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Passions in Poetry

Freedom of speech (or..delete this NOW Ron)

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desperado
Member
since 05-24-99
Posts 361
FT Hood,Tx


25 posted 11-12-1999 01:43 PM       View Profile for desperado   Email desperado   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for desperado

ignorance and arrogance only lead way to mass destruction. you have both. I will not try to make this personal, but I tell people the TRUTH, be it good or bad, soft or harsh. There is a time and a place for a particular method for dispensing truth, but never one for dispensing lies. you can candy coat it or you can be blunt or you can choose not to say anything. point blank. I agree with michael. Doreen is like my aunt as is Nan. Michael is like a brother and various people on and on. I may not agree with their perspectives, but I still respect them for it. and it's that respect and honesty that keeps the friendship viable and vibrant.

may you find your niche here. for I know there is one. but sometimes you must change your method for expressing your beliefs. don't change them, just find other ways to express them.
doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028
Virginia


26 posted 11-12-1999 01:59 PM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

Hello again, all. Before I begin to say what I hope will be the last I feel the need to say about all this, I just want to say that I think it's wonderful, indeed, to be amongst such intelligent, thinking and caring individuals.

All who have posted in this thread, bar none, have expressed what appear to be true and sincere empathy and outreach toward each other. There are clearly differences of opinion, but if you look at the whole picture, you will see human beings who care so much about what they believe in to take a stand for it.... and to stand by others who believe how they believe. That, my friends, is freedom, isn't it? We are truly free if we can openly discuss our differences and display our adament beliefs in a public forum. No doubt in my mind that this is what freedom of speech is all about.

I also want to say that I'm sick of this subject, too, but dammit! I just can't seem to leave erroneous comments alone or ask for clarification when I don't understand what someone else has said. So, that's why I'm writing to this thread again.

Ok, now I have just another couple of things to say. Systematic Decay said this,

"Doreen, you say Scott seems to "think" some people are out to get him, but Ron noticed and pointed out that Scott is often berated not for the content, but for being him....I believe it was in Christopher's complaint.
Kelly, **sigh again** your reply was rude and unwarranted....an ATTACK- which seems to be what everyone is against, in one way or another, be it hypocritical or not."


(i hope I did the html right to make the above bold. If not, sorry)

To the statement directed toward me, I have no personal experience with any replies to Scott's posts berating him as a person, not in response to his content. It matters not to me that Ron has apparently stated he has interpreted responses to DE's posts as such. Not that I don't respect Ron's opinion... I most certainly do! But I have not personally seen this. Therefore, if someone (DE... Systematic Decay... 1984? Anybody?) could send me a link via e-mail to such responses to DE's posts, I'd very much like to witness this first hand. If someone has been publicly personally berated or attacked, I would be up in arms about this myself. Until I see first hand that this has actually happened, I'll stick to my opinion stated in my previous lengthy post (whew! I DO get long-winded, don't I?)

As for Systematic Decay's second comment directed toward Kelly and claiming that Kelly has attacked DE by saying he "submitted trash" .... geez!!! You think that's an ATTACK? No, my friend, that is simply Kelly's opinion regarding the content of the document. Kelly's words here do not personally attack DE. On the contrary! They speak about the content of the "literature".

Here I'd like to insert, that I recently went to another bulletin board where DE's "Halloween Story" got rave reviews from the other poets, many of whom I greatly respect. They disagree with Kelly and I, I guess, but that's what freedom of speech is all about, isn't it? I was really surprised at so many positive responses because the content of the piece was, in my opinion, intended to be disturbing with no resolution to the evil. Frankly, it made me sick on my stomach. (That was a comment regarding the content, btw, not a personal attack on DE... just thought I'd clear that up in advance).

And finally *wiping sweat from brow*, I have a couple of questions I'd like 1984 to answer:

You said,

"Yes, there are several other places to hang out, which I do, that have no moderators, no edit functions, no advertisements. They offer real freedom, real expression, without edit."

Questions:

(1) - I'm sure you've seen me at these other sites, as well, and I like it there VERY much btw, but.... here's the question.... If you like so much no edit functions, no moderators, and all that, why don't you accept those people here who openly speak that they do not think certain types of writing are art, but instead, consider them valueless and degrading? Why can't I say that here? If I said it on the other sites, you'd call it free speech but if I say it here, you call it the "Decorum" of a site which censors people? You speak from two sides of your mouth.

and (last question)

(2) Do you honestly think that all public bulletin boards would allow the KKK to post messages of hate without censor? If you do, you should think again. Most all responsible online community bulletin boards would not allow such posts. This is because, (thank God), the majority of people on this planet are learning not to hate people. Hate verbiage is tolerated less and less. And similarly, verbiage condoning violence and human abuse is being tolerated less and less.

Ok, that's all I have to say (that's what I said last time, huh? hehehe oh, except, loved your post, james! You are a fantastic human being and I wish you all the best of luck in Korea... I will miss you VERY much).

Good day to all. Happy community living! Peace and love and rock'n'roll! Pass the bottle of wine, I'm going out of this one in style!

Damn it feels good to have a place to speak my mind!!!! Woohoo! I absolutely LOVE freedom of speech!!!

your friend,

doreen peri
1984
New Member
since 11-10-1999
Posts 4


27 posted 11-12-1999 03:12 PM       View Profile for 1984   Email 1984   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for 1984

Doreen,

In answer to your questions:

My problem is not that others have points of view different than mine, but rather that one person (or several people) made decisions for me as to what is or isn't objectionable to me. Free speach involves the freedom not to listen, or herein not to read. Ron and or the moderators had the right to read the postings in question, but I did not. I (and hundreds like me) did not have a chance to ignore it or to post our views for or against it either. Free speech cannot be free speech when it is moderated by a small minority of a populace, in the name of "public good".

As well, on those other sites, you know as well as I do that hate, vulgarity, negativity and sexual postings are made that would (I assume) be taken off that this site. What do we do as those sites?? We avoid the postings, we skip over them, and perhaps we shout back. It goes both ways, and all.

I am not speaking as I see it from both sides of my mouth; my disagreement with you does not mean I want Ron to edit your words (nor others) or censure them. In fact, it does not matter whose words are really censored, it affects me and those rights as much as if it were my own words. As I have said, Ron has the legal ability to continue censorship, I believe that he should not have the moral.

It might open up a can of worms in a closed society, but at least no one is making the decision for me, and for ALL OF YOU, as to what is objectionable.

Michael,

Your use of the term obstinancy (sic) to describe my posting of views upon a forum described as a place for "Ö for flaming, complainin', and screaming your head off. " seems to again solidify your personal viewpoint.

Yes, I probably do not wish to make my family and community relationships contingent upon the decorum and social order you speak of. Nor, I suppose, would you wish for those changes that open challenge and diversity might bring about.


Desperado,

You are speaking of friendships, I am speaking of one man making a decision for me as to what I should see and not. This does not personally involve Ron or Nan or Michael, as I know them only from here, and they seem fine to me, excepting that they wish to be my censors.

It has to do with keeping an order which keeps postings (potentially art, criticism or as well, crap) from your eyes. My opinions are not universal TRUTH nor lies, but opinions. They are my truths, just as yours are yours. Nevertheless, opinions involve much more than fact, bit instead the interpretation by individual of facts.

I am saying I do not want to be censored and I do not want to be fix into a box. Those, are truths to me.

I am unsure how freedom of expression, whether in reading or in writing, becomes "ignorance and arrogance (that can) only lead way to mass destruction".

One might think the opposite might be true.


[This message has been edited by 1984 (edited 11-12-1999).]
Michael
Moderator
Member Ascendant
since 08-13-99
Posts 6333
California


28 posted 11-12-1999 04:22 PM       View Profile for Michael   Email Michael   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michael

1984,

Freedom of speech, freedom of expression is your right to express at your own expense. It becomes "arogance" when you seek to express it at other people's expense, (should we just allow insulting and crude comments with a grain of salt because people like you wish to talk trash - or see it?) As I said before, Passions is not the biggest site on the net (and still growing rather fast) for no reason. It is the environment provided by Passions that makes it so successful.

You cry of freedom of speech becomes "ignorance" when you come in here in an insulting manner such as you did and point fingers to one man. You should realize that no one is forced to be here. We are all here because our interests as a whole are protected here, unlike some of the other websites you have mentioned, and we all stand behind it. You should also realize that no one asked you to leave, we let you know that "freedom of speech" does not mean you can post vulgarities on someone else's website if they have rules prohibiting it - it means you are free to get you own website to voice whatever you feel in any manner you feel.

Obstinate in my Webster's reads; unreasonably determined to have one's own way, stubborn, not yielding to reason.

This being so, and the fact you make me want to "scream my head off" led me to use that word in the Alley post, where I still deem it proper. To me, you are very obstinate. Even this post I know will churn no worthwhile contingency of thought in you I'm sure. I, personally, just don't understand how you can feel so violated by what another man chooses to allow on HIS website. I can't go to McDonald's and demand speghetti because I like Italian food. How can you come in here and demand Ron to allow smut because it is to your taste?

You can twist at mine and everyone else's words all you like but the points haven't changed. Your rights are in no manner violated. No one is forcing you to fit in a censored box, but if you choose to, then why so much whining over censorship when it, in fact, was your choice to participate. There's plenty of other boxes out there, or I will reiterate one more time, you're "free" to build your own.


Michael



[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 11-12-1999).]
desperado
Member
since 05-24-99
Posts 361
FT Hood,Tx


29 posted 11-12-1999 04:53 PM       View Profile for desperado   Email desperado   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for desperado

I'm sorry 1984. you crack me up. I just about laughed at your last comment. obviously you are ignorant and arrogant because you can't see that regardless of what view you look at something, you can always be brought to mass destruction. but seeing as how you don't think that ignorance and arrogance can do that only nail you coffin shut in my eyes. you are not an annoyance, but merely something to be looked on in abject humor. like a cloud in the sky that changes in to say... dogbert. an amusement and a retreat from normal reality. not worthy of any real reaction. so please stay. you humor me.

please everyone, read this guys stuff and only laugh. he isn't that much to worry about. =-)

Skyfyre
Senior Member
since 08-15-99
Posts 1966
Sitting in Michael's Lap


30 posted 11-12-1999 06:59 PM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

I was hoping I would not find it necessary to involve myself in this incident, as I have nothing but respect for all of those who were involved ... though I know none of them personally. In that way, I suppose I have somewhat of an objective view of the situation.

1984, I have no idea what sites you frequent, nor do I desire to. Though I am an avid proponent of free speech in general, I admit that when it comes to what I like to read, write, and otherwise be exposed to, I have definite limits. That is why I do not visit porn sites, nor watch horror films, nor even watch the evening news -- I know I will find some things I see there distasteful.

By the same token, that is exactly why I frequent Passions in Poetry -- I have recognized that there exists a set of limits here that closely mimic my own. Like it or not, 1984, we all have our own sense of morality, our own ideas about right and wrong, and our own set of tastes. With those in mind, we seek out people, places, and activities which adhere, more or less, to those precepts -- unless, of course, we seek to sow the seeds of controversy. It is precisely that "crop," rather than any other purpose you have touted here, which I believe you hoped to reap the fruits of when you posted this complaint.

Do not assume from my assertion of personal morality that I am at all in support of any displays of intolerance. Indeed, I was one of the few who defended DreamEvil's rights to "free speech" following a barrage of attacks on one of his more controversial posts. It was not the opinions of the respondents, but rather the manner in which they were worded, which prompted me to rush to the author's defense. Just as there is no room at this site for the posting of filth for its own sake, there is no room for the posting of venom to express displeasure at having had one's sensibilities offended. My advice now, as it was then, is: "if you don't like it, keep scrolling." There is absolutely no call for the posting of direct personal attacks by anyone -- and that includes anonymous flag-wavers such as yourself. Your opinion is well enough, if you have the tenacity to stand behind it. If not, please do not waste your time stating it, because no one respects the wailings of a coward.

This is Ron's home; he pays the bills, he keeps it clean. He is and has been a gracious host, even to those who oppose him. If you haven't the courtesy to wipe your feet at the proverbial door, I for one would be the first to volunteer to throw you out on your ... well, you believe in the right to expression ... I'll let you fill in the rest.

Nocht
IsabelleSkye
Member
since 06-27-99
Posts 262


31 posted 11-12-1999 07:58 PM       View Profile for IsabelleSkye   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for IsabelleSkye

I really think the way everyone rallies around this site is incredible! I'm sorry that 1984 feels it necessary to stir up strife here, again so soon after the last episode. Just a thought tho, you know those neat little IP #'s? Does 1984's match anyone you know? *wink*
The New Detective
Izzzzy

------------------
"With love's light wings did I o'er-perch these walls; for stony limits cannot hold love out; and what love can do that dares love attempt." Romeo & Juliet Act II
Systematic Decay
Senior Member
since 09-15-99
Posts 1312
That place with padded walls a


32 posted 11-12-1999 09:24 PM       View Profile for Systematic Decay   Email Systematic Decay   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Systematic Decay

Issabelle, that is not a dead giveaway- Ip's can be changed by using a different computer or (I think) Internet service. And besides, what would we do if we did find out? Kick Him/her out of passions?

Doreen, I have seen people berate Scott's work, simply because it is his, and that is exactly what Ron said, I'm not going to search and search for the links...
If you don't think calling someones work "trash" without backing it up, or, better yet, using less biased and opinionated words, is an attack.....what DOES constitute an attack?

------------------
Thinking is just what a great many people think they are doing when they are merely rearranging their predjudices.


doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028
Virginia


33 posted 11-13-1999 12:21 AM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

Systematic Decay, you said,

"If you don't think calling someones work "trash" without backing it up, or, better yet, using less biased and opinionated words, is an attack.....what DOES constitute an attack?

I guess an attack would be something like this, "

"I think you're an asshole. You post some blatantly evil **** and I think you don't have a brain in your head! You're an ASS! And you are a sorry excuse for a human being! I hope my children don't grow up like you!"

...But since *nobody* said anything REMOTELY like that, but they only said THIS:

"I think this... NO, I KNOW this... I hate the hate and anger and violence against women and children and people offend me!"

Then, you can clearly see a difference between ATTACKING a PERSON vs. making a social comment strongly about the CONTENT of a piece.

Do you catch my drift?


---------------
I'm so tired of this... i'm going to bed... God bless you wonderful people.


peace and love,

doreen peri
Kelly
Member
since 07-03-99
Posts 153


34 posted 11-13-1999 05:06 AM       View Profile for Kelly   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kelly

Systematic Decay,
Go back four months and read DE's work. I've had nothing but praise for his work. My comments were about this one piece. I will not take back my thoughts or apologize. I don't hate DE. I think he is very talented. I hate what HE chose to write about.
Big Brother
New Member
since 11-13-1999
Posts 1


35 posted 11-13-1999 05:28 AM       View Profile for Big Brother   Email Big Brother   Edit/Delete Message     View IP for Big Brother

Is free speech an absolute? No. (enough said)

Change may not always be good, but it is always inevitable.

DE has said above that he has not retaliated for any "attacks". How did he get the enemies that Ron refers to in his reply to Christopher's Complaint?

I didn't read the story, but since Doreen says she saw it at another site how can it be that bad? If it was horrible then how would it get posted?

If someone could answer these questions, I would be able to reply more in depth since there seems to be gaps in the big picture.

------------------
Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 05-20-99
Posts 24426
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


36 posted 11-13-1999 06:39 AM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

It amazes me that we're giving so much attention to someone who not only hides behind a new personna for the subversive purposes of this post (not to mention the "new" members appearing as their only supporters), but also refuses to reveal their true identity "unless others do the same".
Ron Carnell hides nothing. He shows you his true face and stands tall behind his own eminently fair principles. Give him and the rest of us the the same courtesy or lay off the contumelious derision-
Have you the guts to put your money where your mouth is, 1984?

Nancy Ness
Falmouth, Massachusetts
naniness@capecod.net

[This message has been edited by Nan (edited 11-13-1999).]
Munda
Member Elite
since 10-08-1999
Posts 3629
The Hague, The Netherlands


37 posted 11-13-1999 09:17 AM       View Profile for Munda   Email Munda   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Munda's Home Page   View IP for Munda

I didnít want to get involved in this topic. Nevertheless I feel now is the time to say something.

1984 : Yes, you are entitled to your own opninion. However it saddens me to see you didnít have enough trust in the people around you to say you disagree under your known name. You may have been surprised with respect instead of the reactions you provoked by doing it this way.

All of you sweet defending souls: Itís heartwarming to see how you all take a stand for Ron. Iím sure itís appreciated a lot, but also keeping the wound open. Iím sure Ron didnít like what happened any more than Scott and it seems to me they both want to get this over and done with and move on. By replying to this topic you keep sending it to the top over and over again. Maybe it should just disappear by not replying.


Dream Evil: I understand what you are saying, perhaps.........ARGH...no perhaps, maybe, or what if ! What happened, happened and is in the past. It seems to me Ron and you are still friends, which pleases me and shows that despite different interpretations, opinions and views on life, you both found a way to deal with it, still respect each other and not let it stand in the way of your friendship. I think thatís admirable.
Iím also glad to see you are still posting. I think you are a very gifted poet and am very glad youíre sharing your poems with us.

Ron: I truly hope this will be the very last e-mail notification you will receive on this topic and for what itís worth; I think youíre doing a great job.

I pray these are indeed the last words spend on this topic. It has been argued, questioned and discussed from every point of view.

THE END ??

Munda

Systematic Decay
Senior Member
since 09-15-99
Posts 1312
That place with padded walls a


38 posted 11-13-1999 12:06 PM       View Profile for Systematic Decay   Email Systematic Decay   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Systematic Decay

Doreen, since I didn't read this: "I think this... NO, I KNOW this... I hate the hate and anger and violence against women and children and people offend me!" Which I have no idea where it was said, and I only read this "I didn't read any of the replies because I'm sick to death of this subject. I see this site like a news paper with Ron as the editor. DE submitted trash and Ron edited it. End of story. I doubt any newspaper would print such trash so why does anyone expect Ron to allow it." Which is simply namecalling, maybe not to the author, but to the piece, I think she was attacking. To call something, anything, "trash" with no dispute, as if your word is the only opinion, is an attack.

Kellly, I understand that you didn't like what DE worte....BUT, was it necessary to ATTACK it like that? Couldn't you have protested it in a more civil and mature way?

I must agree that I too am sick to death of the subject, but I simply cannot sit back and watch while I have things to say, which may be selfish of me, but it is the way I am. So everytime I think, this will be the last thing I post on this topic, which I am doing now, I know that I will come back later to check this thread, and find a post that I just HAVE to rply to. So Ron, I apologize for adding an uneccessary email saying that you have a reply.

------------------
Thinking is just what a great many people think they are doing when they are merely rearranging their predjudices.


1984
New Member
since 11-10-1999
Posts 4


39 posted 11-13-1999 03:44 PM       View Profile for 1984   Email 1984   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for 1984

I, as the originator of this tempest, wish to move it towards closure.

While I originally attempted, in some passion, to bring about protest and healthy discussion, it has instead become much too personal, and possibly effected several members of this site, which had no part in it whatsoever. I will admit to my share of culpability in that regard. In reading the posts, the thought of a "witch-hunt" came to mind. In order to exonerate the innocent, being know or anonymous, I will herein state who I am.

The basis of my claims is that the creator of any work is above edit. Above moderation. They are not above criticism and comment, but are above edit in any form. This I consider a basic human right, so strongly that I cannot stand for it to be infringed upon. My basis for that is that I have been in many cultures, been in places I could not leave, detained even on the basis of my passport, had print media removed from me, and have been in political situations where free speech, as we in the States know it, would be criminal and subject to not the easiest of moderations. In the states, we see our freedoms as givens, which need not be proven again. We utilize our right to "opt-out" of free speech, and even free government. While people in many places in the world turn out in huge numbers, at their own personal risk, to exercise their free speech upon government, we in the states allow a minority to elect our officials while we have no risk whatsoever.
Am I applying larger situations to that perhaps minute? I see no place where these things must always exist but firstly within the smaller groups where all things build or decay. Am I applying a moral too high? Perhaps, but I see no reason when a personal moral should be lowered- in any or all mediums.

I am my own censor.

Secondly, censorship leads to mediocrity. Several have made statements equating free speech to "smut", which I find somewhat interesting and arbitrary. In the censorship of art (albeit as presented) you will most surely reduce the level of objectionable and useless works that are visible. As well, you will stifle those that are breaking new ground, those that have real potential for evolution in art. The works of Whitman, Ginsberg, and even Poe, Salinger, Hemmingway, Chaucer, Shakespeare, Paine and so many others have been banned- or worse. Trials have been waged in courtrooms over what our children now find mandatory reading in public schools or colleges. The very basis of the art we call poetry was not made by those that fit established norms. Those writers took their hits from critics and the public alike yet challenged and broadened our mind for so many generations and centuries to come.

Yet the works produced in societies with censorship was away quickly. Of soviet Russia, post Mao China, and the Third Reich, no works of excellence can be found, only those of challenge created in protest.

Therein lies my stand. I will not post where the next Ginsberg will not be able to. So, therein, I sadly take that great american opt-out, and by virtue of a email copy of this to Ron, request that my name and postings, in their entirety be deleted. This is no great loss to the site, believe me. I have no great works nor any group to follow me. You shall have atleast one single obstinate protestor removed. As one who believes in non-violent protest and the challenge of change, and those issues shown again in protracted prose above, this is the only action I have.

It should be made clear that I have only posted protest under this name, none other, and literally know none of the others involved in any way. Further, as has been my way as long as I have been posting anywhere (Since June, 1999 here) on the 'net, I have retained a single, exclusive name. No other than those two names have been the work of my hand or voice in any way shape or form. Of course those few that know me at all will know that I have never posted a single objectionable thing on any site, and have fought as well against negativism and where I can. Believing in free speech as well gives one the right to fight against that you find objectionable.

My only request to Ron, is that if he must have a policy of censorship, that it be written, fully disclosed on the site and contain clear, concise and applicable verbiage to the new comer and resident alike. That I feel you owe to the public, but you have no liability (as pointed out by Michael) to do anything you wish not to. But perhaps morality and forthrightness is beyond liability.

I will not further debate this here and leave you in peace with wishes of good fortune, and great beauty in your art. As for full disclosure, as requested, all are now welcome to know who I am and react as they see fit. I have no self-seen reputation to gain or uphold.

"Boomtown"

A/K/A H. Andrew Danforth,
Personal email: Tristessa@start.com.au
Office phone, usually voicemail (530) 685-5335
Arlington, Va, USA
13Nov99


Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 05-20-99
Posts 24426
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


40 posted 11-13-1999 04:47 PM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

Andrew
Thank you for coming forward. I respect you for doing that. You know that I also respect your philosophies... You also know how I feel about your poetry, and that I certainly don't want this site to lose you. I do wish you'd emailed me - Perhaps you'll be open to such discourse?
Kelly
Member
since 07-03-99
Posts 153


41 posted 11-13-1999 05:54 PM       View Profile for Kelly   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kelly

Systematic Decay,
Have you ever been raped? I have. Maybe that's why I feel so strongly about this subject matter.
Systematic Decay
Senior Member
since 09-15-99
Posts 1312
That place with padded walls a


42 posted 11-13-1999 06:03 PM       View Profile for Systematic Decay   Email Systematic Decay   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Systematic Decay

Kelly, I am truly sorry you were raped, but was that Scott's fault? There were warnings that the story was explicit and offensive. You should have never read it, or once you read it, shouldn't have blamed scott. It's like walking across the street when the sign says don't walk and claiming it was someone else fault you were hit.

And, once again, was it really necessary to call it trash? Even though you didn't like the content, it was very well written. So therefore, it isn't trash. It is a literary work, whether you liked the content or not.

------------------
Thinking is just what a great many people think they are doing when they are merely rearranging their predjudices.


DreamEvil
Member Elite
since 06-22-99
Posts 2442


43 posted 11-13-1999 10:24 PM       View Profile for DreamEvil   Email DreamEvil   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit DreamEvil's Home Page   View IP for DreamEvil

Woe betide me, for I needs must reply again.

Kelly I am sorry you have been raped. Most every female friend I have has been. That is where some of my inspiration for horror comes from. I have taken women to the hospital while they miscarried a child due to their husband's beatings. There is enough horror, but not enough awareness of it. If there were enough awareness of it, there would not be so few rapists going to jail, nor repeat offenders released.

Why were some so vehemently wanting the removal of 1984 when he was anonymous, then asked him to stay once his identity was revealed? The same person with the same morals and beliefs, but popularity or notoriety or length of affiliation determines a complete turnaround in attitude towards him, that I find odd.

As a side note, I wonder how many actually read Christopher's Complaint in its entirety. I wonder because, well let me quote an excerpt from it;

quote:
Over the course of several months I have seen repeated attacks on Scott's posts not simply because of content, but simply because they were Scott's posts. You can tell the difference, and so can I, especially when those attacks always seem to stem from the same sources. Similar posts, from other people, have gone unmolested. I've received email, time and again, from people along similar themes. Scott has not just attracted enemies, but enemies with vehemence.

Don't misunderstand me: I'm not suggesting people shouldn't make judgements about what they deem acceptable or not acceptable. I'm not suggesting people should remain silent having made those judgements. On the contrary, I firmly believe it is every person's responsibility to denounce what they perceive as contrary to their own set of values. Silence is just another tool of apathy.

But that hasn't always been what I've seen. Attacks based on values are consistent, not targeted. I have seen only a handful of responsible people speaking out against something they believe. Instead, I've seen far too many enemies, whose attacks have largely been clouded by anger and hate. Ah, but do I hear them muttering? "The hate and the fear and the disgust have all been justified." And the words I hear being muttered aren't even spoken in German.

As long as we find reasons to hate, there will be hate. Scott's enemies, those who have attacked him in public and in private, don't get up in the morning, look in the mirror, and see the face of a villain. But their hatred, justified though they may feel it is, is just one drop of the ocean that is drowning mankind's world. We are hating ourselves into oblivion, one drop at a time, one justified reason at a time. Hate a man's actions, not the man. Try to stop those actions, not destroy the man. Act out of conviction, not out of hate. If Passions is truly to be a place of tolerance and respect, there can never be room for hatred.

In parting, I'd like to commend Scott on his commitment and devotion to Passions, and on the not always easy task of building the Prose forum into what it is today. We own him our thanks for the tireless hours he has given us. Though not a Moderator, Scott will continue to be Member in good standing and will continue to post. And I hope his enemies will get up in the morning, look in the mirror, and perhaps see a slightly difference face staring back at them.


That is a direct quote from Ron, by the way.
I am merely curious as to how many actually read it all.

Though my opinion in this is of little note, I too would wish that Boomtown would stay.

------------------
Now and forever, my heart hears ~one voice~.
DreamEvil©

Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 05-26-99
Posts 25869
Hurricane Alley


44 posted 11-13-1999 10:46 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine


Rumble of Hate
(for all my passionate friends)

I heard a distant rumble of hate
thundering on the hill
Barbs of lightening sliced my heart
Bringing pain from its ill will
The battle raged before me
Tears of sorrow welled in my eyes
Cries of disbelief mingled
With painful sobbing sighs

Give hope a hand
in someoneís life
Reach out with love
To end this strife

Get along,
live in peace
Make this place
A passionate surcease



[This message has been edited by Poet deVine (edited 11-13-1999).]
Boomtown
Junior Member
since 07-01-99
Posts 20


45 posted 11-14-1999 08:14 AM       View Profile for Boomtown   Email Boomtown   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Boomtown

Thank you, Nan, for your words of reconciliation. However, It seems that there would be little to discuss. I will not further post nor exist in a place that conflicts with my morality. Not can I ask the opposite of you. As well, as a rare posting member of a site, expect you to go to this McDonalds and ask for Swordfish steak, to paraphrase Michael. So I'll the counter behind and call it a day.

Most of my works have been deleted as of this morning, with some help from your moderators, not so oddly. The rest shall be gone within a day or two.

Again, I urge you to post prominantly the disclosure I wrote of in my last message. Easier to point to a statement of policy when the next Andrew comes along.

I'll see you on the Scroll.

A
Michael
Moderator
Member Ascendant
since 08-13-99
Posts 6333
California


46 posted 11-14-1999 08:28 AM       View Profile for Michael   Email Michael   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michael

Well 1984,

You keep saying this is the end and then you keep coming back for more. the "policy" was given you when you signed on as a member was it not? Or did you just not take the time to read it? I am finished with this. I surely can't wait till everyone else is.

And just to keep the record straight - BOOMTOWN deleted his own poetry, then bumped the posts to the top of the forums with protest statements. I deleted the threads then, as the open forums are for poetry - not announcencements and not for protest statements.


Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 11-14-1999).]
doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028
Virginia


47 posted 11-14-1999 10:36 AM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

Hey, Boomtown! Is that really you? LOL. I'm so glad you finally told us! I was going crazy trying to figure it out. God bless you for having such strong beliefs and convictions and stating them so succinctly. I knew this was someone I knew who knew how to write very well! (that's a lot of "knews" isn't it?) But the real news is that you've told us who you are and more than that,

YOU LIVE IN ARLINGTON? Geez.....

How come you didn't come to our little get together in September here in Virginia? Sure woulda been nice to meet you after so long.

Well, I surely will see you at the Scroll, but y'know what? Although I understand you have strong beliefs and convictions and truly did follow every word you wrote here, we'll miss you here, my friend! I know you say you will not reconsider your take on posting here in the future, and I accept it, but wish you'd reconsider. After all, we are not talking about book burning like in "Fehrenheit 451" (sorry, can't spell that). We are really talking about the fact that Passions is a different type of "publication", if you will, than the Scroll or others.... it's like comparing People Magazine with The Rolling Stone (or something vague like that... hehehe... couldn't think of a really good analogy).

If you want to read Scott's horror story, it is posted at Artistic Expressions bulletin board. If you e-mail me, I will send you the URL. So, you see? Another editor has chosen to let it stay, so it's not like you can't read it somewhere.

Ok, Andrew, my colleague and friend, will see you soon at the Scroll and you take care, ok? Plus, I live very close to you if you ever want to meet for happy hour or something.

doreen
Systematic Decay
Senior Member
since 09-15-99
Posts 1312
That place with padded walls a


48 posted 11-14-1999 11:21 AM       View Profile for Systematic Decay   Email Systematic Decay   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Systematic Decay

OK, I've noticed it too, Scott, your not alone. Why are some people so immediately forgiving when he revealed his identity.....Nan and Doreen, you two were absolutely furious, and now you are kind-hearted and hoping he will stay? However, I can't say I agree with his work being deleted...besides, what is the point, when it has just been proved he can VERY easily just come back as another, new member, if he so chooses.

------------------
Thinking is just what a great many people think they are doing when they are merely rearranging their predjudices.


Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 05-20-99
Posts 24426
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


49 posted 11-14-1999 01:51 PM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

Systematic Decay

Please reread the comments posted here by both Andrew/Boomtown and myself.

While I did not delete anything of Boom's, and I really don't want to see any of it deleted - he did, in fact, request here within this thread that he wanted his work removed. I respect his wishes. It's his work and his choice.

I was never angry at Andrew for expressing his opinions. He has an absolute right to feel them and to state them. I have had a positive rapport with this man for well over a year, and I totally expect that will continue. We can disagree - and still respect each other and remain friends.

I do wish that he had used his own "posting" name, so that we could have had a more productive discussion in this thread. This, again, is simply my opinion. Had he posted as "Boomtown", I would have had a better understanding of the basis of his comments.

My personal opinion is that pseudonyms are "fun" to use for frolicsome ventures such as the insanity in the 'stute. However, you'll never see me post a serious poem or comment under anything other than my own name. People know my attitudes and base their interpretations of my comments on their knowledge of my previous postings. If I were to step in and make comments with a totally new pseudonym, I would not have my personal recognizance to stand upon. As wonderfully idealistic is it may be that we should be judged on the credibility of the moment, I learned long ago that our past words and actions make us what we are today.

My response in this thread was not an angry one. It was posted rather to stand in support of a very dear friend whose personal philosophies have built this wonderful home for nearly 1700 poets (less some nebulous number of Justin's et.al.). I will never post a comment on these forums that's motivated by the impulse of negative emotion. I will, however, always support Ron's eminently fair expectations of the members here at Passions.


[This message has been edited by Nan (edited 11-14-1999).]
 
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