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warmhrt
Senior Member
since 12-18-1999
Posts 1566


0 posted 08-05-2000 03:33 PM       View Profile for warmhrt   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for warmhrt

Hello,

I have decided to permanently leave the forum due to two main reasons. The "Book" would be a good idea, but I totally disagree with the manner in which the choice of material is being conducted.

Secondly, back in June, I requested from the site owner that I be able to add to a thread that was locked. It was about suicide, and I had a poem I felt would be of help. The answer I recieved was negative, but he did tell me that he wanted to add a section on depression/suicide, and asked if I would be willing to handle it. He told me that it would be "my" section of the forum.

I wrote twice before recieving a vague answer to my questions about it, but told him I would love to do it. I specifically asked if he was going ahead with it, as if he was not, I would stop gathering information. I have not heard one word from him since then. I don't know if the offer was genuine, or meant to pacify me. I do know that I cannot stay in a forum where you cannot rely on what the head honcho says.

I have enjoyed my stay, and all of the people I've met, and the friends I've made. I have my own site where I will be putting my new material.

Thanks to all who have been friendly, helpful, and downright sweet,

Kris


[This message has been edited by warmhrt (edited 08-05-2000).]
Elizabeth
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 06-07-99
Posts 7296
America the beautiful


1 posted 08-05-2000 04:11 PM       View Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Elizabeth's Home Page   View IP for Elizabeth

I'm sorry to hear about this, Kris. You will be missed! I'll be sure to stop by your web site to check out your new poems.

Best of luck,
Elizabeth


Why ME???
jbouder
Member Elite
since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


2 posted 08-05-2000 04:27 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Kris:

I suppose this is the forum to get some of this out in the open.  I hope you withdraw your decision to discontinue posting here.  

Ron:

I understand Kris's displeasure with the method used to select poetry for the book ... it is a little more difficult for those who post primarily in smaller forums to get the exposure that will generate votes.  It follows, in my thinking, that many high quality poems are slipping through the cracks.  

Allowing members to cast their votes probably works most of the time and, without a doubt, there will be plenty of quality poems in the book but it would be naive to deny that many people are voting for their friends, rather than voting for their friends' poems, when a vote is cast.  I'm sure you've given thought to this already ... just wondering if you have any ideas on how (or if) you are planning to deal with it.

As far as a "darker" forum is concerned, if such a forum is in the works, I would highly recommend Kris to moderate/co-moderate it.  Her professional background and common sense would be assets to such a forum.

Back to Kris:

You can't leave yet ... you haven't turned in your Double Sestina.

Jim
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


3 posted 08-05-2000 04:49 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Actually, Kris, when you didn't answer my last letter I figured my clarifications didn't ride well with what you had in mind. I figured you were no longer interested.

Here is an exact copy of what I sent, including the date I sent it:

Subject: Re: Depression
   Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 11:47:12 -0400
   From: Ron Carnell
     To: Crisco1avs@aol.com

Crisco1avs@aol.com wrote:
>
> Dear Ron,
>
> I hope I'm not bugging you, but I did not receive a reply to my last e-mail.
>
> Is this forum or section still an idea? If so, I can prepare more. If not, I
> would really like to know, so I can stop gathering info.
>
> Sincerely,
> Kris

Kristine, I apologize for the delay. As I mentioned in my last Forum
News, I'm not spending as much time online this week as I normally
would. And what time I do have seems to be spent responding to questions
about the book.

Yes, it is definitely something I would like to pursue if you're
interested. Unfortunately, judging from your last email, I fear I wasn't
as clear as I should have been. This is NOT a forum, which I agree with
you probably wouldn't succeed very well, at least not within the context
of a poetry setting. And the last thing I want to encourage is a lot of
discussion about suicide. I was thinking more in terms of articles,
linked from both the forums and the main site, a section where people
could learn more about what depression is and what it isn't. And, of
course, ways to help. I think one of the biggest hurdles people face is
realizing they are not alone, not unusual, not simply weak-minded people
who can't cope. I'm certainly open to suggestions on the best way to
present the material, but I would REALLY like to present it.  )

I'm occupied with an out-of-state quest this weekend, and I'll be
teaching a tech seminar most of next week. I'll try to give you better
idea of what I'm thinking at my first opportunity. And I look forward to
any suggestions you might have on such a project.

Ron




As for selection of the poems within the book, my initial reaction is to simply remind everyone that participation is voluntary and entirely separate from participation in the forums. Honestly, though, I know that initial reaction is more frustration speaking than anything else.

I really, really wish everyone would reserve judgement until the selection process has proven itself one way or the other. People might just discover they are giving far too little credit to those who post - and vote - within these forums.
X Angel
Senior Member
since 11-07-1999
Posts 1592
Oregon


4 posted 08-05-2000 04:50 PM       View Profile for X Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for X Angel

KRIS!!!
Awww I'm unhappy that you're unhappy sweets! Let's see if we can fix this eh? There oughta be a fairly simple solution. I really love your poetry, when I can get into CA to read that is...and would miss you sorely. Please reconsider????
*hugs*
~Heather
jbouder
Member Elite
since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


5 posted 08-05-2000 05:09 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Ron:

Not sure what you mean by "reserving judgement".  I've made some observations and I asked a couple questions in the spirit of heading off potential problems I thought might arise down the road.  I suppose you might say it is the project manager in me that prefers preventing fires to putting them out (ever dealt with an insurance adjuster? *gasp*).

But, hey, it's your book (not being trite, here ... honestly).  I'll buy a copy (or two) nomatter what.  

Jim
Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 05-20-99
Posts 24426
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


6 posted 08-05-2000 05:37 PM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

Kris - You don't know Ron very well - He gives unselfishly of his time to this wonderful site - He's single-handedly made it what it is - He sincerely cares about each and every poet who enters these Passionate walls - including you...

As far as the book is concerned - "Fair" should be his middle name... You'll all see that if you can manage to reserve judgment until the voting is complete - Count on it... I too hope you stay around, Kris - Your poetry is a wonderful addition to Passions. It's your choice, of course..

Well, H... I really try to keep my big mouth shut... I'm not always successful....

and Jim... I was married to an insurance adjuster.... "Gasp" is surely nuff said...
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


7 posted 08-05-2000 05:41 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Jim, there's nothing wrong with questions or observations about the book. That's why I opened a whole forum just to deal with them, and I don't think there's a single thread in that forum where I didn't try to respond (if only with "I don't know, yet"). My remark was more directed at Kristine, who cited the book as her number one reason for leaving.

I don't know if the voting process is going to work or not. I've seen the preliminary results, and I'm very encouraged by what I've seen. There are, indeed, a relative handful of authors who probably will not make it into the book. I hope they use that as motivation to improve their craft and, perhaps, to approach our next project with less carelessness - because most of those who didn't get enough votes really didn't put much effort into their work. If any one of them asked for help with presentation - spelling, grammar, etc. - and didn't receive it, I'd like to hear about it. We will get them help, if I have to do it myself.

On the other hand, there is also going to be a lot of really great poetry that won't be included in Voices. Not because they didn't get votes, but because the rules I set up makes it tough for a poet to get more than one poem published. There were a bit over 2,000 poems submitted, meaning we have enough material for five or six books. Obviously, some good poems won't make it. But I sincerely think every good poet will, even if every good poem doesn't.
X Angel
Senior Member
since 11-07-1999
Posts 1592
Oregon


8 posted 08-05-2000 06:13 PM       View Profile for X Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for X Angel

Ron, yanno something? I like you. I like the way you think. I like the way you answer people. I like how you handle tough situations. (You a politician? kiddin kiddin)

It's all good *wink*
And hang the book anyways (I s'pose you could always call the whole thing off to placate the naysayers?)
but on the other hand...ain't poetry about writing? I didn't see being published as a prerequisite for writing....tis only an added bonus if it happens. And if I don't make it in the dratted book...then I will yank myself up by the bootstraps (after 3 cartons of cappuccino delight fudge ripple ice cream and a day watching soaps) and humbly ask Nan for some grammar lessons!
'Nuff said dere too'

LOL who knows what this has to do with Kris..I still want her to stay tho'
*pleading on knees*
PWEEEEEEEEASSSSSEEEEEEE KRRRRIIIISSSSSSYYYY!
;P~*
stay dang it! Don't make me come over there!
warmhrt
Senior Member
since 12-18-1999
Posts 1566


9 posted 08-05-2000 06:19 PM       View Profile for warmhrt   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for warmhrt

Ron,

If you read the sentence, "I'll try to give you better idea of what I'm thinking at my first opportunity.", what would you assume?

I would assume that I should wait until I hear from this person about his ideas before I respond, and that: the person has not had an opportunity to do so; the person has forgotten about it; the person really doesn't have much interest in the proposed idea; the person is busy, yes, and unorganized, and should get a good secretary; the proposal was not genuine in the first place; or the writer of that sentence is remiss in not doing what he stated he would do, and owes the person to whom that sentence was directed an extremely large apology?

Hmmmmmmmmm...which one could it be, or could it be almost all of the above?

Kris
Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 05-20-99
Posts 24426
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


10 posted 08-05-2000 06:38 PM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

umm.... Ron was really pretty busy that week...

... and since then, keeping Ceres running for all of us has been the number one priority... Let's consider that, shall we?

Perhaps a comfortable solution/compromise could be met by openly communicating... without concern for "winning" a rhetorical debate...
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


11 posted 08-05-2000 06:49 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Definitely NOT all of the above, Kris.

This person is a bit busy and very disorganized, granted. The person certainly is occasionally remiss, if only through oversight or (in this case) assumptions (I really did expect to hear your ideas, too, especially after I "changed direction" from what you thought I meant). And in any possible case, the  person certainly owes an extremely large apology.

I really am sorry, Kristine, for the misunderstanding. But it seems you were making assumptions, too. Because the person didn't forget it and was able to respond to this thread so quickly because he had the email marked for attention. And because the person most assuredly has an interest in the proposed idea and it was very genuinely made. (Others might confirm for you, I don't try to placate people.) Indeed, I'll go you one better. I made a comment in the Moderator's forum that this was one of my highest priorities, and I very much meant it. The taboos against suicide posts at Passions exist because I don't believe any of us have the training to insure we don't do more harm than good, and NOT because I don't believe it's an important - even vital - issue. About eight or nine months ago, I wrote over a hundred letters, trying to get a trained therapist interested in becoming involved with Passions. To no avail. But that doesn't mean I've surrendered.

Kris, I apologize. Kris, I very much want Passions to be able to help those who so obviously need it. And Kris - I think maybe you do, too?
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


12 posted 08-05-2000 07:55 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Ok, Now I have a really big problem with you Kris...

I'm the only one allowed to give Ron headaches by arguing with him!!!



I mean, geez... what good am I for, if someone else can do it???  
RainbowGirl
Member Elite
since 07-31-99
Posts 3167
United Kingdom


13 posted 08-05-2000 08:11 PM       View Profile for RainbowGirl   Email RainbowGirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit RainbowGirl's Home Page   View IP for RainbowGirl

Sweetheart:  I have chosen to reply before reading the replies and I'll explain why ...

I agree that suicide is one of the most profound actions that you will ever come across but it can also be a thought/action that puts another in an impossible position...

I too have had many a debate on this question and also have a little experience in the subject...

Here's my take on it, like it or not..    

When you can be face to face with someone contemplating this action, they do without doubt fall into 2 categories, the oblivious and the logical...

The oblivious can see no hope whatsoever and believe that no amount of reasoning can ever sway their minds but they also are likely to respond to love, support and a basic need that has since been ignored...i.e. a cry for help...

The logical tend to be those that are terminally ill or truly believe their life has no worth to anyone and whatever you do, the choice will always be theirs....listening will always help but you are, powerless...

I would really love to help all those that have such thoughts because I know that time and talking can change a thought but I also know that some use it as blackmail...

I guess there is no simple answer but what I or anyone else would hope to avoid is to glorify what amounts to an act of cowardness because it takes much courage to confront your fears, see hell out and heaven in...and is it never easy...

But trust me, I doubt there are many regulars on this forum who don't care and who haven't entertained the thought of life going against them, I'll go further than that and state there has been once or twice when I felt limited in my views on life but life is different from one minute to the next and so am I...

I guess that doesn't make a whole lot of sence but you don't need anyone to ok it for you to listen, you do that anyway but it would be impossible to open up a samaritans board here within Passions and if that happened, how many of us would sleep at night? How many would end up feeling depressed and suicidal themselves because they were unable to help and felt like failures?...Too many, because we all care, sometimes too much....

Please don't think decisions are taken because of lack of caring because in truth, they are taken because people care TOO MUCH !

Take care and keep caring...

HUGS



[This message has been edited by RainbowGirl (edited 08-05-2000).]
warmhrt
Senior Member
since 12-18-1999
Posts 1566


14 posted 08-05-2000 09:28 PM       View Profile for warmhrt   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for warmhrt

Christopher,

We could share in the aggravation. Two minds.......
hmmmmmmm, whadya say?

Kris


Cindy,

I appreciate your stating your opinion, and yes, suicide is a subject that has to be handled with very much care. The proposed section, not forum, was not intended to glorify anything. It would be there to educate, to inform, and to give people options. Please check out the "Dedications" page on my site. I think you will see that I know of what I speak.
http://members.theglobe.com/sunnsette/poetry

Thanks, Cindy,
Kris


Teach!

I have no idea how to write a double sestina, and don't think that I want to know. YOU never wrote your epic for the workshop...something you signed up to do!    

Later,
Kris


Ron,

I accept your apology, thank you, and I agree that I possibly made an incorrect assumption.

I am interested in doing anything I possibly can in my chosen field, to help those who are crying out, or those who just want to understand. I really would have not much to say about how this would be added to the forums, as I am barely computer literate (ask Jim how slow I type).  Ask me to write a protocol for a didactic class in mental health, and I could do that in a flash, on paper...computers are fairly new to me. So you can see why I assumed you would get back to me, as you said you would. As X said, you do have that "political" tendency and you turn things around a bit, but I'm used to dealing with rhetoric.
So how 'bout we just shake hands, and put it behind us; I don't want to waste any more words or space in the forum.

Respectfully, and hope there is repect in return,
Kris


the poet's pen...gives to airy nothing
A local habitation and a name ~ Shakespeare





[This message has been edited by warmhrt (edited 08-05-2000).]
jbouder
Member Elite
since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


15 posted 08-05-2000 09:47 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Kris:

If you remember correctly, I was trying to open a new hotel at the time the epic assignment was due.  I'm still trying to catch up with my moderating duties but I PROMISE it will be done.    

As far as the double sestina end-word format goes, e-mail Pete and he can send it to you.  I used a mathmatical formula to come up with most of the end-word format but Pete came up with the solution to make it a "pure" double sestina with no end-word repeats.  Okay ... here is the URL (I'll save you an email):

http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum22/HTML/000087.html

Now that you've committed to write a double sestina (okay ... you didn't commit but consider this a double-dog dare), I suppose you are staying with us ... right?  Don't make me beg ... it is not a pretty sight.  

Jim
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


16 posted 08-05-2000 10:07 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

I want to see Jim beg!!!  
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


17 posted 08-05-2000 11:12 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Sounds good, Kris. I'll email you and we'll see if there's any way to coordinate something between a "barely computer literate" woman and a man who knows absolutely nothing about your field.  
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


18 posted 08-06-2000 01:45 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

See? Ron just completely ignored me! I feel so left out.. like the red-headed step child! (no offense to anybody with red hair who has a step parent...)

Two minds... you could be in trouble Ron, you know that, right?

Mail me Kris... I already have the base plans for world domination (stole them from some teens. They had them in their bug and were driving away... I caught them on my bike... ) which we can modify to give Ron much bigger headaches!
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


19 posted 08-06-2000 02:42 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Abe, I thought you told me you had Chris under control? You promised me he was going to start taking his medications again.
RainbowGirl
Member Elite
since 07-31-99
Posts 3167
United Kingdom


20 posted 08-06-2000 04:54 AM       View Profile for RainbowGirl   Email RainbowGirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit RainbowGirl's Home Page   View IP for RainbowGirl

Kris, I went to your site and read your bio and it's now bookmarked..   I look forward to seeing what you and Ron can come up with..

HUGS

"If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost;
that is where they should be.
Now put the foundations under them."

Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 05-20-99
Posts 24426
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


21 posted 08-06-2000 06:57 AM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

Hey Christopher... I give Ron a headache too... and I DON'T have to fight with him to do it...
warmhrt
Senior Member
since 12-18-1999
Posts 1566


22 posted 08-06-2000 09:47 AM       View Profile for warmhrt   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for warmhrt

Everyone,

I did not intend to start a "fight". I was just doing what this forum is intended for...
complaining, flaming, etc. I truly intended to leave, but if I am able to be of help to people in need... Also, when I communicate with the members here, it makes it very hard to leave. Most of you seem to be very good, caring people. I could esily leave, though, if I had enough reason to stand my ground. There is no threat intended there...I am just saying that I stand by what I believe.

Cindy,

The "Dedication" page, page 13 is the one I hoped you'd look at, but thanks for taking the time to look.  

Christopher,

Hmmmmm...I think we need to have a little talk. Can you say, 'Grandiose delusions?'  


Teach,

Even a double-dog dare couldn't get me to attempt to write one of those things. You're going to have to up the ante big time for me to even think about it.    

Kris
jbouder
Member Elite
since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


23 posted 08-06-2000 03:51 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Kris:

quote:
Even a double-dog dare couldn't get me to attempt to write one of those things. You're going to have to up the ante big time for me to even think about it.  


Okay ... but you asked for it ... I double-do-deca-dog dare you to write a double-sestina (to my knowledge, only two other people in the history of the Western world ... A. Charles Swinburne and Kess ... have written a double sestina).  What's da matter ... are you scared?  

Also, Christopher's picture that he uses in his profile is from the cover of the "Advanced Studies in Delusional Mental Phenomena" text-book used in many places of higher education.  (And Chris ... you seeing me beg would be delusional also).    Just havin' fun with you Chris.

Jim

P.S.  Kristine ... you have thirty days to complete that double sestina.  

RainbowGirl
Member Elite
since 07-31-99
Posts 3167
United Kingdom


24 posted 08-06-2000 05:05 PM       View Profile for RainbowGirl   Email RainbowGirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit RainbowGirl's Home Page   View IP for RainbowGirl

Kris, I did read the dedications page but I was also saying I had bookmarked your site so that I may go back and read all the other pages as well, i.e. not a one off visit..  

HUGS

ps: We don't fight in here, we know each too well so we just wind each other up..*g* well Chris tries...LOL

[This message has been edited by RainbowGirl (edited 08-06-2000).]
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