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Passions in Poetry

Christopher's Complaint

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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


0 posted 10-30-1999 09:06 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Why is it that people feel the need to berate someone if they are offended?
This is spawned by a response to Dream Evil's Halloween Prose.
Due to it's particularly graphic nature and subject matter, he responsibly provided a link , (in the ADULT forum,) which led you to a disclaimer page.
On that disclaimer page, he gave you yet another opportunity to "back away." Then, and only then, if you chose, you could continue on to read his piece.
The way he approached it seems extrememly responsible to me. First, he provided the link in adult, which is restricted to those over eighteen.
Then he provided the warning of the graphic nature.
In my opinion, anyone who followed through, despite repeated warnings, is subject to whatever was written. They had to make a concious decision to read the piece.
If they didn't like it, then by all means they dont have to. It was a particularly disturbing piece, (and I'm not easily disturbed!) However, that doesn't mean there's any call for:

quote:
I have one thing to say, as long as YOU and YOUR perverted 'poetry' are here. I am not.
This was the sickest most disgusting piece of trash I have ever read.



First off, it wasn't "poetry" per se, nor was ever touted as such. Next, this person made the concious decision to follow the paths to read the piece, thereby absolving Dream Evil of any responsibility. That they didn't like it was no reason to be spiteful and degredating.
Of course this is all my own personal opinion, and I believe this person has the right to say whatever they choose. I am not "getting on" their excercise of their freedom of speech, but rather on the immaturity that is apparent with someone who wants to escape respoonsibility for their own actions.
If you're told that you will get burned when you put your hand in the fire, yet you do it anyway... you can hardly get upset at the fire now can you?
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


1 posted 10-30-1999 10:03 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Chrisopher,
Well, I didn't read the piece (Dreamevil, e-mail me the link if you read this) and I do believe the ultimate authority of this site lies with Ron and no one else (it solves whatever principles we might differ on);yet, if the Adult forum is not for controversial forms of poetry, then what is it for? Who are we protecting now?

I'm not debating whatever choices were made but I'm not sure I understand the Adult Forum goals anymore.

Help,
Brad
Systematic Decay
Senior Member
since 09-15-99
Posts 1312
That place with padded walls a


2 posted 10-30-1999 10:09 PM       View Profile for Systematic Decay   Email Systematic Decay   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Systematic Decay

Chris, I agree entirely with you, But I am wondering, why Ron took away his modorator position for it? I understand that, being Ron's site, he has the right to do what he wants, but I consider it a second home....and now I am feeling like perhaps I can't express my opinions freely for fear of being in some sort of trouble. There was a poet in Teen2 who wrote a poem entitled, who the f*k are you, without the asterisk. She got no reprimand, because the "moderator" is never in there. But Dream is a damn good moderator if you ask me....ugh. IM starting my own post I'll continue this there.

------------------
"Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage."
-Billy Corgan-
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


3 posted 10-30-1999 10:14 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Agreed with you Brad. I am not debating any choices made, as I believe that there are many times where there needs to be a final word. And in this case, I don't argue any decisions made. My arguement is with the people who attack others.
Honestly, if someone doesn't like my work, I would rather them not reply. I value criticism and praise, but it does NO ONE any good if there is an attack. If a person disagrees with something, or just doesn't like it, I would rather see them ignore it and move on.
Just my op.
IsabelleSkye
Member
since 06-27-99
Posts 262


4 posted 10-30-1999 10:16 PM       View Profile for IsabelleSkye   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for IsabelleSkye

Imagine this.....a perverted psycho uses DE's post for his next "idea". How then will you feel about condoning something so awful and sick as that piece of trash POSTED in the adult site? BTW Chris please give quotes the due they deserve. Yeah I made that quote. Me...IsabelleSkye...Moderator....poet who has been here since this site's infancy..and I care about the content that is posted here. I'm saddened that something like this gets an ok from anyone. As a mother I am just sickened, and deeply disturbed. I'm sorry if I offended, but I too am entitled to my opinion. As are you Christopher. Luckily mine wasn't nearly as nightmare provoking as DE's......

(FYI note I was ASKED to read that post by another moderator who was very disturbed about it. And they needed to know how others felt about it too)

[This message has been edited by IsabelleSkye (edited 10-30-1999).]
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


5 posted 10-30-1999 10:27 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

IsabelleSkye- I wasn't taking away from you tthe responsibility of the qoute. I just didn't want to turn it into a personal attack. Personally, I disagree with you.
As far as someone using it as an "idea," that could be done from many movies you see on normal everyday television, or countless books ANYONE can buy in a bookstore.
I am sorry if I seem hateful about this. I am deeply bothered by the whole mess. I abhor strife, when we should all try to look at things from other's points of views. I see it from yours that this piece was deeply disurbing for you, and I honestly empathize. I regret that you were disturbed.
But on the flip side, you were provided a choice. And you are an adult, capable of making those choices.
You DO have the right to your opinion, and I am interested in hearing it. My concern here isn't with how you felt about the piece, but rather that you chose to attack.
I don't believe that is productive mature or healthy in any way. (Not that I haven't been subject to it from time to time.) What's wrong with approaching Scott, and telling him, "Hey, I think this piece is very disturbing, and I think it should be removed?"
Sorry this whole mess got started, already the repercussions are far-felt.
doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028
Virginia


6 posted 10-30-1999 11:08 PM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

I, too, was directed to what DE wrote by someone who was very disturbed by the content. When I read the post, I thought it inappropriate for these forums, and I posted my comment on the thread in question. People react to different things in different ways. As writers, we have a responsibility with our words. Just because we can find books and movies that glorify violence, rape & child molestation, does not mean we condone those actions. Neither does it mean that we, too, should follow suit by writing words which glorify this type of behavior. Even though there was a warning posted by the author that there would be controversial content when clicking on the link, it did not prepare the reader for glorification of such above acts. In my opinion, the writing was inappropriate for this venue and I spoke my opinion after reading what was written. I am proud to be a member of Passions because it is a site where many talented people come to express themselves and especially because it is a site which has high standards.

I do not think the original intention of the Adult Forum was to glorify raping, maming and murdering children. As for my original comments regarding the post, I was not judging anybody else personally. But I was concerned with the way the post represented this website.
Skyfyre
Senior Member
since 08-15-99
Posts 1966
Sitting in Michael's Lap


7 posted 10-30-1999 11:18 PM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

This is most distressing -- though I discovered this site only recently, I have found it to be a place where people can freely share their opinions and ideas, no matter how controversial those ideas might be. This incident, however, causes me to doubt my original appraisal.

I realize and appreciate that there are those patrons of this site whose constitutions and/or preferences do not extend to include some subject matter -- case in point being the prose which sparked this unfortunate turn of events. It is my contention that DreamEvil was quite discreet in the manner in which he presented what he knew would be a controversial piece: he posted a link in Adult, which as previously noted is an over-eighteen restricted area, then inserted an additional "WARNING: GRAPHIC MATERIAL" intermediate between the link and the actual piece. Those of you who have been here for any period of time, and those like myself, who have been reading in the archives, should be well aware by now of the kind of writing DreamEvil is capable of (see his much-disputed "BDSM" post in Adult), and should therefore have taken heed of his warnings and gone no further, if you were not prepared to be subjected to "graphic material".

What I read at the link was, as I said in my reply, gruesome; however, it was a piece of HORROR FICTION and as such, that is exactly what I expected. And, despite what others may think, it was very well-written, and no worse than any of a hundred horror novels available in the NON ADULT section of your neighborhood bookstore. If similar (and in fact, some far worse) material is available to ANYONE (yes, children included), I hardly think it grounds for the revocation of DreamEvil's moderator position which, in my opinion and that of many others, he has done quite well.

I humbly ask, Ron, that you reconsider this action. If this site is not capable of handling DreamEvil's darker pieces, so be it. But do not allow that fact to rob the prose forum of its greatest advocate and, I would argue, one of its best contributors.

--Kess

------------------
You cannot choose the way of your death, but the path you choose will determine its own end.

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


8 posted 10-31-1999 01:23 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I have to admit that my first reaction was to simply ignore this and hope it quickly went away. Those of you who've known me a while know that I rarely try to justify myself. I have always believed actions speak more effectively than words (strange as that may seem for a writer), and would rather be judged for what I do than what I say. But I've also tried to be open and honest with everyone here, about myself and my life, about my feelings for Passions, about the way I see things. I guess that honesty is meaningless, though, if I can't also do it when it's painful to do it.

Before we talk about Scott, let's address Brad's concerns and confusion and, in doing so, inevitably touch upon the piece that has struck such controversy. The Adult forum has never been a license for posting simply anything, without regard to content. The first few weeks it was open we deleted a poem about rape and I've never felt we made the wrong decision.

But, wait a minute! Rape has been discussed and explored in Open Poetry, a much less restricted forum. Why would one on a similar subject be deleted from Adult? Because the work didn't explore rape, it glorified it. It rewarded a hideous crime and demeaned the victims, as well as every person (man or woman) who read it. I have a tough time justifying myself when I try to judge the validity (or lack) of another person's viewpoint. Time and again, you've heard me say that Passions is based on tolerance and respect. But there is inevitably a time to draw a line in the sand and say, "This far and no farther." Exploring dark themes is one thing. Glorifying the darkness, sanctifying the darkness without regard to the consequences of darkness - that is another thing entirely. I think if you look at most books in the horror genre, from Stroud to King, you will realize that the exploration of horror usually includes an ending where horror pays the price for being horrible. Consequences matter. Without consequences, it isn't exploration. It's glorification.

The fact the piece was posted, via link, in a protected forum, with numerous and obvious disclaimers, does absolutely nothing to change the nature of the piece. The courts have decreed that if you electrify your front door, post big signs saying it's electrified, and someone nonetheless grabs hold of that sparkling doorknob - you are culpable for murder. While I don't want to compare a work of fiction to murder, the similarity remains: you cannot "warn away" the responsibility for your own actions.

I think Scott made a bad judgment call in posting the piece. Much as many of us have done from time to time, I suspect. Now, there are only two other people in this whole forum that are going to completely understand this, but there was a time six or seven months ago when one of the most esteemed and respected poets at Passions made a similar judgment call. They posted a poem, in a different forum but one also affiliated with Passions, under a different user name than they use here, that elicited an immediate outrage from many readers. I am not comparing that work with this one (for they are surely not the same), but I am comparing the situation. That unnamed poet, who always show good taste and judgement (and immense talent), immediately withdrew the misunderstood poem, realizing he had made a mistake in judging the audience. We all make mistakes.

Unfortunately, this is not the first time this or similar mistakes have been made. The last such incident, occurring the first week in September, prompted me to write Scott a fairly long letter detailing my concerns. I'm going to share just a small portion of that letter, because I think it - more than anything else I can say - explains the decision I had to make tonight.

quote:
Scott, you've made some tremendous contributions to the community, not the least of which is your talent and insight with the written word. You're certainly as much a member of the family as anyone else at Passions. But you're also more than a family member, now, you're a Moderator. Whether it's your intention or not, you speak with the voice of Passions when you speak, and your words and actions reflect on me and your fellow Moderators. Passions has become a family, and families have disagreements. But the leaders of that family, the Moderators, are a team, a unity, the nucleus around which all else revolves.


I did not ask Scott to resign tonight in some misguided attempt to "punish" him for making a mistake. My request was not a response to outrage by others, nor was it a shot out of the proverbial blue. I asked him to resign because, repeatedly, his views, actions, and judgements are in direct conflict with what I perceive to be those of Passions. It came only after attempting to reconcile that conflict. And I'm more sorry than any of you will ever realize that it had to be done.

Now, having explained my viewpoint, I want to add that I have no intention of saying much beyond what's already been said. I won't discuss the merits of the story, nor do I want to linger over what's been a very difficult decision. But as long as we're being so open and honest today, there is something else, something not unrelated, that I'd like to touch upon.

Scott has made some mistakes in the past several months. Some of those, I think, were fairly serious lapses in judgment. But as I've tried to indicate, we all make mistakes. We're human. I may have found fault with Scott's judgement on occasion, but I have never found fault with his heart. He cares about this art and craft we all pursue, even when his words don't always reflect that. He cares about Passions, even when his views don't always coincide with those of Passions. And he care about people, too, I think, even when his own anger and bitterness cause him to react as if it were otherwise. I try to never give advice unless someone asks for it, but as his friend, I hope I can say that I hope Scott one day realizes his bitterness is not his friend.

But that's not the something I wanted to talk about. As Scott has made mistakes, he has also made enemies. And that's the something I want to talk about.

One of the things a writer has to learn is that there are no villains in this world, and we make a serious mistake if we allow them to creep into our prose and poetry. There are no villains, only antagonists - because no matter what a person says or does, they always feel they are justified. Do you really think that even Hitler, that most infamous of horrors, got out of bed in the morning, looked in the mirror and said, "Gee, there's the face of a true villain?" Hitler, like every other person in this world that hates, truly believed his hatred was justified.

Over the course of several months I have seen repeated attacks on Scott's posts not simply because of content, but simply because they were Scott's posts. You can tell the difference, and so can I, especially when those attacks always seem to stem from the same sources. Similar posts, from other people, have gone unmolested. I've received email, time and again, from people along similar themes. Scott has not just attracted enemies, but enemies with vehemence.

Don't misunderstand me: I'm not suggesting people shouldn't make judgements about what they deem acceptable or not acceptable. I'm not suggesting people should remain silent having made those judgements. On the contrary, I firmly believe it is every person's responsibility to denounce what they perceive as contrary to their own set of values. Silence is just another tool of apathy.

But that hasn't always been what I've seen. Attacks based on values are consistent, not targeted. I have seen only a handful of responsible people speaking out against something they believe. Instead, I've seen far too many enemies, whose attacks have largely been clouded by anger and hate. Ah, but do I hear them muttering? "The hate and the fear and the disgust have all been justified." And the words I hear being muttered aren't even spoken in German.

As long as we find reasons to hate, there will be hate. Scott's enemies, those who have attacked him in public and in private, don't get up in the morning, look in the mirror, and see the face of a villain. But their hatred, justified though they may feel it is, is just one drop of the ocean that is drowning mankind's world. We are hating ourselves into oblivion, one drop at a time, one justified reason at a time. Hate a man's actions, not the man. Try to stop those actions, not destroy the man. Act out of conviction, not out of hate. If Passions is truly to be a place of tolerance and respect, there can never be room for hatred.

In parting, I'd like to commend Scott on his commitment and devotion to Passions, and on the not always easy task of building the Prose forum into what it is today. We own him our thanks for the tireless hours he has given us. Though not a Moderator, Scott will continue to be Member in good standing and will continue to post. And I hope his enemies will get up in the morning, look in the mirror, and perhaps see a slightly difference face staring back at them.
desperado
Member
since 05-24-99
Posts 361
FT Hood,Tx


9 posted 10-31-1999 01:01 AM       View Profile for desperado   Email desperado   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for desperado

I would have to agree with ron there. especially at the end. I've known people who have been attacked for nothing more than the name they choose (which incidentally, I also believe that this might just be another case). too many people read a name and decide that that name is the most avid description of that person, instead of thinking that it might be some thing they like, the name of their dog, or a favorite book (what if I called myself karmasutra? would you then think I was a wild nympho?) alas, it is a NAME that will ultimately make or break you in this world we choose to write in. aliances are made and forged to steel as quickly as enimies through simple names that we choose to personify into creatures of good and evil.

I don't know what Dream Evil posted, though my curiosity would like to know (so email me), if he's reading, but what ever it is, it shouldn't be touted like a banner for a personal attack. if anything, it needs to be critiqued (after all, aren't there any writers in this house?). That's the word I was looking for. House. this is a house. not just for words, but for ideas. and as a house we must try to work in a positive direction and not a negative one. just as a new member looks up to the older ones, so must the older ones look up to the moderators. the moderators must remember that they are responsible for making sure that those who are members (both old and new), all try to work in a positive direction, I even feel that a moderator must also MODERATE disagreements and help give advice to those who seek help or have a concern about a post, or even just a nice conversation. if we dwell here among these ideals and isolate ourselves from those around us then we in effect block away our inspirations and aspirations.

last of all, I feel that this is a place of dreams. a place of wisdom and friendliness. next time your read something, read it with an open mind and only then if it bothers you should you raise your voice, but never as an attack, just as a statement of opinion. heaven forbid I say personal beliefs, because aren't those as good a basis as any for all wars? so please, place your beliefs aside and think of those here as not evil people (though some may wish to claim that, even me.), but people who just want to be different. yet we are all the same through words. and I do believe I've posted enough for one night.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


10 posted 10-31-1999 01:09 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Christopher, hopefully you know I hold you in the highest regard but I must disagree with your conclusions.

First, posting the writing in question in the Adult Section, for those 18 years and older, I think you said is not valid. Systematic Decay, I believe, is 15 (one would wonder how she has access to the forum in the first place) and there are other underage visitors as well.

Second, displaying a 'graphic' warning only entices people's curiosity. Advertisers have known that for years. Had DreamEvil said "Warning! Torture, mutilation, and cannibalism of underage children graphically depicted" then the warning would have been valid but, of course, he wasn't about to do that.

Third, leaving a trail of breadcrumbs to an alternate area holds no weight. The link was in Passions and the replies would be listed in Passions.

After all the hoopla is over, what it basically boils down to is this:
When we join Passions, we read a list of rules and we agree to abide by them. Not glorifying rape and torture is one of them. Scott either forgot those rules or decided to ignore them. It's not our site. We are all guests. We don't own it, we didn't build it and we don't pay for it. We are simply expected to follow basic rules of common decency to be here. I, for one, do not think that is too much to ask.


[This message has been edited by Balladeer (edited 10-31-1999).]
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


11 posted 10-31-1999 02:30 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

OK, I have read all the replies.
I agree with some, disagree with others, and am undecided about some.

Doreen- Once again, I am not making a judgement on Scott or Isabelle, or any other person who responded. I am voicing my opinion. Period. My problem isn't with you not liking the story, or the manner it was posted, etc. My problem is with the manner in which it was approached. I honestly believe that personally attacking someone because of a difference in viewpoints is immature and pointless. It does nothing but upset both sides. I am not in any way saying it's not your right to voice your opinion, and I want to make that clear.

Kess- Remember that we are all human, and as such, are subject to our own frailties. Perhaps the decisions et al are not for the best, but it isn't for us to decide. As Balladeer said, we don't own it or pay for it.

Ron- Once again I want to thank you for a thourough job. And again, I am saying that I am not questioning your decision. Personally, I would like to see Scott remain. However, I am certainly not going to cause you any more grief than you've already suffered over an obviously difficult decision. I don't gainsay your decision, because I am sure as with everything else, you have given it your utmost.
I would also like to thank you for your villification of Scott. I too have watched as he was bombarded, seemingly just because he is who he is. I have often tried to reply in an adult manner, and occasionaly found it difficult to do so. In my opinion, people who feel the need to act this way are taking themselves down to the same level they are condemning.
But as you say, I am sure they do not see themselves this way. I am doing my utmost to see past the end of my nose, but am having a difficult time doing so.
Any controversy requires two sides. And I am just bothered to see that it is taken so personally. I recognize your statement and agree with it to a point, regarding glorification. It is not necessarily a good thing to "glorify" something that is "evil." However, it is our responsibility as readers as well, to make our own decisions.
The author is responsible, but no less so the reader. I take responsibility for my own actions. And I am constantly saddened to see this day and age as being a "blame someone else," peroid of time. This situation here reflects in a large part on the way society functions in general. Of course I am not talking about everyone.
However, I also understand where you are coming from as well. So, in the interest of peace, I will certainlny not post something that will spark such controversy, (unless of course it is accidental.)

Desperado- I agree with everything you say, save setting aside your personal beliefs.
Even though I disagree with them, I think that those who expressed their beliefs have every right to do so, just as we have the right to disagree with them. Our beliefs are part of what makes us who we are. We can see it on our poetry, prose and responses. It is intrinsic to every person, and I would hate to see that set aside. (As a quick note: I am not saying that everything we write about or post is something we believe in. I know personally I have written about things that I absolutely ABHOR. I know Scott well and can say with assurance, that what he wrote about in that prose piece does NOT reflect his viewpoints or beliefs at all.)


Balladeer- I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. If we all agreed on everything, it would truly be a boring world.
As to your first, I can not answer that with any knowledge. It was my understanding that the adult forum is restricted to adults. Knowing now that there are underaged people in there will certainly stop what few post I have been doing. I am not making criticisms here, because I know if someone wants to do something bad enough, then they can usually find a way around the restrictions. But now that I know children are reading, I will certainly not be posting anything in there that I wouldn't post in Open forum.
To your second point: Of course it's an enticement, but it still doesn't take away the responsibility of the reader. You are responsible still for following it. It is a concious choice. This I think, is a case of placing blame. Perhaps he should have written what you said. But then what? He would have been burned for posting that. A lose-lose situation. Some people do seem to attack him just out of spite, or because they don't agree with his philosophies or lifestyles. To me, that borders predjudice. I believe he would have been attacked either way, while the blame still rests on both heads, not only one.
To your third point: Yes, you are right. And perhaps this was more an error in judgement rather than an attempt to upset people. Humans being as they are... Myself, when I read the piece, I had not realized that it would bother people so much. I felt that having provided the warnings was sufficient to keep anyone who would be offended out. Little did I realize that was not going to be the case. I understand your point about it being attached to passion's pages, and have no arguement with the fact of it.
And I don't think it's too much to ask either. However, I will point out that opinions vary. I myself didn't see the piece as glorifying. I felt rather, that we were meant to be disgusted by it. (my op)
As for myself, I will be careful. I don't think I have ever stepped over Passion's lines and have no wish to do so, with the cost being such as this is.
(which means you're stuck with my mushy crap!)
RainbowGirl
Member Elite
since 07-31-99
Posts 3167
United Kingdom


12 posted 10-31-1999 04:55 AM       View Profile for RainbowGirl   Email RainbowGirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit RainbowGirl's Home Page   View IP for RainbowGirl

ok, my 2pence worth..

I can't comment on the post because I didn't read it - why not? Because Dream actually asked me if horror disturbed me and not knowing more than that I replied I'd read in the morning (too close to my bedtime), but then he added it was brutal and intense so I said I wouldn't be reading it then and he said that's why he had warned me....and the conversation ended on hugs from both sides (yes, he gave me a hug .. )

Now the way I see it is that he didn't have to say that to me and I'm thankful he did because even though we may receive warnings our perception of the content is based on our own ideas of what is unacceptable to us personally...I know from some of Dream's previous work that when he says it is gruesome, brutal or whatever words he chooses, it is!!

So, he may not have been responsible in providing the link but I do feel it is the choice of individuals to either read or not...I adore books but I never buy horror!

Having said all that, I for one am glad I didn't read it and thankful he warned me because I think I would have had sleepless nights for a long while to come based on these comments...

I do admit though that I have a severe reaction which can be frightening to some posts, so I'm probably not really the best person to even enter this subject arena...

Tough call Ron but you have to be happy with how you sleep at night..

Tough call for you as well Dream but I think you knew it would cause controversy but I admire the way you're handling your resignation...

HUGS to all

------------------
You give but little when you give of your possessions. It is when you give of yourself that you truly give.



[This message has been edited by RainbowGirl (edited 10-31-1999).]
Systematic Decay
Senior Member
since 09-15-99
Posts 1312
That place with padded walls a


13 posted 10-31-1999 08:47 AM       View Profile for Systematic Decay   Email Systematic Decay   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Systematic Decay

I just wanted to clear up the fact that I didn't have access to the adult forum. I never have. I don't know about any other underage members. I had a link to the piece, and I think it is just a matter of personal tatse. I liked the story, others (for obvious reasons) didn't. I didn't see it as glorification. I saw it as being aimed to do what his original challenge was-to scare us. I thought it was to scare us by making us think these people (demons) still exist and are not being hurt by the law or any other force.

My response to his challenge was posted in dark, and was also quite graphic, although it wasn't violence on any child, but an animal. And I got no attacks over it, and no moderator was angry that I posted it. So in that, I do agree with Ron, because if DE had posted it, I bet anything he would have had his ass chewed off.

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"Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage."
-Billy Corgan-
hoot_owl_rn
Member Patricius
since 07-05-99
Posts 11105
Glen Hope, PA USA


14 posted 10-31-1999 09:55 AM       View Profile for hoot_owl_rn   Email hoot_owl_rn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit hoot_owl_rn's Home Page   View IP for hoot_owl_rn

Okay, I can't go without putting my two cents in here. I did read the post. Yes, there were warnings posted about the graphic nature of the piece, but the warnings did nothing to prepare the reader for the actual piece of prose they were about to read. I have to say it was extreamly well written and full of intense imagery, but I found the overall subject matter of it to be cruel and sadistic in it's nature. I was not prepared for the intensity of this one even with the warnings. The sheer graphicness of it was unbelieveable. I think Scott should have been a bit more explicit with his warnings on the piece so people could be prepared for what they were about to see.
In turn I'd like to say I'm sorry to see Scott resign as moderator for Prose as he has done a good job there.
doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028
Virginia


15 posted 10-31-1999 11:05 AM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

I just have one more thing to say.

I don't know what this "hate campaign" thing is all about. I have several times been directed to what was referred to as a post in "questionable taste" and asked my opinion. People know I am opinionated, I guess, and will speak my mind. I am hoping nobody here thinks my comments to ANYTHING DreamEvil has written are personally attacking. That has never been my intention. I very rarely read what DE writes because I am aware that I am not a fan of certain dark themes and certain writing styles which may be disturbing.

In this particular instance, I was asked to read the link by someone who was disturbed by its content ..... and since I felt it inappropriately glorified the acts depicted, I felt it had no place at Passions and so I spoke up. I certainly did NOT personally attack DE, but instead to point out the rules of the forums and state my opinion that the link was inappropriate in content. I was NOT requesting removal of DE's position.

Christopher, in your paragraph directed toward me, you said, "My problem is with the manner in which it was approached. I honestly believe that personally attacking someone because of a difference in viewpoints is immature and pointless. It does nothing but upset both sides. I am not in any way saying it's not your right to voice your opinion, and I want to make that clear."

If you are trying to say that you think I have personally attacked DreamEvil, I have a problem with that. I did no such thing. I would never personally attack anyone. If there has been some kind of "hate campaign" directed toward DreamEvil, that is very sad indeed. I have not witnessed such a campaign but I very rarely read DE's posts. If this is indeed true, whoever has been party to this should be ashamed of themselves.

-dp
Elizabeth
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 06-07-99
Posts 7296
America the beautiful


16 posted 10-31-1999 11:40 AM       View Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Elizabeth's Home Page   View IP for Elizabeth

I have been offended by pieces nowhere near as graphic as DreamEvil's. I have not read the piece which is so hotly being disputed, but I will say this: It's MY OWN CHOICE to read a poem or a bit of prose. No one has forced me to read it. DreamEvil didn't force us to read his piece, people decided to read it. If they were offended, they could have stopped anytime.

Yes, warnings do increase curiosity. However, if there had been no warning, Dream would have been slammed for not posting one. Considering there was a link provided, maybe the link to the Adult forum should not have been there, so no one who did not want access to the forum could not have gotten to the piece.

And about the Adult forum: what is the point of having a password to "protect" the young and innocent when they can simply go to the main site and enter "Poems of Erotica"? There's no password for that section, yet some of the poems are the same as in the adult forum. I understand that someone who has just discovered this site might very easily be offended by some of the postings there, and in that sense the password is a good idea. But if someone and gains access, it's because they want it, and they most likely are not that "innocent" in the first place.

I would also like to say that DreamEvil has done a wonderful job moderating the prose forum. I hope to see him back in that position soon. The first time I posted there in one of my other names, he welcomed me to prose, said it was nice to have me there, and made me feel good. Not one of the other moderators has bothered to say that to me in any name. Besides, at least Dream was doing his job of moderating, unlike some other so-called "moderators" who are NEVER there.

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*Elizabeth*

"Dwelt a maid belov'd and cherish'd by high and low,
But with autumn leaf she perish'd, long time ago..."

"Something sweet, something sort of grandish, sweeps my soul when thou art near..."



[This message has been edited by Elizabeth (edited 10-31-1999).]
Kelly
Member
since 07-03-99
Posts 153


17 posted 10-31-1999 01:04 PM       View Profile for Kelly   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kelly

Ron,
I completely agree you and respect your decision. I didn't read DE's piece and I don't plan to. I appreciate all your attempts at keeping this site decent and tasteful.



[This message has been edited by Kelly (edited 10-31-1999).]
Systematic Decay
Senior Member
since 09-15-99
Posts 1312
That place with padded walls a


18 posted 10-31-1999 01:35 PM       View Profile for Systematic Decay   Email Systematic Decay   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Systematic Decay

Elizabeth, I will say that some of the other moderators have welcomed me, and made me feel at home, some haven't, but Scott consistently welcomes (oops welcomed) every new member to Prose as the moderator. And I can point out at least one moderator that has only posted 9 times!!!!! To see moderators that attack, and moderators that have disapeared, remain in that position, while Scott has been removed from it, is indeed a depressing thing.

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"Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage."
-Billy Corgan-
RainbowGirl
Member Elite
since 07-31-99
Posts 3167
United Kingdom


19 posted 10-31-1999 02:08 PM       View Profile for RainbowGirl   Email RainbowGirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit RainbowGirl's Home Page   View IP for RainbowGirl

Would someone be kind enough to confirm what this subject was about...I was under the impression it was about Halloween but I now think it was about the torture of a very young girl and if that's the case ...



I'm quite sure I don't need to make my feelings clear on that particular subject!

Ron? Dream? Anyone?

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You give but little when you give of your possessions. It is when you give of yourself that you truly give.



[This message has been edited by RainbowGirl (edited 10-31-1999).]
Marilyn
Member Elite
since 09-26-1999
Posts 2646
Ontario, Canada


20 posted 10-31-1999 02:46 PM       View Profile for Marilyn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Marilyn

Rainbow girl...from what I understand (I did not read the piece in question) it was about the rape, muder and mauling of a 10 year old girl. Just from what I have gathered here I am glad I didn't read it.

I would like to say that I hold Scott in the highest esteem. I think that he is extremely bright and very gifted. I have read as much of his work as I have time for ( but am glad I missed this one). I would have opened the link and began to read if the link were avialable to me. Simply because it was Scott that posted the work.

I know that this man has a very dark side but I do not judge him. I have read the other side of him as well. He has the ablitiy to transform his reader to where he wants to send them. I am in awe of his talent.

Ron...I would like to thankyou for explaining yourself. It wasn't necessary but appreciated. You made a difficult decision and I am glad to see the rules inforced here. I am not glad to see Scott stripped of his position but under the same circumstances.... *shurg*.... I am glad it wasn't my decision.

I am happy to realize that this was the final straw and not an abrupt decision. This makes me feel very comfortable giving my opinion and posting in this forum.
Systematic Decay
Senior Member
since 09-15-99
Posts 1312
That place with padded walls a


21 posted 10-31-1999 03:00 PM       View Profile for Systematic Decay   Email Systematic Decay   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Systematic Decay

Rainbow- the story was about a sort of demon in human form (I may have misinterpreted that point) who is quite malevolent and seems a bit unstable in the mind. He thinks himself an artist, and, how can I say, makes artwork out of young girls. He does absolutely sickening, torturous things to them, and their minds become warped so that he is their saviour.

As I have stated before: I didn't see it as glorification. I saw it as being aimed to do what his original challenge was-to scare us. I thought it was to scare us by making us think these people (demons) still exist and are not being hurt by the law or any other force.

Perhaps I am underestimating the power (And offensive properties) of this piece, being rather desensitized to violence as I am. Maybe a lot of us are, and just have to remeber, before saying or posting something of that nature, that many people are more sensitive, and sometimes squeamish to that sort of thing.

I happen to know that Scott abhors the mistreatment of children, which only proves to further my point that his piece was not glorification. It was aimed to scare us, and I think, also, to denounce child mistreatment, abuse, rape, and what-have-you.

I am wondering (though Ron probably won't answer) what Scott's past "offenses" have been?

And one last thing, to those who ignored the warnings and read anyway: CURIOSITY KILLED THE CAT.



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Thinking is just what a great many people think they are doing when they are merely rearranging their predjudices.


poetFemmeFatale
Member Elite
since 07-25-99
Posts 2961
Arkansas


22 posted 10-31-1999 03:16 PM       View Profile for poetFemmeFatale   Email poetFemmeFatale   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for poetFemmeFatale

I understand I'm jumping on this bandwagon a wee bit late, however, now that's it's taken me at least 25 minutes to read all this....I must save myself some time by simply saying I agree wholeheartedly with what Balladeer has stated. I completely disagree with giving underage "friends" a link into a protected site...There is way too much in there that shouldn't be accessible to younger folks. I take pride in what I post in there with good faith that it's only for mature eyes....I believe Sharon does a damn good job at keeping youngsters at bay....As someone said, if they want to get in there bad enough, sadly, they probably will figure out a way too! I myself pulled off many stunts like that as a pre-teen! However, I believe that every effort is being made to prevent this. It's certainly not fool-proof, nothing is! About the only way we could protect a posting of such nature (as Dream's here) would be to have a forum titled..."Morbidly Offensive Forum"...and talk about trying to find a Key big enough to lock out underage readers ! 'Twould be impossible.... There are just as many "morbidly curious" as there are "sexually curious".......(sigh) No links to either should be permitted to younger readers, friends or not. Period.

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~~ Lift your head high - spread your "words" and fly - - poetFemmeFatale



[This message has been edited by poetFemmeFatale (edited 10-31-1999).]
Systematic Decay
Senior Member
since 09-15-99
Posts 1312
That place with padded walls a


23 posted 10-31-1999 09:34 PM       View Profile for Systematic Decay   Email Systematic Decay   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Systematic Decay

pFF, I think before you judge that, you should realize that the young are not always naive- In my school I am estimating that less than 30% are actually virgins, and teen pregnancy has skyrocketed. People do drugs and maim schoolmates with no second thought. I am not condoning this, only sayiong that reading something of this nature is not nearly as shocking or soiling to younger readers as it may seem.

In addition, I must say that I have written poetry and prose at least as graphic, if not more, than the piece in question. I have not attempted to gain access to the Adult forum, but that is simply in respect for the forum rules. I certainly am not innocent, or naive, and it would simply take something very profound to shock me. Scott's piece, while very powerful, moving, and in a sense, scary, did not shock me, because #1:I have been exposed to such things for a long time- many rated R movies (which any age group may gain access to, if accompanied my an adult) depict things of that nature. #2, I am quite aware of what Scott is capable fo writing. #3, as was just stated, I have written peices just as graphic. #4, I was warned that the piece contained graphic material.

It is a matter of opinion what is and isn't wrong. If you think that him sending me the link was wrong, that is your opinion. but I couldn't very well have an opinion on the piece having not read it, could I?

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Thinking is just what a great many people think they are doing when they are merely rearranging their predjudices.


poetFemmeFatale
Member Elite
since 07-25-99
Posts 2961
Arkansas


24 posted 10-31-1999 11:23 PM       View Profile for poetFemmeFatale   Email poetFemmeFatale   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for poetFemmeFatale

I'll try to keep this brief - I see I have offended you SD, simply because I referred to you as a "youngster" of 15, which you are, and so you choose to hit on everything I had to say in reply to this "complaint." I understand that teenagers want to be seen and accepted as adults, although they are not. I was 15 many - well, not TOO many years ago...I know how frustrating it is. Especially when they feel they've experienced far more than most adults - - I never said you were naive. Unfortunately, most kids your age are "soiled" - but does that justify soiling them more? Another example of this - Once virginity is lost, does that justify sleeping with the whole town? I know how evil some kids are today...We hear it every day on the news, we experience it everyday in our own towns...that doesn't make it ok to keep exposing those already "soiled" to more of that which has already corrupted their childhood. Unfortunately, it's the parents' fault for not caring enough about their children to raise them with morals and standards....most children raise themselves nowadays, or are raised commercially because we have no choice but for both parents to work for financial reasons. Thus, our children are lured into every kind of evil imaginable, because no one is looking out for them. Tis sad you see yourself as "experienced" simply because you've been "stripped" of your childhood innocence. However, that is nothing to "brag" about, which is how I read your detailed comments....as bragging. Maybe I read wrong...I apologize if I did.

If you are implying I shouldn't have an opinion, by that last line in which I sensed some sarcasm, I have been completely and thoroughly informed of the content and nature of this poem. One doesn't have to read something such as this, to see what is going on. However "poetically refined" it may have been, it is certainly not something that should be shared with "younger readers"....it's hardly something considered even suitable for adults over 18 - surely you can see the "riot" it has caused...Obviously you and Dream have a "similar interest" friendship in which he felt you might enjoy it....sadly, I know other "youngsters" would "eat it up" too. I refuse to continue to "feed" our already polluted "youth" with material such as this....however "experienced" they may be....My heart goes out to you for all you've experienced. No one should have to be "familiar" with such as that, and especially at the age of 15.

BTW - My comments about Dream's poem in no way reflect my feelings or opinions of him as a person. I am very fond of some of his poetry - I likewise offend him from time to time with my sexuality, and openness thereof in Adult. However, we are mature enough to know we still respect eachother as people and poets. I don't want you to see it as a slam on him personally.

Thank you for taking the time to read this from an "old fart" - all of 27 years old !!

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~~ Lift your head high - spread your "words" and fly - - poetFemmeFatale

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