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Passions in Poetry

Ahhh!!! I Can"t Take it Anymore!

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Marilyn
Member Elite
since 09-26-1999
Posts 2646
Ontario, Canada


0 posted 10-09-2000 05:23 PM       View Profile for Marilyn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Marilyn

Please someone help me! This is driving me absolutely INSANE! What is it with people telling others "great writing" when the writing really stinks? Oh man....I have come across this far to often since I have come back and it really is going to kill me if I don't scream about it for a moment.

I know we all want to say something nice about someone's writing and it is all well and good to do so but please....lets not out and out LIE! Find what is good and point that out to them. They may have expressed their emotions very clearly in the piece but that does not mean it was well written.

*bowing head and pinching fingers around bridge of nose....taking a deep breath*

Ok...I'm better now...I think.
doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028
Virginia


1 posted 10-09-2000 05:30 PM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

great writing, marilyn... hehe  

you're fighting a losing battle, trust me... there's probably dozens of threads here at passions on this same subject and we've been around it over and over and over... but good luck! sincerely
StarPryncess17
Senior Member
since 05-31-2000
Posts 944
Colorado


2 posted 10-09-2000 06:22 PM       View Profile for StarPryncess17   Email StarPryncess17   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit StarPryncess17's Home Page   View IP for StarPryncess17

Every single Forum has this problem, unfortunately there isn't much that we can do. I wish so much that I could fix it and tell you that your writing stinks..haha j/k!!!!   but really, there's not much else we can do besides patronize the people who choose to inadvertantly lie. Sorry! Put it this way...**it happens!!  

sMiLe! It MaKeS YoUr BuTt ShInE!  


*Being an angel doesn't mean having a halo or wings, it means doing the right thing and wanting to make a difference*

Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 05-26-99
Posts 25869
Hurricane Alley


3 posted 10-09-2000 10:56 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

Since we're being honest...Star, that font color is hard to read....Can't tell you if something is 'well written'...I can't read it!        
Irie
Senior Member
since 12-01-1999
Posts 1526
Washington State


4 posted 10-09-2000 11:08 PM       View Profile for Irie   Email Irie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Irie

To some it may be well writen, to others, it may not be.
I think that everyone has their own style and liking.
I too have read stuff that I thought stinks, and read replies raving about it.
I have also read poetry that doesn't get the attention that it desreves.
But anyway, back to the point.
Not everyone actually has "proper poetry edicate" or what ever you want to call it.
Some, like me, know very little about types of poety, meter, etc etc. They just like to write and post it. Like me  
This is just my oppinion, but I do know how it makes you crazy seeing stuff like that in replies.
I see things that make me nuts too.  


~Sheri

"The things that come to those that wait may be the things
left by those who got there first"
Marilyn
Member Elite
since 09-26-1999
Posts 2646
Ontario, Canada


5 posted 10-09-2000 11:11 PM       View Profile for Marilyn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Marilyn

You know...this post wasn't about solving the problem or pissing anyone off. This post was just for me to scream for a moment and just let off some steam. It worked and I feel better. I realize this problem has been tossed around before but this time it was my turn...lol.

I guess once to often I saw "good writing" and had to go back and see if I had missed something. *shrug*

The Alley is for blowing off frustration isn't it?
Rex Allen McCoy
Member Elite
since 01-30-2000
Posts 2636
Sippin a Timmy's in London


6 posted 10-10-2000 12:54 AM       View Profile for Rex Allen McCoy   Email Rex Allen McCoy   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Rex Allen McCoy's Home Page   View IP for Rex Allen McCoy

I've been writing for quite some time ... mostly to just myself ... I had no one that cared to read my writing. For the most part if I told anyone that I write poetry ... they made fun of me and laughed.
Then along came the internet and some poetry groups started in the open news groups at
(rec. and alt. sites) there are several of them and I tried posting there only to get pounced upon by trolls with self acclaimed superiority (they seem to have no problem recuiting followers from the younger age groups)
Well I quickly found that if I wrote jokes into my poetry ... they would laugh and leave me alone ... but I was chained to thoughts that were not really me (I was being dictated to, by fear)
This went on for a long time until I found Passions ... the people said good things to me ... no matter what the quality of my writing and I quickly felt at ease ... enough to post some more serious thoughts ... still I received nothing but encouragement ... I now feel that I can write whatever comes to mind without the fear that ruled me before and for that I would like to thank all those here for their kind words.
I know that I am not that good ... but It sure feels good to be able to post whatever comes to mind and I find that I am more interested in learning about poetry styles and trying to improve myself.
If it wasn't for this group where would we be? How many new poets would have stopped writing and 'reading' and learning ?
Is praise not just another word for encouragement ?
... it is to me ...
Irie
Senior Member
since 12-01-1999
Posts 1526
Washington State


7 posted 10-10-2000 02:15 AM       View Profile for Irie   Email Irie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Irie

I'm sorry Marilyn,
Was just trying to make a point, and after all, the first line of you post was
"Please, someone help me!"
Who's pissed off? I'm certainly not.  
I hope you didn't take my reply that way.
Hugs  



~Sheri

"The things that come to those that wait may be the things
left by those who got there first"
Ladycat
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Senior Member
since 07-05-99
Posts 809
At the edge and a doorway,TX


8 posted 10-10-2000 02:35 AM       View Profile for Ladycat   Email Ladycat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ladycat's Home Page   View IP for Ladycat

Hey Marilyn,
You have to remember that one man's trash is another man's treasure.  You might think that the writing is awful, but someone else might think that the writing truely is good.  I don't see many bad writers here and I think it is because the writing are coming from the soul.  One of the things here is that you never insult a poet by telling them their writings stink.  I'm sure that you would never like anything like that you happen to you. Think especially if this person is a new poet and this is their first time at netpoets.  Do you think that they would want to come back if someone insulted them?  Remember that they anger might get around and one day they might stop to read your poetry and say that it stinks too just out of anger and then what?  It doesn't seem fair.  Now if you want to give them some contructive critizism then that is another thing. I'm sure that they would understand that better. I promise, I'm not mad either.

Love,
Lady

Live in my world just once and you'll find yourself enraptured.



[This message has been edited by Ladycat (edited 10-10-2000).]
RainbowGirl
Member Elite
since 07-31-99
Posts 3167
United Kingdom


9 posted 10-10-2000 06:47 AM       View Profile for RainbowGirl   Email RainbowGirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit RainbowGirl's Home Page   View IP for RainbowGirl

Hiya stranger.. Haven't seen you about for a while or maybe we're not travelling the same path just now..

I understood what you meant but I guess I also agree with the others...I remember when I first popped up at PIP...I know what I write wouldn't win any medals but like someone said, Lady, I think, I do write from the heart and I guess I'm lucky that some understand that...again I don't understand all the concepts and variations of poetry and to someone that does, I'm sure they must think I'm dreadful..ROFL...But again, like Rex said, it does feel so very good to just say what you feel without being pounced upon...I'm just thankful that some think what I write is worthy of a reply...

Take care of you and nice to see you around again, hope life is being kind to you..

HUGS

Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 05-26-99
Posts 25869
Hurricane Alley


10 posted 10-10-2000 09:07 AM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

I think the operative word here is home. This is our home and we welcome anyone in. We have over 4,000 members but not nearly that many are regulars. Some come here thinking they will make their mark by posting and not replying and quickly find that we are truly an interactive forum. Give and take. Read and reply. Write and encourage. And with encouragement, even the smallest bud will bloom into a beautiful flower. And our Passion's Garden is full of beautiful flowers - a poetic bouquet!    
Rex Allen McCoy
Member Elite
since 01-30-2000
Posts 2636
Sippin a Timmy's in London


11 posted 10-10-2000 09:55 AM       View Profile for Rex Allen McCoy   Email Rex Allen McCoy   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Rex Allen McCoy's Home Page   View IP for Rex Allen McCoy

Perhaps it's what's not said that bothers you most ... perhaps you need to to hear what may not have been said before ...
Marilyn ... you were the one who first e-mailed me when I first came to passions ... you welcomed me with a warmth I found most refreshing ... you questioned me about things that no one else ever cared about and we became friends.
You write amazingly good prose stories and that got me interested enough to write one myself ... an experience I might never have known if not for your kindness and encouragement.
I have since met a multitude of the kindest most caring people I have ever known ... I must admit that I don't always understand what it is they are writing about, but that has to be partly my problem and not theirs ... perhaps like you say ... if we give praise and we know what it is, about their poem that inspires us ... we should center our reply around that ... so that others ... particularly - myself might better understand what has been written ... then we can properly give encouragement to the poet.

I thankyou Marilyn ... for being so kind to me and I always like to get your e-mails ... yours and the others really help to make the internet a rewarding experience.

Rex
Poertree
Senior Member
since 11-05-1999
Posts 1413
UK


12 posted 10-10-2000 10:53 AM       View Profile for Poertree   Email Poertree   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poertree

ok marilyn, hi

first off - you might have been "sounding off" but what you said was absolutely true.  in practically all the Passions forums you will find lots and lots of examples of people singing the praises of what by most measures would be considered rubbish writing - it used to irritate me too, but not for long ....

You see Rex and Sharon are absolutely right.  Out there on the big bad net there are loads of unmoderated newsgroups and boards where you can post poems and be sure to get a disgustingly rude and gratuitously vicious reply, which is just as unhelpful in my opinion as getting a WOW or a WONDERFUL on every piece you post, and much more upsetting.  Soon you find Passions.  Passions is not a poetry message board it's a "home" - rules and controls and moderators help it to be so.  And as Rex says most of the terror and tension of posting work that reflects your feelings disappears when you know you are surrounded by friends......... BUT

and it is a big but....

i think we need to be honest about what Passions is NOT...... what most of Passions is not (especially Open) is a place where you can expect to receive replies that will be objective and constructively critical of your work.  The Open forum is not about "serious" poetry it is about making friends, giving support, having a bit of fun and being part of a like minded "family".  That's not to say that there aren't some really excellent (IMHO) poems in Open, there are, (in fact I recently "discovered" a poet who's been posting in Open for a long while who i feel is the equal of many poets I've see in so called serious periodicals), but there is also a good deal of very lightweight poetry which nevertheless gets rave reviews.  I have got into the habit of simply accepting that such reviews are another way of giving love and support to the poet, and in no way reflect the content of the poem which, in some cases, (and here i bet Doreen can relate..lol) may remain un-read or speed-read.

There are one or two places in Passions, the Workshops and Critical Analysis where the "rules" are slightly different.  In Critical for instance you'll eventually be frowned on if you post too many of the "this is just amazing", "wow - this is ground breaking stuff" type replies.  That particular forum encourages discussion about poetry and about the poems posted.  it aims in a constructive way to help people think about what they write and maybe become better writers as a result.  in stark contrast to Open the emphasis is on reading the poem thoroughly and trying to make honest well thought out replies aimed purely at the poem not the poet, whether these replies be constructively negative or positive should be purely a function of the reader's considered and honest analysis.

Anyway that's what we like to think we do in CA, but i guess even there you cant help getting to kinda like people ...lol.... even Brad is a cuddly bunny under all those layers of stern resolve ...heh

anyway there ya go Marilyn, my two pennies worth (yup pennies not cents).....oh and get yer'self over to CA ...   

philip
Marilyn
Member Elite
since 09-26-1999
Posts 2646
Ontario, Canada


13 posted 10-10-2000 02:13 PM       View Profile for Marilyn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Marilyn

You see...I agree with all of each of you have said. I adore Passions! I have been here for over a year and even try to moderate because this place means more to me then many can believe. All of us working together to create a possitive evironment which generates inspiration. Ahh a poets heaven to say the least.

The thing that bothers me at times is how we can not strive to better ourselves as poets and authors. Never in a million years would I encourage anyone to attack anothers writing but can we not be open to creative critism?

You see....I have this friend at this site. Great man, fabulous poet and a highly reguarded friend to many at passions. I send him every single link I post. He reads everything I write and tells me honestly what he thinks. There was this one piece of prose I posted. I found it on my HHD achieved and thought I would post it to see what everyone thought. High priases came in from everyone but this man. He did not reply at all. I was confused. Later the next evening he was on and I asked if he read the piece (via icq), he told me that he had but did not reply because he thought the writing was poor and not up to my standards. He pointed out some horrid spelling and grammerical errors and I was embarrasses that I had posted the piece at all!

You see I had not properly read the piece before posting and this piece was VERY old. I had improved as drastically since writing the piece. If it had not been for this one dear friend I would have thought the piece was something else. It is now in a file to be edited ot rewritten completely.


Do you understand my point here?
Poertree
Senior Member
since 11-05-1999
Posts 1413
UK


14 posted 10-10-2000 02:24 PM       View Profile for Poertree   Email Poertree   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poertree

oops .too enthusiastic .....lol


[This message has been edited by Poertree (edited 10-10-2000).]
Poertree
Senior Member
since 11-05-1999
Posts 1413
UK


15 posted 10-10-2000 02:24 PM       View Profile for Poertree   Email Poertree   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poertree

er... yooo hooo Marilyn ......

~wavin' frantically~

CA

Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


16 posted 10-10-2000 02:27 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Geez Phiip, an advert now, eh? LOL

Phiip the Writing Billboard!



LOL

Mar - I know what you're talkin' bout!  
JP
Senior Member
since 05-25-99
Posts 1391
Loomis, CA


17 posted 10-10-2000 02:39 PM       View Profile for JP   Email JP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit JP's Home Page   View IP for JP

Marylin, for the record I agree with you.  Yet, life at Passions has taught me that there is a  time for honesty and a time for silence.  Honesty, even when heartfelt and well-intended can soon find you on your own, unread, and ignored.  Some of us here would rather get a "this sucks' comment instead of no comment, but the old saying holds firm "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."  If one chooses to ignore that tome of wisdom, one soon finds oneself, exiled.

It is hard to walk in the front door of your home and have no one tell you hello.


Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn.
JP

Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so.
B. Russell
Irie
Senior Member
since 12-01-1999
Posts 1526
Washington State


18 posted 10-10-2000 03:19 PM       View Profile for Irie   Email Irie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Irie

I understand everyone's point here,
and they are all good points.
Including yours Marylin.  
I too see poetry that I think stinks or could be better, but to each his own.
What is good and bad poetry? Who's the judge?
I recall a poem posted a while back and I think it should be read.
I believe it was called "the best poem you'll ever read"
There is nothing wrong with criticism so long as a person asks for it.
I posted a complaint about this a while back expressing my feelings on this.
Like you said, you sent links to your friend asking for it.
There are those of us who don't ask.
Not everyone is so tough. What might not hurt your feelings or ego, might hurt someone else's.
I have to agree with Philip. There is a place for that, CA and Workshop.
Otherwise it's something that should be done via E-mail, ICQ or what ever the source may be.
Ok, that's JMO.




~Sheri

"The things that come to those that wait may be the things
left by those who got there first"




[This message has been edited by Irie (edited 10-10-2000).]
Irie
Senior Member
since 12-01-1999
Posts 1526
Washington State


19 posted 10-10-2000 03:33 PM       View Profile for Irie   Email Irie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Irie

Ok, here it is.
"The best poem you've ever read"
WayoutWalt in Voices. Posted 6-18.
If I could figure out how to post a link here, I would.  


~Sheri

"The things that come to those that wait may be the things
left by those who got there first"
Poertree
Senior Member
since 11-05-1999
Posts 1413
UK


20 posted 10-10-2000 03:34 PM       View Profile for Poertree   Email Poertree   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poertree

humppphh ...

s'not meant to be an advert ~sulk~

I know what Marilyn means as well but JP is right and for other reasons as well not least issues of volumes and time, the Open forum will never be a place where you can regularly expect what Marilyn calls "creative criticism"..... I'm not saying that is bad at all in fact i'm saying just the opposite ...

but that was no doubt why God and Doreen ......oops sorry RON, encouraged by Doreen, many eons ago created THE CRITICAL ANALYSIS FORUM ...... and on the seventh day he ... oops sorry wrong story again .....

from Marilyn:

  
quote:
The thing that bothers me at times is how we can not strive to better ourselves as poets and authors. Never in a million years would I encourage anyone to attack anothers writing but can we not be open to creative critism?


YES of course and the place to be it is ..boom ..boom... THE CRITICAL ANALYSIS FORUM......

people who want to better their writing go to CA and the Workshops, people (including me) go to Open for other things, I really can't see anything wrong with that.  Lots of choice, lots of people happy - so if bettering your writing is what you want Marilyn get yourself to THE CRITICAL ANALYSIS FORUM

~sigh~ it really isn't an advert Chris ...i'm just trying to be serious for once      



[This message has been edited by Poertree (edited 10-10-2000).]
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


21 posted 10-10-2000 03:48 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

ummm....

Marylin... you may want to proofread your last post -- it is full of spelling and grammatical errors...

lolol...

but yeah -- philip is right

(sung to the tune of green acres)

CA is the place to be
bad writing
will be mauled for free
blood letting
shall be practiced there
in this forum they'll
even insult your hair...

just kidding everybody -- it doesn't get vicious at all in there compared to some places I've been... they do a good job in there.. just don't say "good job" lol...  
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


22 posted 10-10-2000 05:02 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

LOL - ok Philip - then I'll attempt to follow you for a second. Realize this is something that's been hashed over and over as long as I've been here, and I'm sure before!    

requote -
quote:
The thing that bothers me at times is how we can not strive to better ourselves as poets and authors. Never in a million years would I encourage anyone to attack anothers writing but can we not be open to creative critism?


The BIGGEST problem with this statement my erstwhile friend, is that everyone writes for different reasons! Granted, many of us may have ideas of being published, or look for the personal satisfaction of improving our poetry... but there are also a lot of people who use it as a way to express themselves, period. (fullstop for you brits.   )

And then the socond thing we have to take into consideration, is what consists of an attack for each person. Some people put a considerable amount of time, effort and heart into their work. For them to hear that someone has a problem with it might very well constitute an attack for them. They've decided to share what to them is a finished work, and are possibly hurt when someone tells them there's something wrong with it.

A fairly smart man I know ( ) once told me that when someone is ready for "help" and "criticism." they'll let you know. Some just aren't prepared to deal with it. That's why we have places like (here we go Philip, I'm helping out here)... da - duh-da-dum Critical Analysis!

I know I'm just repeating that part, but it's a valid suggestion! If someone's truly interested in a place where the "quality" of the poetry is just as important as the feel of the "family," (Philip - I'm just not comfortable thinking about Brad as a cuddly bunny...) then that's the place!

Ok - I've spent a long time talking and saying nothing, so I think I'm going to go do... something.

Peace,

C
[edited because I fogot that a colon before the bracket for the quote thingy will make a sad face and mess up the whole quote thing!!!]




[This message has been edited by Christopher (edited 10-10-2000).]
Kit McCallum
Administrator
Member Laureate
since 04-30-2000
Posts 16920
Ontario, Canada


23 posted 10-10-2000 08:47 PM       View Profile for Kit McCallum   Email Kit McCallum   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kit McCallum

I normally don't venture into these discussions, but I tend to be coming from the same place as Rex on this issue. I know that certainly, had this place not held the warm family atmosphere that it does ... I would not have continued to be a part of it.
Someone in another thread was discussing the other sites where one can post poetry, and I do recall making the comment that if they are truly that harsh ... I'd have hung my head and crawled away after one post.  Personally, critical analysis is not my main focus (though you guys may convince me to try it yet, with all this advertising, LOL).  I did investigate a few other sites at the time, and was appalled at some of the comments to poetry. Clearly they are not the kind of place I could personally exist, but others do receive some type of satisfaction in that, which is fine if that is what they are looking for.

I, on the other hand, am one who writes as a form of therapy for myself (as Chris described above), and if something I write touches the heart of another, that is an added reward ... it sounds cliché, but it is true. Passions has given me the venue to widen my audience beyond friends, family and co-workers, for which I'm incredibly grateful. I've watched many poets grow and improve over time, and have been reading in the forums long before I was posting. Though I've been writing for 30 years, I still consider myself a novice, but I have personally written more poems in the last 6 months than I have in the last 6 years, and I can directly attribute this to the incredible encouragement I've received from my peers here in the Forums, be they long encouraging paragraphs, or a short "great job".  Looking back, I can clearly see that I have posted some that were not "my best", however those who took the time to give me an encouraging word nonetheless, kept me posting, and I appreciate each and every pat on the back, large or small.  I truly hope I am improving, and perhaps I will venture into CA when I am ready. In the meantime, some may think me naïve, but I will continue to feel that each response I receive is genuine, as I reciprocate my sincerity in every response I write.

I received a note from a reader on the main site just tonight, who commented on what an incredible site this was, and found myself extremely proud to respond and tell him about the wonderful family atmosphere behind the scenes, and I meant every word ... OK, so now enough of my cheerleading, I'm sorry, but I just love this place, I'll shut up now!  
Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 05-26-99
Posts 25869
Hurricane Alley


24 posted 10-10-2000 08:53 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

Kit! (handing over my spare pom poms) I know exactly what you mean!!

Give me a  P
Give me a  A
Give me an S
Give me an S
Give me an I
Give me an O
Give me an N
Give me an S

Yea!!! Passions!!!

 
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