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Passions in Poetry

Give And Get in Poetry

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moonbeam
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150 posted 04-12-2009 04:40 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

"An awakening experience", what a lovely way of putting it Jenn.

moonbeam
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151 posted 04-12-2009 04:46 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
But I am not so sure Ron believes his general philosophy and belief was the problem, rather than not putting a structure in place to make it work more accordingly.   Ron is strictly against excluding and turning people away, trying to dictate any kind of standard level of participation.

And so am I against exclusion, emphatically against.

Also I am absolutely sure that Ron doesn't believe his general philosophy and belief was the problem, and neither do I.  The problem was that his general philosophy and belief wasn't being adhered to.  The were several reasons for this imo and most of them are dealt with in your proposals, but right at the end of the life of the forum there was a clear example of someone behaving in a way that in my view isn't compatible with the sort of place I want to be part of.  
Essorant
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152 posted 04-12-2009 05:33 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

But didn't Ron make it clear that posting in a way Monk Frost did wasn't doing anything wrong according to how the site is run ?  Are you trying to convince him otherwise about that, or trying to show him that you would respect that if a new forum came about?
Grinch
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153 posted 04-12-2009 05:52 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
But was Monk Frost doing anything wrong according to Ron's general philosophy?


No.

It wasn’t one person it was a whole bunch of them. There was Turtle, Chops, Pete, Moonbeam, Ess, Brad oh, and that Grinch bloke to some extent, to name but a few.

The main problem with CA was the regulars, they’re the ones who continually ignored the respect and tolerance rules not the passing poster‘s like MF. We were the reason Ron closed the forum.

.
Essorant
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154 posted 04-12-2009 05:55 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Grinch

Sorry for changing my question a bit.  I completely agree with your answer though.  

Perhaps most of us in CA contributed to some bad experiences.  But at least we contributed to some good ones too.  


moonbeam
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155 posted 04-12-2009 06:14 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Ess

I agree and disagree with Grinch, no time to explain further right now.

I've already answered the question of whether MF did anything "wrong" earlier in the thread in response to exactly the same question from Grinch, I'll repeat:

"To start with I should say that I don't think that in the scale of things the Monk Frost fracas was of much account whatever.  He wasn't reason for closing of CA and a discussion about him is only useful in so far as it serves to show one small particular instance of why some sort of guidelines might be useful.  

For the record he made 21 posts to CA over a period of just under one month at a fairly regular rate.

Of those 21 posts he received replies to 18.  

Of those 18 three contained specific questions directed at MF by other posters, and one contained a direct comment from a moderator about his posting.

He did not respond to a single one of the comments or questions made about his poems.  

He made one 8 word comment on another person's poem which had absolutely nothing to do with the poem and everything to do with a rather offensive statement about the poet's state of mind, which, inter alia, was a complete, and as it happened, erroneous, guess.

What did he do wrong, and what harm did he do?

1 He spammed the forum.  The level of his posting and his non-responsive attitude eventually led a moderator to say this:

"The 3-a-day rule works pretty well in the fast moving forums. Here in CA, where the intent is to thoroughly analyze each post, it does not work at all. Even one per day is usually too much. It takes time for the group to discuss a poem. The way you are flooding the pages gives a strong impression that you are simply dumping your computer here, possibly because you don't know how to clean it up otherwise. If that's the case, learn to use the Delete button instead.

As moderator of CA, I ask you to please stop the spam. Or at lease slow down to where it might become something of value in a critical analysis environment."

2 He failed to obey a moderator's instruction, posting another poem 70 minutes after the instruction had been given, provocatively entitled "Dare" and referring to the subjectivity of people's opinions (I think).

3 He failed to thank anyone for, or respond to a single comment made on his poems.  At 3 or 4 poems that could be shyness.  At 7 or 8 poems it could mean the poet is very busy in real life, except that wasn't the case as he continued to post poems regularly.  At 9 or 10 poems one wonders what he is doing.  At 13 - 15 poems it becomes a little wearing in a discussion forum.  At 20 poems it is just rude and disrespectful.

4 He patently annoyed other posters.  You might say tough, their problem.  I say, that taken in conjunction with the mode of posting, and the period of time involved, the balance tilted from having goodwill towards him, through giving him the benefit of the doubt, to assuming that he was intent on trouble making.  At that point there was no reason to leave his poems in CA.

5 To anyone of any intellect looking in from outside at the forum his antics showed both MF and other participants in a juvenile light.  The forum would have looked as if it was neither about poetry or discussion, and it would looked unmoderated, drifting and basically an unproductive waste of time."

Anything more will have to wait till tomorrow Ess.
Grinch
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156 posted 04-12-2009 06:27 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
The way you are flooding the pages gives a strong impression that you are simply dumping your computer here, possibly because you don't know how to clean it up otherwise. If that's the case, learn to use the Delete button instead.


There you go Moon, if I was a betting man I'd lay money on that being the precise point where Ron decided to close the forum.

MF was doing nothing wrong. Once a Mod started ignoring the respect and tolerance rule and started openly condoning and emulating the actions of the rest of us Ron had little choice but to close the forum.

Just my opinion of course.

.
Essorant
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157 posted 04-12-2009 06:53 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

True, but other members get their words deleted very often, especially here in the Alley, without the forum being closed because of it.  The fact that that comment was a moderator's I think deserved at least that much grace.  Ron couldn't have just used the delete button? And considered making it openly certain to the moderators and members what exactly is appropriate in such situtations, so they wouldn't make the mistake in the future?  The fact that the moderator contributed unawares to the problem is an omen of much lack of knowing what exactly was appropriate in such situations and that it was more or less up in the air and left to "on the spot" decisions, hoping for the best, but obviously not always getting it.  

  
Grinch
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158 posted 04-12-2009 07:28 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
True, but other members get their words deleted very often, especially here in the Alley, without the forum being closed because of it.


Yet.

If the lack of respect and tolerance in this forum gets to the point that the work involved maintaining it outweighs the benefits of having it then I’m sure that this forum will disappear too.

In those last day’s of QA there was perhaps only one or two people adhering to the rules, and even one of those wasn’t exactly interacting in a positive way. The Alley, where you’d expect a high rate of heated exchanges, doesn’t even come close to matching that - yet.

Essorant
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159 posted 04-12-2009 07:55 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

How could people adhere to the rules in the specific ways of appropriateness that Ron wanted when the specific ways of appropriateness were not made clear for the kind of situations we were dealing with in CA?   It is fine to have general rules.  But when you want people to behave specifically within those general rules and in those kind of specific situations, then you also need more specific rules or clarifications in place to make it understood.  Without those things in place the members and moderators were in the same boat of much uncertainty.   No one knew for sure what the specifics of appropriatness were, but specifics were still expected.  We didn't live up to the specifics that even the moderators were not completely clear about, and now we have two less of excellent moderators, and one less forum that was important to some people.  It is hard to call that "better".
 

Grinch
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160 posted 04-12-2009 08:12 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Exercise respect and tolerance.

It seems fairly clear and simple to me Ess and, on the whole, members and moderators alike manage to maintain that standard in every other forum. Ron’s already alluded to the disproportionate amount of interventions he’s had to make in CA and on numerous occasions he’s underlined that rule of respect and tolerance and we’ve merrily ignored every warning.

Is it any wonder he decided to close the forum?

.
Essorant
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161 posted 04-12-2009 09:10 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Grinch

If we didn't understand or heed that general rule, then I don't think we would only fail to live up to it in CA, but also fail to live up to it in any other forum we posted in.  Why only or mostly only in CA?   You don't see it as anything to do with a lack of some stationary specifications or clarifications in CA itself to deal with some different and more specific situations that we had?

    
Bob K
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162 posted 04-12-2009 10:46 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Clearly the energy is back in the forum, but it's focused on the relationship that folks have with Ron and with what went wrong with CA forum.  Is Mark Frost the cause of the downfall?  Had the people in the forum been doing things badly?  Had they not understood Ron appropriately?  Was this some sort of punishment for ill behavior?

     That appears to be where the energy here is.  We try to get away from that subject — I try to draw us away, to be fair; that's the subject that people seem pretty much fascinated by — and you bring us back to it.  I'd like to understand how come this happens in a forum labeled  "Give and Get in Poetry."  I'm certain there must be a connection somewhere, but I simply don't see it, and it's beginning to fascinate me, since my interest is in "Give and Get in Poetry."  I wonder if I have to give a little so we can get back to the subject, but I guess I need to get some clarification on the way.

     What gives guys?
Essorant
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163 posted 04-13-2009 12:00 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

quote:
What gives guys?


Confusion.

moonbeam
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164 posted 04-13-2009 07:51 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
We have to talk among ourselves and see what each of us is willing to contribute and what each of us hopes to get out of such a place.  It must satisfy those of us who feel we have something to contribute, including Ron, whose contribution must return enough to him in some fashion to make the giant difficulty worth taking on.

Bob this is one of the statements you opened this thread with.  That's what's been going on.  We've been talking amongst ourselves trying to figure out what we want from such a place and how we can make it work - Ron's guidelines inevitably come into that discussion and also the question of why the other place didn't work.

Yes a bit of confusion now ensues I think perhaps because as I hinted here:
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum6/HTML/000037-6.html#125

posting your poem has kind of turned the thread into two parallel threads.  I think your poem was worth much more than getting it entangled with all the backwards and forwarding of the discussion.  Maybe it's not too late to disentangle it even now into another thread?

....................

Ess and Grinch

Sorry Grinch but I feel Ess is correct here.

First, if you are right then I think much much more respect should have been shown to a moderator of 9 years standing.  And again if you are really right about the point where the decision was made to close the forum being the point at which Pete made his (long overdue) remonstration with MF then I would be extremely disappointed in Ron.  I find it difficult to believe that is the case, and were it to be so then I think I would need to reconsider my commitment to PiP.  Sometimes I think a bit too much is made of Ron's ownership of the site and his efforts connected with it, which though considerable would be to no avail without the loyal dedication of his team of moderators.  Ron knows this and I believe gives a good deal of respect to the views of his senior moderators, I feel sure that far from closing the forum because of Pete's behaviour he would have discussed the issue with him and given a good deal of weight to his opinion.  

And once again I think you are wrong in attributing the failure of CA entirely to the actions of the regulars.   Even Ron himself has stated that a good deal of the responsibility was his.  If you mean that the actions of the regulars in the final days were the final straw which showed Ron once and for all that CA was not working then fine I will go with that.  But as for those actions being the root cause of the failure, I think, by Ron's own admission that is not the case.

A Tail

There was a pride of lions living on the Veldt.  The dominant male, the King of the lions, one day decided that, except for prey absolutely necessary for survival, the members of his pride would henceforth harm no other living creature, moreover all members were to be given equal status and each member would show great tolerance of, and patience with every other member's behaviour.

Now it so happened that the pride was divided into three cohorts.  The first of these was the largest and was a lovely place for socialising and friendship: relaxed, happy and with a rapid flow of quick fire repartee and gay chatter.  

The second cohort was a small one where lions with a fiery desire to learn the skills of crochet repaired at intervals.  In this cohort happy friendship was still the key, but lions were expected to adhere to certain rules in order that the process of learning could be conducted in an orderly way.  

The third cohort was also quite a small place.  This cohort was the forum for discussion of the ways of the lion, the various strategies for stalking and of course haute cuisine.  

Now, the new strictures of the King of the pride worked fine in the first cohort.  All was peace and light, and the occasional wayward member or buzzing insect was treated with benign tolerance or cheerful indifference.  Everyone was relaxed and unstressed, the workload was light or non-existent and life proceeded cheerily and with equanimity.  

In the second cohort the cohort leader was less happy.  Once or twice a member was overly enthusiastic and pushed forward pieces of crochet work that were nothing to do with the lesson on hand.  Moreover the constant buzzing of mosquitos was a distraction and an irritation from the work.  

The leader therefore applied to the King and said, "Oh King, mightiest of mighty lions, while we humbly acknowledge the great wisdom of your recent decree, we would refer you to Para 8 clause 4 sub-clause ii, regarding, non-harm, tolerance and respect to all living creatures.  This clause while being generally sound and principled is, in its present blanket form, preventing me from dealing firmly, yet fairly, with inside and outside distractions."

"No problemo" said the King - who btw had Roman ancestors - "we'll just addo a few little rulios to ensure that where necessary you can zappo the bugs and gently cuffo the miscreants."

Thus peace, order and learning was restored to the crochet learning cohort.

Meanwhile in the forum of the third cohort chaos reigned.  

"It's a long story," said the Top lion in the cohort, when accosted by the King about the noise.

"The thing is," continued the Top lion mournfully, "we just can't seem to function, maybe it's our fault, but all the heart has gone out of this place.  We can't seem to discuss the ways of the lion, the various strategies for stalking or even haute cuisine any more.  I'm sorry to say it O all-wise King but your all embracing rules, while good and noble, seem to me to permit behaviour in our cohort which takes our minds and efforts away from the work that we need to do to make our place work harmoniously.  For instance one or two members who have always been inclined to the frivolous, the off-the-cuff miaows and the quick whisker flicks, are apt to make light of our serious ventures, in a doubtless amusing, but sometimes tiresome manner, and in ways which lead to misunderstanding and friction O my King."

The King growled ominously, and laid a heavy soft paw, claws retracted, on his chum's shoulder, as he said, "Simply ignore them then my friendo."

Top lion looked very uncomfortable, "My King we have tried to do that, but it becomes harder and harder as the balance between those who want fun and those who want both fun and deeper study shifts in favour of the former.  You see I haven't yet mentioned the mosquitos."

"The mosquitosos?" queried the King.

"Yes, the mosquitos O King.  They buzz.  They sting.  They fly in and bite and then fly off again.  And all the while we are trying to concentrate.  Plus we have the Gaudy Eagle."

Up went the King's eye whiskers.  "The Gaudy Eagleo?"

"Oh yes my King," groaned Top lion, "He sits on a bunyan tree right in our midst and poops, over and over, it's hard to ignore him, and the smell makes our members fractious and irritable.  One particular member by the name of Boonmean has become cynical and sarcastic.  Not like his old self at all."

"Tough," said the King, "tell him to deal with it, and the others too.  They must learn to handle the troubles of life, even in the midst of adversity."

"Oh, I did that King," the Top lion said, "I did that, and now look at us, a sorry spectacle.   For rather than stay and suffer the torture of trying to work and concentrate while being pestered by mosquitos and pooped on by eagles, our best members simply left our cohort to wander the veldt.  Now we are left with just the frivolous, and the cynical Boonmean who limps on pathetically, and of course the mosquitos."

The King sighed a deep sigh, "I knew all this thinko was bad for lions," he muttered to himself, "lions are meant for lolling and lazy chat, not for deepo stuffo, this is all my doing for allowing your cohort in the first place."

"Oh no great King!" remonstrated the distraught Top lion in agony, "the idea is good, the haute cuisine is wonderful, but we need a wee bit of help to operate amicably.  Please O King in thine infinite wisdom and mercy, grant us the latitude to gently bat away the mosquitos or to at the very least wear protective insect repellant (£1.50 from M&S) to allow us to ignore them.  Furthermore empower me to gently remonstrate with those would put frivolity and naughty fun at the centre of their agenda if I feel it is a disruption to the whole cohort.  Finally let me ask the Gaudy Eagle to learn the language of Lion that he may discuss and debate with us on equal terms, and thus he may explain the where's and whyfore's of his regular poop."

"Never!" quoth the mighty monarch.  "The prideo of the prideo is paramounto; never shall I jeopardise our credo for the sake of the discussion of mere lion ways and haute cuisine.  Depart!  and continue."

So the Top lion went sadly away, and what followed is of course well known history.  The vicious Boonmean was even more cynical and sarcastic, the frivolous frivvled merrily and to the continued distraction and annoyance of some, the Gaudy Eagle pooped and the mosquitos bit, and gradually the oldest members grew worn out and disillusioned and wandered away into the veldt.  

And worse than that, other wise lions from Africa passing by on their travels looked in on the cohort and, when they might have stayed to pass the night or even longer, the biting and scratching and sheer silliness that pervaded the place, caused them to wrinkle their lips in disgust and wander away.  Thus the days and months and years wore by until one afternoon a particularly annoying super-mosquito entered the cohort.  So persistent were his attentions that even the patient old Top lion was sorely troubled.  

"Desist," he growled softly.  But the mosquito merely poked him playfully in the eye.  

SPLAT went the large furry paw of the Top lion; and the mosquito, though not clawed and therefore still unharmed, buzzed frantically.

"Enough!!" cried the aghast King seeing this, "Ah, woe is me, I see now my error, and that the wisest of my wise servants was right.  This cohort cannot run harmoniously thus constituted.  I hereby disband it.  It is perhaps not possible ever to resurrect it - time and leonine consideration is required."

And so the cohort ceased to be and the few remaining members - and there were piteously few by this time - were cast into the barren veldt.  Some blamed the King, some the Top lion, but one tenacious grouchy old lion blamed only himself and the other regular members of the cohort.  

"We were wrong," he said. "Despite the frivolous ones, the mosquitos, and the Gaudy Eagle we should have all remained sweet placid lions.  Despite the loss of our ability to think straight, and despite even the loss of the raison d'etre of the cohort, we should have tolerated, respected and purred at those mosquitos."

"But then," ventured one innocent little female lion who was a latecomer to the cohort and therefore somewhat sensible, "what would have been the point?"

"The point," ejaculated the grouchy one, "the point!  The point of course would have been to uphold the decree of our dear and infallible King!"

"Oh," said the small lion, feeling most chastised and very stupid, "of course, infallible.  Yes, I see now."
Grinch
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165 posted 04-13-2009 11:51 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Ron’s failure was not intervening and closing the place years ago.

.
rwood
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166 posted 04-13-2009 12:50 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Hey Bob.


After what’s been intimated on in this thread about CA, the posts, and the events that led to its demise, I don’t ask why.

I’ve seen Ron’s comments, over and over and over again, in Discussion about: “Focusing on the post not the poster. Direct your replies toward the topic, not the person. Personal attacks are not tolerated. Etc.”

As far as the Giving:

First person directive of language and constant over-familiarity faux pas are the first No No’s of English 101when trying to remain formal and to write effectively in any arena. Many times these things are just slips or mistakes with no harm meant at all, but many times they are exacted tactics of forum warfare. And...sometimes we’re just cool with not being on any formal terms and we’re just blowing smoke, poking the other or sharing nods with each other, usually in appropriate forums, other times not, I’m sure.

On a serious note:

Your poem “This Morning” took me to Kiawah Island, where they have some beautiful riding stables. It’s one of my favorite aways from the ways of the world. Thank you for such an offering. The language is very simple and precise, and I love the soothing stylistic sibilance with the “S’s,” which you didn’t overdo, like I just did.

Yes, soothing to the mind and silky to read aloud.

Because of your use of formal punctuation, I believe there's a coma needed at the end of L2 for proper structuring, and L10 due to the line being a positional intro, and the ending might be capped, as such:


"This Morning

A young mare, stippled
with hints of first light,
scratches a flank
against a favorite
post in her stall.
It still bears the mill
marks of raw lumber.
The ocean wind blows in
across the salt marshes.
Out of this ambiguity,
first features appear.
First sounds gather and spill. "

The “It” in L6, is sketchy due to the subject being the "mare," and it could be nixed: example:

"against a favorite
post--still bearing
the mill marks
of raw lumber in her stall."

Tiny suggestions while enjoying the little breeze you’ve offered me, Mr. Bob.


Ciao for nowz,
reg
moonbeam
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167 posted 04-13-2009 01:28 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
Ron's failure was not intervening and closing the place years ago.


Yay, we agree! Precisely Grinch.  He is just too patient and nice.
Essorant
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168 posted 04-13-2009 01:52 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

The forum was so ugly that you kept coming back to it.  I guess you just couldn't stop enjoying the lack of respect and tolerance, and secretely believing it should be closed without ever letting on to it back then.  You both had me very fooled.  There is no point if you are both willing to write off CA so easily.  Grinch already said a "no" to a new forum.  And Moonbeam, your argument seems a bit too fond of your own way.  If a new forum came about, and Monk Frost posted as he did, it sounds like either you would be unwilling to participate in the forum, or if you did participate you would still be treating Monk Frost's behaviour as if it were inappropriate or didn't belong in the forum.  The third and worst omen is that between the possibility of Ron's silence meaning he is amused and changing his mind, and meaning he is highly annoyed and even less inclined to reconsider things, I don't think we may have any doubt that it is the latter.  We failed at doing well in CA, and we fail even worse in trying to convince Ron of something new and better.  
 

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169 posted 04-13-2009 02:45 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
The forum was so ugly that you kept coming back to it


No.

I kept leaving because it was ugly, I kept coming back hoping it would get better.

quote:
I guess you just couldn't stop enjoying the lack of respect and tolerance, and secretely believing it should be closed without ever letting on to it back then


It was a pretty open secret Ess, I suggested closing the forum three years ago, Ron was against the idea at the time. The time to save CA was while it was still open, Ron gave us the chance to do that and we failed, I doubt whether Ron will re-open it so we can do the same again.

quote:
There is no point if you are both willing to write off CA so easily.


If I thought there was something I could do to convince Ron that the forum would work if it was re-opened I’d have done it already. I’m sorry it closed but I think closing it was the right decision.

Adding more rules won’t work - Ron has said on numerous occasions that he won’t add any rules above and beyond the overriding rule of respect and tolerance.

Adding notifications of acceptable behaviour won’t work because, people will simply ignore them and judging what is and isn’t acceptable is subjective and hard to define.

What could have saved CA was an injection of common sense, either applied by all members or enforced by a moderator - one who could mirror Ron’s expectations and diplomatically nudge the members in the right direction. Without that it was doomed to fail and any possible replacement is destined to go the same way.

moonbeam
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170 posted 04-13-2009 04:57 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
And Moonbeam, your argument seems a bit too fond of your own way.  If a new forum came about, and Monk Frost posted as he did, it sounds like either you would be unwilling to participate in the forum  


Dead right Ess, and simply because such a reoccurrence would be symptomatic of what Grinch says, viz, that the replacement would be going the same way as the Mk I version.

FWIW I was hardly active in CA in the last year.  

As Grinch says simply adding more rules won't work, but adding notifications of acceptable behaviour, combined with active mod presence (and I mean mods plural - at least 4 at a guess, preferably 5 or 6) and active mod liaison behind the scenes, combined with case study based agreement with Ron as to what is and isn't acceptable (reliance on the vague notion of respect and tolerance is insufficient), combined with a clear stated purpose and posting guideline, might just work.

M

PS Ess, I don't understand why you think this discussion will be angering or annoying Ron?  I certainly hope it isn't because I think it's pretty constructive.  Just a pity we couldn't have had it years ago.
Bob K
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171 posted 04-13-2009 07:54 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Reg,

          This was very helpful, very precise feedback. I must certainly use the suggestion about the comma in line two; it improves the reading and clarifies the pace.  The rewrite suggestion around the notion of the "it" is quite useful as well.  Those "its" can be very pesky and introduce ambiguities where they are unwelcome; and your comment not only spots the problem but suggests a fix.  I may use that as well.  I appreciate your engagement here.

     This sort of point of view is one that offers a great deal to the ways of looking that Moonbeam and JM bring to the party, and I'm glad that you put the time in here.  I'm hoping that you're able to take something away from what JM and Moonbeam are offering in their comments and the occasion comments on a more general level that I've tossed in here and in the Free verse exercise thread.

     Your comments about my rhetoric are also somewhat useful, though I think you are constrained by the values of politeness in this venue from being more specific about what you'd like to say.  You really should feel free to email me with more specifics, since about political stuff and political rhetoric I'm nowhere near as acute as I am in this context.  As long as what you have to say is meant to be helpful, though, I'm happy to take it in that spirit.  If it helps my political communications, I'm interested in hearing what you've got to say, though I can't promise agreement.  You won't go too far wrong if you assume the logically unlikely proposition that I am both as obtuse as I present myself as being and as bright as you think I am all at the same time, simply not in the same ways and places that logic would lead you to believe.

     Indeed, I've found that to be true about most people.  I'm simply very poor at covering the contradictions up.

     Thank you very much for you contribution and for you kind attempt to extend a hand.

Mr. Bob  
rwood
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172 posted 04-14-2009 08:41 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Dear Mr. Bob,

You’re very welcome. Poetry is my pleasure, but I struggle for quality time due to running my housekeeping business. My purest love is for English and I’ll be a forever student of the language as well as the others I find architecturally rooted and entwined in the etymology. I’ll try to offer more toward poetry & feedback, as time allows me. I know I always get something from what others put into the pot.

About effective writing:

quote:
Your comments about my rhetoric are also somewhat useful, though I think you are constrained by the values of politeness in this venue from being more specific about what you'd like to say.  You really should feel free to email me with more specifics, since about political stuff and political rhetoric I'm nowhere near as acute as I am in this context.  As long as what you have to say is meant to be helpful, though, I'm happy to take it in that spirit.  If it helps my political communications, I'm interested in hearing what you've got to say, though I can't promise agreement.  You won't go too far wrong if you assume the logically unlikely proposition that I am both as obtuse as I present myself as being and as bright as you think I am all at the same time, simply not in the same ways and places that logic would lead you to believe.


My comment was not directed toward “you,” but your reply is a great example of how things can go. I was speaking about the forums in general and how first person “YOU,” in a directive, never really gains/maintains much civil ground. The moment the word “you” is typed, it automatically becomes personal to the reader. Simple as that.  So, such a word needs to be handled with care, when trying to properly convey as a writer with respect and regards to readers. AND I think this is especially important when replying/critiquing/providing feedback on someone’s offering of poetry.

If you will be so kind to peruse my paragraph once more, you will notice there is no “you” at all, anywhere to be found.  But I did use “we’re,” which can also go awry since some people will want to be excluded from my generalized inclusion. However, the passive safety-word of “sometimes,” indicates a non-argumentative stance and my offering stands as pure rhetoric. I may still offend someone, no matter.

In your paragraph, “you” is throughout, but I don’t take offense because I know you don’t know me, nor am I trying to pick you apart. I’m addressing effective writing only.

However, you’re partly right about me here: “Your comments about my rhetoric are also somewhat useful, though I think you are constrained by the values of politeness in this venue from being more specific about what you'd like to say.”

Specifically, I’m rarely “constrained.” LOL. However, poetry does soothe me, as your poem did. But no, I generally say whatever I want to say with little constraint, which gets me into big trouble, more pointedly, in politics. I can be a barracuda with an ITCH in the middle. Yeah, go ahead. It’s already been said. I’m like a Marine who’s locked and loaded, though my pen is my weapon and my words are my bullets, and yeah, there’s no room on my page for passivity when I take an argumentative stance. I could blame that on my Professor in college, and the fact that I spent hundreds of hours editing passivity out of argumentative papers as an English tutor/editor-turned machine. I know. I need to lighten-up, and it’s easy for me to do so with poetry, but politics…..rile me, and that makes or breaks me as an effective writer for the genre.

May I say:  We all learn something new everyday?

It’s fun to learn together.

I gotta run, but if you like I’ll address over-familiarity another time if you need examples or need more input, and I’ll take a gander at the Free verse thread asap.


salut,
reg
Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


173 posted 04-15-2009 11:41 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Has everybody gotten what they need from this thread about getting and giving in poetry?  

     If they have, is there anything that they would like to give a try to in response to what they've spoken about here, or do we simply let things peter out?  Either result would be interesting after its fashion, as the discussion has, so far, proven interesting.  

     We might also try somebody else tossing in a poem and seeing if the rest of us might be helpful to them with that poem.  My preference would be for free verse, since folks do metrical verse other places, but I'm open in that regard as well.  The rules would have to be rules that would emphasize use of comments intended to be helpful to the poems and to the development of folks writing skills.  We couldn't handle a lot of poems at a time and still give the kind of feedback that we'd need to develop proper feedback skills, which would mean development of our own free verse revision skills.  I'd like to use examples of everybody's work, should they want that, but the emphasis is on the feedback and understanding each other's feedback.

     That's my thinking at this point.  If anybody's interested, we could start.  If nobody's interested, there's no reason to, it seems pretty straightforward.  If anybody gives us too much trouble, we'll stop or ask them to stop or change their ways.

     Any thoughts or reactions?
moonbeam
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174 posted 04-15-2009 05:09 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

As long as you're around Bob I'm happy to post poems here .  I might just complete my obligations to you and Jennifer in the other thread first though, and meanwhile give someone else a chance to post something.
 
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