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Passions in Poetry

Give And Get in Poetry

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Bob K
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0 posted 03-17-2009 03:18 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I'm sad to see the end of Constructive Criticism as a topic here.  I've found it useful on a few occasions to submit and on more occasions to offer feedback.  I've found that offering feedback has helped me in writing stuff I haven't posted here.  I like to think that the feedback I've offered has been useful on occasion to those who've had an interest in accepting it or even in rejecting it angrily enough to form their own thinking about how to write more clearly.

     I don't think that this sort of thing has to end simply because a category called Constructive Criticism has gotten wrecked on the shoals.  It certainly can, if we let it do so, and if there is no interest in pushing on with it in some sort of reformulated way.  

     We pretty much know what we have to do if we want some sort of thing like this to rise from the ruins.  We have to talk among ourselves and see what each of us is willing to contribute and what each of us hopes to get out of such a place.  It must satisfy those of us who feel we have something to contribute, including Ron, whose contribution must return enough to him in some fashion to make the giant difficulty worth taking on.  

     I propose as an initial step, to see if, in fact we can go any further, that we try to say what we hope to get from such a site and to say what we hope to give to such a site.  We may not have enough in common here to go any further.  If we do, however, the very process of negotiation may prove of some interest.

     My thinking is that if folks want to know about meter and metrics, Balladeer is already running an interesting forum.  I can offer feedback about what the poem seems to be about.  I can ask for folks to be specific and to offer clear imagery and to pay attention to the movement and internal logic of the poem.  I can offer feedback about where the poem seems to be going and what it seems to be asking for.  I can expect to be one voice among many voices.  I hope to hear other voices offering substantive feedback as well.  Substantive feedback does not include blanket dismissal or self aggrandizement.  One does not need others to indulge in such things, and it tends to poison the well that everybody draws from.  I would hope that feedback is designed to help others.  

     Those of early thoughts.  I'd be very interested in hearing what others have to say.  Perhaps we can create something mutually satisfactory and beneficial here.

Sincerely,  Bob Kaven
Grinch
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1 posted 03-17-2009 04:10 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

I donít think thereís much chance of resurrecting CA or creating a similar forum Bob, Ron was pretty clear about that.

I do think however that constructive criticism has a place at PIP and I for one plan to continue offering it in the other forums when itĎs requested.

Unfortunately Iím not an expert in any particular area of poetry so I canít offer much apart from an insight into how I write poems. Iím not sure how useful that is given my lack of ability but if anyone wants to know how to write poetry as badly as I do I guess, in that regard,  Iím about the closest thing to an expert you can get.

JenniferMaxwell
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2 posted 03-17-2009 06:53 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I can be a little dense at times so I need to ask a few specific and rather direct questions. Hope thatís ok, Bob.

First, are you talking about another CA type forum on this particular site, Bob, or were you perhaps suggesting starting new site? Youíve used the word site instead of forum, thatís why Iím a bit confused.

Secondly, be it site or forum, what do you think would have to be done in order to prevent another shipwreck? That last one was rather traumatic for some of the regulars/long time participants who didnít see or werenít advised it was coming - left them a bit shocked, hurt and floundering.

And finally, have you actually run this by Ron? You seem to be suggesting he would be involved.

I donít have the skills or knowledge to offer very much in the way of critiquing, so itís going to take a little thinking to see if I could come up with some way to contribute.


Huan Yi
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3 posted 03-17-2009 09:13 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


I think ďconstructive criticismĒ is suspect
in that it always restricts the poet to the demands of the time.
If confessional or personally advocating ďIĒ poems are the fashion
then  ďconstructive criticismĒ will be from those themes.  No one
makes money writing poetry, much less able to live well on the proceeds,
hence I think it is  best treated as an innocuous hobby which at rare times,
even from among the best of them , results in something worth the time
to read.


.
Bob K
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4 posted 03-18-2009 02:46 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Forum, not site.  I wouldn't know what to do about setting up a site.  

     I'm suggesting a suggestion as to what folks want and what they'd be willing to offer in such a forum.

     If Ron isn't interested in having such a thing here, I don't know what alternatives to suggest.  I'd imagine that whatever options we'd come up with would have to include stuff that Ron finds interesting enough to at least tolerate and preferably enjoy.  That would be up to him to say.  Clearly it would have to be different enough from the last attempt at Constructive Criticism to be of interest.

     Huan Yi has said some stuff about what he doesn't like.

     I've been away from the Constructive Criticism forum for quite a while, so I don't know what it was that actually made that forum such a shipwreck for Ron or for other folks involved.  My sense is that a lot of the time may have been spent talking about abstractions instead of what improves a poem.  By "improving" here, I mean specifically, making it more publishable.  I think that there should definitely be a place for poems that folks aren't so ambitious about, poems that are more personal, poems that are more emotional expression of political or religious ideas that aren't shooting for publication but for a more limited audience.  To my mind, this forum would not be that place.  I would want folks to be supportive and respectful, but to be clear about what needed to be improved and why.

     If issues of craft came up, and I'm sure they would, I'd expect them to be pegged specifically to the work under discussion.  My thought is that we'd probably talk about one poem at a time submitted by somebody who wanted feedback, and that we'd try to give good weight on a discussion of that poem before going on to another.  How to choose which poem will be looked at, I don't know yet.  You'd have to give criticism in order to get any, though.

     These are some thoughts so far.  Firmly carved in jello.  Anybody else with thoughts?


moonbeam
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5 posted 03-18-2009 07:20 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

I just wrote this in reply to someone in Open before I saw this thread Bob:


"    quote:I do not know why Critical Analysis wouldn't allow this on the forum. Leaves me with many questions.


What questions do you have Artic Wind?

I am not sure what you mean by Critical Analysis "not allowing" something?

I think some people here have entirely the wrong idea about this mysterious arcane science called CRITICAL ANALYSIS.  

Personally I have always disliked the phrase critical analysis.  It smacks of mechanistic dissection and forensic examination according to set rules.  It sounds intimidating, and full of importance.

All it is really is:

"Close reading and honest comment" - CRHC.

So when you think of it like that you can see there is no question of CRHC not "allowing" something.

Everything is allowed in poetry.

All I'm doing is reading Karen's poem very carefully in order to try and tell her what I personally like and dislike about it and why?  It's not formulaic or prescribed.  Also I think it's partly selfish in that by studying closely what makes poetry work for me I think I see flaws in my own work more quickly.  I hope so anyway.

Hope that clarifies.

M"

I'll be back later on this Bob.  
Grinch
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6 posted 03-18-2009 09:19 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


I think Ron was pretty clear what he wants PIP to be Bob:

ďOver the years, Critical Analysis has tended to attract people who are really passionate about poetry. And I absolutely respect that. I admire it. But it's not me.Ē

ďPoetry, for me, will always place a distant second to poets. It's the people who count most.Ē

ďLike I said, this forum seems to attract people who are really passionate about their poetry. While I sincerely respect that, I don't intend to abandon my own passions to support theirs.Ē

PIP is a social networking site Bob, built for people to interact with other people, the fact that itís based around a poetry theme is incidental, if you happen to learn a bit about poetry while youíre here thatís a bonus but not the main aim. Once you realise that you get to understand what an anathema the CA forum actually became, instead of attracting people who first and foremost wanted to socialise it attracted people who were really passionate about poetry, so passionate that sometimes they abandoned social etiquette to make their point.

Itís like having a coach of a little league team who has aspirations of reaching the world series, his aims are diametrically opposed to everyone elseís. The kids are passionate about having fun and taking part, and maybe learning a little about baseball along the way, heís passionate about winning and is aiming for success at all costs.

Take a look at CA and the Workshop then take a look at Open, the number of people contributing in each speaks volumes about what people want from this site. The number of people passionate about poetry is miniscule compared with the number of people who are here simply to have a bit of fun and social interaction. If you can accommodate both that would be great but CA is testament that it doesnít work. When coaches start berating kids who turn up to try out but struggle to hit a ball or are holding the bat the wrong way itís time for someone to step in and either sack the coach or close the team down. Ron stepped up and I think he deserves a little credit for that.

How many people really want to be the next Joe DiMaggio?

Not many, but there are some, and if they happen to wander up and ask an old player how to hit a curve ball Iím sure Ron wonít mind a little private coaching here and there as long as both parties get a little bit of something out of it.  The important thing is theyíve got to want to know and theyíve got to ask.

I ainít no Joe DiMaggio, Iím not even Joe the plumber, but some people think I can swing a bat fairly well and have a half decent pitch. If they ask me for an opinion on their game or a little help on how I think they could improve it - fine. I can do that just as easily on the front lawn of Open or the back lot of Dark I donít need someone to build me a Yankee Stadium to play in.

Just my opinion
turtle
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7 posted 03-18-2009 02:10 PM       View Profile for turtle   Email turtle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for turtle

Quote: (Grinch)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The number of people passionate about poetry is miniscule compared with the number of people who are here simply to have a bit of fun and social interaction. If you can accommodate both that would be great but CA is testament that it doesnít work.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Really? Then what does that make PIP? I'm glad you say this is "Just my opinion" because it is. If it were true then all those other poetry sites out there where posters are primarily posting in crit forums and workshops would be floundering in disrepair.......(like CA?). You should get out more Grinch, your opinion might apply at PIP, but I hardly see it applying to these poetry blogs as a whole

Quote: (Grinch)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How many people really want to be the next Joe DiMaggio?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As many as can dream........

Quote: (Ron)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It's the people who count most. My objective for this site and most others I run has always been to encourage writers to write. I like to give them the tools to both write and write better, but honestly the latter has always been a secondary goal.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes. We should encourage writers to write, but write what? I doubt that one in a thousand will attain any form of recognition, if they try.

Quote: (Bob)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't think that this sort of thing has to end simply because a category called Constructive Criticism has gotten wrecked on the shoals. It certainly can, if we let it do so,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bob -  I agree. A site that gives no quarter to those who desire to better themselves in their art form is, in essence, just a vanity site. To not provide a haven for those more dedicated writers drives them away. To not provide a place for dedicated writers to post discourages them from joining and participating. I won't post my poetry in a vanity site. I feel I've put too much time, work, and dedication into my art.

Eventually the depth of understanding of the art form at a site can be diminished. Eventually it could be garbage in, garbage out and everyone pats everyone on the back and tells themselves what great poets they are. Eventually you may not be able to give your writers the tools to write with, because there will be no one around that knows how to use those tools......Heck! There may not be anyone around to even know that they need a tool.

This site has a lot of problems though mainly CA, that is not the only problem. However, understanding, consensus and guidelines might solve, or at least curb those problems. Like Ron says, there are a lot sites on the net. Some of them have critiquing forums that work. Many become cliques, but that may not have to be a bad thing if everyone is on the same page. And some sites may only need serve as the basis for a templet that works for this site.

Quote: (Ron)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like I said, this forum seems to attract people who are really passionate about their poetry. While I sincerely respect that, I don't intend to abandon my own passions to support theirs.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I hope that by dissuading those dedicated writers you are not diminishing your own passions.

turtle
Grinch
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8 posted 03-18-2009 02:21 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
You should get out more Grinch, your opinion might apply at PIP, but I hardly see it applying to these poetry blogs as a whole


Thanks coach.

As my comments were wholly concerned with PIP Iíll take that as a compliment.

JenniferMaxwell
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9 posted 03-18-2009 02:28 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Took a trip through CA archives. Seems it did work for about ten years, admittedly with some very rough spots along the way, the same sort of rough spots that keep popping up in the Alley and other discussion forums, or as Grinch so delicately put it, some forgot their social etiquette. People are human, push their buttons hard enough and some are bound to spout off. Seems to me thatís when you need a moderator/administrator to gently but firmly put things back on track and be consistent with their expectations.

As for what people want on this site based on the number of posts in certain forums, check out Dark and Corner Pub. They seem to move at about the same speed as CA did. Spiritual Journey and Prose are even slower moving.

Why a Constructive Criticism forum? Do a survey in Open and ask how many would like to have a few of their poems published someday. Think youíll see quite a few hands go up. There are those on this site with the knowledge, experience and expertise that could help some of those with the dream of being published achieve their goal.

I misunderstand things sometimes, but it seems to me what Bobís proposing is a more structured type forum where the focus would be directed towards the poem (and one poem at a time) rather than rambling discussions about poetics in general or personalities.  Seems those sort of discussions were what put CA on the shoals. Discussions about poetics in general, like any other discussion topic, should have a place, but not in the comment box. The focus should be on the poem, why it works or doesnít and what might be done to improve it. Iíd like to see what Bob seems to be proposing given a chance. As uncomfortable as I am about critiquing, Iíd be willing to give it a shot in order to have a forum like that.
moonbeam
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10 posted 03-18-2009 02:41 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Just looking in for a moment.

I agree with everything Jenn said, most of what Turtle said and 99% of what Grinch said apart from:

"Take a look at CA and the Workshop then take a look at Open, the number of people contributing in each speaks volumes about what people want from this site. The number of people passionate about poetry is miniscule compared with the number of people who are here simply to have a bit of fun and social interaction. If you can accommodate both that would be great but CA is testament that it doesnít work."

I don't think the failure of CA proved that.  

The failure of CA proved other forms of incompatibility, but not really that people here to socialise and have fun can't live at the same site as those passionate about poetry.

I really will be back later Bob.
Bob K
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11 posted 03-18-2009 06:11 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     If this is going to work, I think it needs to work for as many of us as possible.  I think we still need to be listening to what people want and would like to give and get from a forum to see what's possible here.  Everybody has to walk away with enough to keep them willing to come back for more, and the downside ó and there will have to be a downside will have to be clearly outweighed by the gains.  All of us need to think about that balance for ourselves and for everybody else as well.  What do I hope to get, what can I imagine being happy giving?  What feedback am I willing to offer and what feedback am I willing to accept?

     I'm really happy with the amount of feedback folks have offered in what's been to me so far only a fond hope.  It seems that there may be some folks out there who share at least pieces of that hope.   I'm interested to see where the discussion goes from here.  All my best to everybody.

Bob Kaven
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12 posted 03-18-2009 06:39 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


To quote Ron:

quote:
The Critical Analysis forum is no more.


quote:
there will be no replacement for CA when it is moved to the Archives page


At the risk of sounding like a character in a Monty Python sketch Bob CA has passed on, it is no more, it has ceased to be, itís expired, gone to meet itís maker, a stiff, resting in peace, pushing up daisies, kicked the bucket, shuffled off this mortal coil.

CA is an ex-forum and unless Ron does a complete u-turn it ainít coming back - in any way, shape, or form.

If it does do a Lazarus give me a shout - until then Iím off to play in the other forums.

moonbeam
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13 posted 03-18-2009 07:06 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Bob

Apologies, I thought I'd have time this evening to address this properly but it seems not.  In the meantime I've lifted another thread dealing with the problems of the old CA forum, some of which might be pertinent in thinking about any possible new way forward.

Rob

Grinch, you parrot murderer you
Balladeer
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14 posted 03-18-2009 09:10 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ron goes through several steps...

1. He jokes about something, hoping other will get the point

2. His comment are a little more direct.

3. He starts deleting comments

4. He deletes comments and adds comments of his own.

5. He says knock it off.

6. He ends it.

That's what happened in CA. I mention it because we are at step 5 in the Alley. If we reach #6, the Alley will follow CA into oblivion. Time to give that some thought...

For people who really want help or advice on improving their work, why not pick out a poet you admire and ask for their help or input? You can trade e-mails, IM's, phone calls or whatever. Why is it necessary to do it in public, if bettering your work is your only objective? How can advice from someone you don't respect as a poet lead to anything but resentment or bad feelings? CA forums only work if they are conducted by experts in the field.

Only a fraction of a percent of PIP members have ever visited the CA forum. It won't be back and, if we're not careful, other forums will follow.

"A circle of friends"..that's Ron's vision and he won't accept anything less. We can accept it or move on....simple as that.


BTW, Bob, thanks for your well-wishes. All is well. A nasty form of skin cancer decided my face made an excellent home and it was necessary to file an eviction notice with a sharp blade. Another scar,but who's counting?
Grinch
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15 posted 03-18-2009 09:39 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
For people who really want help or advice on improving their work, why not pick out a poet you admire and ask for their help or input?


Thatís not a bad idea Mike, maybe some of the folk from CA could follow your example and post a lesson in the workshop. Anybody who turns up and gets involved is obviously interested and looking for some help and advice which might avoid some of the friction generated in CA.

I pop into the Workshop every now and again and I have to admit that the atmosphere is a whole lot better than it was in CA, thatís probably due to the fact that people see whatís on offer up front and either decide to join in or decide to give it a miss.

JenniferMaxwell
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16 posted 03-18-2009 09:39 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I donít see what Bobís proposing as being a replacement for CA. What heís proposing seems to have an entirely different slant, getting a rough draft poem shaped up so thereís at least a chance of seeing it in print.  For the last year or so, CA seemed to be more of a discussion forum tarnished somewhat by personality clashes and strutting egos. Sort of an Alley II, if you will.

Or maybe Iím just grasping at straws because Iím afraid the good people from CA will move on to another site if they no longer have juicy bits to sink their critiquing teeth into or a particular forum where they as well as others can ask for input on their work. What a tremendous loss that would be.

The closing of CA has really been a good thing in the sense that it seemed to wake some people up to the fact that they need to be far more sensitive to other peoples feelings, formulate their negative reactions in a more positive fashion, address the poem rather than attack the poet or others who comment and leave their egos at door before they put their pen in gear. I think the time may be ripe to cash in on that wake-up call. Something really good could rise from the ashes.  Howís that for a bunch of mixed metaphors?  

Also, I think Bob has a good grasp on how a Constructive Critique forum could be set up so that some of the pitfalls that caused CA to crash might be avoided. And, no doubt in my mind, that should what heís proposing not work out, heíd be the first to suggest closing the door.

Just read your post, Balladeer. Short on time right now but I would like to get back to you on a couple of points.

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17 posted 03-18-2009 09:57 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Grinch, not only come over to the workshop but there could even be specialty workshops similar to mine. I'm a complete novice with regards to free verse and don;t have it in my workshop. A free verse workshop, conducted by someone free verse poets respect as very knowledgeable in that genre would be a good idea, I would think, as long as it is being conducted by one person and not turned into  another CA.
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18 posted 03-18-2009 10:25 PM       View Profile for turtle   Email turtle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for turtle

WOW! I've been writing this little blurb on and off all afternoon to post in Grinch's thread. I'm amazed at how close we all are in being on the same page.

I  think you have some good ideas beamer and Bob, but I found some interesting things in Grinch's thread that your ideas do not address. The main thing it does not address is Ron's wishes. Another thing your guidelines don't address is reality. As Essorant points out on page 2 of Grinch's thread and what I find pertinent in my life is that fate plays a large part in what brings people to poetry. What I think Ron is saying is that he wants that same "fate" and in some respects "desire"  to play a part in how he wants this site's members to grow and how he wants people to be inspired. I think what he is saying is he wants to provide the "tools" for those who want to learn and grow in this art form. Perhaps the guidelines should be addressed more to the ones doing critiques and less to the posters. Perhaps what is needed is less a guideline and more a philosophy or credo everyone can agree with and adhere to. OR perhaps a bit of both.

Unfortunately, I don't feel this would solve the problems in CA for me, because I feel my hands are tied here. If I want to help an emerging or perspective writer and need to suggest to someone that they should get into a poetry workshop, I can't recommend this site. No disrespect to Balladeer here, I think he does a great job and he's clearly dedicated to this site. I once spent a few years in an online poetry workshop and over those years the participants learned and grew together. It was great for those of us who'd been around from the beginning, we were all on the same page. But, for any new comers we were way over their heads and they couldn't keep up. Personally, I think the needs of a newer poet are best served in a workshop environment were discussion could be more pertinent when applied to their skill level.

Unfortunately, I don't think that all of Ron's expectations are realistic either. A good and talented poet with experience (A Ron tool) can usually distinguish between a talent and brain gas....errrr. No talent. Would it not be advantageous to all concerned if those more skilled members could work with and encourage those talents that come along from time to time and post in open?

One more point of interest I have observed here, is that the default setting for a critique is set to "No". The result of this could mean the very people that come here with talent and are looking for help may not change that default setting because perhaps they don't know what a critique is, or perhaps they feel they are here looking for help, not critique. What if the default setting for critique were set to "Yes". Then the member would have to make a conscience choice to not receive critiques. Wouldn't this make things more clear for both the member and those doing critiques.

turtle
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19 posted 03-18-2009 11:06 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Back to those couple of points, Balladeer.

In regard to your comment ďOnly a fraction of a percent of PIP members have ever visited the CA forumĒ,  let me respond by pointing out there has been less participation by PiP members in Workshop than in CA.

As for advise from those you donít respect, well, when you post your poem for critique you get what you get, just like in real life when you publish and your work is at the mercy of reviewers and critics you may not respect.

As for your suggestion of letting one person run a free verse workshop, I think youíd find, since there are far more free versers on the site than meter readers, it could get to be a little overwhelming for one person. And, one personís view can be very distorted depending on their personal likes and dislikes.

Focusing only on what was wrong in CA totally ignores what was good about it as can be seen by reading the CA archives as I did, and what a Constructive Critique forum could be with a little more structure, oversight and a few guidelines - exactly what Bob seems to be proposing - and others have in the past.

Hope your surgery was a total success, Balladeer. Be well and stay out of the sun.


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20 posted 03-18-2009 11:11 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


I wouldnít mind learning how to write free verse if someoneís up for it.

.
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21 posted 03-18-2009 11:25 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

In regard to your comment �Only a fraction of a percent of PIP members have ever visited the CA forum�,  let me respond by pointing out there has been less participation by PiP members in Workshop than in CA.

Not sure why you are pointing that out, Jennifer. The fact that less people frequent the workshop does not change the figures for CA so the point escapes me. The small percentage is not why CA is history.

Thanks for the kind words. Staying out of the sun in florida is a little difficult, as you well know
Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


22 posted 03-19-2009 03:02 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     The focus in workshop is more specifically on the sort of poems that Mike, who's running the workshop so deftly right now, is most comfortable teaching.  As it should be.  Mike doesn't pretend to be skillful in verse other than the sort he teaches, though I personally believe he is, and that he's being modest about the size of his talents.  Mike's take on how to go about teaching this sort of stuff is also highly specific, and tailored to the way he thinks the material ought to be conveyed, as it should be.  Only Mike can run the workshop as it stands with anything approaching the success that it has attained.  It is Mike's dominion; it requires Mike's steady hand.

     I think that the need I see here is something other.  I think we need to talk, as we are talking, to define more clearly what that need is.  I'd like to focus a bit more on feedback to aims to help folks revise toward publication, personally.  If not for the pieces presented ó though I'd hope to help the  poems in that direction ó then at least I'd like to help folks acquire the skills to get there.  Some of us already have those skills or are close to them, others want to work on gaining those skills.

     I don't think there's a lot of room for blustering and shows of ego in a situation like that; such displays get in the way of learning the stuff that needs to be learned and in practicing it in an ongoing way.  Though they are always there not too far below the surface, aren't they?  At least I know that I have to ride herd on my own fairly hard.  The point is that in a forum such as this, comments have to be focused on what will help the other folks grow.

     Anybody have any thoughts on this?  And how do we make it useful to those who want to be an active part, should there be any such people in the long run?  What will make people want to show up in the first place?  

    
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


23 posted 03-19-2009 07:36 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Let's see, you've got Grinch, Bob, M. Jennifer, Turtle, and a few others I'm sure will participate given a little time.

Why not just start?

Choose a forum and start talking to each other (Use M's code: CRHC). If others get interested then they can start doing it too.

Ron's concern is with civility and mutual respect. I can't imagine him getting upset with a little intellectual stimulation now and then.  

CA is dead, long live the CRHC!

PS This afternoon it hit me. Maybe the problem has always been separation. Why not give integration a shot? Try Grinch's idea and see what happens.
JenniferMaxwell
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Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


24 posted 03-19-2009 07:47 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Not sure if youíll get many weighing in on your proposal at this point, Bob. Even though what your proposing is far different from what CA was, some donít see the difference and I think are shying away from the topic for fear of seeming to support something Ron has banned. But, I think if it ever does come to the point where there is a forum labeled something like, Polishing Your Work For Publication, then you're going to see standing room only.

One thing Iíve seen in other similar forums that seems to help cut down on the blustering and the back and forth debates that can get so out of hand, is the one shot rule. Those who wish to comment/critique carefully prepare what they have to offer and are allowed to comment only once per poem. Another is that any comments directed at the poet or other comments rather than poem are deleted without discussion. Those with a grudge or an ax to grind just donít get a venue. And of course, the hook comes out for any off topic posts. Perhaps it might be helpful, a way to encourage those of us who feel weíre a little short on commenting skills, to post links to resources offering pointers.

Just saw your post Brad, and only have time for a quick response. I think Bobís idea of discussing goals and methods before setting sail is good way to help avoid another shipwreck. But thanks so much for your support and encouragement.

 
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