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How Now, Down Dow?

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Denise
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100 posted 03-27-2009 03:38 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

But did anyone in the government, whether it was someone in Congress or someone in the Executive Branch, have the right to release the names and home addresses to the SEIU for the purpose of facilitating protests?
Grinch
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101 posted 03-27-2009 03:56 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


I've no idea Denise - Probably disgruntled workers leaked the handful of details that got out.

I did read this while searching - I didn't notice any pitchforks or torches mentioned - seemed quite peaceful as protests go.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/22/nyregion/22working.html
Balladeer
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102 posted 03-27-2009 07:16 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ok, Ron, I'll try it one more time, not that I think it will do any good. Without the bonuses, there would be no protests, therefore the bonuses are the issue. You have two participants...

(1) The congress, who approved the bonuses
(2) The employees who received them.

Where do the protests belong? I say the congress, which you refuse to answer. If you want to say both, I give it to you but you appear to say #2, which makes no sense to me at all. If you were to say #1, which is the logical response, then the demonstrations against #2 and not #1 make no sense.

Ok, I'm done.....
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103 posted 03-27-2009 07:39 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


I wouldn’t go for either Mike, the bonuses were pre-arranged and mostly went to people who played no part in the problems that AIG got itself into.

I think Ron’s point though is that if you demand the right to protest when and where you want protest you can’t demand that the same right is taken away from everyone else - you either allow the freedom to peacefully protest or you don’t. It’s not about the issue it’s about whether people should have the freedom to peacefully protest regardless of how wrong you think they may be.

Like I said, personally I wouldn’t be picketing either of your proposed targets but if anyone wants to protest against either they should feel free to do so.

Ron
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104 posted 03-27-2009 07:45 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Mike, my point is that YOU don't get to say where or how someone else protests, not so long as they're assembling legally.

I won't pick your number one or two, because in my opinion neither is justified.

My understanding, which is sorely limited, is that the bonuses were contractual obligations. Where I come from, when you say you're going to do something, you do it. Our government has a nasty habit of signing contracts (and treaties), and then changing their minds later. Go ask an Indian. Now, the government apparently wants to force American business to operate under the same "flexible" guidelines? The time to protest a contract (or treaty) is before it's signed, not after.

Nonetheless . . . how I feel about the issue shouldn't prevent you from protesting against Congress for giving AIG the money to pay the bonuses. Just as your feelings about the issue shouldn't prevent ACORN or anyone else from protesting against the executives taking the bonuses. We're all allowed to disagree. What we're NOT allowed to do is try to silence each other.

I'm just saying.


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105 posted 03-27-2009 07:54 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yep, I understand, Grinch. I guess it just irks me that this situation was instigated by Obama with his "The public should be angry - I'm angry" comments, then carried out by his cronies at ACORN and MoveOn.Org, all over an action which Congress approved....and they all get a free pass while the families of ordinary people get the brunt of it. I find the entire scenario offensive. Obama was angry....fine. Did anyone even ask him why he wasn't mad at Congress for approving it? I haven't seen that anywhere. It's all ridiculous.

Switch political parties and I think the comments here would have been quite different.
Grinch
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106 posted 03-27-2009 08:23 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


It irks me too Mike.

The biggest irk being that the whole issue regarding the bonuses is essentially a none issue blown out of all proportion.

The media cried foul, the Republican’s raised a torch and pointed the finger at the Administration and the Democrats picked up a pitchfork and followed the crowd. Given time hopefully they’ll all wander back into town and get back to the job of fixing up the store.

Bob K
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107 posted 03-27-2009 09:11 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike And Tim,

                    Very fast to blame and take sides, very slow to look at whatever information is coming in.  Almost everybody.  I include myself here.  I'm fairly sure that you, Mike, were in a sizzling fury about any sort of bail out bill at all when it came up last Fall, weren't you, and you were willing to let everybody go down in flames.    I thought and said that you were too quick off the blocks then.  There really are some things that are too important to allow to fail if anything can be done to prevent the failure.  Like the campfire in lion country, I suppose.

     I am not happy with AIG, but I have no idea how much of their outcome  came from which decisions.  Nor do I know what the bonuses that were paid out were actually for.  For all I know, they may have been for making sure that key parts of the business didn't go entirely down the tubes when they were at risk for doing so.  That's entirely possible.  And it's unlikely we're going to find out until some sort of investigation is allowed and completed.  I do know, however, that Mike's Hyperbole was hyperbole indeed, and that he hasn't come up with any news stories documenting pitchforks and torches.  If there were death threats, I am very sorry.  I think that they were not only illegal but that they were immoral and stupid as well.  However equating The President saying he was mad with other people making death threats is a leap in not only degree but in kind.  That is, Anger does not equal murderous rage; and verbal acknowledgement of anger in reasonable discourse does not equal making the threat of death, which as I understand it is, in itself, an assault misdemeanor in many states.  Different in both kind and degree.  Confusing them doesn't serve to further truth or understanding, only chaos and confusion.

     Give me information about Move-on and I will give you a more considered reaction.  Telling me that I'm too smart not to agree with you suggests that you believe I'm perhaps too vain to overlook an appeal to my intellect.  Alas, Mike, I'm bright enough to know how stupid I'm capable of being as well.  Would that you were right.

     Of course congress approved of the bail out.  Weren't you one of the people who was making fun of the democratic representative to was saying he didn't want to be rushed, and wanted more time to look at the bill?  And said that the administration wasn't exerting any pressure, even though the guy was complaining of it at the time?

     Not that this lets the Democrats off the hook, Mike; it doesn't.  By the congress and the administration was handed a very hot potato by the last folks in power — Wasn't that Carter?  I think you said it was Carter somewhere.  Or maybe Clinton.  Yeah, that's right, Hillary Clinton was that President's name, wasn't it?

     I think we all need to keep our eyes on the ball here, Mike.  We are in a mess.  We've tried supply side economics to try to deal with it, and that doesn't seem to work.  Some variation of it might, Mike, I don't know, I'm not an economist, but from what I've seen it doesn't look good that way.  It looks like the last administration . . . well, it's probably better if I don't go there right now.

     If we don't work together on this, it's more than twice as hard.  I still say Obama is Republican lite, because he doesn't seem to be working at any particularly left wing solutions to any of this, but he does seem to be giving things a shot.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
rwood
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108 posted 03-31-2009 08:29 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Well gun sales are up, as usual, for fear of further restriction. Ammo prices have gotten ridiculous. Nothing really unusual there, but Russia is investing in our engineering savvy, on our soil!!! Should produce several new jobs in the area.

Many things are still moving.

The Dow ain't dead yet, even while bloody red.  

People are still living a bit high on the hogola. Cruises, holiday packages, expensive home renos, swanky new swimming pools, etc.

I'm seeing that, though I'm also seeing many take pay cuts, layoffs, job loss, home loss, and college/retirement funds are now dust.

I think it's a matter of who had what where and for how long when the money train derailed.

Oh, and why is Congress allowed to tax AIG's bonuses 90% for sucking when they suck 100%?



  
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109 posted 03-31-2009 08:39 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You got that right, regina! They should tax congress 100% of their salary..

What about the fellow who got millions in bonuses for his spectacular work with fannie Mae? Of course that won't come up because it's Barney's friend....
Bob K
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110 posted 04-01-2009 02:33 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Bob K
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111 posted 04-01-2009 02:51 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

           Please be specific about bonuses and "Barney's friend."  Do you mean Elaine Noble or somebody else?  And since when is being a friend of Barney Frank a bad thing; and why?  Having lived cheek by jowl with his district for a while in Massachusetts, I can tell you that he was well thought of and highly respected and that there were more than enough folks there who were proud to be thought of as friends of Barney Frank to have elected the man.  I would be happy to be thought of as a friend of his; as I would be happy to be thought of as a friend of Ted Kennedy, whom I voted for every time I had a chance as well.  Both men were/are fine representatives for their constituencies.

     If you have any specific things you wish to criticize them of, we can discuss those, should you wish.  The way you state things here, however, sounds like a generalized smear without specific grounds, guilt by some sort of distant association.  If this is not what you intend, specifics would go a long way in clearing this misunderstanding up.  Should this in fact be your intention, then I find myself at a loss. . . .

Sincerely, Bob Kaven


Dear rwood,

quote:

People are still living a bit high on the hogola. Cruises, holiday packages, expensive home renos, swanky new swimming pools, etc.



     I'm sure there must be, but who are they and what's the point you're making here by bringing them up?  Am I supposed to be be furious or envious?  Okay.  But I'm unclear how that helps me beyond making me feel small and bitter and wretched, which doesn't feel very good at all.

     I think the Democrats are having a tough time getting anything through congress and getting any cooperation now.  I don't want to feel mean and angry at them; they're doing the best they can.

     The Republicans have been bamboozled by the very far right for quite a few years, and I don't want to blame them.  They're still trying to figure out which way is up after having been taking for a one-way-ride by the neo-cons for quite a long time; and they're still trying to get a grip on how to include something closer to the center into the middle of what has been and should be again a very fine group of folks.

     Surely there ought to be a way that we can all try to find some common language that allows us to talk with each other instead of at each other.  There ought to be some point where we can all say, I don't care who's to blame; what about we try to figure out what the issues are in language we can all agree on (instead of polarizing language) and try to come up with solutions that require each of us to do something first, without waiting for the other guy to take blame or responsibility or first action.

     If we wait for the other guy, the situation is out of our control.  If we take some sort of constructive action, then we are in control and we can affect things on our own.  If the other guy wants to join in, then so much the better.

     At least this way we can break the stalemate, and get some sort of movement back into the economy and the country as a whole.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
rwood
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112 posted 04-01-2009 11:24 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

quote:
I'm sure there must be, but who are they and what's the point you're making here by bringing them up?  Am I supposed to be be furious or envious?  Okay.  But I'm unclear how that helps me beyond making me feel small and bitter and wretched, which doesn't feel very good at all.


I pointed out that there are many people still living it up, even though the Dow is down. My statement is not out of context and such is a completely factual argumentative stance against our current economy being likened to the Great Depression—I’ve not seen anyone making their clothing from flour sacks, watering the milk to stay alive, and trading crop goods and livestock for medicine and tools, yet.

Who are these fortunate people I mentioned? The millions who still have great job security, capital gains and any kind of investments that are still worth something. I work for several of these people. Or they could simply be people like me who are still able to eat and afford decent shelter and clothing. I can’t add an Olympic sized swimming pool to my property or park a 4th Lexus in a 5 car garage. I don’t even have a garage. But it doesn’t take much to make me happy. I like simple. Round here? I can ride my 1979 tractor mower down the road for fun. It still works like a prized plow mule.

Surely, no, Bob? Wrath and envy are up there on the 7 deadly list. And I trust you do not feel “small, bitter, and wretched” in light of those that are maintaining whatever quality standard of living they can. Defining quality is: each to his own. Even my online activity I count as a luxury. Our sharing, in itself, is a blessing in that our messages are not delivered via the hands of a 12 year old child who was sent out from the family to work and fend for his self, as many were during the Great Depression, including my Grandpapa who slept in barns and made his own way from the age of 13. If he were still living, he’d rectify the comparison with a truth that would slap the fiction clear out of people’s minds.

The Dow is down but I don’t believe it’s out.  I’ve lost 40%+ of my retirement and there was little there to start with. Obviously, I’m not ready to lie down and die over it. My kids will be extremely lucky there’s anything left to split if I do.

quote:
I think the Democrats are having a tough time getting anything through congress and getting any cooperation now.  I don't want to feel mean and angry at them; they're doing the best they can.


They are??

I’d like to be too anointed to be disappointed, but the truth is its own language and it’s become foreign to most. Sorry, Bob. I shall not go quietly into the night or this drizzly day with passive language about the snafu BOTH parties are now at banquet with.

Congress can’t cooperate. They’re as snaf’d as the fu for what to do and still, somehow, justify their own wages. They are the biggest corporate letdown to our country. They should change the two houses’ titles to the Senseless and the House of Flatulence. Ok, that was mean, but my question is still valid: “Why is Congress allowed to tax AIG's bonuses 90% for sucking when they suck 100%?” BY their own assessment!! Productivity! They make their own rules and don’t play by them.

AND: Did you know that the Dems are levying to double-dip the fortunately unfortunate with the reinstatement of an Inheritance Tax, which would have been phased out by 2010? And did you know that the very act of the Dems repealing the enforcement of the Death Tax COSTS US $71.6 billion a year??? Linkage

Is that the best they can do? To cost us more billions while levying to bilk the well-to-do, if they are still well-to-do after the Dems also get done with raising Corporate taxes and enforcing a Maximum Wage, too?

If the Dems had their way they’d tax Christianity due to believers inheriting the Kingdom of God. If you believe in reincarnation, they’d tax each of your prospective lives with penalties for any record of bad karma and base it upon future projections.

The Reps would veto every effort except for a blank-check stimulus they could hand to the Four Horsemen to cover their asses during the apocalypse.

Neither party represents our country to the best of their ability and congress is just a mirror image of itself in, yet another, 20 years: Decrepit and in need of a full body political lipo-lift.

quote:
At least this way we can break the stalemate, and get some sort of movement back into the economy and the country as a whole.


That would be sublime. Except the situation has been reeling out of control for years, Sir. Not just the last eight, either. At this point, a fair and dignified game of chess seems impossible when the board is flimsy, and both parties are first inclined to cheat the other while all the pieces we represent end up socialized.
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113 posted 04-01-2009 12:45 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Surely you jest, Bob! Are we speaking of the same Barney Frank who, when told in 2004 that Fannie Mae had problems, screamed that it was all a right-wing smear and that fannie was alive and well? That Barney? If you doubt that, you can find the actual videos on youtube...

Barney Frank cares about Barney Frank...period. He is a detriment to the country. If you would be proud to be his friend, that's up to you.


btw, if the Democrats are doing the best they can do, God help us if they ever do the worst they can do
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114 posted 04-01-2009 01:16 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Four Fannie Mae execs to get big bonuses

updated 1:00 a.m. EDT, Thu March 19, 2009

NEW YORK (CNN) -- Troubled mortgage giant Fannie Mae planned to pay four top executives retention bonuses ranging from $470,000 to $611,000, according to a February SEC filing.

Executive vice presidents Kenneth Bacon, David Hisey, Michael Williams and Thomas Lund will be receiving bonuses of close to half a million dollars each. Bacon supervises community development for the company, Hisey is its deputy chief financial officer, Williams is its COO and Lund oversees the single-family mortgage business.

On Tuesday, two key senators announced a plan to impose a hefty tax on retention bonuses paid to executives of companies that received federal bailout money or in which the United States has at least a 50 percent equity interest -- including Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and AIG.
"Millions of Americans are losing their jobs. Millions. And to some degree they're losing their jobs because of actions taken by some of these firms," said Sen. Max Baucus, a Montana Democrat and Senate Finance Committee chairman.
"At the same time, they're giving themselves bonuses. I mean, give me a break. What are these people thinking? That's part of the problem. They're not thinking."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/19/fannie.bonuses/
Opinion, Bob?
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115 posted 04-01-2009 01:35 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

OFHEO Wants Fannie Mae Bonus Money Returned http://www.mortgagenewsdaily.com/6152006_Fannie_Mae_Bonuses.asp


Remember Franklin Raines? In December 2004 he and Timothy Howard were very much in the news as they "retired" or "resigned" or were fired, depending on which version one was reading as CEO and CFO of Fannie Mae. Their sudden unemployment followed probes, lawsuits, and audits that revealed that Fannie Mae had cooked the books over a three year period of time in such a way as to "smooth" income and expenses. One reason suspected at that time was to ensure that the Corporation's net income every year was sufficient to match the benchmarks necessary to trigger large performance bonuses to its executives.

On the way out the door, Raines and Howard collected severance packages that turned more than a few heads. At that time it was reported here that Raines would receive pension payments of $114,393 per month for the rest of his and his surviving spouse's life and Howard would receive $36,071. In addition, both men were to receive lifetime medical and dental coverage for themselves, their wives, and any dependents under age 21 and corporation paid premiums on substantial life insurance policies. Mr. Raines' medical insurance premiums were to be paid; while Mr. Howard was to pay at the reduced rates provided to all retirees.

The report stated that Raines had earned more than $52 million in performance and other bonuses from 1998 through 2003. This was in addition to some $38 million in salaries and other compensation. Now the acting director of OHEO has made it clear that Fannie Mae had better act to retrieve some of that bonus money from Raines and others or the federal government will do it for them.

Current Fannie Mae CEO Daniel Mudd is among other officers whose compensation during the questionable period is also being reviewed. He earned a total of over $26 million from 2000 to 2003.


Not bad, huh, Bob? 26 million for taking Fannie down the tubes....nice  work if you can get it...
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116 posted 04-01-2009 01:41 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Fannie Mae to Withhold Bonus Pay for 46

    By BLOOMBERG NEWS
Published: February 21, 2007

Fannie Mae, the largest United States mortgage finance company, will withhold $44.4 million in long-term incentive pay to former and current executives, including its chief executive, Daniel H. Mudd, the company said yesterday.

After reviewing three-year periods ended in 2003 and 2004, the company, which is government-chartered, said it would deny the bonuses to 46 former and current executives, a Fannie Mae spokeswoman, Janis Smith, said after the company submitted a federal filing.

In December, Fannie Mae said it overstated earnings from 2001 until mid-2004 by $6.3 billion. Mr. Mudd, who has been with Fannie Mae since 2000, will not receive $4 million in pay from that period because of the inflated performance. The chief business officer, Robert J. Levin, will be denied $2 million, and the chief operating officer, Michael J. Williams, will not get $1.85 million.

Franklin D. Raines, the former chief executive who was ousted in 2004 because of the accounting mistakes, will be denied $11.2 million, Fannie Mae said. The company will also keep $3.37 million from a former chief financial officer, J. Timothy Howard, and $370,000 from a former controller, Leanne G. Spencer.

“The board concluded that the then-management team did not meet the prescribed performance standards,” the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight said in a statement. The decision “was not directed at any specific individual.”

Ofheo is Fannie Mae’s regulator and has the authority to review the company’s compensation practices.

Fannie Mae’s board will determine bonuses for periods ended in 2005 and 2006 after the company has completed its financial reports for those years, Ofheo said. Fannie Mae, which has not kept up with timely reporting since 2004, has said it will provide results for 2005 and 2006 by the end of December.

The board decided not to award the pay after a “review of qualitative and quantitative analyses of company performance,” Fannie Mae said in a Securities and Exchange Commission filing.

Fannie Mae ousted Mr. Raines and Mr. Howard in December 2004, shortly after Ofheo said that executives used improper “cookie jar” reserves and deferred expenses to smooth earnings and reach targets for executive bonuses.


Interesting, no?  The February SEC filings granted bonuses to Fanni execs and look what happened in the pre-Obama days of 2007, that was apparently overturned.
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117 posted 04-01-2009 01:50 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ah, yes, friend Barney..

Frank's fingerprints are all over the financial fiasco
By Jeff Jacoby
Globe Columnist / September 28, 2008 http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/09/28/franks_fingerprints_are_all_over_the_financial_fiasco/

Frank doesn't. But his fingerprints are all over this fiasco. Time and time again, Frank insisted that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were in good shape. Five years ago, for example, when the Bush administration proposed much tighter regulation of the two companies, Frank was adamant that "these two entities, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, are not facing any kind of financial crisis." When the White House warned of "systemic risk for our financial system" unless the mortgage giants were curbed, Frank complained that the administration was more concerned about financial safety than about housing.

Now that the bubble has burst and the "systemic risk" is apparent to all, Frank blithely declares: "The private sector got us into this mess." Well, give the congressman points for gall. Wall Street and private lenders have plenty to answer for, but it was Washington and the political class that derailed this train. If Frank is looking for a culprit to blame, he can find one suspect in the nearest mirror.
Stephanos
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118 posted 04-01-2009 03:36 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Economic Stimulus plans aside, isn't it true that Obama's total spending exceeds that of the Bush Administration ... even when projected over the next 8 years?

Stephen

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119 posted 04-01-2009 03:54 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

quote:


You got that right, regina! They should tax congress 100% of their salary..

What about the fellow who got millions in bonuses for his spectacular work with fannie Mae? Of course that won't come up because it's Barney's friend....




     As you'll note when you check, my question was"Please be specific about bonuses and "Barney's friend."  Do you mean Elaine Noble or somebody else? "  You were kind enough to offer the names of four executives getting bonuses, which I do appreciate, but no explanation of who "Barney's Friend" might be.  "The Fellow" that you originally mentioned in the original posting has apparently grown to four, so I have some uncertainty as to whether you are talking about the same situation or not.

     I am also uncertain why you find the situation with AIG bonuses to be a matter that you take issue with (you may recall that I expressed concern about not having enough information to condemn the AIG executives on accepting bonuses, and that the public was rushing to judgement on insufficient information in this matter) and yet seem entirely ready to fry the Fannie Mae people on information that seems no more complete.  Perhaps you have sources of information that aren't available to the rest of us that would suggest that the one is wrong and the other is right.  I would suggest to you that you don't.  Or that if you have, you haven't presented it.  

     I don't know that Congress should be allowed to tax AIG bonuses at 90%.  This seems to me to be a Bill of Attainder, and as such unconstitutional.  I suspect the ACLU might agree, though I don't know for sure.  Congress may be feeling its oats after being forced to stay in the box over the past eight years while Presidential power has been played up.  I think this is not a great way to get Congressional power re-asserted.  Were I Republican, I would try to present it in those terms, in constitutional terms.  I think a lot of Democrats might be swayed by such an argument.  Or we should be.

     Barney Frank is a fine Liberal congressman, and as such I think he upsets a lot of folks.  However you may feel about Barney Frank, his advocacy for Fannie Mae seems to me to have been fair enough.  The majority of the bad loans didn't go through Fannie or Freddie, only a small percentage of them did; though much has been made about the percentage that did go through.  

     My understanding is that most of the difficult and questionable mortgages went through deregulated banks and were sold on the derivatives market like sausage.  I'm always interested in learning differently; but I believe that these were the result of  deregulation pushed for by the banking industry itself.  Somewhat like the backlash of the Savings and Loan deregulation fiasco from the Reagan Era.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven

Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
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120 posted 04-01-2009 04:07 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Stephanos,

          I don't know, it very well might.

     The Republican's have, of course, a chance to offer budget alternatives which they seem to have wisely eschewed this time around.  They seem to understand that given what they've done to create the current situation, any actual plan they might offer would make only too clear where their actual priorities lay, and that it's simply better to suggest that the Democrats are rotten for spending anything to clean up the current mess.

     If the current situation is in fact to be cleaned up, though, how do you go about it, Stephanos?  Stimulus is probably necessary, and we also have to pay back the debt run up over the past eight years.  If the Republicans aren't going to suggest how to do it and don't want to be part of formulating a plan, do you really want to stigmatize the people who were elected to actually tackle the problems that the Republicans created.

     To be fair, I have to say that if the Democrats had been doing their job well, there would have been a lot more screaming and hollering over the previous eight years, and there would have been a lot more legislative initiatives over the past two years.  The fact that the Republicans were able to block most of those moves, even over the past two years is not really much of an excuse.

     Let's see what will happen over the next year and a half or so.

Hopefully yours, Bob Kaven
Denise
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since 08-22-99
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121 posted 04-01-2009 04:37 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Actually, I read somewhere that his total spending exceeds that of ALL the previous presidents combined since George Washington through George W. Bush.
Juju
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since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


122 posted 04-01-2009 08:12 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Yeah I were is all that money coming from?
-China- and china take that money and invests in sudan and regiems that support terrorism.  Personally,  we need to become independent from china more than the middle east.  

-Juju

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Balladeer
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Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


123 posted 04-01-2009 08:36 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Interesting, isn't it, Denise, that the same people supporting global warming as a great benefit to our "children and future generations" have nothing to say about Obama's spending spree burying those same children under a mountain of debt they will have to live with. That's selective logic, I must assume.
Stephanos
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since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


124 posted 04-01-2009 10:41 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Bob,

I'm less partisan than you might guess.  Its my humble observation that too much spending was the problem with the Bush Administration ... and the pot is calling the kettle black.  Yes, the bail-outs were necessary (if it is true that toxic mortgages and systemic risk is as bad as they say).  But it seems like the Obama administration amounts to very big spending, or more of the same that got us into the mess.  It's not a blame game for me.  I just want to see someone do better.  Forget unrealistic tax cuts for political appeal (the bane of the Bush administration), but also forget overblown budgets that don't reflect reality (Dems and Republicans).  I am just a homeowner and the "president" of a family, and experience/observation tells me it won't work.

Stephen
 
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