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Reguarding Dream and Izzy

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Member Ascendant
since 08-13-99
Posts 6333

0 posted 11-01-1999 05:14 AM       View Profile for Michael   Email Michael   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michael

I apologize to one and all for my lack of input during the events of the last couple of days. The happenings have not been easy for me to incur as an individual as I hold deep friendships on both sides of the ongoing arguments and for the most part, don't think or react clearly in moments of such stress do to occurances in my past, which most of you at least have some idea of.

DreamEvil is a goodfriend of mine and when he hurts I hurt, as I am now. I feel I can say this in total confidence that Dream and I will still be friends when I am finished. Dream, made a conscious decision to post a piece that he knew would draw some controversy as similiar pieces in the past have. He did this having been warned for at least one previous incident, (This was not a first offence). This being the case, with Dream not just being a member of Passions, but a moderator that represents Passions, I think Ron did the best possible thing in Passions' interests. Ron, has allowed Dream to stay on with passions as a member, which is commendable. I don't know how Ron could or would expect anyone to follow his rules, (which we all agreed to in becoming members), if he allowed his moderators to break them consistantly.

Freedom of speech is the main argument I keep seeing here. Well, freedom of speech has not been hindered. I am allowed, as are all of you, to write anything. I have the right to post it on the net on "my own" web page...Freedom of speech does not give me the right to post it on "any" web page nor even leave such a link without owner's permission. That we can read such material as Dream posted in any bookstore has no bearing here...we are not in a bookstore. This is Ron Carnell's web page and we are all guest on it. Ron has set some simple guidelines and if they can't be appreciated, there are plenty lesser quality pages out there with much lower standards, I'm sure.

Let me reiterate that DreamEvil is a close friend of mine. He has helped me through some pretty tough times. I know Ron views him as a friend too, and that this whole incident has been hard on all involved.
I only hope that somehow when all this dust clears, views on my friendship haven't swayed.

Systematic Decay and Kess have been pretty adamant in stating their cases here in the Alley, and with the upmost respect to both of them, I would only like to state that neither has been with the page long enough to understand all that has transpired here. This wasn't all based on the one incident which you have witnessed, nor will I go into detail drudging up past events.

Others who do know more regrettably have not stepped forward but I feel I must for one reason, anyway. Isabelle Skye is a long time friend who was deeply frightened by what she read in Dream's post. I should first remind some people that she was directed to that post to that post by someone knowing she would be disturbed...being that she is a mother of two and in the hopes that she would react as she I was also directed to the post in the same manner.

That Izzy posted her "emotional" response to the public may not have been in her best judgement but then...I don't fully understand that it can be viewed as equally damaging as the questionable post itself. One was made out of a conscious decision and probably took hours to write. One was written in about 5 minutes with shaking hands from an emotionally overwhelmed, frightened mother and posted without having time to think better of it...this I know because I was talking with Izzy as she posted it.

Ron, she even sent me the message before she posted it and I told her she should post what she felt...I am as much to blame as anyone. A lot of people were deeply upset and I was caught right in the middle. In posting this, I hope I am not doing Passions anymore damage than has already been done. I also hope you can understand that I cannot leave Izzy out here alone, when she didn't exactly come here by her own choosing, nor post her reply to Dream's poem in complete disregard to you or Passions. In thoroughly understanding her views, and caught up in all the emotion that was swirling around the page, I told her to post her note as is...which to me leaves just as much in err as she.

I would ask that you give careful consideration to your decision on Izzy's moderatorship. She has been with Passion's from the get, and in my view hasn't done that bad by it. You gave Dream at least one warning, I would hope Izzy deserves at leat the same. Ron, please understand I am NOT questioning your judgement, only asking you to consider what you may not have known in making this decision.

I would ask certain others to at least email Ron if you do not feel capable of stepping forward and you know who you are that I refer to. Izzy and Dream, you are both very dear to me. I love you both and wherever this leads I hope we will alway be friends.

These are simply my views and concerns, I am mentally exausted, I will not argue them with anyone at present.

Thank You,


[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 11-01-1999).]
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US

1 posted 11-01-1999 06:48 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I had not intended to reply to any more posts on this topic, but I cannot not respond to this one. Nonetheless, I'm going to try to keep this short and to the point.

If you look in Q&A, in response to a question from RainbowGirl, you'll find a post that really says about all I can say about Izzy. I'm going to quote part of it here:

Izzy is a slightly different story. I did not agree with the tone of her posts, and I tried to explain to her why. But I also consider her posts to be an isolated instance and not typical of her normally good judgment. I think her apology to DreamEvil and the members of Passions is far more indicative of her judgement - and her integrity - than her angry posts will ever be. She's no longer a moderator at her own request - angry as that request may have been at the time - and because I made the mistake of reacting to her anger instead of talking to her.

I sincerely regret not confirming Izzy's intention before acting. But setting aside her letter to me, if you read just her initial post in Adult, I thought it clear she intended to not remain at Passions if Scott was allowed to remain. And I refuse to be forced into that kind of decision between two friends.

Izzy will always be welcome in any place I call home. I've known her very nearly as long as I've known you, Michael, longer than I've known Nan. She has always meant a great deal to me and always will. She is a sweet, endearing woman, with an insight I will always envy. I've said these words several times in the past 48 hours, in several posts. I've written her. And all I've recieved is silence.

There are many, many things in the past few days that have saddened and frustrated me. But the saddest of them all, to me, is that Izzy has chosen to "avoid conflict," at the expense of friendship. I understand her decision to simply walk away. I respect it. But it still hurts.

since 06-27-99
Posts 262

2 posted 11-01-1999 09:27 AM       View Profile for IsabelleSkye   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for IsabelleSkye

What am I supposed to do? Stay and be humilated eben more? I mean how much more do I have to go through til this is over? Michael sent me the URL to this piece, or else I would have never seen it. My intentions when I said I was not going to stay, are this and this only.....I am no longer comfortable here anymore. I have been deeply hurt, and feel a bit like a scapegoat. I am humiliated by being derided in public. I hate conflict, with a passion. I think as the Feelings moderator I had a very low key spot, now I am at the center of attention. (Another thing I do not like) It was MY fault for posting my reply, but that's water under the bridge. As long as DE forgives me I have nothing to worry about. And Ron, about my 'silence', sometimes that is better than angry words. I have missed most of 2 nights sleep over this stupid thing. I am sad, and upset. I feel like only a few of my 'friends' here have come forward to say they care. Put yourself into my size 9's, Ron and try to imagine how I feel. Then try to imagine even posting here anymore????? It's a matter of personal pride for me I guess, I don't know really. But I will not beg for my spot back. And I do feel Ron, that if you had known me as well as I thought, you would have at least emailed me or ICQ'd me, before I was no longer a moderator. I have never before said one thing about anybody to you on this site. Odd I would do so now, and state I was leaving...You know how much I love{d} this place. Up until about 12 hours ago you have been on my "Visible" list, ICQ. You were online when I was many times yesterday. To talk real-time rather than email would have probably saved alot of grief.
I really am tired and a bit cranky this morning from two nights of nightmares. I should have known that would happen LOL I can't watch scary movies of any type.
Anyways to me, I'd prefer to move forward. To be done with this whole horrifying mess. Forget it happened, and write poetry. That's what I am doing. I'll miss you all. *hugs*
IsabelleSkye AKA }X{Angel}X{

P.S. Thank you Michael for sticking by me, and having the guts to speak up about it. I love you bunches.
Also thanks Ron for a great site Keep up the good work.
Member Elite
since 06-22-99
Posts 2442

3 posted 11-01-1999 09:31 AM       View Profile for DreamEvil   Email DreamEvil   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit DreamEvil's Home Page   View IP for DreamEvil

Not surprisingly, I too feel compelled to respond to this statement and to Ron.

Michael there is no possible way you could lose my friendship over honest opinion and interpretation. Further, I blame Izzy not in the least for her reply as such was the basis for my own decision to remeove the piece. I will not address Izzy anymore other than to say she has always been a dear friend and I too am trying to contact her, if only to give a more personal apology.

To Ron, Michael, and my Passions family I must reiterate that Ron made the best decision for the entire site, not just the forums. Passions will always have my utmost loyalty, as will my friends.

Now and forever, my heart hears ~one voice~.

Member Rara Avis
since 07-22-99
Posts 9561

4 posted 11-01-1999 10:22 AM       View Profile for WhtDove   Email WhtDove   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit WhtDove's Home Page   View IP for WhtDove

Well, I posted once and it didn't go through. I will try very hard and remember what it was I said.

Michael I know this was difficult for you to write. I know you have gone through a lot of turmoil these last couple of days. As has everyone involved. I'm sorry it all had to come to this. I'm sorry everyone was put in the postion they were put in. Izzy though I don't know you, I'm sorry you're so upset and hurt! I hope you reconsider and keep the friendship you have found here!

I think to try and sum up what I was saying is that this was hard on me too. I am friends with Dream also. And Michael and quite a few others. I didn't read the post in question in it's entirety but stopped after the first paragraph or two. I think that in respect to what Passions stands for and the rules provided for it, they should have been followed. I think had Dream posted that he should have done so on his own web page and sent email privately to those he wanted to view it. I think he should not have linked it to Passions.

This is a home Ron has provided for us, and I think he gives so much to us and asks for little in return. I don't think it too much to follow the rules.

I think Dream is doing a great job handling this situation. I'm happy to see it and proud of how he is. He is an exceptional poet, and a friend. I know this has been hard on everyone.

I think Ron has done what he thought best, and I'm sure it wasn't easy. He made a very difficult decision. I'm just sad that all concerned had to be put in this position.

I would truly hate to see this place go away because of such controversy. This place is one of a kind, truly like no other. And without the enforcing of rules, it wouldn't be what it is today.

Michael, I'm proud of you for thinking things out, I know this was not easy on you at all. Ron for making a very tough decision and being thorough. Scott for taking this like you have and dealing with it in such a manner.

I hope that when things calm down and everyone has some time to reflect back, that everyone can still remain friends. Izzy I really hope you do reconsider your decision.
The friends found here are unique just like Passions is.

I think it quite an unfortunate incident that has occured. I hope we can grow from this experience. I hope also that frienships
that were formed here will remain. My heart goes out to all of you!
Member Elite
since 07-25-99
Posts 2961

5 posted 11-01-1999 11:26 AM       View Profile for poetFemmeFatale   Email poetFemmeFatale   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for poetFemmeFatale

Michael - I know this was written with deepest sincereity....I am glad you shared with us, your thoughts. I don't believe anyone will argue....everything you said came from the heart, and I know this will mean alot to Dream & Izzy. Rest now, for I know you haven't slept...if any at all.

~~ Lift your head high - spread your "words" and fly - - poetFemmeFatale

Senior Member
since 08-15-99
Posts 1966
Sitting in Michael's Lap

6 posted 11-01-1999 07:32 PM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

Well, I had no earthly idea until I just read this that this had directly affected anyone but Scott -- and though I did not know Izzy personally, she has my sympathies.

Michael: You are absolutely right. I have gone back and edited a number of my posts (not yet all of them) regarding this subject, and I have corresponded with Ron personally -- the outcome of which was that I was both enlightened and embarrassed.

I, personally, was not offended by Dream's post -- I found it to be very horrific and gruesome, but I expected as much when I went to read it. As such, I took a stance regarding this particular incident, without much regard and indeed without information about previous incidents, whatever those may have been. In that, I was hasty and foolish, and as I have already offered my apologies to Ron, I will offer them here to anyone else who cares.

I do want to add that even if I might not have made the same decision in Ron's place (admittedly I have very little sense of political correctness -- I believe I have made that much obvious), I realize that this is HIS site, which HE is ultimately responsible for -- and if he sees anything here that he does not wish to be associated with (and by that I mean the post, not Scott), then he is well within his rights to take whatever measures he sees fit to rectify that situation. Ron -- I will echo many others: I am glad it wasn't me who had to make the decision.


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