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Passions in Poetry

Frankly, I'm disheartened

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RainbowGirl
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0 posted 07-18-2000 07:25 PM       View Profile for RainbowGirl   Email RainbowGirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit RainbowGirl's Home Page   View IP for RainbowGirl

I know Ashley Cain's subject may appear to be off limits but tell me, please tell me, where else a youngster has to go to get an opinion where he or she isn't considered to be an adult and where he or she can talk in a comfortable manner...

I hate, I really do hate to cross you both, Nan and Ron but I have memories where as a youngster I had NO ONE who would listen to me as an intellgent, although youthful person, if I had, maybe I would never have made the mistake(s) that I made, instead, I may have grown up to be a loving, wise and kind yet optimistic and 'here to listen' kind of person, I'm going to blow our own trumpet here, yes, this is not a sex board, yes, this is a poetry site but for heavens sake, don't we encourage talking about feelings here, emotions, subjects that make you sick to your stomach, subjects that make you smile and reach out and hug because we ALL care....

To abandon a subject because it is not to your taste, is letting people down...I'm sad, because I do care, I remember me as a young person looking for understanding and before anyone says it, as an adult I found superb understanding in both Ron and Nancy, both of whom are so compassionate, so totally loveable and so complete as human beings, but WE are not ALL complete, some of us are sadly lacking and need to talk about matters which confuse us...

Sorry, I hate to think that someone got turned away because it simply wasn't to our taste...and further more, I think, I hope, there must be more to it....

I just cannot imagine saying to a child (should I be so lucky) I don't like what you say, so I'm deleting any further discussion, in fact it reminds me of my father and I loved him to bits but he could have helped by being open minded!

Guess I'll go and turn off a few phones, after all, I don't like half the subjects that come up, so it's easy, just put the phone down, terminate it, it simply never happened!

Is it really that easy?  Is your life that simple or do you appreciate the talks, the advice, the care...I know I do......

I'm angry and I'll tell you why...it somehow reminds me of "I'll love you if", I'll care if only you'll adhere to MY rules"...surely, surely to God, we all have better hearts, can't we just listen and even if we don't like the subject, is it not better to say nothing or perhaps..."I can't comment" or just to not reply...but to close it off like it never mattered, like it wasn't worth the time to took for someone to write...I feel like oneday I could be screwed up newspaper...and I just know that isn't how it was meant but I read it and responded...and that for me is sad.....


[This message has been edited by RainbowGirl (edited 07-18-2000).]
Elizabeth
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1 posted 07-18-2000 07:41 PM       View Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Elizabeth's Home Page   View IP for Elizabeth

I think it's more than the topic being not to their own, personal taste. Remember the suicide debate in the Philosophy forum? There are things that can truly make an impression on the reader and alter their decision-making. Therefore, they should not be posted in a public forum, simply because of the impressions they can make. It's not because they're closed-minded high-and-mighty people who think what they say or do is the Law.

Besides that, this is the type of topic that can grow beyond a discussion, into a war. Now, that's the last thing this site needs--it's the last thing any site needs. To echo Ron, maybe this should be discussed with a counselor or parent, and to echo myself, it just wasn't appropriate for this site.

Elizabeth


I'm grabbing my hat and coat
I'm leaving the cat a note
Quick call me a ferry boat-getting out of town!


RainbowGirl
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2 posted 07-18-2000 08:08 PM       View Profile for RainbowGirl   Email RainbowGirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit RainbowGirl's Home Page   View IP for RainbowGirl

Elizabeth:

I agree, so totally that these subjects can be over emotional, heck, just look at me...LOL...but, and I mean this....if, one cannot talk about frightening subjects or feelings that cause disharmony, then those feelings just grow and grow and eventually the author becomes silent...I do agree that this may or may not be the place to discuss them, and I know the harm that can come from these kind of debates but to simply close it off, I'm sorry, that simply isn't the way...maybe I'm not taking into consideration the emotional considerations behind that decision and yes, we are all human and have many different emotional responses that give us our eventual guidelines....I just think that suicide whilst should never and I mean NEVER be glorified, should however be discussed, solutions should be found and guidance should be offered...and as always, there is always a time and a place...and yes, I agree this is a poetry board but we do hear and read poems that talk of this situation, we do respond in caring ways with great advice, albeit meaningless at that time to the author becuase they simply don't think clearly, but this, was about soemthing we discuss, write about, ALL the time....

I'll tell you for nothing, as old as I am, as wise as I think I am, I have no more idea about buying or using a condom other than blowing up a baloon for a party...are we saying therefore, that is it ok to talk about part of a subject but not the whole...should I go off and seek instructions and then come and talk about love, because dare I say it, I think love or sharing is about care and condoms may prevent STD's but if you love, which matters most, showing love, giving love or ending your life prematurely because you cared enough to find a site that told you how to use ...well, you get my meaning, I'm sure...

The point is, all discussions should be available, I don't like some of what happened in Dark but it did, I just neglected to answser or when the whole subject came up, I offered my opinion, but you never close a subject without closing people off entirely and as people, under 18, under 16, surely the only limit should be conduct, not age?

Ooops, I rambled and I really don't mean to sound bad tempered, cause I'm not...honest indians..  

Ron: I've just reread your response and I ask just one question ...if you were Ashely's father, what would your answer be and the smae applies to you Nan, if you were Asheley's mum, what would you talk about...I'll lay odds on, you would both, talk, uncomfortable you may bem butI think your love of your children would surface in perhaps a way that neither of you would admit here, because damn it, you BOTH care, I know, I talked with both of you on ocassions and you both just care...may not have many answers but there is no way, either of you would say " this topic is closed !!!  Tell me I am wrong?

HUGS



[This message has been edited by RainbowGirl (edited 07-18-2000).]
Poet deVine
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3 posted 07-18-2000 08:30 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

I think issue of the other thread was that a teenager wanted 'personal advice'. If it was a general discussion, it may have been better. I wouldn't want someone on a public forum to tell my 15 year old daughter it's ok to have sex if you're in love...nor would I want them to tell her NOT to do it. That is MY job.

I understand where you are coming from. When I was a teenager, even oure parents were uncomfortable discussing sex. And we snickered at the idea when it was brought up in biology class.

Someone young and impressionable may read something we write here and think 'we've' given our permission. We are not in the position to do that.     

Hugs, RG!
RainbowGirl
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4 posted 07-18-2000 08:47 PM       View Profile for RainbowGirl   Email RainbowGirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit RainbowGirl's Home Page   View IP for RainbowGirl

Oh Sharon, don't get me wrong, we ALL love our children to bits, even those who have no children love other people's children to bits..   )

All I am saying is that people who discuss these matters ARE NOT children, the fact they discuss them says that but also they are not totally unaware of all of the implications, heck, I'm 42 and on a ratio I'm about 1...LOL...so are we saying that my age makes me suitable or intelligent enough to ask or discuss the subject?  Hell, I don't think so, I think more teenagers know more about this subject, know how to get on with their lives than I will ever do regardless of my age...

I guess in simple terms what I'm saying is that we, as adults learn from the younger generation and they, if treated with love and care and if we meet them halfway, then they too, can teach us a whole new way to live....

I will always listen, I may, however, not always agree but age, will never give me the right to .....I'm rambling again...*g*

I just think we can all learn - listen, love, talk and care and life will always be a pleasure...I know I'm not wrong, so I must be right...*g*

HUSG back



[This message has been edited by RainbowGirl (edited 07-18-2000).]
Ron
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5 posted 07-18-2000 09:04 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Cindy, I didn't close any thread because I was uncomfortable with the subject, but rather because I must respect the rights of the parents as well as those of the teens. Passions is one of the very few places on the Internet where teens and adults (sic) mingle on common ground. And I'd very much like to keep it that way. I try very hard to respect the rights - and the opinions - of our teenage Members, while still trying to maintain an atmosphere that will meet with the approval of their parents. I completely agree that we need to listen to the voices of the children. But don't we also have to listen to the parents?

I'm not na´ve, of course. I realize that not every parent is ready or able to assume the role of confidante and advisor. I know there is a vacuum in many cases, one that our compassionate and caring membership could possibly fill. But at what risk? Disney no longer allows anyone to join their web site under the age of twelve, without first supplying a credit card (insuring parental consent). Why? Because Congress, in their infinite wisdom, has decreed that children must be protected on the Internet, even if that protection eliminates all the good things as well as the bad. COPPA is just one law, the first of many, engendered by a majority of parents who clearly do not want web sites treating children as if they were adults. Are they wrong? I don't know (though I certainly have my opinions). But I do know they have the power to destroy Passions.

Even then, it might be worth the risk if there was the corresponding hope of accomplishing something good. But, as I indicated in my previous post, there is absolutely nothing you or I can say that will dissuade someone from what they've spent a lifetime learning at the feet of their parents. Read Ashley's post again, Cindy. She had already made up her mind and wasn't looking for discussion, but rather wanted confirmation. And that is something I cannot allow.

Suicide is another issue entirely, though I feel rather strongly the answer remains the same. I have repeatedly tried to find a trained therapists to take part in our forums, sadly without success. Failing that, I don't think suicide can be a valid discussion topic - because there ain't no one here qualified to discuss it. Our only possible response to suicidal thoughts is to repeatedly and adamantly encourage the person to seek professional help. We simply do not have the training to give advice or to nourish dependencies which can do more harm than good. Yes, we need to show we care (because we do). And the best way to show that, the ONLY responsible way to show that, is to steer the person to proper help.

Cindy, I understand your concern. I share it. But I sincerely believe there are times when the best way to help a person is to NOT give them what they want. We have a responsibility to recognize our limitations, to avoid reacting from the gut, to do what is right rather than what makes us feel good. And sometimes, maybe most of the time, that can leave us feeling very not good.

I'll tell you what I will do, though, Cindy. If any teen is willing to have their parents mail me their consent, I would be willing to put together a password protected equivalent of the Adult forum - but strictly for teens to explore adult issues. I will not willing let Passions usurp the role of the parent but, with their consent, I would gladly welcome the opportunity to augment it.

Teens? How many of you are willing?
Nan
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6 posted 07-18-2000 09:44 PM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

Of course I care, Cindy... I work with teenagers every day - and I see the devastating ramifications of this subject on a very personal level with my students. I've seen some pretty intense situations over the years.  

If a 15 yr old girl should approach me within the classroom with this subject, I wouldn't discuss it with her in front of the class.  I would speak with her privately, though... Even then, however, I would be very careful to keep my input supportive in a way that would be palatable to her parents.... and I might add - this would be a young person with whom I'm familiar.  (Ergo my reference to "new member" - I realize I wasn't clear about that).

I have to stand by my comment about this subject's being inappropriate for Passions, but I also have to acquiesce to Ron's assessment of my emotional reaction (Please don't tell him I did, though - OK?).

Working with these kids, I see them grow from 12 yr old pubescence to 18 yr old young adults... The years in between are really difficult ones for them.  I hear regular discussions among them about some pretty explicit scenarios.  They think they're mature - as we all did at the same age... Fortunately, the older we get, the more aware we become that we never really get a grasp on this subject, because emotion knows no logic - no matter what our age...

If there were any way at all that Passions could resolve this timeless dilemma, I'd be right there to lead the cheering squad... But we can't - This is much too personal an issue to be tossed into a public arena. Many of us have ICQ - just for the purpose of private discussions - Perhaps that's a good place for this to continue...



[This message has been edited by Nan (edited 07-18-2000).]
Nan
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7 posted 07-18-2000 09:48 PM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

There you go again, Ron - I didn't catch that last paragraph you wrote... Good plan - m'friend...
Gossamerwings
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8 posted 07-19-2000 12:39 AM       View Profile for Gossamerwings   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Gossamerwings

Sorry folks, but I agree with RainbowGirl. I too had to basically raise myself...no one to ask questions of...no one to get the answers that I desperately needed. I understand everyone else's viewpoint as well.You say you don't offer advice. Telling them to seek counciling, etc. is advice.You know that they are basically going to do what they want to do, but they desperately need someone else's input! Or they would not be asking!  I think it is a shame to be turned away.It is like discussions of suicide.If they ask...they need to talk..teenager or adult! You are not advocating suicide by talking about it, and you never know, the many voices here may change someones mind.Ashley Cain did not sound like a person asking for advice. Ashley Cain was demonstrating anger at what A.C. thought was unfair. To be sent away, had to have hurt as much, if not more!
IMHO and a newby...it is the way I feel. Not asking for advice or permissions...just saying that I am also disheartened!


Gossamerwings ;)
RainbowGirl
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since 07-31-99
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9 posted 07-19-2000 12:36 PM       View Profile for RainbowGirl   Email RainbowGirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit RainbowGirl's Home Page   View IP for RainbowGirl

Ron and Nancy:  Thanks for clarifying how you both viwed the situation with a bit more detail it does put a different slant on why you felt it necessary to close that particular thread off....

You both make many points, in particular you Ron and I'm thinking to myself wow on the Disney point...and I thought Disney was for children (this particular child anyhow..*g* )

I do understand that there is a danger in a parent or parents feeling that perhaps soemone is running interference and laying the blame on your doorstep, so to speak....but I think in two ways here, firstly if the teenager in question is asking those questions and not getting the answers from the parents or secondly, perhaps the teenagers don't feel comfortable asking their parents those kinds of questions or and I just thought of a third.. maybe the parents just don't want to know or maybe even would give their own slanted view on things, adults can have warped minds as we all know based on their own lives...hmmm, I think I went over three...LOL...so, having said all that, I worked on the basis that no question is ever a stupid one and that if asked it was valid although I do also appreciate that it sounded very aggresive and it was that really that got to me, why would someone feel or sound aggresive if they were happy, kind of contradictory to me....so I guess I did my usual thing and picked up on what was behind it rather than what was actually said....women, huh!!

I do appreciate you taking the time, both of you, I know you're both very busy but it was good to see and read why the decision was made and I'm laighing at the idea of me as a teenager asking my parents if could talk about adult scenarios on the internet, my mother's face would surely be carved in stone...ooops

Again, thanks, it is appreciated.. )

HUSG both

Gossamerwings:  I do know where you're coming from, sad to say but I guess Ron's post does change my reasoning a little or perhaps I should say, I understand his reasoning..

Thanks for your input

HUGS
Gossamerwings
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since 07-18-2000
Posts 210


10 posted 07-19-2000 03:55 PM       View Profile for Gossamerwings   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Gossamerwings

Yeh, me too...thats why I said
above that I understand their
view point as well...but hey,I
still think too damn many kids
are getting a crappy deal.

Sorry, but I ran across this
post in the midst of writing an
article on parents that don't
'listen'.They think because they
'hear'that it is enough.It is not even
the same thing!

Enjoyed the talk and opinions here.


Gossamerwings ;)
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