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Passions in Poetry

Just a wee bit 'o steam

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Christopher
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Member Rara Avis
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Purgatorial Incarceration


0 posted 04-26-2000 03:17 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

I know this issue's been broached before, (I believe by Cindy and it's been quite some time,) but I want to know why people seem to automatically assume that when ( I ) write something, it's my reality?

Not that I don't write from the heart, from experience... of today or yesterday. But I also write "what if's," "when's," and "maybe's." Should, we "assume," that when someone writes a poem that it is a representation of their life at its current state, or even their life period?

And, to meld two subjects into one-

Why does it seem that there are MANY, people who don't even "read" the poems posted before making a reply? For a point of reference, (sorry Claire-) Meadowmuse's "In The Folds."   Note the poem, then note the replies. To me, it appears as if those people replying didn't really reach for the meaning of the poem. They perhaps noted a pretty format and large letters and assumed that it was a happy poem. Such is not the case I think. To me, that's worse than not replying at all. (You) are giving out false praise which means nothing. It's almost demeaning in my eyes to do such.

Ok, I've griped enough for one day... I haven't had the chance to let it out for a while.

Peace out!  

Meadowmuse
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since 12-27-1999
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1 posted 04-26-2000 07:08 AM       View Profile for Meadowmuse   Email Meadowmuse   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Meadowmuse's Home Page   View IP for Meadowmuse

Chris, hi and thank you for the note this morning. You know, I would like to think that folks actually do read each poem that they reply to. I know that I do. Perhaps that is why I don't get as many replies posted as I would like.   At any rate, I sometimes get the feeling that my work isn't being understood, but it's possible that my meaning is "disguised" somewhat by the pretty words. You know, that's just my "style," if you will, for the most part, anyway. Last night (well, this morning) when I read your reply to "In the Folds" I couldn't help but think to myself, "Finally...someone understands." although I believe both Sven and  Rosemary had touched on the issue of unspoken sadness in their replies. Honestly, I think that it has a lot to do with my style of writing. Maybe it's simply easy to misinterpret, especially if one is reading quickly and not "digging" too deeply under the pretty surface.
   Oh, and a question...do my postings show up in large font on your machine?? When I code the html, I code it as font size="4"...and on my machine it comes out rather small and delicate, which is what I want. If it's coming across as large, please let me know so I can figger out how to modify it so the html gives the desired effect. Thanks Chris, for everything.

Oh, and Good Morning.  

~ Claire
Mike
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since 06-19-99
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2 posted 04-26-2000 09:31 AM       View Profile for Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mike

I have very carefully avoided making responses to certain comments in Passions. I have also learned it is best to avoid responding when you realize the response might elicit negative reaction.  But this one just grates me the wrong way.  I am going to take a hiatus for awhile so I don't say anything further.  
Mike
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since 06-19-99
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3 posted 04-26-2000 09:35 AM       View Profile for Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mike

And I am doing what I said I would not, but Christopher's post REALLY grates me the wrong way.  Off to contemplate.
Denise
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4 posted 04-26-2000 10:16 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I didn't see any replies to Claire's poem that gave me the impression that the meaning wasn't clear. A pain filled poem can indeed be called 'beautiful' or 'beautifully done', 'exquisite', 'excellent', etc. I always 'feel' a poem that is well done. I don't think that stating that it is 'beautiful', excellent' or even replying with a simple 'WOW' to such a poem is a contradiction or an idication that the message or meaning was lost. I, for one, am grateful for anyone who takes the time to read and reply to anything that I write, especially with so many choices given to the reader. I'm sure Claire feels the same way. Again, I don't see any replies that I would consider superficial or indicate a lack of understanding of what the poem was conveying. Of course, this is just my opinion. This grated me the wrong way too, as it did Mike. Perhaps because I sense that replies are being 'read into', judged as to whether they are 'worthy' responses? I don't get it, I really don't.

Denise

[This message has been edited by dsnyder (edited 04-26-2000).]
jbouder
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5 posted 04-26-2000 12:02 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Guys:

I don't think it is necessary for people to be "grated" the wrong way by Christopher's post.  As I see it, he has a legitimate point but I'm not sure how far his indignation is going to get him.  Brad and I continuously struggle with the depth of the critiques in CA (in order for CA to do what CA should do some measure of depth in the feedback to the poets submitting their work is essential).  

I don't think that it is necessary that Open Poetry demand a similar level of attention, although it certainly wouldn't hurt the poet's growth in skill to do something as seemingly insignificant of relating to the poet WHY you thought the poem was poignant or WOW or whatever.  That would, I think, give the poet more of an idea of what works for people and what doesn't so that their next poem is better than their last.

I read Meadowmuse's (Claire's) poem (excellent poem, btw) and would have to agree with Christopher that some of the replies hinted that those making the replies either didn't soak in the poem's meaning or didn't say why the poem evoked an "exquisite", "poignant" or "wow" from them.

Denise and Mike, try not to take this personally because I am intending these as very general statements and I am not pointing fingers or criticizing of any one  person.  Denise, you are absolutely right that some people are satisfied knowing that someone read his/her poem and that is fine (I, personally, am not satisfied by this and that is why I spend the vast majority of my time in CA).  

Both of you guys, don't confuse "sincerity" of a reply with "quality" of a reply.  I think it is difficult to measure sincerity (I don't question the sincerity of anyone here) but quality is measurable by its benefit to the poet.  A simple reply has very simple benefits ... improving confidence, providing people with the satisfaction that their poem is read, etc..  The more detailed the reply, the more benefits there are to the poet.  If my sonnet has horrible meter and all of the replies are kept very general then it is not likely that my grasp of meter will get immediate attention.  I think Christopher is addressing the "quality" of the replies and I don't think he is questioning their "sincerity".  JMHO.

Just my long-winded opinion on the matter.

Jim
Denise
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6 posted 04-26-2000 12:42 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I'm not confusing 'sincerity' with 'quality', Jim. I don't doubt anybody's sincerity, either. In-depth replies, if desired by a poet, can certainly be had in CA, as you have indicated, and there is certainly a place for that type of response. There are as many reasons for posting poems as there are poets, I'm sure. Some poets, perhaps the majority, just want to share their thoughts and words with others. I see nothing wrong with giving the 'why' a poem touched a person but I don't think that it is necessary either. My replies are from my heart and with time constraints I can't usually give an in-depth but I want to let the writer know that I read it and enjoyed it or that it touched me in some way. To me, that is better than not replying at all. I don't think there is anything more disheartening to a writer than not getting any feedback. I'm not comfortable at all with the fact that my replies to others are being critiqued. Just the thought makes me wary of replying at all. Perhaps it's just me, but I don't like it.

Denise

[This message has been edited by dsnyder (edited 04-26-2000).]
jbouder
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7 posted 04-26-2000 01:30 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Denise:

I'm glad we agree on the quality thing.  No reply is, obviously, of no help to the poet.  A short, sincere reply is of some help and, generally speaking, a more indepth reply is of greater assistance still.  Time is most definitely a factor and I suppose, as frequent repliers, we all must decide what we want to accomplish.  I do, by the way, appreciate your replying to all of the poems I can remember posting in Open Forum.

As far as your discomfort on having your critiques critiqued, I would suggest that you try to develop a thick skin (I've received hate mail, on occasion, resulting from my critiques in CA).  If you believe in what you are doing, who cares what others think, right?  

Jim

P.S.  I don't think Christopher was singling anybody out by his comments.
Denise
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8 posted 04-26-2000 01:57 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Yes, I know Christopher wasn't singling out anyone in particular with this post. I just think his assertion or assumption that it seems that the poems are not being 'read' is erroneous. I don't get that impression from the replies to this particular poem. As far as my replies (I don't critique very well, I'll leave that to you guys in CA   ) they are just that, my replies to the poet and don't need to be commmented on by anyone else but to whom they were directed, in my opinion. I've never had a thick skin and have never had success in trying to develop one. I don't envy you at all with the hate mail thing.

p.s. you should post more often in Open. You are an excellent poet! Due to time constraints I can't say anything more than that! *giggles*

Denise
Mike
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9 posted 04-26-2000 04:30 PM       View Profile for Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mike

I apologize when I indicated I would not be responding further.  But on reflection, I feel it best be known why I object to the post and why I feel it is best I take a hiatus.
I find the originating post condescending and showing a degree of arrogance towards those who reply in Open.  I in no way took it as a personal affront, because I feel fairly comfortable in my ability to comprehend what a poet is attempting to express.  Christopher finds the replies in Open at times almost demeaning.  I find his post demeaning.


[This message has been edited by Mike (edited 04-26-2000).]
Craig
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10 posted 04-26-2000 04:36 PM       View Profile for Craig   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Craig

Christopher

I think the reason a lot of people read a poem as a statement or description of the writers feelings or life is pretty simple, so simple I’m amazed you haven’t worked it out yourself.    
Those people, who you seem to think slightly dizzy for missing the point, have in fact picked up all the points, decided that the things the writer was writing about were so believable and real, so indiscernible from reality that it makes no difference, they actually believe that the poem is a reflection of real life.
‘A reflection of real life’, if I were to attempt to capture the essence of a poem in a couple of paragraphs I can guarantee that that statement would crop up at least once.  Now I’ve often taken on the mantle of fool ( with just cause some may add ), and I’ll admit I’m not the brightest pebble on the beach. That said, I’ll take a stab in the dark and lay my money on the fact that anyone who is writing serious poetry is writing it in the hope that someone, anyone, will find it believable and hoping that, at the very least, the reader approaches the poem willing to be convinced.

Your second point is less an ailment and more a statement or symptom of what the forums are about. Jim stated that he, and Brad, want more in-depth replies in the CA forum, that makes total sense when you look at what the CA forum is there for. It’s very existence relies on people giving honest, ( perhaps sometimes misguided but always honest ), opinions on the poems they read there. The open is a different kettle of fish entirely, in depth replies in the open can, by the general nature of the forum, only be restricted to the positive aspects of a poem posted. If I’m incorrect in this assumption then why do we have a CA forum?
There are also other aspects of the open forum to take into consideration, one of which is that some of the people posting there are involved in social interactively, poetry is just the thing that brings them together. To those people ‘Great poem’ is just another way of cementing a social bond, sort of like dogs sniffing as they meet each other but a little more acceptable.  That isn’t to say that a short reply can’t really mean anything though. I read the thread you are using as an example, I couldn’t find any replies that could be taken as people missing the point. What I did find were several examples of what could be described as literary applause, picture the scene you’re at a poetry recital and the reader finishes his final piece do you; A) Start giving an in depth account of the last poem recited; B) Start throwing bottles and tables or C) Give the guy a round of applause?
Wow, to me at any rate is a round of applause, the person that’s giving that applause generally liked what he/she heard and took the time to respond. Granted it doesn’t tell you where you were good or where you were weak but if you want to know that go ask the in depth fanatics and bottle throwers over at CA.    
All these things married to the fact that some people are short of time, short of words or just plain shy makes the replies what they are. Reading deep meanings into the replies, for example that all the people who read that poem and replied didn’t understand it, are simply statements that, although possible, are I think, highly improbable.

Thanks for giving me the chance to read and reply

Craig




[This message has been edited by Craig (edited 04-26-2000).]
Craig
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11 posted 04-26-2000 05:12 PM       View Profile for Craig   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Craig

Mike

Before you go making any decisions that could seriously affect my reading pleasure I hope you’ll give Christopher the chance to clarify what could be purely a misunderstanding of meaning or intent. Sometimes short written remarks can be misconstrued or when written in haste lose the infliction and meaning that the writer wanted to get across. Then again sometimes people put their foot in their mouths and  after serious contemplation graciously remove it or at least sugar it to make it more palatable. Either way waiting for a response seems like a good idea, look at it as a deferred hiatus (sounds painful).  

Craig


 Yes, I admit your general rule. That every poet is a fool:
But I myself may serve to show it. That every fool is not a poet.


jbouder
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12 posted 04-26-2000 05:15 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Craig:

"Granted it doesn’t tell you where you were good or where you were weak but if you want to know that go ask the in depth fanatics and bottle throwers over at CA."

Let it be known that all of the indepth fanatics in CA have the common decency of making certain the bottles are empty before we throw them.       LOL @ dogs sniffing, by the way ... if I were you I'd watch out for bottle throwing from directions other than from CA.

Later.

Jim


Craig
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13 posted 04-26-2000 05:27 PM       View Profile for Craig   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Craig


Jim

Just to sugar my unpalatable foot I’d like to unreservedly apologize to all the sniffers at passions, be they canine or otherwise.  

btw exactly how many bottles of perfume do you ‘guys’ get through in a week over there in CA.  


 Yes, I admit your general rule. That every poet is a fool:
But I myself may serve to show it. That every fool is not a poet.


Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


14 posted 04-26-2000 08:55 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Craig,
Are you trying to piss off everybody?   I'm not worried about my canine affinities, but perfume bottles? Geez, I have a reputation to uphold.  

I think this whole thread is pretty funny actually.  When I read Christopher's first post, I suspected something like this would happen but isn't this what the Alley is all about? He saw a trend that disturbed him and he brought it up for discussion.  Is this arrogant or demeaning to other people?

I don't think it's anymore demeaning then the occasional calls for more posting or that were nothing more than several cliques or that it was better in the old days (interestingly enough, haven't seen those complaints lately -- perhaps, we're moving away from that but more towards Christopher's complaint).

As for the example poem: I agree with Denise in that the replies to this particular poem can be interpreted either way but that would be my complaint (but I'm one of those in depth fanatic 'guys'  ).

We come here for different reasons, and the only way this can be taken as arrogant, in my opinion, is if Christopher were indeed taking on the mantle of the person who knows more than others rather than simply expressing an opinion or a gripe.  Poems are 'misread', poems are hastily read, and poems are left unread in every forum here by somebody -- what's the big deal for a general call to try to read more carefully?

Arrogance takes on many forms here and not only from those of us who want a little bit more in a response to a poem (which is certainly no reason to feel arrogant) -- I think it comes with the territory.

Thanks for listening,
Brad
Meadowmuse
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15 posted 04-26-2000 09:42 PM       View Profile for Meadowmuse   Email Meadowmuse   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Meadowmuse's Home Page   View IP for Meadowmuse

On behalf of my little simple self, I would just like to say that I gratefully appreciate and welcome any and all comments regarding the poetry I post at Passions. I am not what one would consider a "regular" but I so enjoy the sharing of poetic ideas and such. Nor am I, by any mental stretch, an intellectual and I don't require intellectual responses to make me feel that my poem is worth reading. When I expressed earlier in this thread my delight at Chris' reply to my poem, it was simply because I really do feel as though my work can be, at times, somewhat difficult to understand. Perhaps it is the flowery language I find myself using. Perhaps I am just too vague. Could be that I'm too chicken to post in Critical Analysis because I don't have the strong constitution that I feel it would require. Regardless, I love it when someone merely takes the time to say, "Claire I enjoyed your poem." I try to get into Passions at least once a day to read and respond to as much as I can, and though I don't post as many poems as most, I so enjoy the creative exchanges taking place there.

Thanks for reading.

~ Claire

 Could a greater miracle take place than for us to look through each other's eyes for an instant?......Henry David Thoreau
Christopher
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Purgatorial Incarceration


16 posted 04-26-2000 09:46 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

And he poses possibilities which they declaim as definitives.


Mike - I find your lack of respect demeaning. Who are you to judge me as arrogant when all I was doing was postulating on a feeling? I used words such as "perhaps," which means possibly. I used "appears,"which means that it "seems" like such. I in no way stated as a fact that this was what was really happening. I made a distinct effort not to condemn anyone specifically. I only presented my my thoughts, on the matter. If that is arrogance, then so be it. Truth be told, someone who seems to read into someone else's words WITHOUT GATHERING THE FULL MEANING OF THE POST, is doing EXACTLY what I said seems to be going on around the other forums. Hmm, what a concept. Thank you for proving me right Mike, I appreciate it.

To the rest of you,


Peace out!
Sven
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17 posted 04-26-2000 10:26 PM       View Profile for Sven   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Sven

Okay. . . can I just make a small point here?

Have we forgotten that the words of a poet SPEAK IN DIFFERENT WAYS TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE. . . sure, the poet will write the poem with one intention in mind. . . but to the reader, another intention may come through. . .

I know that I too write from life, but I have a good deal of my own poems that I write merely as story. . . and I have one thing in mind when I write them, but there are times, when reading the replies, that I find that someone else has found something else in my poems that I may have never thought of or even considered when I wrote it.  This makes me a better poet. . . I don't tell the reader that he or she is wrong for seeing the things that they see in my poems. . . if anything, I take them to heart. . . and apply them to my writing in the future. . .

I know that I don't always see the things that the poet has written, I see the words, and I take what I know about the poet into consideration. . .in the case of Claire's poem (sorry to keep referring back to you Claire, but Chris brought it up!) I referred to the quality of her words and the "beauty" of the poem. . . what I meant was that the poem had a sad beauty to it. . . it was indeed touching and I did indeed see the sadness behind it. . . and I did touch on it in my reply. . . The response I gave was merely my own personal feelings about the poem. . .

I think that most of the poets here try to reply with a sense of helpfulness and responsibility, they know that their words will either make or break the writer. . .so I try to read each poem that I respond to carefully. . . and I try to make my responses encouraging and let the poet know how and why I liked it. . .

So, back to my original point  . . . EACH POEM SPEAKS IN DIFFERENT WAYS TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE. . .just because someone's view of a poem doesn't agree with yours. . . doesn't mean that it's right or wrong, it just means that it's different. . .

Okay. . .that's all. . . thanks!!

---------------------------------------------------------------------

 That which gives light must endure burning
--Victor Frankl

Skyfyre
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18 posted 04-26-2000 10:55 PM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

Hmmm ... good question ...

As far as assuming anything about the truth of someone's poetry, I think the major part of it is this:  if a poem contains any sort of deep or intense emotion, it is a normal human tendency to sympathize and/or empathize with it -- not many people read poetry to analyze the meter, rhyme scheme, diction, etc. (the CA bottle-thrower bunch excepted, of course -- LOL).  It follows, then, that in the case of a poem which is not specified to be fictional, a person who "feels" the emotions put forth by the author might be tempted to assume that those emotions are genuine rather than -- well, fabricated.  Life and past experience aside, there is still a great deal of fabrication involved in writing, for example, love poetry in the present tense when you are not presently in love.

Now, before everybody and their mother come seeking blood from me, let me be the first to say that I have many times been guilty of the same crime -- cranking out love poems by the dozen that were, if not necessarily uninspired, not really based in truth of the moment.  This is not to say that I would not have been thrilled to actually BE in the situation described in the poem -- in fact, I think a great deal of such poetry is in fact the wishful thinking of the poet in written form.  I got my share of warm-and-fuzzy congratulations on these as well, to be sure -- but rather than being annoyed by them, I took it as a compliment that I was able to (and this is going to sound REALLY bad) convince others that I was hopelessly in love when the truth was I thought up a flowery line and said "That would make a GREAT love poem!!"  

As far as responses, I can only speak for myself and what I do:  I read every poem that I respond to at least twice -- which is why I don't respond much -- I simply don't have the time to give every poem the attention it deserves.  Do I think that every poem needs to be read in depth in order to reply?  No.  Do I think that the author appreciates it more if the reader DOES spend time on it, as evidenced by a more fleshed-out reply?  Absolutely.  I LOVE it when people tell me not only that they love my poetry (Or hate it, as the case may be), but WHY they feel that way.  It helps me grow as a writer, both by giving me confidence and by letting me know what is effective and what isn't in my poetry.

That's my piece ...  

--Me


 Full fathom five thy father lies,
Of his bones are coral made,
Those are pearls that were his eyes;
Nothing of him that doth fade
But doth suffer a sea-change
Into something rich and strange...


--William Shakespeare, from The Tempest

Denise
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19 posted 04-27-2000 09:26 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Chris,

Prefacing your statements with “it seems” or “probably” or “to me, it appears” does not take the sting out of  “(You) are giving false praise which means nothing. It’s almost demeaning in my eyes to do such.” after you have invited readers to view a particular post and asking people to take note of the replies to that particular post, even going so far as to mention a couple of replies that were acceptable to you. Perhaps your “possibilities” would not have seemed so “definitive” if you had presented this topic in a more generalized fashion without pointing to a particular thread.

I am still at a loss as to the purpose of your post. Whose business is it, anyway, what a reader of a poem offers in the way of a response, other than the poet and the reader involved?  Perhaps time could be better spent reading the poems and not judging the replies to the poems.

I am very saddened that one of our better poets will not be here any longer. I pray he reconsiders and returns one day. I enjoyed his poems immensely and his replies to my poems even if it were just a smiley face and a few heartfelt words.  It was far more feedback than I have ever gotten from many of you here and it was always appreciated.

In defense of Mike, your comments could be construed as a touch arrogant, Chris, although that was not your intent. When implying, albeit “possibly”, that the responders were not really reading the poem or getting the meaning, as if they weren’t capable of or willing to see past a pretty font or flowery words, your words and the manner in which they were presented, have hurt some fine people here at Passions. Believe me, Chris, most of us do 'get' it. I still ask, what purpose was served by this?

Denise

p.s. upon re-reading your original post, Chris, I see that you didn't mention posts that were acceptable to you. My apologies for my faulty memory.


[This message has been edited by dsnyder (edited 04-27-2000).]
Meadowmuse
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20 posted 04-27-2000 09:54 AM       View Profile for Meadowmuse   Email Meadowmuse   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Meadowmuse's Home Page   View IP for Meadowmuse

That this issue has grown to such immensity surprises me.  If I've offended anyone with a careless remark in my reply to the original post here, please allow me to apologize.  Truth be told, I am uncomfortable even having my writing still being referred to in this thread.  I'm going to stick to posting poems on my website, I think. Or maybe just scrawling them in a notebook like I did in college would be better. Regardless, I'm just feeling quite self conscious now about "being" here.
jbouder
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21 posted 04-27-2000 10:29 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

To quote a great man: "Be afraid, be very afraid" when the CA moderators agree on something.  

Denise:

Jumping in here for a second.  

"Whose business is it, anyway, what a reader of a poem offers in the way of a response, other than the poet and the reader involved?"

I think it is the business of anyone who cares about the poetry.  Poetry is meant to be read (we both agree on that) but, more important than that, it is meant to be pondered and applied.  Some people argue that they write their poetry from their heart and that their replies are their "heart" reactions to that poem (often only read once and quickly, I am certain). In my opinion, nomatter how well meaning the person offering the reply is, the poem has not been done justice and the poet is left with little more than a warm fuzzy feeling and a free ticket back to the top of the page.  

I think Meadowmuse's poem had a depth that warranted more discussion and, if I was her, I would have been a little disappointed that it seemed many did not really appreciate effort that went into writing a poem like hers.  

I think we have a duty to the poets in here to be polite and encouraging (and I don't think we are dilatory in practicing what we ought to practice in this case) but I think we also have a duty to encourage excellence in poetry writing.  I don't see this as a CA thing but, rather, as a Passion in Poetry thing.  Helping someone improve their poetry helps them to better express themselves (kinda like the "teach a man to fish" saying).  The result is that they become better, more confident and happy poets.

Denise, you've said in CA a few times that you cannot offer a critique of someone's poem.  I think what you were really saying is that you don't really know how.  I think if you would try it and develop that skill you would find a new appreciation for the poetry you read.  You've written a sonnet ... have you ever taught someone how to write a sonnet?  Maybe it is just a bottle-thrower trait, but I found being able to do this infinitely more satisfying than knowing that I merely gave the poet a short compliment.

I am arrogant, by the way, and have come to terms with it.       

Mike:

What is so demeaning about Chris's post?  Did you really read Meadowmuse's poem?  If so, then why the defensiveness?  Relax.

Claire:

Why are you afraid of posting in CA?  Brad and I are just a couple of puppy dogs ... the ladies who frequent CA, by the way, keep us in line.  I would like to see some of your work in there.

Sven:

You should check out the debate on the subject taking place in the English Forum under "Whose interpretation is the 'right' interpretation".  As far as I know, the jury is still out on the subject.    Your reply, by the way, was more specific than most (not specific enough for the typical bottle-thrower but more indepth than many I see in OP).

Craig:

Make peace with your gods, little British man ... grrrrr!  Perfume!      

Jim
Denise
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22 posted 04-27-2000 12:36 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Well, as a matter of fact, Jim, I have written numerous sonnets, seems to be all that I can write anymore, when I do get a spark of inspiration, that is, and yes, I have taught others how to write them also, although my 'teaching' has been done via e-mail. So I suppose that I am capable of offering critique if that is considered critique, I just haven't done so in the forums.

I still believe that the response to a poem is not for someone else's comment...it should be between the poet and the person responding. Whether the poet is open to critique has to be considered as well. Some are and some are not and it is the poet's right to make that determination for themselves. Most people, I have found, though, are very receptive to a private e-mail if a reader has a comment or question that may prove embarrassing to bring up in a public format. Also, a poet can get all the in-depth that they want by simply posting in C.A., so I still am left asking what was the point of this post in the first place? I am not trying to be difficult or to cause dissention, I just really don't understand this at all. I am sorry if I have caused any hurt feelings, that was not my intent. Thanks for bringing some levity to this, Jim, it is appreciated!  

Denise
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23 posted 04-27-2000 01:06 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Denise:

I just noticed you are nearing 10,000 posts ... geeze, girl, what do you do ... sit at your computer all day?    Levity is important in sibling rivalry (this IS how I perceive this thread).

The importance of Chris posting a thread like this one, as I see it, is to bring into the open areas where some of the members might think Passions could stand some improvement.  You've read some of my poetry ... I often write it in a way that requires multiple readings (and thumbing through the dictionary) to work through.  I, personally, don't think Critical Analysis is the only place where this should be done.  Some poetry is meant to be contemplated (Alexander Pope's "Essay on Man" comes to mind) and I think it is important to encourage people in every forum to offer more than applause.  Not only does this give more to the originating poet, it also improves the reader's ability to read, write and understand poetry.  Those are worthwhile goals for Open Poetry, right?  What do you think?

Jim

P.S.  Craig ... I haven't forgotten you ... be afraid ... be very afraid.  
Marge Tindal
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24 posted 04-27-2000 10:14 PM       View Profile for Marge Tindal   Email Marge Tindal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marge Tindal's Home Page   View IP for Marge Tindal

Letting off a 'wee bit of heart' ...  
Christopher~
While I respect your opinion, even when it might differ from mine ...
I can't help but wonder what possible difference it could make to you what I (or anyone else) 'reads' into their 'interpretation' of someone else's poem.  Just pondering.

If it's 'beautiful' to me ... it's 'beautiful' TO ME !
You can take my word that if I took
the time to reply ... my opinion is a personal thing between me and the author.
I've been 'loved', 'liked', 'tolerated',
'wow'-ed, 'awww'-ed and praised.  I LIKE IT !
I LOVE IT ! And as much as I enjoy receiving it .. I enjoy giving it out.

It's tearing a poem apart in the OPEN Forum's that 'grates' on me.  I don't like it and don't solicit it or condone it when it's done to others.
I write from my heart.  If it reaches yours, I'm glad to hear that it did.  If it doesn't then you can quietly close the 'book' and I'll truly never know if you read it or not.
------------------------------------------
'To me, it appears as if those people replying didn't really reach for the meaning of the poem. They perhaps noted a pretty format and large letters and assumed that it was a happy poem. Such is not the case I think. To me, that's worse than not replying at all. (You) are giving out false praise which means nothing. It's almost demeaning in my eyes to do such.'
-----------------------------------------
Because MY interpretation of a written piece differs from yours, Christopher ... it doesn't make me wrong and it certainly doesn't make you right.  Just two reflective people who see things differently.
Have a great evening and a better tomorrow.
Love ya'
~*Marge*~


 ~*The pen of the poet never runs out of ink, as long as we breathe.*~
noles1@totcon.com

 
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