me check let me check (agh) (thump) (heart attack!!!!!!!)
Temptress
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 06-15-99
Posts 7276
Mobile, AL


71 posted 07-13-2001 06:20 AM       View Profile for Temptress   Email Temptress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Temptress

hush,
Just what is wrong with this getting to a third page? This is a discussion forum. People getting annoyed or offended in any discussion is inevitable, especially with so many people here. As for snide remarks, I have seen it go on here on these pages when people get annoyed. You can't control that either really, and if it truly doesn't bother you then I would say to let them have their fun. They'll pay for it somewhere along the way, eh?   Mind you, I'm not saying I agree that your examples were doing so. There really is nothing you can do but present your points in an effective and non degrading manner (ie not calling ways of communicating or arguing stupid...FOR WHICH YOU HAVE APLOGIZED FOR..so know I'm only making an example and not attacking you). The reaction on here, the number of replies, or the number of pages this whole debate reaches are things you can't really control so why stress yourself over that?    
JLR
Senior Member
since 02-04-2001
Posts 1851


72 posted 07-13-2001 09:49 AM       View Profile for JLR   Email JLR   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JLR

Does anyone have an Excedrin?
Titia Geertman
Member Ascendant
since 05-07-2001
Posts 5297
Netherlands


73 posted 07-13-2001 11:53 AM       View Profile for Titia Geertman   Email Titia Geertman   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Titia Geertman's Home Page   View IP for Titia Geertman

JLR, would you please be so kind to tell me what a Excedrin is  . Did you make that word up for even my Webster is not aware of the existance of such a word, beautiful as it sounds though.

Do you mean an Exit-line
Or just maybe an Exit-rhyme
Are we to close this thread
Before we'll debating it dead
For debating we were no more
Just our feelings did get sore
Taking distance sometimes is good
Get some pressure of heated mood
Is this what I made an Excedrin
You say NO?????
Then I just settle for a supergrin


See ya all around somewhere.

Titia


A rose is a rose is a rose...I guess...
Feel free to use the pictures on my website. http://communities.msn.com/Titiasplace&naventryid=100

hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


74 posted 07-13-2001 12:04 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

I'm not displeased that this reached a third page, Temptress, but rather that in the third page, the debate became less focused and more of a personal argument.

everything's fine.

 
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