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Passions in Poetry

Give And Get in Poetry

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moonbeam
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100 posted 04-02-2009 04:19 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Bob

The appeal for you is a space.  A place where you can pursue what you like to do, and want to do (within the PiP philosophy) harmoniously and with other likeminded people without fear of ridicule, belittlement or unsupported, illogical attacks.

That maybe the goal.  How we get there is clearly not at all certain yet.  Even if a group of people eventually agree on what needs to be done, we then have to find the man/woman power willing to implement and maintain it and then on top of all that we have to convince Ron.  Quite a mountain yet to climb.

It's fun climbing.  
Bob K
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101 posted 04-03-2009 08:49 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




Okay, so let's try talking about getting, then.  Is there something that folks would be interesting in getting that they didn't get in the old Critical Analysis setting?

     About this, we do have some fairly clear information from Ron about what he was able to give and what he could and couldn't do that might be some sort of help.  Or at this point in the discussion, I don't know if Ron wants to bring himself in or stay out of things or not.  

     At any rate, what do the rest of you hope to get from something.  I'd like to have a discussion of the hows and wherefores of free verse, with a bit more openness to feedback on the material, so long as it's clear and presented in a useful fashion.

     Other folks?  
Essorant
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102 posted 04-03-2009 11:42 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I don't think there was anything people didn't get in the Critical Analysis forum.  Poetry, critical discussion, debate, teaching, preaching, pokes, pinches, word-attacks.  For well and ill, it was all there              

quote:
At any rate, what do the rest of you hope to get from something.


I hope for a Critical Analysis forum here at Passions.  One where the expectations of the site for the forum are made very clear and perhaps upholden a bit more strictly, thus preventing members from making the same mistake as before or at least stopping it from going so far that it gets the forum closed.
quote:
...so long as it's clear and presented in a useful fashion.


Bob,  That will get us in trouble again.  We can't dictate certain levels of clarity and presentation for the forum.  Express what we believe, debate something critically and respectfully, indeed, but not dictate and limit the forum to a standard of style.  


[This message has been edited by Essorant (04-04-2009 01:10 AM).]

Grinch
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103 posted 04-04-2009 05:02 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
I don't think there was anything people didn't get in the Critical Analysis forum.


Respect and tolerance?

.
Essorant
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104 posted 04-04-2009 05:05 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Grinch

If that were true the forum hadn't lasted for almost a decade.  The problem I think was not the absense of respect and tolerance, but the breaches and lack of clearness about how to maintain them enough and in a way that lived up to the appropriateness that Ron and the site expected for the forum.

I know your posts in CA were respectful and tolerant.
 
Grinch
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105 posted 04-04-2009 05:40 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
The problem I think was not the absense of respect and tolerance


Weíll have to agree to disagree then Ess because Iím convinced that the constant lack of respect and tolerance offered to the people using that forum is the main reason that the forum was closed.

Essorant
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106 posted 04-04-2009 06:16 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

But you seemed to change the subject a bit Grinch.  We were talking about the forum as a whole, rather than just the negative moments.  I agree that Ron closed it for the lack of respect at certain moments, but not because the forum overall had no respect and tolerance.  Go look and remind yourself of the history of members' participation in the forum, and then come back to answer this: was not the majority of participation still generally respectful and tolerant?


Grinch
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107 posted 04-04-2009 06:31 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Wrong question Ess, it implies that a lack of respect and tolerance is acceptable to some degree, it isnĎt. There was either a lack of respect and tolerance in the forum or there wasnít.

There clearly was a sufficient lack for Ron to close CA, you admit it yourself..

quote:
I agree that Ron closed it for the lack of respect at certain moments


.
moonbeam
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108 posted 04-05-2009 04:42 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Grinch you are stating the symptom again without reference back to the cause of the sympton.  Ess, I think, was on the right lines here.

Saying: "CA was closed because of lack of R&T" is like saying "the dog was shot because he was foaming at the mouth". You see something that is bad so you shoot it.  That may be quite justifiable if the risk is that it might infect the whole town (forum).  But the autospy then seeks to discover what it was that caused the foam.  Perhaps it was rabies, but perhaps the dog just ate some catnip.  

You may well be right.  Lack of R&T may have been a factor in the closure of CA.  But look at the Alley.  Lack of R&T in many threads but no closure; degree and frequency are very relevant.

But above all it's no good harping on about the fact that there was a lack of R&T, that's a dead end. What you have to address is why.  

Did the conditions in CA make a lack of R&T more likely than elsewhere in PiP?  

And the answer to that imo, as I've said ad nauseam, is "yes".

You've suggested an ignore button to help ameliorate those aggravating conditions, and I think that's a step in the right direction   .

M
Essorant
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109 posted 04-05-2009 10:53 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

quote:
Wrong question Ess,


I don't think it is wrong or irrelevent here Grinch because you suggested people didn't "get" respect and tolerance in CA.  My point or implication by asking you "was not the majority of participation still respectful and tolerant?" was to point out that I think people did get respect and tolerance, most of the time, and if you look at the evidence of the history of participation you shall see that, despite whatever examples of disrespect and tolerance that also showed up at certain times.  The disrespect for which Ron closed the forum is still an example of an exception of behaviour in CA not a "rule" and the majority.  


quote:
There clearly was a sufficient lack for Ron to close CA, you admit it yourself..


Yes, but there is even more than a sufficient reason for Ron not to close CA.  The first is the history of CA, which established CA and showed that Critical Analysis overall is important to the site and people here and does offer room to very worthwhile activity .  The second is that the problem is very limited and may be dealt with within the CA forum itself, without needing to change anything in the other forums.  It is a very limited.  The third is dealing with the problem may actually be easier than it seems, for we generally know what the problem is.  All there needs to be is a willingness to make adjustments in the forum itself to deal better with the problem.

quote:
Lack of R&T in many threads but no closure; degree and frequency are very relevant.
...
Did the conditions in CA make a lack of R&T more likely than elsewhere in PiP?  

And the answer to that imo, as I've said ad nauseam, is "yes".




I very much agree with that.


  
Grinch
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110 posted 04-05-2009 11:44 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
I think people did get respect and tolerance, most of the time


ďMost of the timeĒ doesnít cut it Ess if the rule is total respect and tolerance. By that measure the contributors fell far short of the target.

.
moonbeam
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111 posted 04-05-2009 04:37 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

I don't see the point you are making Grinch, no-one is denying that R&T weren't shown.  Are you saying that because the rule is total R&T, just one instance of lack of R&T justifies closure?
Grinch
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112 posted 04-05-2009 05:01 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


No Moon, Iím saying that I believe that the forum was closed because of a lack of R&T by the contributors, and that my opinion is that it was probably the ONLY reason it was closed. Iím also saying that I think this statement by Ess isnít correct.

quote:
The problem I think was not the absense of respect and tolerance


My view is that the absence of R&T is precisely the reason the forum was closed and unless you address that you havenít got a feline in hades chance of convincing anyone that itís worthwhile giving it another go.

Ignoring the lack of R&T is how we got here in the first place, it seems silly to do the same thing twice.

Essorant
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113 posted 04-05-2009 07:56 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Grinch


Remember your original comment to me was toward my statement about thinking members got just about everything in CA, good things and bad.  In comment 103 you suggested that they didn't get respect and tolerance.  That is the context I am speaking in here. I am arguing against stereotyping CA wholesale as if it had no respect and tolerance at all.  I am not saying the certain moments of lack of respect and misbehaviour are not what moved Ron to close the forum, I am just saying that those events are far from being the "all" or even the majority of the participation in the forum, therefore it is wrong to stereotype the forum as a whole and say it didn't have respect and tolerance.  

Essorant
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114 posted 04-05-2009 08:45 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I don't think total respect and tolerance are the goal.  No forum could live up to that.
Bob K
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115 posted 04-05-2009 08:49 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Step back. Take a deep breath.  Inhale ó yes, that's ri-i-i-i-ight, a nice long inhale.  And now ex-hale.  That's it.

     Respect & tolerance are swell things.  There was lots shown by everybody, simply not enough.  I think I have that right.  And there wasn't enough supervisory time to put into the matter to correct the problem.  Everybody's been very nice, but nobody's said how they're going to take over the time that Ron and the other moderators have had to put into the thing to make it run with some degree of tact and respect.  

     Not only does this have to make me happy, and Grinch happy and Essorant happy, but it also has to make Ron and the moderators happy, and I haven't seen much understanding of what it is that they do in this context and the time and effort that it takes to do it.  

     Maybe I'm overestimating this, it's possible, but if it were a snap, I suspect that the forum would still be puttering along.  I haven't understood from Essorant what happens  to take the work off of Ron and the moderators to maintain their notion of quality control and general comity.  It has to be concrete enough to make them want to leap up and say, Yeah!  Wish I'd thought of that.  Sure that'll work!

     Otherwise I suspect they know it's more of the same.

     What's in it for them?  

     What reduces the amount of work reliably from x hours a week to x minus ten hours a week?  How can you demonstrate that?  What's your business plan, so they can go ahead and put work hours from CA to someplace else without having to drag them back to CA at some later date?  It's not a matter of being GOOD or reforming, it's a matter of concrete planning that actually brings in Ron and the other moderators.  It can't cajole them.  They have to feel like it's to their advantage to come on board.

     They need to feel that they're actually getting something because it's true in their terms, not simply your terms, Essorant.  Your terms are fine so far as they go, but they don't appear to be drawing any sort of enthusiastic response or agreement, which is the minimum of what you need here.  I think.

     Thoughts?

     I'm trying to put this in terms of giving and getting to keep with the theme of the thread, but also because I happen to believe that it actually works better that way.  
Essorant
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116 posted 04-06-2009 03:46 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Bob

Here are some practical points that I put forth for consideration.  I hope others may share their thoughts and help improve them as a proposal for the forum.  



1.  Moderators: Pete & Brad (if they are still willing) and anyone else that might be brave and willing enough to be a moderator.  Some Deputy/Volunteer Moderators if possible.  The more moderators there are in CA, I think the less work for Ron or for any individual moderator.  But all the moderators in CA need to be agreed about what kind of level of appropriateness should be maintained, that is why I recommend number 2, a writ about conduct and appropriatness in CA".

2. A writ about the level of appropriateness that belongs in CA.  This could be a concise set of general points  to try to clarify the appropriateness that belongs or is expected in Critical Analysis, listed as easily to understand as possible, somewhat like the highlighted rules we see when we join the site.  But unlike the rules, these would be present on the reply page, to make them as emphatically present as possile, to be kept in mind when responding to someone in CA.  Certainty and emphasis about what appropriateness is expected by means of such a writ would lessen the load for Ron and moderators, for more people would be aware through the writ, and less people need the rules reiterated by the moderators.

3. Name change.   I still prefer "Critical Analysis" but others expressed enough concern about changing the name that it deserves to be included for consideration.  A name I suggest might be something such as "Interpretations", something very open and without negative connotations.  

Any thoughts?

moonbeam
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117 posted 04-06-2009 04:18 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

I think Ess's suggestions would go a long way towards addressing the underlying problem that caused the lack of respect and tolerance.  

I'd combine it with Grinch's suggestion for an ignore button.  

I'd expand the forum to include all sorts of poetry discussion, not just the posting of poems.  

I'd also make it a prerequisite of the opening of any new forum that for a period of a few days/weeks the proposed moderators and quasi-mods had a collective e-mail dialogue (including/copied to Ron) to establish precisely the ground rules for dealing with "difficult" posts and to also establish what constitutes a difficult post.

Essorant
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118 posted 04-06-2009 04:25 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Those are very worthy additions Moonbeam.  
Balladeer
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119 posted 04-06-2009 08:56 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Moderators: Pete & Brad (if they are still willing) and anyone else that might be brave and willing enough to be a moderator.

Interesting and telling statement....bravery would be a requirement...why?
Essorant
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120 posted 04-06-2009 08:50 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Balladeer

I wasn't suggesting bravery as a manmade requirement, but as something naturally shown when taking on something such as a commitment.



Essorant
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121 posted 04-07-2009 12:08 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I think Pete, Brad and Grinch would make a great triumvirate to moderate the forum.  
Bob K
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122 posted 04-07-2009 06:16 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I don't think bravery is a requirement.

     I do see enthusiasm as a requirement.

    
quote:

I think Pete, Brad and Grinch would make a great triumvirate to moderate the forum.  



    
     I don't see any of the three nominees enthused and leaping to their feet.  I don't hear any acclamation sweeping the proposal into existence.  I hear the proposal being swept out to sea on a wave of lethargy.  I suspect this is because there's no market for it, and the people who would have to do the work see no reward for themselves in doing the amount of work required; whatever that amount may actually be, it appears to feel unrewarding, and these are the people who should above all need to feel excited if such a proposal is going to carry.
Balladeer
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123 posted 04-07-2009 06:25 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I don't hear any acclamation sweeping the proposal into existence.

You're missing a point, Bob. Acclamations don't matter and there is no "sweeping into existence". Ron axed the forum. His is the only decision that counts and I haven't seen him state anywhere that any acclamations forthcoming would change that decision, regardless of the amount of conversation.
Bob K
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124 posted 04-07-2009 06:39 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I'll tell you what, Folks.  I feel the energy going out of this thread, so I think I'll try something to kick start it.  

     Everybody's got different proposals for what's right an what's wrong, what we need to give and what we need to get, and we're all dying of abstraction here.  I have an old poem that I've been working on that I've reached a dead end on.  I don't believe it's going to get to the point where I'll ever try to publish it in one of the big-shot magazines, and I'm more interested in what we can all learn from kicking it around and playing with it.  I will give the poem.

     I'll give you the text to play with and we can all try out our various approaches on kicking the thing around and revising it into something that might be workable.  As long as everybody makes a point of being polite to each other, there's no need as far as I'm concerned to be polite to the poem.  Try to confine yourselves to remarks that you think will improve the thing, and make it more publishable.  Try to learn from what other people say, try out saying things to see how you look in them, like a new set of clothes.  Have fun.  I'll do the same.

Here's the text:


This Morning


A young mare, stippled
with hints of first light
scratches a flank
against a favorite
post in her stall.
It still bears the mill
marks of raw lumber.
The ocean wind blows in
across the salt marshes.
Out of this ambiguity
first features appear,
first sounds gather and spill.


     Why not experiment and see what you can give to and get from this one?

 
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