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Passions in Poetry

Freedom of speech (or..delete this NOW Ron)

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1984
New Member
since 11-10-1999
Posts 4


0 posted 11-10-1999 03:13 AM       View Profile for 1984   Email 1984   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for 1984

The artist is the creator of beautiful things. To reveal art and conceal the artist is art's aim.

There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written, or badly written.That is all.

The nineteenth century dislike of realism is the rage of Caliban seeing his own face in a glass. The nineteenth century dislike of romanticism is the rage of Caliban not seeing his own face in a glass.

The moral life of man forms part of the subject-matter of the artist, but the morality of art consists in
the perfect use of an imperfect medium. No artist desires to prove anything. Even things that are true
can be proved.

No artist has ethical sympathies. An ethical sympathy in an artist is an unpardonable mannerism of style. No artist is ever morbid. Theartist can express everything. Thought and language are to the artist instruments of an art. Vice and virtue are to the artist materials for an art.

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors.

Diversity of opinion about a work of art shows that the work is new, complex, and vital.

When critics disagree, the artist is in accord with himself.

We can forgive a man for making a useful thing as long as he does not admire it. The only excuse for
making a useless thing is that one admires it intensely.

All art is quite useless.

Oscar Wilde, Preface to The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891


[This message has been edited by 1984 (edited 11-17-1999).]
Michael
Moderator
Member Ascendant
since 08-13-99
Posts 6333
California


1 posted 11-10-1999 06:02 AM       View Profile for Michael   Email Michael   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michael

1984,

I will be as short as I can with this....you have the freedom to go somewhere else, if you do not like it here. Why change, if change is only gonna draw controversy. If it ain't broke, why fix it? We do have a pretty well oiled machine here. More so than that, we have a family type atmosphere among the general population of poets gathered here. We all come to Passions "freely" to post our work because of the environment Ron provides for us here.

I, personally have seen many poetry sites go down in flames because of the postings you so adamantly want to see allowed on this site. Have you even stopped to think why Passions is so much bigger than any other site on the net?

Ron has provided a wonderful web-site for people who share his interest in poetry, and CLASS I may add. To allow disruptive posts in "our" forums over cries of "freedom of speech" would not only be harming to many of the poets here, but ultimately cost Ron current members as well as future members.

I think it is ashame for someone like you to come here, 100% unappreciative of the hard work that has gone into the builing of such a fine site as Passions. I find appalling the ignorance and arogance you come here with to place such a pointless attack against the owner of such a site.

There is a big difference in critiquing a poem and slamming someone. If you want vulgar postings - you are "free" to build your own site. Please feel free to send me the link when you do so I can be as courteous to you as you have been here.


Michael



[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 11-10-1999).]
Watcher666
Senior Member
since 10-13-1999
Posts 1630


2 posted 11-10-1999 06:20 AM       View Profile for Watcher666   Email Watcher666   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Watcher666's Home Page   View IP for Watcher666

Although I agree with much of what you have said I think freedom of speech is subject to much interpetation.This is Ron's site. He has invited us all into his 'home'. If I invited someone into my home,I would not appreciate them insulting my family and friends and using foul or derogatory words to them. Therefore his site his rules.

If you feel you must say something to a poet that is of a harshly worded nature, then email them.No one learns from cruelty.Constructive critism is the only way to learn.And I don't think the rest of us care to hear it either.

If you don't like a poem or prose,then don't post on it.What you consider modest can be precieved as harsh and critical to another.

From what I have seen Ron has always dealt fairly with all.I might not agree with all of his decsions,but I do respect them and him.

------------------
Illusion...what we see and what we do...it's all up to you.
DreamEvil
Member Elite
since 06-22-99
Posts 2442


3 posted 11-10-1999 06:36 AM       View Profile for DreamEvil   Email DreamEvil   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit DreamEvil's Home Page   View IP for DreamEvil

Well now, I had not thought to explain or reply to any post on this subject, but this one merits response for two reasons, 1.) I agree with most of the philosophy in this piece, 2.) I cannot condone through silence any disparagement of Ron.

Straight up, there is no progress without change. Without turmoil any society will stagnate and fall into decay. (See my next essay in prose for more in that vein.) I believe in shock as an effective tool to open eyes, but not in wanton application of it as that renders it valueless. I believe in free speech but as I am no longer an anarchist, I am intelligent enough to realize that structure is necessary to determine in what direction an individual or society will grow. While fun, anarchy would lead to formation of larger and larger groups of like-minded people in what are essentially communities. They would then necessitate a set of rules or designate a ruling body. Such is human nature.

As for my story, it was toned down from the original conception of it.

As for admonishing Ron on his policing his site, I would refer you to my prior statement on the necessity of structure to direct the growth of the community. There are times when the good of one must be sacrificed for the good of the many. If that is Ron's decision, or even whim, then I will abide by it since he has more than earned my loyalty. I did not speak out against losing my Moderators position because I have no desire to cause a schism within Passions. I may cause conflict or turmoil with my work, but I will not split Passions in twain.

That all said, I have respect for your views and I share some of them, but the harshness of your tone detracts from the message you seek to relay.

------------------
Now and forever, my heart hears ~one voice~.
DreamEvilŠ

Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 05-26-99
Posts 25869
Hurricane Alley


4 posted 11-10-1999 07:01 AM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

1984

First - you used Ron's e-mail address in your profile. Afraid to use your own? Afraid to reveal your real self? Then you must be hiding something. So from the beginning, I do not trust you.

Second - freedom of speech is honored here. But there have to be rules in any society (and we are a society here - family society). I certainly don't want to be in a family where there's infighting and 'slamming'. I come here to read and write poetry, to be a part of this wonderful group of people. Part of the reason is that this site, more than any I've seen in my three years on the 'net, has responsible, intelligent, caring people.

Third - you have freedom. Freedom to go. Freedom to stay. Freedom to say what you want to say. But with freedom comes a responsibility. As an American, we have freedom but to maintain that, we have the responsibility of following the laws set forth by the government. At Passions, Ron (and the Moderators and members) are the government. We set the tone, the rules, the limits.

Lastly - To assume that Ron would delete this message shows ignorance of the tenets of this site. Ron is the least judgemental person here. His integrity and sense of fair play are above reproach. If I thought your post would in any way hurt him, I'd delete it before he saw it. But I know he will take your comments seriously and respond or not, accordingly. You misjudge him if you think he's not going to allow you to have your say. You chose the correct forum, the correct format.

I challenge you to step forward with your true identity. Hiding behind an Orwellian user name and Ron's e-mail address is cowardly. (Note: your IP address reveals much about you.)

Sharon

[This message has been edited by Poet deVine (edited 11-10-1999).]
Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 05-20-99
Posts 24426
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


5 posted 11-10-1999 07:10 AM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

I am, as most of you know, Ron's most adamant proponent on this site. I cannot and will not allow any disparagement of his philosophies on "free speech" to be posted without my own remand.

Very few of you were around when Ron opened this site. Those of you who were know that he did so because we desperately needed a place where we could post our work in a positive and supportive environment. The site we all had been frequenting did (and still does) have a very anarchistic ambience. The people who post there are proud of their lack of guidelines, of course. If you'd like to move over there, I'm sure they'd love to have you. Just email me for the URL.

Ron does not deny anyone the right to their opinions, be they supportive of his own or dissenting. He simply asks that your visits to Passions be treated like you were visiting his home. Act accordingly - or go elsewhere. That's not too much to ask. Unfortunately, there are always ingrates who feel the need to put a monkey wrench into a fine-tuned machine. I, for one, am very glad that we can toss them out the door and lock them out.
doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028
Virginia


6 posted 11-10-1999 09:35 AM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

Out of the clear blue sky, in comes "1984" with all kinds of complaints and opinions about Passions of Poetry. Let me ask you, "1984".... how much time to you spend at Passions? Are you a current member using an Orwellian pen name? I echo Ms. deVine in asking why you are too timid to reveal your own identity. If you have such adament opinions, well, I for one would certainly like to know who I'm talking to.

I guess I would take your post more seriously if I knew that you frequented Passions as a regular participant. Without that knowledge, for all I know, you are a stranger to the site who's opinion about how it is operated is moot.

-doreen peri

IsabelleSkye
Member
since 06-27-99
Posts 262


7 posted 11-10-1999 09:40 AM       View Profile for IsabelleSkye   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for IsabelleSkye

And I must say 1984, some moderators step down due to their own ignorance. If this was any way a reflection on Ron for the situation think again. I CHOSE to leave. I still post here tho *wink at Michael, there's one alias down!*. My situation as part of the whole fiasco was entirely my fault and my fault alone.
Now back off, play nice and have fun.
Just a quick Q, are you a true poet? Well let's see some!! Around here for the most part we write and reply, rather than tear each other down. Please do email Nan for that other URL, you'll love it! There's no silly rules or moderators! *wink*
Happy Writing
IsabelleSkye
Alicat
Member Elite
since 05-23-99
Posts 4277
Coastal Texas


8 posted 11-10-1999 10:51 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Here we go again. Seems like every couple of weeks someone thinks they have come up with a new concept upon the theme of "freedom of speech" with regards to Passions in Poetry. Such similar topics, indeed, such similar thoughts and words can be found within the Alley, Philosophy, Prose, Feelings, Open, and Announcements. It is nothing new, nothing innovative, no fresh battle cry for independence from tyranny so say whatever the hell you want to sans responsibility.

It has always been the way of pyromaniacs to smell of gasoline. Let your flame flicker bright and fitful against the battle flag you wave defiantly. And let it be elsewhere.

Alicat
Ali Adamson
Sunshine
Administrator
Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


9 posted 11-10-1999 11:14 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

I must ditto PdV and doreen - the first thing I did was go into "Profile", and saw Ron's e-mail address. Was this because "1984" wanted to make sure Ron saw all of the posts in favor of this home and community? Even DE and Izzy refuse to play with this coward.

Step forward, Sir or Madam, with your true intentions.

------------------
Sunshine
Look, then, into thine heart, and write ~~~ Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 05-26-99
Posts 25869
Hurricane Alley


10 posted 11-10-1999 11:25 AM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

This warms my heart. To see us pull together and rally 'round our home enforces my belief that this is the place I want to be.

Thank you Ron!
suthern
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Seraphic
since 07-29-99
Posts 20770
on the threshold of a dream


11 posted 11-10-1999 12:08 PM       View Profile for suthern   Email suthern   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for suthern

I came here from a place where saying anything and everything one wanted to say without regard for anyone else or their feelings became the norm... and I hope I'm never treated to a bigger display of uncovered fannies in this lifetime. It may sound silly, but it actually hurt to see poets prostituting their talents to carry on a flame war... I lost every bit of respect for them, and still mourn a place that had given me great joy. I can't reclaim that wasteland, but I can add my thanks to Ron for providing this place, this home, this refuge.

Whether or not I agree with every single decision Ron makes, it is his right to make those decisions. He's opened the door and welcomed us into his "home" and asked very little in return. Not a one of us is shackled here... we're free to leave.

If you want controversy and nastiness, there's plenty out there... just don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.
DreamEvil
Member Elite
since 06-22-99
Posts 2442


12 posted 11-10-1999 03:25 PM       View Profile for DreamEvil   Email DreamEvil   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit DreamEvil's Home Page   View IP for DreamEvil

Once again, I feel compelled to reply to this piece.

For those entreating 1984 to move on and go elsewhere, how can you tout the camaraderie of Passions and send someone packing for their opposing views, all in the same breath?

As for the anonymity of 1984, countless accepted poets do the same thing here everyday. The e-mail address was perhaps meant to further show Ron the intolerance of the poets posting here by directing any hate mail to his address. Also, keep in mind that to an outsider recent events seem unfair. Hell, I think they are unfair. That would mean a genuine fear of reprisal for speaking their mind. I can entirely relate to that as it happens to me constantly.

Let me describe a scenario for you;

A very controversial poet is disliked as a person for his verse. When that poet states a concern or even a request for help, enemies swarm him with a deluge of castigating replies to the point he is fearful of saying anything or ever asking for help again.

This same poet attempts to write out his bitterness and posts two poems to Adult. The poems are seen as a general blanket statement against women and the poet then feels attacked once again. That causes the poet to withdraw from posting to Adult.

Got ahead of myself in this tale I did.

At the beginning of hostilities, this poet is dumbfounded by free verse and states so, asking for an explanation of it's poetic worthiness. That results in a flurry of attacks that hardens him to the welfare of Passions. He then sends an e-mail requesting that Ron open a forum for essays, figuring the fire cannot get much worse. He is astounded to be asked to Moderate a prose forum. That alone earns his loyalty to Ron.

As Moderator for Prose, he does well enough until he decides to write a truly horrifying tale in the spirit of Halloween. Allowing a few friends to read and critique, as well as determine its worth as a post, he posts it and waits to see the response. Nearly 24 hours later, a friend tells him there is a very negative reply to his story. After reading it, he e-mails Ron to delete the entire thread. The problem is that a fellow Moderator directed that person to the story with the knowledge that it would upset her. When she posts, Ron is immediately notified that the story is unacceptable and calls for the poet's ousting begin going to Ron. This seems a well-orchestrated attack designed to result in the banning of a common enemy.

Keep in mind that the poet does not say or post anything in his own defense due to a desire to keep Passions whole, something his enemies never considered.

Quite an interesting tale this is, don't you think?

As a footnote to this tale, Ron publicly acknowledges a seeming vendetta against this poet has been in his awareness for some time. This is said in a reply to an Alley post.

Stories aside, if such happened while an observer was watching, they would react just as 1984 has. Assuming they cared about justice at all.

Finally, that tale ends with the poet's loyalty to Passions and Ron both unshaken and unassailable. Therefore will I defend anyone's right to speak their mind, whether I agree with them or not. I will not tell them to leave simply because I dislike their writing or message, nor will I hold against them words spoken in anger or passion.

1984, I understand some of your reasons in posting as you did. I must also say that the vehemence with which these others have met your protest is exactly what you hoped to inspire, as an example of intolerance. It is intolerance, but is also a defense of our home and should be taken with a grain of salt. Even as you and myself, we are all only human. Ron made the best decision for the community, from necessity.

For my fellow Passions poets, while I may sit back and let attacks on me go unheeded, I will defend my friends (some of you are) and enemies if attacks are unjustified. Moreso will I fight for the right of an individual to speak their mind without fear of reprisal. Passions is my home as well and I will defend its walls and it's principles.

If any are offended by my display of opinion and loyalty, so be it. Ron and Passions deserve no less than the respect due them..

------------------
Now and forever, my heart hears ~one voice~.
DreamEvilŠ



[This message has been edited by DreamEvil (edited 11-10-1999).]
doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028
Virginia


13 posted 11-10-1999 09:46 PM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

Interesting and sad story, DE. Sometimes it's an eye opener to see the perspective of incidents from the viewpoint of another. Especially those who feel they have been personally assaulted and not give a fair shot.

I am not here to judge. All I will say to your treatise is that you most certainly have a strong perspective and viewpoint that you have been personally wronged and that there was some kind of "plot" among several people here to harm you and demand you be relieved of your duties as Moderator. Frankly, I find this whole concept very difficult, if not impossible, to believe (mostly because I believe in PEOPLE... not just the people at Passions!) and I think you are, at this point, quite overly sensitive. If, in fact, there was some kind of mass vendetta against you, I don't know how I would have missed those implications, being a regular frequenter of Passions.

Your "story" is one that evokes empathy in me, though, if not sympathy. In my life, I have had experiences which I thought were unfair at best. Sometimes, I have felt personally slighted and that there were people talking about me behind my back. (Well, not as much as those Justins and Loony 'Toons in the 'stute... hehehe) It happens to all of us, I guess, but some let these types of feelings bother them more than others.

For what it's worth, what I think is this: You earned enough respect from Ron to be honored with the title and responsibilities of Moderator. That is commendable in itself... and from what I hear, you did a wonderful job (I have only gone to the Prose forum a few times, so I have no personal experience with this). Somewhere along the line, your posts offended people, however, for whatever reason. Some of them offended me. Perhaps the world (or the Passions community) is not ready to accept every type of verbiage spoken or written. Often, people get offended because the values that they hold dear are being ridiculed or treated as insignificant. You are not the only one who has feelings.

If, in fact, your feeling that you have been railroaded out of Passions as a Moderator is correct, then I most definitely feel you are justified in the anger and hurt you express. I would just encourage you to think about how unlikely this is among thinking, intelligent persons, such as the poets who post regularly at Passions. I, for one, would not allow ANYBODY to talk me into having some kind of personal vendetta against ANY human being! To me, that concept is absurd. And, I would venture to guess that most of the other poets who post here who have earned your respect would say the same thing. So.... think for a minute.... WHO would do this to you? Do you REALLY think you have been railroaded?

Instead, I think that your idea of "freedom of speech" simply offended some people. It's as simple as that.

So, I will close by saying I sure hope all of this is over soon because I had a lousy day at work and I am not accustomed to conflict and I need to get a good night's sleep tonight because I have a big meeting with a client tomorrow (whoops! sorry! perspective change for a second). For everyone here at Passions, I will take the microphone and say that it is truly unfortunate that there has been an upheaval of emotion here and that you and others have taken personal offense.

To Ron, thank you for a fabulous website. To all... including you, DE.... let's get over this. Leave it behind you. Learn from it. Stop losing sleep over it. EVERYBODY makes mistakes. Forgive each other. Forgive yourselves. LET IT GO.... then you can grow!

The End. Case closed. Good night and God Bless you all.

-doreen peri
Michael
Moderator
Member Ascendant
since 08-13-99
Posts 6333
California


14 posted 11-10-1999 11:20 PM       View Profile for Michael   Email Michael   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michael

Well I'm not sure why we all decided to drudge up the past here. The issue seemed pretty plain to me, RULES. Every society has rules, most websites have rules(Even DreamEvil's website is not exempt from RULES). Anarchy has never proven to be a means of stability or support to any society nor any website I can bring to mind, and in most case has led to their direct downfall.

1984, If you are who I think you are, I personally deleted most of the posts in question and would do so again, to protect not only the interest of Passions but the feelings of the members. This is not a country, this is a website. "Freedom of Speech" for any person to post vulgarities and insults at will is not mandated by the governing body of any country, inside or OUTSIDE the USA, to website owners so far as I am aware. I, as a moderator, am not your congressman, you did not vote me into this office, and I owe you nothing, personally.

I work for Ron Carnell and Passion in Poetry and it is an honor to do so. This website has RULES. When rules are broken, (and broken consistently I may add), sometimes the actions taken have to be more than just verbal reminders. There was no "single incident" to which you refer to. The fact that you say such only proves you have not been here long enough to know or appreciate the depth of the issue you are arguing, albeit pointlessly.


Michael


[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 11-10-1999).]
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


15 posted 11-10-1999 11:39 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Michael,
We work for Ron?
Hey, does that mean we get a benefits program? How about health insurance? Maybe we should unionize? Does he pay payroll tax even when there's no payroll?

You've just given me a lot of ideas, Michael.
Workers unite!!!!!
Brad
DreamEvil
Member Elite
since 06-22-99
Posts 2442


16 posted 11-11-1999 12:24 AM       View Profile for DreamEvil   Email DreamEvil   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit DreamEvil's Home Page   View IP for DreamEvil

Once again, I think I am misunderstood. The focus of my story above is solely to illustrate how such actions would seem to a new member. What prompted my response was repeated statements directing 1984 to go elsewhere. I thought that perhaps tolerance of another's views was being neglected with those statement.

My hopefully last word on this is to reiterate that I have no qualm with enforcement of rules and Ron has my support.

------------------
Now and forever, my heart hears ~one voice~.
DreamEvilŠ

Skyfyre
Senior Member
since 08-15-99
Posts 1966
Sitting in Michael's Lap


17 posted 11-11-1999 08:53 AM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

(taking a deep breath)

Sigh -- this truly goes to show that your actions follow you -- especially the ones you took in haste.

It has been brought to my attention that there have been whispers that this "1984" character is actually me, incognito. I am here to set the record straight -- IP addresses or whatever else aside, this topic was not posted by me -- nor do I agree with the manner or tone in which it was presented.

As many of you know, I was involved in the "incident" that is mentioned herein, which is probably another reason why some persons might think I am the culprit here. However, I have apologized for my haste in that matter, to both the general public and Ron personally. And I have no intention nor desire to bring that subject back up. I have a great deal of respect for Ron and all he does here -- and if I did, in fact, have a grievance such as this, rest assured I would take it up with him personally rather than posting it here. In my opinion, a direct attack on Ron such as this, especially posted in a public forum, is in extremely bad taste.

Furthermore, I should like to ask "1984" a question: if the final authority for what is posted on Ron's site should lie not with Ron, then who, praytell, would you suggest?
Or do you merely think he should allow everyone to post whatever they please? The Internet is an expansive community, my friend; needless to say there are many of those out there who would love nothing more than to come into this site and post filth and insults just for the sake of being contrary, which, if not edited, would spark many debates and all-out fights. This would accomplish absolutely nothing except to ruin the air of camaraderie and respect Ron and other members of Passions have worked so hard to build. This is a poetry site, created for the sharing of ideas in a creative, friendly, and beautiful manner. I see absolutely no reason to allow others who might disagree to pollute that, including you. I implore you -- if you have any good sense at all, learn the lesson that I did and back off -- you will doubtless be made welcome. Otherwise, I must join the others in urging you to take your unprovoked attacks elsewhere, where they might be more appropriate.

--Kess

[This message has been edited by Skyfyre (edited 11-11-1999).]
Toerag
Member Ascendant
since 07-29-99
Posts 5839
Ala bam a


18 posted 11-11-1999 09:30 AM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

Decorum? That's "Toerag" in a nutshell! Freedom of Speech? Yep, it's here for sure. Ron owns the company store alright....and sure has alot of repeat business too. Ya think the old man knows what he's doing? Seems as though he does. I guess most everyone knows me here, and they also know I can be crude, sometimes a tad obscene, and even use some very "almost over the line" sexual inuendos occasionally, (okay, a whole bunch).....but yanno? Rudeness to others shouldn't be tolerated anywhere! (unless it's directed towards Balladeer or LongJohn Silver). I still don't know what happened with the Moderator incident, but seems to me the "Moderator" in question has no ill feelings?..That kinda tells me something about this site and Mr. Carnell, and the Moderator! This is a "free" site. This is a fun place to visit. I think Ron owns this site? Furthermore, I think he and his moderators do a damn fine job in making sure that nobody gets hurt or offended at "HIS" site.....When ya think about it, He's kind of made it "OUR" site hasn't he?

(Ron, I think you should be ashamed of yourself! I'll bet you didn't even send him his "membership fee" back did ya?)



[This message has been edited by Toerag (edited 11-11-1999).]
Kelly
Member
since 07-03-99
Posts 153


19 posted 11-11-1999 11:39 AM       View Profile for Kelly   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kelly

I didn't read any of the replies because I'm sick to death of this subject. I see this site like a news paper with Ron as the editor. DE submitted trash and Ron edited it. End of story. I doubt any newspaper would print such trash so why does anyone expect Ron to allow it.
desperado
Member
since 05-24-99
Posts 361
FT Hood,Tx


20 posted 11-11-1999 12:04 PM       View Profile for desperado   Email desperado   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for desperado

1984 - interesting thoughts on what you have to say. Two things. The first thought that came to my mind was something my government teacher said in class (or was it heinlein in his novels? oh well.) Freedom only exsists so far as it doesn't hurt or infringe on another persons freedom or beliefs. why do you think that 200+ years after that famous American document was ratified that some of those words have been voided? "one nation, under God"? tell me, where is God in our schools? where is God in our government? he's there just for show or in run down classrooms with cracked walls and bibles with missing pages. why? because someone's freedom of speech for their beliefs was infringed. though I don't like it, I certainly respect it. a persons beliefs are great. wonderful. you stand for some thing in this barbie-doll world of money and fake beauty. congrats. but do you have to go and step on everyone's toes to make your beliefs heard? no. the other thought was that if you are an anarchist, then you would realize that you are for the dog eat dog lifestyle. everything you have is yours only as long as you keep it. isn't this what is being done here? it's his, he's gonna run it the way he wants to run it. I'm sorry you don't like it, but reality isn't nice. it's never candy coated. it's always a pain in some ones butt. you are welcome to stay, I like your views, but I don't like your cowardice. sooner or later, you will have to stand for something and act on it. you are a spineless person who needs to be proud of who you are and what you believe in. all I see is a whiney person who thinks that society has wronged him. it reminds me of someone close to me who's going to be seeing some time in jail. some very long time in jail in fact because she feels the same way and tried to make it right in her eyes. if you stand for what you believe, others will admire and respect you, if not like it. that is what makes an adult different from a child. the ability to stand for something you believe in.

james
Systematic Decay
Senior Member
since 09-15-99
Posts 1312
That place with padded walls a


21 posted 11-11-1999 11:26 PM       View Profile for Systematic Decay   Email Systematic Decay   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Systematic Decay

Phew......took me a while to read that one...

1984-**sigh** whoever you are, your method of posting was cowardly. I do agree with the ideals you brought up, but not the way it was written- as an attack.

Doreen, you say Scott seems to "think" some people are out to get him, but Ron noticed and pointed out that Scott is often berated not for the content, but for being him....I believe it was in Christopher's complaint.

Kelly, **sigh again** your reply was rude and unwarranted....an ATTACK- which seems to be what everyone is against, in one way or another, be it hypocritical or not.

The hypocracy I mention is that of the people who call Passions a kind place, yet encouraging a person to leave it because of a controversial topic.

Lastly, 1984, the last word does belong to Ron, he is the one who made the site- and if you have any gripes about it, I suggest you email him personally, instead of attacking him.

------------------
Thinking is just what a great many people think they are doing when they are merely rearranging their predjudices.


1984
New Member
since 11-10-1999
Posts 4


22 posted 11-12-1999 10:58 AM       View Profile for 1984   Email 1984   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for 1984

He who lets the world, or his own portion of it, choose
his plan of life for him, has no need of any other faculty
than the ape-like one of imitation. He who chooses his
plan for himself, employs all his faculties. He must use
observation to see, reasoning and judgment to foresee, ac-
tivity to gather materials for decision, discrimination to
decide, and when he has decided, firmness and self-control
to hold to his deliberate decision. And these qualities he
requires and exercises exactly in proportion as the part of his
conduct which he determines according to his own judgment
and feelings is a large one. It is possible that he might be
guided in some good path, and kept out of harm's way, with-
out any of these things. But what will be his comparative
worth as a human being? It really is of importance, not
only what men do, but also what manner of men they are
that do it. Among the works of man, which human life is
rightly employed in perfecting and beautifying, the first in
importance surely is man himself. Supposing it were pos-
sible to get houses built, corn grown, battles fought, causes
tried, and even churches erected and prayers said, by ma-
chinery--by automatons in human form--it would be a con-
siderable loss to exchange for these automatons even the
men and women who at present inhabit the more civilized
parts of the world, and who assuredly are but starved speci-
mens of what nature can and will produce. Human nature
is not a machine to be built after a model, and set to do
exactly the work prescribed for it, but a tree, which requires
to grow and develop itself on all sides, according to the
tendency of the inward forces which make it a living thing.

John Stuart Mills, On Liberty

[This message has been edited by 1984 (edited 11-17-1999).]
suthern
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Seraphic
since 07-29-99
Posts 20770
on the threshold of a dream


23 posted 11-12-1999 12:15 PM       View Profile for suthern   Email suthern   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for suthern

Your argument for anonymity didn't change with your name, did it? But then, change isn't always necessary... and certainly isn't always good.
Michael
Moderator
Member Ascendant
since 08-13-99
Posts 6333
California


24 posted 11-12-1999 12:38 PM       View Profile for Michael   Email Michael   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michael

1984,

Well let me just say I have traveled many times and many miles, as plenty of us here have to meet each other. We are family. We are not just an email address, and a name on the screen. However, sadly, you obviously will never be able to see past your own obstinancy to become more than that.


Michael
 
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