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Passions in Poetry

poets!!

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roxane
Senior Member
since 09-02-99
Posts 519
us


0 posted 12-03-1999 10:38 PM       View Profile for roxane   Email roxane   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for roxane

i have just noticed something terrible while reading some poems on here. there are certain poets, and for modesty's sake i name no names, that think themselves god's gift to poetry. one example: multiple postings. is there really anyone out there so vain and pompous that they think that people come to passions to read 19 of their newest poems???? the worst thing is that it's not happening with new members, but poets who have been here a while. a sencond example: replying to their own posts, only to boost their topics to the top. what about new poets, on here, trying to get attention for possibly the first time, while someone with a mediocre poem feels the need to have 17 replies to his or her poem. it's frustrating. does anyone else feel the same way about this? i feel like a lot of good poetry is being lost because of these people. a third point: this poet commented on how it took him a short time to write his poem almost as if to brag about its quality. had it been in critical analysis, i would have told him it was trite, and definitely less than he was capable of. to me, this behaviour seems cocky. i hope that i'm not alone on this. a few times, i tried to critique poems outside of critical analysis, always putting the good before the bad, but i have been shown that any criticism is not welcome outside the critical analysis forum. i thought that we were all here to share and to grow, yet some seem intent that they are the best poets here. i don't believe that this is the case.
does anyone agree with me on this? is there any possible way that i can offer an otherwise talented poet advice on a poem that is not demonstrative of said talent, without hurting their feelings?

------------------
"Come night, come darkness, for you cannot come too soon or stay too long in such a place as this." Charles Dickens


roxane


Dusk Treader
Moderator
Senior Member
since 06-18-99
Posts 1231
St. Paul, MN


1 posted 12-03-1999 11:30 PM       View Profile for Dusk Treader   Email Dusk Treader   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Dusk Treader

I'm going to have to agree with you on this one Roxanne, there are some poets out there that seem to abuse that reply button, or have a greatly distorted self image.

Everyone loves their works, but they should be able to let them sink into obscurity, I know I sometimes hate to do that, but you get to see more awesome pieces and they will get their own justly deserved praise.

And no one seems open to critism, which is too bad, I've learned quite a bit through constructive critism, I enjoy getting comments, as long as they aren't insulting.

One other thing that has kind of disturbed me was the loss of Systematic Decay, and Watcher666... I didn't really know these two, but they offered quite a bit to the different forums, you could see Watcher's replies everywhere, and Sys Decay starting very interesting debates.. It's too bad they felt the need to leave.


Just my thoughts



------------------
"Human pride sings a vengeful song, inspired by the times you've been walked on" - Creed - "What If"


Elizabeth
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 06-07-99
Posts 7296
America the beautiful


2 posted 12-03-1999 11:55 PM       View Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Elizabeth's Home Page   View IP for Elizabeth

I agree with many of the points you have made, Roxane. Some certainly do feel that they are God's gift to poetry when it is actually vice versa: poetry is God's gift to them!!! One poem I read I found to be absolutely disgusting: the poet seemed to be manipulative and looking to keep the spotlight on herself. Of course, everyone else just loved it so I chose not to say anything for the sake of keeping the peace.

About the reply issue: it certainly would seem totally uninteractive to not reply and say thank you to those who have said something nice. If I have posted a poem and someone replies to it while I am still online, I will reply to them and thank them. I still read and reply to others' poems too, especially ones that I see have 0-1-2 replies while others have 20 or more. I may read a poem with zillions of replies, but sometimes choose not to respond to it because so many people have already. Sometimes, your name is what gets you the replies in those cases.

------------------
Nail to the mast her holy flag,
Set every threadbare sail-
And give her to the god of storms,
The lightning and the gale!
-Oliver Wendell Holmes
Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 05-26-99
Posts 25869
Hurricane Alley


3 posted 12-04-1999 12:16 AM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

Believe it or not, this discussion has happened several times before and unfortunately there are no easy solutions. Sometimes a new poet doesn't knowing it is discourteous to post 6 poems when they first register. Soon, we'll have some guidelines that the members can read when they post and different ones when they reply.

Often, I will read a poem and not reply, only because there are so many responses and everyone said what I would say. And there are times when a poem has few or no responses and I'll read and respond to that, even if I don't care for the poem!

The Open Forum is considered an area of support for poets. The Critical Analysis Forum was created for those poets desiring to be critiqued. (You will never see one of mine there as I tremble at the thought of someone critiquing my work! It scares me!)

I don't know if there are any viable solutions to these problems. But each time they are brought up for discussion, someone learns from them. And that's another part of being in the Passions family - we are teachers and students at all times!

Thanks for asking!
roxane
Senior Member
since 09-02-99
Posts 519
us


4 posted 12-04-1999 01:49 PM       View Profile for roxane   Email roxane   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for roxane

one thing that really bothers me is that one poet had the absolute nerve, when asked why he would keep boosting his own poems up to the top, replied "because my poems are special to me, and so many new people join each day, that i don't wnat them to miss the opportunity to read them." i was disgusted! who would ever say that? i try to reply to about 10 poems for every 1 that i write, that way, i can make sure that none of my poems dominate the forum. i'm so glad that people agree with me on this, i wouldn't want to be all alone.
Saxoness
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Senior Member
since 07-18-99
Posts 1176
Texas


5 posted 12-04-1999 09:25 PM       View Profile for Saxoness   Email Saxoness   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Saxoness

I have a few things to say about this.

First, sometimes when you see multiple postings, it's because someone like me will read a really good poem, and then proceed to find a bunch of other poems by that author and respond to them. It's not neccessarily that poets fault.

Second, I have been known to reply to my own works, as in adult for instance, because I want more than one or two replies. Maybe you think it's a bad thing, but until people start to read my work and actually respond to it, I'm going to try and keep it floating for a while.

As far as pompous poets, i haven't really noticed it. I try to stick to reading poetry and not judging someone by their pride in their own work. If you don't like a particular poets attitude, don't read their pieces. As far as CA, I have to agree with you on that one. I think critiques should be welcome anywhere. Take adult, for instance......you can't really post stuff from there into CA.....so where is the critique going to come from? It's still poetry, even if it's dark or erotic.

Just my opinion, i'm sure, but thats what the alley is for, right?

------------------
"Glory remains unaware of my neglected dwelling where alone
I sing my tearful song which has charms only for me."

-Charles Brugnot


Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


6 posted 12-04-1999 09:45 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Roxane - in many cases I agree.

Someone said, it may have been Sys Decay actually, that there were many cliques here - and they often result in continuous boosting to the top, to the expense of new poets. With so many people here I think it is hard to avoid cliques, friendships are formed which endure well beyond netpoets and everyone wants to encourage their friends.

I still remember what it was like to be new, and how discouraging it was to sink away to nothing with hardly a reply. I try to respond to all new people I come across, but I don't get all that much time here - so I miss many poems. Sometimes I put mine back to the top, mainly because I want to say thankyou to the people who have responded - but I try to do that first and then reply to others so mine will sink away again.

Some people are really sensitive about their work, and often many poems here seem to be written as an avenue for deep emotional expression and I guess to critique theirs would be like critiquing their actual feelings. I also think many people are here because of the comments they get - these positive comments help people feel validated and supported and loved - hard to let go of that. I too, have tried gentle critiquing - sometimes with success, other times it has just been blatantly ignored - I guess it is a hit and miss area.

I think my main point is that Passions is for many, myself included, a place that has gone well beyond the mere posting of poetry - it really is another family. And this desire to be part of it can honestly lead people to do the things you describe above - often unfortunately to the expense of new poets.

Thanks for bringing up this topic - it has highlighted the need to put new poets first and always make them feel welcome.

Elizabeth - the poem you found disgusting - I suppose everyone has their own opinion and certain poets will not click with an individual - I think your idea of keeping the peace if you don't like something is a good one. K


Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


7 posted 12-04-1999 11:32 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

As PdV said, this isn't the first time this issue has been raised - and I'm sure it won't be the last. To be honest, I almost hesitate to respond again, simply 'cause I don't really have any answers. I don't think there are any answers.

But I do want to say a few quick words about several things mentioned, and then a bit more than a few words about one thing in particular. First, I think it's perfectly legitimate to reply to your own poems. In fact, I would encourage it! We don't get to know each other through monologues, but rather through dialogs. Give and take. If that happens to bump your work up to the top again, I don't really think it's a big deal. It won't stay there long. Those who abuse the reply button, who aren't engaging in dialog but in manipulation, will be found out soon enough. I'm a firm believer that people always get what they deserve eventually.

As far as vanity goes, I doubt there is more than one poet on this whole site who isn't guilty (Craig, you wanna raise your hand now? ) Writers, almost by definition, are arrogant. We think we have something worth saying and the guts (conceit?) to actually stand up and say it. Most of us, fortunately, have learned a few social skills along the way and manage to hide our hubris. Those you complain about, roxanne, will generally fall into two categories: those still learning the social skills or (and I think this is by far the larger of the two) those still learning to be critical of their own work. The only answer to either is to teach by example.

Multiple, back-to-back posting are a problem, have always been a problem, and will likely remain a continuous problem. Again as PdV said, the new software will help alleviate that to some degree. But only for those who actually read the Guidelines we post and send them. I could limit everyone to one poem a day. But, to be honest, I'm a pretty slow writer (I'd like to think meticulous, but I'll settle for slow), and actually feel it would be better if everyone was limited to one a month. I mean, just think how good a poem would be if you spent a whole month working on it! But, of course, it wouldn't hardly be fair to impose my personal limitation on everyone else. And I'm sure I would miss some really fine poetry if I tried.

Finally, and this is the issue I really wanted to address, there's the matter of critiques.

I think we make a serious mistake when we assume that everyone at Passions is here for the same reasons. Shoot, just putting that concept into words sounds really inane! But I submit that is exactly what you are doing when you try to "help" someone become a better poet before they ask for the help. There are as many reasons for writing as there are writers, and darn near as many reasons for posting. And as far as I'm concerned, every single one of those reasons is a valid one. One of the most marvelous things about Passions, I think, is that we have enough people - enough diversity - that every one of those reasons for posting can and will find support from another Member.

Everyone who knows me, everyone who has read even a small fraction of what I've written in these pages, knows that I'm about as pro-learning as is possible. But I'm even more pro-sharing - and feel rather strongly that the two go hand-in-hand. Learning isn't a goal. It's not a destination. Learning is a journey (or, as Brad would say, a process), and every one of us is at different stages in that journey. Yes, I strongly encourage all Members to learn - not just about poetry, but about writing in general and about people in particular. But we shouldn't use learning as a way to discourage sharing. Because I can guarantee you, if someone shares they will learn. It's an inevitable part of that journey.

Critiques are a very, very small part of that learning process. Many of our poets, I would venture, aren't ready for critiques yet. They will learn more readily by reading the work of others, by responding, by comparing their own thoughts and words with those of others (if only subconsciously). They have to learn to be more critical of their own work before they'll be ready for others to be critical of it. Many others, of course, will welcome critiques, and most of those are posting in the CA forum for that reason. Saxoness, you raise a really good point about the Adult Forum and critiques, and I think we can safely steal the solution from the Usenet community - simply attach a C&C Welcome (Comments & Criticisms) tag to any poem when you want to invite a serious critique outside CA. I think there is also a third group, those who have gone beyond amateur critiques and gain little from such discussions. And the true miracle is that most of those will, if they're lucky and continue to grow, turn full circle and become members again of that first group.

Some journeys, after all, never end.


[This message has been edited by Ron (edited 12-04-1999).]
roxane
Senior Member
since 09-02-99
Posts 519
us


8 posted 12-05-1999 06:49 PM       View Profile for roxane   Email roxane   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for roxane

thank you all for sharing your thoughts on this.  i just wanted to clear a few things up.
there is a huge difference between replying to your own poem with a thought, an insight, an explanation, or an expression of gratitude, and replying to your poem with a   so as to boost your poem with 35 (read: THIRTY-FIVE!!!!!!??!) replies.  to me, that seems unfair to new poets who lose attention to their poems this way.  
by multiple postings, i mean people who post 6 or 7 poems in 15 minutes, not anymore who replies to the same poets posts a few times in one sitting.  
i agree with sys decay about the cliques here, but unlike her, i haven't let it get to me.  if she hadn't, she'd probably still be here.  it is hard to accept the fact that even on the internet, there will be cliques, but it's true.  an example: recently, i posted for the first time in a long time on  open poetry.  the only person that responded to it was ruth, and that's only because she knew me from my postings on critical analysis.  people are quick to say that they don't post their poems to be critiqued.  i think that is usually false.  most people don't want to hear that anything they write could be in anyway flawed.  i understand that, but the thing that bothers me here is the negating of other poets' work by supporting one's own to excess.  i'm not at all blaming new poets for this, but rather a specific, nameless poet who really upset me with what they were saying.
RainbowGirl
Member Elite
since 07-31-99
Posts 3167
United Kingdom


9 posted 12-05-1999 09:08 PM       View Profile for RainbowGirl   Email RainbowGirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit RainbowGirl's Home Page   View IP for RainbowGirl

Roxane: Hi, don't think we've met..  

I did read this the other evening but, dare I say it, for a moment, I wondered if you were talking about me and I hesitated in responding...why did I think it was me?...because I post a response to those that reply to my posts...I try to either do it when they're on top or if there are a couple of replies, I do so then...I guess I'm a 'people person' and if someone took the time to write me a letter, I would send them a reply back and I think the same way here...hope that makes sense but I did have trouble in the beginning because it sends them to the top and I guess I felt awkward about that..  

I do try to answer as many poems as I can and I try to answer those with no replies but sometimes a poem catches my eye and if it's a funny one I end up replying to that first, cause I love to laugh..  

I guess it's a weird situation here because I'm one of those that writes a poem in a few minutes and it's usually how I feel at *that* moment...it's not my character to work on a poem for long, mainly because when I do try, I end up deleting it..because I've taken the emotion out of it...but that's just me and the only reason I can offer..

HUGS

 Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream...





[This message has been edited by RainbowGirl (edited 12-05-1999).]
roxane
Senior Member
since 09-02-99
Posts 519
us


10 posted 12-05-1999 10:22 PM       View Profile for roxane   Email roxane   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for roxane

rainbowgirl,
i see no problem with replying to one's own poems, as long as it's not for the sole purpose i above explained.  i have been on passions for a couple months now, and i pretty much know how things work around here, but since i have begun posting solely on critical analysis in order to have more critical reviews, most people act like i've never posted at all. i think i have close to 300 posts under my belt, a lot for me.  i love it here, so much that it bothers me when someone wants to do something that makes the experience of passions less enjoyable for another.  contributing, sharing, learning, helping are all noble, but what i am speaking of is not.  i hope that no one thinks i am attacking them, or that i disdain replying to one's own post.  it's just the reason why.
Isis
Member Ascendant
since 09-06-99
Posts 6390
Sunny Queensland


11 posted 12-06-1999 12:08 AM       View Profile for Isis   Email Isis   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Isis's Home Page   View IP for Isis

I agree with most of what you say Roxanne, but the cliches thing I ponder deeply.  I am mainly in Dark now, and I occasionally go back to op4 and post something.  The last time I did I got 13 replies, but they were all from people who knew me previously.  Not one new name responded.
I do my all to welcome and support the new members, gosh, I remember how insecure I was when I first joined here.  Some of the new members fit right in and respond and welcome like old pros, others do not.
I was astounded that not one new member responded to me in op4.  Shocked in a way.
I simply try to respond to 5 - 10 others before I write my own poem.  I don't respond to all my responses, let some lie, until they build up for example.
I just want to know what would you Roxanne, or any one else do in the following situation --  You've worked SO hard on a particular piece, so proud of it, can't wait to have a couple of responses, and no one reads it, for days, no one reads it.  Would you just let it go?  It could be your best work ever?  Or would you ask someone to read it? A friend? Or bring in back to the top with a little note explaining how much it means to you and you hope someone will read it?  
What would you do?   I after a few days would probably ICQ a passions buddy and say please read this.
And Ron I am guilty of a poem a day, but I limit it to that, usually.
This is an endless debate, we shall never have the answers, but it kind of makes you nervous to respond or not respond or post or anything.  We don't want inhibitions here, as long as we all treat each other as we want to be treated, and support all members, new or old.

Just finally, what would everyone do in the scenario I painted above?
These are my thoughts anyway  


 The more you praise and celebrate your life, the more there IS to celebrate.
~Isis~
(Daughter of Mystery)

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


12 posted 12-06-1999 12:36 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

And Ron I am guilty of a poem a day

Isis, I was being totally facetious about limiting posts to once a month, trying to make the point that any limitation is arbitrary. The good writers know when they're ready to post a work, and if they have several a day it's because it's been a very good day. It happens! And, of course, a lot of new people come in here with a whole backlog of excellent poems - and they're understandably eager to share them. And I, for one, am equally eager to read them.

Don't feel the need to limit yourself to One A Day. We ain't no vitamin!  
Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


13 posted 12-06-1999 04:57 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Hey Isis - wondered where you had gone - I don't get into dark much.  

Well - I too have noticed that new poets don't seem to reply much - a tad concerning.
Why I wonder is that?
Perhaps some may feel slightly intimidated by the camaraderie between many of the long timers - and are unsure of how to approach. I think many respond to people who have responded to them first! I did - I was really nervous when I first came to NP. Admittedly it was actually my first experience on the internet too - so I just posted my first little poem and waited with clenched hands for a response. I remember a little smile from Poet de Vine that warmed my heart and a few other comments that filled me with joy. Naturally I responded to their posts first until I overcome my shyness and started to respond to all and sundry! I was certainly intimidated by the people who had posts with replies numbering in the 20's or above. So, that is a possibility - you returned after awhile and none of the new poets knew you so you were sadly ignored by them.
Just one possibility.
Your situation - At first, I let my posts sink because I felt awkward bringing them back up for a number of reasons - shy, unconfident about my work - and I didn't want to appear desperate! Now, I think that Open 4 moves so much is it quite appropriate to bring a poem back up sometimes - although I have stated my main reasons for bringing mine to the top above. I think your situation would incite a different reaction from every poet - relying largely on how secure they were about their work and how confident they felt about bringing it back to the top.  
Everyone deserves to be responded to that is true. In some ways I view netpoets like this: here poetry has become a language unto itself and when you start out it's like entering a group of strangers and insinuating your way into a conversation that started way before you arrived - can be hard to do!

Hugs.  K
roxane
Senior Member
since 09-02-99
Posts 519
us


14 posted 12-06-1999 10:02 AM       View Profile for roxane   Email roxane   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for roxane

i know what it is like to post something as a new member and have no one reply.  my first post ever in passions was in open poetry 2, and guess what?  to this day, no one has ever responded, not that i am holding out for it now.  if someone is really proud of their work, and they want someone to notice it, i don't see anything wrong with giving it a reply or two, but the case which i have been speaking of, this poet had not less than 10 or 13 posts when he began replying to his own posts so that "new members won't miss out on these."  i guess what bothered me the most is that he felt that new members would come on here and seek him out, so he felt the need to drown out everyone else's poetry.  that's definitely a different scenario.
i hope no one thinks that i think we should all be totally modest and hate our own work, that's not the case. i am glad to have your insights into this matter though.
p.s. ron- i am loving these smilies  

[This message has been edited by roxane (edited 12-06-1999).]
RainbowGirl
Member Elite
since 07-31-99
Posts 3167
United Kingdom


15 posted 12-06-1999 10:46 AM       View Profile for RainbowGirl   Email RainbowGirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit RainbowGirl's Home Page   View IP for RainbowGirl

*phew* Once a night is all I can manage...ooops

HUGS

 Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream...

Isis
Member Ascendant
since 09-06-99
Posts 6390
Sunny Queensland


16 posted 12-06-1999 06:24 PM       View Profile for Isis   Email Isis   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Isis's Home Page   View IP for Isis

Firstly Ron honey, I know you didn't mean 1 poem a day literally    I was joking back at you..  I do mainly only post one a day, sometimes more if I am feeling truly venomous or creative  
Roxane, I agree totally they new members would be nervous as hell, I know I was.  No-one replied to my first few postings and Michael was a sweetie and nursed me through it all!
We all have pride in our work 'tis true.  And hopefully with this wonderful topic and all the responses new members will understand how all this works and why etc.
As for people lording it etc. as Ron said they will get what they deserve eventually.
Why don't you pop over to the Dark Forums sometime and try your hand, it won't hurt I promise!!  


 The more you praise and celebrate your life, the more there IS to celebrate.
~Isis~
(Daughter of Mystery)

 
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