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Passions in Poetry

Battlestar Galactica-- the end

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Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


0 posted 03-22-2009 07:20 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad


And this the end for me. By that, I don't mean I won't post here anymore. I simply cannot fathom a reason to be moderator anymore. Ron or M., or anybody else, consistently has missed the point. This is my fault, not theirs.

I do not understand what they say and what they do. I am stuck. I am done.

I nominate Stephen to be the new moderator of philosophy. Yes, we disagree. But that has never been an issue here. Philosophy is about allowing people to say what they want, not delete them because you feel it doesn't follow principles.
Brad
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since 08-20-99
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1 posted 03-22-2009 07:23 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Like Boomer, Ron, I will always owe you one. You need something, I will try.

My rule of thumb is always: If I can, I will.
Grinch
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since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


2 posted 03-22-2009 08:26 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

I think Yeats described CA quite well.

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

William Butler Yeats

Brad
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since 08-20-99
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Jejudo, South Korea


3 posted 03-22-2009 08:30 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Grinch,

Do we not, both of us, have that poem memorized?
Grinch
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since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


4 posted 03-22-2009 09:25 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Ron too probably.

I think this is the killer line for both him and me:

The ceremony of innocence is drowned;

The way I see it CA failed because of the potential for an unwanted drowning, the consensus seems to be that putting up a few “danger deep water” signs was the way to go. My own view is that the way to avoid the potential for a drowning wasn’t to dissuade the bathers with stricter rules, all it was lacking was another lifeguard, one with a different stroke aimed more at handing out water wings and stopping the high divers splashing water in the faces of the casual swimmers.

You and Pete were good lifeguards Brad, there were simply not enough of you to go around to see some of the potential Stevie Smith’s - not waving but drowning.

Brad
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since 08-20-99
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5 posted 03-22-2009 09:39 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Hmmm,

perhaps. I'm stuck with the idea that nobody else really wanted to be the lifeguard.

That was never a problem for me. Time and family however have always been an issue.

You can worry about that line,
I worry about

quote:
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
Grinch
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since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


6 posted 03-22-2009 10:13 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


I’d have given it a go Brad, though I doubt that Ron would have seen me as an acceptable contender.

Hence my being a little backwards in coming forwards.

I'm the shy retiring type if you hadn't noticed.

Not A Poet
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since 11-03-1999
Posts 4427
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7 posted 03-22-2009 11:46 AM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Certainly not all your fault Brad. If anything, probably more mine than yours. I do understand your frustration and apparent confusion.

Grinch, I don't agree with you on CA needing an additional moderator. With the rate of activity there, a single mod was plenty. If you meant a new one to replace the old cynics then, maybe.

And Ron, although I proved to not be capable, I do appreciate your giving me the opportunity to try moderating your forum. It has been one of my more pleasurable life experiences. I met a lot of good, friendly and intelligent people there and learned a lot from them as well as from the job. For that, I remain in your debt. For what it's worth though, If starting over, I'm afraid I would handle it pretty much the same. Sure, there were mistakes and I would hope to correct those but the overall approach would not change. I guess I didn't learn that part.

Also, should Brad step down, I agree that Stephen would make a excellent moderator for Philosophy.

Pete
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
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8 posted 03-22-2009 04:48 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

There must be some kind of way out of here
Said the joker to the thief
There's too much confusion
I can't get no relief
Business men they drink my wine
Ploughmen dig my earth
None of them along the line
Know what any of it is worth

No reason to get excited
The thief he kindly spoke
There are many here among us
Who feel that life is but a joke
But you and I we've been through that
And this is not our fate
So let us not talk falsely now
The hour's getting late

All along the watchtower
Prince's kept the view
While all the women came and went
Barefoot servants too
Outside in the cold distance
A wildcat did growl
Two riders were approaching

And the wind began to howl
All along the watchtower
All along the watchtower
All along the watchtower

--Bob Dylan
moonbeam
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9 posted 03-22-2009 05:08 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
My own view is that the way to avoid the potential for a drowning wasn't to dissuade the bathers with stricter rules, all it was lacking was another lifeguard,

Yes Grinch, I agree that would be the ideal.  Several lifeguards in fact and not even necessarily moderators.  Just commonsense and a clear view of what the purpose was, and what the boundaries were.

In the beginning there was a settled goodwill to make things work and a cache of people willing to be around a lot.  This got the forum through the difficult patches.  Neither the goodwill or the cache lasted, and eventually the underlying tension between aspiration and reality caused the centre not to hold.

I'm full of passionate intensity which I suppose makes me the worst.

Sorry to see you so disillusioned Brad, thought I don't see why you suddenly pick now.  CA was really lost a while back imo.  But maybe that's one of the things you don't follow.
Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


10 posted 03-22-2009 08:05 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

But both Jim and Bob started contributing in those last two years.

As to the Monk Frost thing, we had similar problems from the very beginning. That's one of the reasons Ruth became a moderator.

But M., in Grinch's thread you were worried that people weren't being critical enough. Ron is arguing that people need to be more civil. These aren't opposing views but they are different goals.

And everybody, everybody, everybody seems to be offended by something. I can't figure out what the next thing will be and tend to think that most of it can be talked through.  A moderator is necessary when things cross the line. I saw nothing that crossed the line (no doubt Ron and I disagree on where that line is).

Why now? I don't know. I've never liked deleting stuff. Maybe I just felt it was time to stop being a MINO.
Brad
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since 08-20-99
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Jejudo, South Korea


11 posted 03-22-2009 08:22 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Let me give an example: earlier this morning, I was reading in Open and looked at one that requested a crit.

Okay, I had a couple of things to say but then I read the responses and they went along the lines of "You don't need crit, it's perfect as is."

I hesitated. Not because I think I'm wrong or that I was going to give bad advice, not because I thought they were wrong in sharing that opinion, but because it looks like a headache waiting to happen.

By offering a crit however polite, I am challenging their view. Now maybe nothing would have happened this time around but to me it looks like a migraine waiting to happen.

And as far as I can tell Open moderators already take enough aspirin.  

Do you see what I'm getting at?
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


12 posted 03-22-2009 09:01 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


What's dead is dead
Bury it and move on . . .


.
JenniferMaxwell
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13 posted 03-22-2009 09:27 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I get your point, Brad...I think. So what do you recommend - doing away with all critique requests,  never expressing a conflicting point of view?

Take a look at Bob’s most recent critique and see how he deals with a situation similar to that, voicing a opinion different from that of another critter without turning it into a challenge. There’s a lesson there for all of us.

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


14 posted 03-22-2009 09:45 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

A clique?
JenniferMaxwell
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15 posted 03-22-2009 10:01 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Oh well, I tried.
Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


16 posted 03-22-2009 11:39 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Hmmmm,

I guess you're not a big fan of the idea. Fair enough. Still, if you want something like CA back, doesn't it makes sense to show Ron how it might work?

I like the idea of a clique because it circumvents a lot of the problems that have been specifically addressed. It doesn't take a lot of people, and it's easy to coordinate. It doesn't have to be elitist. People who want do it just have to ask. And best of all, the only thing you really have to do is follow the general rules for PIP.

It's a win win situation.

Until reality wakes up.
moonbeam
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17 posted 03-23-2009 04:45 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
What's dead is dead
Bury it and move on . . .

You're missing the point Huan.  This isn't about CA, this is about exploring what poetry can be, or is. That will never die.
moonbeam
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18 posted 03-23-2009 05:43 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

And I agree with Brad totally on both counts here:

First, I know exactly what you mean about posting to Open threads where somebody has already said a poem is "perfect".  Especially where they couple it to a personal reference to something challenging going on in the poster's life.  Any comment other that a completely positive and supportive one potentially upsets both the other replier and the original poster.  There have been many threads in Open I'd like to comment on, where the crit flag is "Yes" but I don't feel I can for those reasons.  

This Ron is why I said in the other thread that you do need a different forum, where the expectation is tilted away from pure social networking and support toward just comment on the poem.  It doesn't preclude chat and respect and tolerance, but what it does do is remove the implied default position that says: being negative about a poem = being negative about the poster and the other repliers.

Second:

I agree with Brad again about the "clique".  Clique is an emotional word.  But what I think he, and I mean, is simply a group of regulars who also act as quasi-monitors of the goings on in the forum.  If they all have a clear idea of what is and isn't desirable (according to Ron's ideas of course) then I think it might work.  In fact in the past it has worked.

Also, as someone commented on what I said a while back, I should mention that I suppose I've shifted my thinking a bit recently.  More rules and more "moderator" participation are an either/or I suspect.  More participation would obviate the necessity for rules I guess.  As for very harsh critiques, I suspect they are rarely, if ever, justified.

And on moderation, look at what that excellent moderator of the Poetry Workshop has just done.  Chops and I were getting rather too garrulous, off topic banter, and he simply weighed in with a reminder that we were in a workshop, where banter is quite rightly discouraged.  That's all I've really ever argued for in CA: just a few lines, like Balladeer just drew, where a mod would step in and nip unworkshoplike behaviour in the bud before acrimony started.  

If Ron, you don't think what Monk Frost did was "unworkshoplike" then we ain't gonna agree.  But let's just see what Balladeer does with his recent post

http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum22/HTML/000992.html

in the Poetry Workshop shall we?

M

PS (some hours later)  

Voila! :

"Not Found

The requested URL /pip/Forum22/HTML/000992.html was not found on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request."

Deleted or moved without ceremony or fuss.  Now what was so hard about that?

[This message has been edited by moonbeam (03-23-2009 10:47 AM).]

Ron
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19 posted 03-23-2009 11:20 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Sorry, Rob, but waiting for Balladeer isn't an option; I got to it first. I have no doubt Mike would have done the same, though he probably would have sent a nice letter (I didn't, because I've already sent several).

Poems are regularly moved from places they don't belong. Like from the Poetry Workshop, from Passions in Prose, and from any of the discussion forums. Each of those forums have posted rules. Until Mike recently stepped in and loosened the rules, it wasn't even possible for someone to start a thread in his Workshop without permission. That's the way it was designed to work.

CA had no such posted rules, in large part because I've always argued against them. Several days before the forum was closed, I tried to make it clear the direction we were headed wasn't going to fly. I guess I was too subtle.

FTR, round about ten years ago, this collective forum was the end result of a handful of people who were tired of seeing trash and being trashed at other sites. It was formed by a clique. So, yea, a clique can definitely work. The one in CA very much didn't work.


Not A Poet
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20 posted 03-23-2009 11:29 AM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

quote:
The one in CA very much didn't work.

Depends very much on your point of view.

Ron
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21 posted 03-23-2009 11:52 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Maybe so, Pete. Seems to me, though, it mostly depends on the results?
Local Rebel
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22 posted 03-23-2009 02:49 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

It seems to me Brad that the whole point of 'Daybreak' was about starting fresh, a new day, leaving the past behind.  Exploring, cultivating, -- the riders are going to the watchtower full of Princes and Principalities -- to change what?  Because what is the real value?  In the end I mean.  And if it's the real value in the end -- shouldn't it be now?

Spoken only in friendship as one thief to a joker.
Dark Star
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23 posted 03-23-2009 02:59 PM       View Profile for Dark Star   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Dark Star

speaking of the end of the Battle star galactica, i just watched it yesterday, good episode

Lana
moonbeam
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24 posted 03-23-2009 04:53 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
Sorry, Rob, but waiting for Balladeer isn't an option; I got to it first.


I'm not sure why you are apologising Ron.  Of course it's not an option, the sooner it was cleared off the board the better.  It kind of reinforces my point.
quote:
I have no doubt Mike would have done the same, though he probably would have sent a nice letter (I didn't, because I've already sent several).

See, what's a shame is that you didn't mention that you were sending letters to him when he was bombarding CA.  If we had know you were doing something positive to resolve the situation perhaps a certain impatience wouldn't have developed.  Not that it would ultimately have made any real difference.
quote:
Poems are regularly moved from places they don't belong. Like from the Poetry Workshop, from Passions in Prose, and from any of the discussion forums. Each of those forums have posted rules. Until Mike recently stepped in and loosened the rules, it wasn't even possible for someone to start a thread in his Workshop without permission. That's the way it was designed to work.

CA had no such posted rules, in large part because I've always argued against them.

Well there you go.  That's fine Ron.  I understand now.  

For some reason (which incidentally I still don't fully understand) you were willing to post rules in other workshops but not in CA.  The long and short of it is that the Poetry Workshop was designed to work in a way that worked and CA was "designed" to work in a way that didn't work, because that's the way you wanted it.  It makes it sound awfully like you (or someone) half wanted it to fail when stated like that.  Workshops in real life don't work with little admin input and no rules, so I really don't understand why anybody is surprised that CA didn't.

And lest you cite the respect and tolerance issue again; it seems to me that respect and tolerance are not threatened by additional rules in other forums, so I wonder why they should have been in CA.  I actually believe the reverse.  Some small rules and boundaries would have avoided misunderstanding and promoted respect and tolerance.
quote:
Several days before the forum was closed, I tried to make it clear the direction we were headed wasn't going to fly. I guess I was too subtle.

Nope not at all.  As I've said several times now, I saw the signs a way back, both from you and from my own observation.  I'll say again: it's sad to lose some sort of critiquing forum, but CA was doomed in its design, and I'm glad to see the back of it because, despite the sporadic efforts of valiants like Grinch, Jenn, Jim, Bob and Brad, it's been imo very far from a productive forum or a nice place to be for a long while.
quote:
FTR, round about ten years ago, this collective forum was the end result of a handful of people who were tired of seeing trash and being trashed at other sites. It was formed by a clique. So, yea, a clique can definitely work. The one in CA very much didn't work.

Yes, I know about the origins Ron.  You do yourself and Nan and the rest an injustice by describing yourselves as a clique.  Group of very kind, well meaning and generous people would be nearer the mark.  

You rightly had complete control and close liaison with each other as well as a lasting empathy.  But you aren't really comparing like with like Ron.  CA had to rely on volunteer moderators and an assortment of ephemeral regulars (if you'll forgive the oxymoron).  There were a couple of times that a group knitted for long enough to hold things together pretty well, but the way now I read it, the lack of clarity/rules/discipline (yes, discipline is what Balladeer has in the Poetry Workshop) ultimately caused dissatisfactions that caused such groups to fragment when they could have held together and been strengthened.  I find that a pity.

One other thing.  I'm trying to listen to my better side Ron   , but even so I can't help wondering if you (and others) really wanted CA to succeed, or whether it wasn't just a  bit of an embarrassment and occasional annoyance.  It almost seemed to me that a times you were ignoring the build up of challenging situations in order to test the patience of the posters there to see whether in fact they would break the respect and tolerance guidelines.  And when they did you could turn round and say; "I told you so" or "this forum ain't working".

Ron, I know I've probably riled you again in this post.  I hope not though, because I mean none of it vindictively.  I know that you are honourable, and I'm simply trying to understand what seem to me like contradictions of approach.  Above all, Rebel is right.  I don't believe in turning the clock back to another CA.  Perhaps rather pathetically however, I still cling to the belief that conceptually a critiquing workshop at PiP could have been made to work well within the umbrella of your respect and tolerance philosophy.

Thanks for listening to me yet again.  

Rob
 
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