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Give And Get in Poetry

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Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


175 posted 04-15-2009 10:22 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Moonbeam

quote:
Dead right Ess, and simply because such a reoccurrence would be symptomatic of what Grinch says, viz, that the replacement would be going the same way as the Mk I version.


But there you go treating Monk Frost's kind of behaviour as if it were the problem or the sign of the problem, which displaces where you know the blame should be.  I think Grinch was saying that the forum would fail because our ill behaviour would continue, not because posting as Monk Frost did would be present or not considered inappropriate.      

Ron didn't agree with not accepting him or his posts, and our lack of courtesy thereto was the finishing point for the forum.  How do you think Ron may ever agree with a suggestion of a forum that does the same thing, treating behaviour like Monk Frost's as if it is wrong or innappropriate, the symptom of the problem, or the problem itself, when that kind of treatment was the finishing point for Critical Analysis?  

I certainly do think rules work, but I didn't intend the "points of appropriateness" to be "new" rules so to speak, but rather just branchings out of the general rules into more specific "points" adjusted specially to deal with the problematic situations we had in Critical Analysis.  I think they would work with a virtue of making people much more aware and cautious in CA just as the general rules themselves make people very aware and cautious of the rules of the site.  But in combination with the moderators upholding them as consistently as possible, I think they would reach the kind of level that Ron would hope for such a forum.   Thanks for supporting them.  I am just pointing out where your own argument seems to have a contradiction.


quote:
Ess, I don't understand why you think this discussion will be angering or annoying Ron?  I certainly hope it isn't because I think it's pretty constructive.  Just a pity we couldn't have had it years ago.


But does the "silent treatment" usually mean good things?

[This message has been edited by Essorant (04-15-2009 10:56 PM).]

Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


176 posted 04-16-2009 02:43 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

Dear Essorant,

     I don't know what "The Silent treatment" may be for you; it's different things for different people, and an explanation almost always gets into personal history.  I like personal history, but this isn't really the place for it, I don't believe, unless an emergency of some sort presents itself.

     The flip side of the silent treatment, is to let one's self act as though he or she was responsible for running both sides of every conversation to the point of kidding one's self that you've got the ability to read the mind of the other person, and to know what their intents and wishes are.  Beyond a certain limited degree, this is pretty much impossible.  It suggests that the two of you (or more) subscribe to telepathy as a common means of communication.  If there is such a thing, it doesn't seem to work all that dependably.  Nor would you have to wonder what Ron would think or do, would you?  You'd know.

     Ron seems like a pretty nice guy with a human set of normal neuroses, like most of us.  In the field we talk about "normal neurotics," which is a phrase I've always loved.  You've got to trust Ron to make his thoughts and feelings known when he thinks it's important, and to do it with the same amount of clumsiness available to anybody else at their best and worst.

     We have a say in what we do here and the fact is that in the end he has a deciding say because nobody else is willing to do the amount of work that he is, and it's his basketball.  Mostly he seems to have fun playing with the basketball, and sometimes he's got to worry about paying rent on the court, and keeping people acting civil as they practice, so other people can practice too.  Outside that, he's pretty negotiable, as near as I can tell.  If he says differently, then I'll listen to him like the Ron he is.  Beyond the power element, he's worth listening to because he's got interesting stuff to say.

     Don't try to anticipate him beyond the rules you're clear about, and which he's been clear about.  If he wants to say something, he can say it as well as you can.  In fact, about his stuff, he can say it better.

     In My Humble Opinion.

Sincerely, Mr. Bob
Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
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177 posted 04-16-2009 02:44 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

     You may not have noticed I said this above, but, believe me, I did.
moonbeam
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178 posted 04-16-2009 04:51 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
But there you go treating Monk Frost's kind of behaviour as if it were the problem or the sign of the problem, which displaces where you know the blame should be.  I think Grinch was saying that the forum would fail because our ill behaviour would continue, not because posting as Monk Frost did would be present or not considered inappropriate.      

Ron didn't agree with not accepting him or his posts, and our lack of courtesy thereto was the finishing point for the forum.  How do you think Ron may ever agree with a suggestion of a forum that does the same thing, treating behaviour like Monk Frost's as if it is wrong or innappropriate, the symptom of the problem, or the problem itself, when that kind of treatment was the finishing point for Critical Analysis?


Ess

Am I not explaining myself clearly?

Yes, MF's behaviour was a problem for me because it distracted from what I feel such a forum should be about.  That's my personal opinion.  At this stage of the debate I don't really care if it doesn't accord with Ron's or anyone else's.

I'm aware that Grinch thinks that the forum would fail because ill behaviour would continue.  I'm going one stage further and saying that that ill behaviour will be even more likely if MF type scenarios are allowed to reoccur.

This isn't about blame.  This is about establishing why bad behaviour in the forum occurred, and finding a solution to stop it happening again.

With very great respect to you Ess I think you are focussed too much on trying to second guess what might please Ron.  Ron's model for CA has failed once, and Ron is nothing else if not a realist. If, and it's a big IF, he ever wants the potential hassle of starting some similar forum again I am quite sure that it will be on the basis of some changes.  But don't think it's useful to try and surmise what detailed changes might please Ron, especially when they might produce a forum that wouldn't please me.  All I can do is say what I personally would like to see in a forum, and how that forum might be made to work.  That's all I've done and all I'm doing.  If Ron chooses to listen that's fine, if he doesn't that's equally fine by me     .

If I was Ron I'd be doing exactly what he may be doing, either: watching and reading with interest, or ignoring totally on the basis that he's had his fill of CA type forums for a decade or two.  Either scenario produces silence.  I wouldn't be annoyed though.

Best.

M
Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


179 posted 04-16-2009 07:43 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

quote:
If he wants to say something, he can say it as well as you can.  In fact, about his stuff, he can say it better.



I agree with you Bob.  But again, Ron already said things in the past about CA and his beliefs.  If you look (especially in CA) you will find.

quote:
All I can do is say what I personally would like to see in a forum, and how that forum might be made to work.


That is the problem Moonbeam.  It looks like you aren't willing to overlook a simple point of personal disagreement to make a compromise with what someone else believes in (Ron).  I agree that Ron would want changes, but I feel 99% sure that those changes wouldn't include treating anyone as if they or their participation should be treated as if it were inappropriate in one way or another because they don't participate up to a level of responsiveness or skill that you (or I) agree with.  That much seems endlessly clear from Ron's words.  There is no point in suggesting anything if you aren't willing to sacrafice something you don't agree with which in this case seems rather trivial, for you know that you don't need to have anything to do with a post whose participation level you don't think is "worth it", the more reason why it shall never be treated as innappropriate or deleted just because it doesn't please you.  Why won't you simply overlook that point to make a compromise?

moonbeam
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180 posted 04-16-2009 09:17 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
  It looks like you aren't willing to overlook a simple point of personal disagreement to make a compromise with what someone else believes in (Ron).  I agree that Ron would want changes, but I feel 99% sure that those changes wouldn't include treating anyone as if they or their participation should be treated as if it were inappropriate in one way or another because they don't participate up to a level of responsiveness or skill that you (or I) agree with.  

If that's what it looks like Ess then obviously I'm not making myself clear.  You make it sound as if it's a trivial point.  It's not.  It goes to the heart of the nature of any new forum.  Simply put:

1   I'm only interested in a new forum that can provide a congenial atmosphere for discussion of poetry.

2   I believe that respect should be shown for both the people who participate and also for the purpose of the forum, or that required atmosphere will not be forthcoming.

3   I believe that certain types of behaviour are disrespectful, and not conducive to an atmosphere of sensible discussion (MF's behaviour and the reaction it received were but one small example).

4   No-one is talking about exclusions any more than we talk about people being excluded from the Poetry Workshop when they deviate from the behaviour normally expected in there.  My idea of a new forum is a discussion based forum.  If someone enters the Poetry Workshop and does nothing but chatter they are asked politely by Balladeer to desist.  If someone enters a discussion forum and posts nothing but 20 poems with no attempt at discussion then they should be asked politely to desist.  Is that breaching the main PiP guidelines?  My view is that it is not.  

Finally, it is of course perfectly possible to create a forum where any post of any kind in any quantity would be acceptable within the PiP main guidelines, but I think the forums we have already provide that facility.

M
Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


181 posted 04-16-2009 09:37 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Well, I think the old CA was still a lot better (even if "of the evils" should follow the word) than this situation we have in the Alley. People were able and people did have discussions like those you are having with Bob and Jenn in here, in the CA forum.   But they also had the room to express themselves in many different ways as well.  Pete and Brad were moderators.  Chops was joking around. Grinch was still posting and responding to some poetry, instead of speaking doom and gloom and points of no return for the forum.  

I think Ron should judge the closure by its  results too.  From what I see the closure has not made anything better for anyone or anything.  Even Monk Frost was probably a lot more annoyed by not having CA to post poems in anymore than any comment he received from us.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (04-16-2009 10:09 PM).]

moonbeam
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182 posted 04-17-2009 04:21 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
People were able and people did have discussions like those you are having with Bob and Jenn in here, in the CA forum.   But they also had the room to express themselves in many different ways as well.  Pete and Brad were moderators.  Chops was joking around. Grinch was still posting and responding to some poetry, instead of speaking doom and gloom and points of no return for the forum.  

I think Ron should judge the closure by its  results too.  From what I see the closure has not made anything better for anyone or anything.  Even Monk Frost was probably a lot more annoyed by not having CA to post poems in anymore than any comment he received from us.  

Perhaps you put your finger on it Ess.  What you describe is an eclectic collection of people and postings, latterly largely ungoverned by day to day supervision of any kind, in a forum named "critical analysis".  If you try to stand apart and look at that description objectively it should, from your experience of real life, start to ring alarm bells immediately.  

Also I, for one, am a lot happier since closure.  It used to upset me seeing CA reduced to what it had become from what it had been on occasions.  It wasn't a good advert for either PiP or poetry.

But don't despair Ess, I think patience is required here.  Perhaps unlike Grinch, I still do see a role for some kind of poetry discussion forum at PiP some time in the future.  To get it right though it's worth taking a good long time to consider what might be best.  If and when Ron ever countenances opening a new forum I am sure it will be on the basis of careful thought and not a rushed decision.  
Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


183 posted 04-17-2009 12:11 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

What is new that suggests Ron is willing to do something this time?  What seems more favourable? A new round of years of patience, to find out nothing will be done again?  No thanks, Moonbeam.  

I fear that if Ron continues running the site so undemocractically, without letting other people--supposedly a "family"-- have any say in such things as closing a forum that was important to quite a few of them, not even letting the moderators of the forum have a "vote", as it looks like in this case, eventually this shall be a site run by one overhwelmed man, and it will have no new moderators arriving to inherit it when this generation is past.  There will be no one after him to keep up the site, for his undemocratic way of running the site when he will close a forum and lose moderators and members and activity at the site instead of improve the forum and encourage the moderators and members' continued participation.
 

moonbeam
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184 posted 04-17-2009 05:02 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Ess, come on, be rational, a lot of what you just said is likely to be nonsense and you must know it.  PiP isn't a democracy and no-one has ever pretended it is to my knowledge.  Possibly you're just trying to provoke Ron into responding, but all I know is that Ron ain't stupid, he will have thought about all the points you make about continuity (or not, as the case may be), and no doubt in his own good time he'll divulge.

Best.

M
 
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