Sorry, Rob, but waiting for Balladeer isn't an option; I got to it first.
I'm not sure why you are apologising Ron. Of course it's not an option, the sooner it was cleared off the board the better. It kind of reinforces my point.
I have no doubt Mike would have done the same, though he probably would have sent a nice letter (I didn't, because I've already sent several).
See, what's a shame is that you didn't mention that you were sending letters to him when he was bombarding CA. If we had know you were doing something positive to resolve the situation perhaps a certain impatience wouldn't have developed. Not that it would ultimately have made any real difference.
Poems are regularly moved from places they don't belong. Like from the Poetry Workshop, from Passions in Prose, and from any of the discussion forums. Each of those forums have posted rules. Until Mike recently stepped in and loosened the rules, it wasn't even possible for someone to start a thread in his Workshop without permission. That's the way it was designed to work.
CA had no such posted rules, in large part because I've always argued against them.
Well there you go. That's fine Ron. I understand now.
For some reason (which incidentally I still don't fully understand) you were willing to post rules in other workshops but not in CA. The long and short of it is that the Poetry Workshop was designed to work in a way that worked and CA was "designed" to work in a way that didn't work, because that's the way you wanted it. It makes it sound awfully like you (or someone) half wanted it to fail when stated like that. Workshops in real life don't work with little admin input and no rules, so I really don't understand why anybody is surprised that CA didn't.
And lest you cite the respect and tolerance issue again; it seems to me that respect and tolerance are not threatened by additional rules in other forums, so I wonder why they should have been in CA. I actually believe the reverse. Some small rules and boundaries would have avoided misunderstanding and promoted respect and tolerance.
Several days before the forum was closed, I tried to make it clear the direction we were headed wasn't going to fly. I guess I was too subtle.
Nope not at all. As I've said several times now, I saw the signs a way back, both from you and from my own observation. I'll say again: it's sad to lose some sort of critiquing forum, but CA was doomed in its design, and I'm glad to see the back of it because, despite the sporadic efforts of valiants like Grinch, Jenn, Jim, Bob and Brad, it's been imo very far from a productive forum or a nice place to be for a long while.
FTR, round about ten years ago, this collective forum was the end result of a handful of people who were tired of seeing trash and being trashed at other sites. It was formed by a clique. So, yea, a clique can definitely work. The one in CA very much didn't work.
Yes, I know about the origins Ron. You do yourself and Nan and the rest an injustice by describing yourselves as a clique. Group of very kind, well meaning and generous people would be nearer the mark.
You rightly had complete control and close liaison with each other as well as a lasting empathy. But you aren't really comparing like with like Ron. CA had to rely on volunteer moderators and an assortment of ephemeral regulars (if you'll forgive the oxymoron). There were a couple of times that a group knitted for long enough to hold things together pretty well, but the way now I read it, the lack of clarity/rules/discipline (yes, discipline is what Balladeer has in the Poetry Workshop) ultimately caused dissatisfactions that caused such groups to fragment when they could have held together and been strengthened. I find that a pity.
One other thing. I'm trying to listen to my better side Ron , but even so I can't help wondering if you (and others) really wanted CA to succeed, or whether it wasn't just a bit of an embarrassment and occasional annoyance. It almost seemed to me that a times you were ignoring the build up of challenging situations in order to test the patience of the posters there to see whether in fact they would break the respect and tolerance guidelines. And when they did you could turn round and say; "I told you so" or "this forum ain't working".
Ron, I know I've probably riled you again in this post. I hope not though, because I mean none of it vindictively. I know that you are honourable, and I'm simply trying to understand what seem to me like contradictions of approach. Above all, Rebel is right. I don't believe in turning the clock back to another CA. Perhaps rather pathetically however, I still cling to the belief that conceptually a critiquing workshop at PiP could have been made to work well within the umbrella of your respect and tolerance philosophy.
Thanks for listening to me yet again.