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How Now, Down Dow?

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Denise
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75 posted 03-23-2009 04:20 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

It means working for it, inheriting it, winning it, however it came to be yours, it's yours, bonuses and all. However it was gotten legally. I heard these financial institutions were encouraged by the government to structure their executive salaries so the majority of it would be in bonuses. I guess it was more beneficial to the government for some reason.
Local Rebel
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76 posted 03-23-2009 11:20 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

It means working for it, inheriting it, winning it, however it came to be yours, it's yours, bonuses and all.



And you see -- therein lies the problem with approaching the subject from a point of pure ideology.  How much of it is mine to keep?
Bob K
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77 posted 03-24-2009 03:05 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     For another view of the situation that seems somewhat different than that of either the Democrats or Republicans

http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2008/05/taxes_matter_but_the_dollar_ma.html


     This article suggests that the problem may lie with other than taxes but with the state of the dollar, and it seems to make a pretty good case for it.  It also points out how the state of the dollar is inflationary, and how this is an unnamed tax that can hit folks pretty hard.

     From my own partisan Democratic point of view, I have additional things to say, but I want to keep them distinct from this article whose point of view to my uneducated economic mind seems more strictly economic than anything else.  Perhaps I'm overly naive, at least about this piece of writing, since I do have a fair to so-so shot at telling Freedman from Keynes.

     I'm interested in reactions.

     I'd like to point out as well that we seem to have fallen into the habit of dealing with people as if there was something real called The Economic Man.  Economists have given up that thought.  There is no more an Economic Man than there is a Psychological Man, or a Political Man or a Religious Man or A Playing Man; and pretending that we can predict what folks will do by looking at mass behavior through these lenses will yield limited and somewhat distorted data.

     I fear that if I go into much detail here, I'll get people talking off the point I wanted to make, which was about the solidity of the dollar and the article I found.  A different approach, as I suggested.
Balladeer
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78 posted 03-24-2009 01:19 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Obama tries to temper furor over AIG bonuses

By CHARLES BABINGTON, Associated Press Writer Charles Babington, Associated Press Writer – Tue Mar 24, 7:44 am ET

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama is trying to dampen a fire he once stoked, urging a more tempered response to public furor over bonuses paid to executives of the publicly rescued insurance giant American International Group.

Obama's tone changed dramatically after the House voted last week for targeted taxes to take back most of the $165 million in bonuses paid to AIG executives. Many lawmakers felt Obama had encouraged their step, because he called the bonuses reckless, outrageous and unjustified.



Apparently Obama's actions were not only in my mind, LR.
Denise
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79 posted 03-24-2009 03:19 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I believe that everything a person earns should be theirs to keep. That's why I believe in the Fair Tax, being taxed on the expenditures of a person's own choosing, thereby determining how much or how little tax they pay.
Balladeer
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80 posted 03-24-2009 03:33 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

.Last week, he was asked by reporters on the White House South Lawn whether anger was getting in the way of pushing through banking reforms. "I don't want to quell anger," he replied. "I think people are right to be angry. I'm angry."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123785266231219605.html?ru=yahoo&mod=yahoo_itp

actually, that entire article should be read to show how the Obama administration feels about Wall Street, including such views as:

The administration's initial approach contrasted with those of the last two White Houses. Robert Rubin left Goldman Sachs Group to become one of Bill Clinton's top economic advisers, and convinced the new president that what was good for Wall Street was good for America. Under President George W. Bush, the administration "looked up to and admired Wall Street," says one banker. "The Obama folks don't even like us."


The class warfare I had mentioned lately is coming to fruition. Gangs with pitchforks and torches have picketed AIG bonus receipient houses, some of them reportedly bussed in by ACORN.

Too bad Obama doesn't know anybody in ACORN. Maybe he could get them to stop??? But, then, why would he want to?
Dark Star
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81 posted 03-24-2009 04:46 PM       View Profile for Dark Star   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Dark Star

thank the government for tax return
Bob K
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82 posted 03-25-2009 02:41 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Dear Mike,

     Sorry Mike, I saw this and I simply have trouble following it.  Where'd you get the the attribution?  This makes no sense at all.  

Quote:
quote:

The class warfare I had mentioned lately is coming to fruition. Gangs with pitchforks and torches have picketed AIG bonus receipient houses, some of them reportedly bussed in by ACORN.



     Who "reported" this "reportedly bussed in by ACORN business" that you won't source here?  Is it some organization that uses multiple and named sources such as the Conservative but reputable The Economist?  Perhaps The Christian Science Monitor?  The Atlantic?

     Or might it be somebody during the second hour of Rush Limbaugh, who has returned from his golf tour today (3/24/09) with comments about ACORN that he hasn't bothered to source?  
Not meaning to be mysterious here, I mean Limbaugh himself.

     Sincerely, Bob Kaven

[This message has been edited by Bob K (03-25-2009 06:10 AM).]

Tim
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83 posted 03-25-2009 08:27 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Any number of media outlets, local and national, carried versions of the story about ACORN's involvement.  Maybe it was just coincidental the "tour" commenced at the ACORN offices.
http://wiltonvillager.com/story/466786

The tour schedule is as follows:

10 a.m. Pick up at the Working Families headquarters in Hartford at 30 Arbor St.

11 a.m. Pick up in Bridgeport at the ACORN offices at 2320 Main St.

Tour and Protest at AIG Financial Products headquarters, 50 Danbury Road, and executives' homes

2:30 p.m. Return to Bridgeport

3:30 p.m. Return to Hartford
Balladeer
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84 posted 03-25-2009 10:41 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL! Thank you, Tim.

...and, Bob, I checked....Rush Limbaugh does not own the Wilton Villager
Bob K
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85 posted 03-26-2009 08:09 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike and Tim,

quote:

     The class warfare I had mentioned lately is coming to fruition. Gangs with pitchforks and torches have picketed AIG bonus receipient houses, some of them reportedly bussed in by ACORN.



     I check the source Tim offered.  It seems straightforward.  It said that the folks in the tour were being pick up in front of ACORN offices.  It said nothing about gangs.  Nor did the police interviewed in the article.  The police said nothing about gangs, and they said nothing about torches and pitchforks.  Nor did they say anything about these houses being picketed, though, to be truthful, I have heard from sources that I cannot quote or remember rumors of picketing.  I am against such practices, personally, because I don't believe all the information on what happened with AIG is in, and that there has been an over-swift rush to judgement on the part of the public.  And an over-swift rush to take positions on the thing by both parts of the political spectrum.  My personal opinion.  

     That the folks were picked up in front of ACORN offices does not mean that ACORN bussed them in or organized the response.  If they have, I would be disappointed in them.  I don't believe they should be doing that sort of thing.  Their business is, however, not simply voter-registration, but also community organization, isn't it?  I simply feel that this is bad community organizing, if in fact the accusation has merit to it.

     Facts please?  

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
They may be truthful

    
Denise
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86 posted 03-26-2009 08:41 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I'd like to know how this group got the names and addresses of the AIG employees.
Balladeer
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87 posted 03-26-2009 09:09 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Just a coincidence that they were picked up in front of the Acorn offices, bob?

It's hard for me to believe a man of your intelligence would even infer that....

The largest U.S. labor union, the SEIU, and leftist activists from MoveOn.org among others called protests for more than 100 cities the day after President Barack Obama declared, "People are right to be angry -- I'm angry."
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE52I7ZP20090319?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews

So are you as disappointed in Moveon.Org?
Tim
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88 posted 03-27-2009 12:00 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

The pitchforks and torches to me was the common folk going after Frankenstein.

In any event, I had initially thought the Obama administration was going to be similar to the Carter administration.    

Unfortunately, I would welcome the Carter years over the direction it appears we are now heading.

Since the President has such a thing for Lincoln, I will use a quote often attributed to Lincoln.

"You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."

I certainly admit to being a moderate Republican.  When individuals I know to have strong liberal creditials are getting worried, then it is time to figure out whom is getting fooled.

For anyone to argue with a straight face as is still being done that the President is a centrist or left centrist is beyond my simple ability to comprehend.

To still believe this administration is engaged in a new form of bi-partisanship would cause one also to believe Raum Emanuel is the tooth fairy.  

The talk of bi-partisanship is a great slogan.  Unfortunately, we have a partisan form of government.  Instead of bi-partisanship, we need statesmanship, which is in an extremely short supply.

Yes, I am worried for my children and grandchildren.
Ron
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89 posted 03-27-2009 12:08 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Explain to me again how peaceful assembly is a bad thing? Or is it only bad when it targets someone else's agenda instead of our own?

Any freedom worth having is subject to abuse. If we fail to support that abuse just as vigorously as we would support a legitimate exercise of freedom, there is no freedom. There is only privilege.


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90 posted 03-27-2009 04:58 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

It goes a little beyond peaceful assembly, Ron. Do you feel that everyone who got bonuses are evil? They received what their contracts called for and what congress agreed they could have. What about all the hate mail, graphically displaying how the people should be killed (which were read to congress by the AIG head, explaining why he didn;t want to give out names)? Is that peaceful, too? Support abuse? I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.

..and when that abuse is spurred on by the President and carried out by the organization he used to work for and was instrumental in his election, it makes it even more distasteful. You can support abuse against innocents if you like. I'll continue to call it abuse.
Tim
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91 posted 03-27-2009 08:56 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

"If we fail to support that abuse just as vigorously as we would support a legitimate exercise of freedom, there is no freedom."

That one I miss.  I was brought up to object to abuses of the system.

Freedom of speech and the other freedoms so many have fought and died for are the cornerstones and foundations of our country.  

Certainly ACORN, the Klu Klux Klan, or even Fred Phelps (who Kansans are ashamed of and consider despicable) have the right to peaceable assembly.  

That does not mean the rest of us are to sit back and applaud the exercise of their constitutional rights.

When private individuals are getting death threats and worse and an organization plans a protest to go t0 the private residences of those individuals, knowing full well the intended result (fear and intimidation to the families (including children) living in those residences, then I also have a right as an American to say you have crossed the line.

Personally, I think the training videos to go out to rally support for the President, including the use of children, are a wee bit weird and troubling.  Others may not, but I have a right to my statements and feelings.

Freedom of speech is a two way street.  You can say and do it, but the other side has a right to say, hey, wait a minute, you've crossed the line and we object.  That is freedom of speech.

Balladeer
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92 posted 03-27-2009 09:09 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Actually, if they want to conduct their "peaceful assemblies" in the right places, they should be going to the homes of Chris Dodd, who amended the bill, and the members of congress, who passed it. THAT would be the proper place for their demonstrations...
Denise
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93 posted 03-27-2009 09:17 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Does anyone know how the employee's names and addresses were made available? By whom? To whom? Didn't the CEO say that he would give the names to Congress but requested they not be made public for safety concerns? And didn't Barney Frank say that he couldn't promise to keep them private? Did Frank or someone else in Congress release these names to the SEIU? If so, how despicable is that?
Ron
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94 posted 03-27-2009 10:06 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Do you feel that everyone who got bonuses are evil?

Do you feel the Vietnam war was evil, Balladeer? Or civil rights? How about the picket line down at your local AFL-CIO? Does freedom depend on your opinion?

quote:
That one I miss.  I was brought up to object to abuses of the system.

I think a cold blooded killer walking the streets simply because someone forgot to read him his Miranda rights is an abuse of the system, Tim. Do you?

quote:
When private individuals are getting death threats and worse ...

Those are illegal, of course, whether to private individuals or to public servants.

quote:
... and an organization plans a protest to go t0 the private residences of those individuals, knowing full well the intended result (fear and intimidation to the families (including children) living in those residences ...

So, Tim, you think demonstrations resulting in fear and intimidation should be illegal? Like the civil rights marches of the Sixties or the picketing of abortion clinics today?

quote:
... then I also have a right as an American to say you have crossed the line.

Certainly you have a right to say it, Tim. But you're clearly wrong. Crossing the line means yelling fire in a crowded theatre. Crossing the line means breaking the law and going to jail. When lines are crossed, I'll be the first to dial 911 and report it.

If y'all want to prevent people from collectively expressing their opinions, or at least opinions you don't like, you're going to have to make a few changes to the Constitution.


Balladeer
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95 posted 03-27-2009 10:39 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

you think demonstrations resulting in fear and intimidation should be illegal? Like the civil rights marches of the Sixties or the picketing of abortion clinics today?

against innocents, Ron? Yes, I do. Many of the people who received bonuses last year are innocents. Their wives and children are certainly innocents. I can't think poorly enough of you to believe you condone such tactics against innocents. If that's what you think the constitution stands for, let me say you are wrong. The thousands of death threat e-mails are also wrong, but they are no different than the protesters on the lawns in intimidation tactics.

Don't you feel the protesters would be more properly placed on the lawns of the congressmen who allowed the bonuses to be paid?
Ron
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96 posted 03-27-2009 11:03 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
against innocents, Ron?

So America only gets to protest against people you've decided are guilty, Mike?

quote:
Don't you feel the protesters would be more properly placed on the lawns of the congressmen who allowed the bonuses to be paid?

You keep trying to make it about an issue, Mike. An issue you clearly find distasteful. It can't be about the issue and still be about the essence of freedom. The right to peaceful assembly is either a freedom enjoyed by every American, or it's a privilege granted only to the ones you like. Which is it to be?
Balladeer
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97 posted 03-27-2009 11:23 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Sorry, Ron, I consider your argument to be double-speak. Of course it is about an issue. The issue is the bonuses paid out. The protesters are going after the receipients and not the people who granted the bonuses in the first place. You refuse to address that and prefer to talk around it.

Only the people I find to be innocent, Ron? Fine....then you tell me how the families and children of bonus receivers are not innocents. Let ANYONE tell me how these families are not innocents.

Let groups of people wind up on your front lawn, carrying signs against you, screaming harsh protests against you, insulting you while your wife and children are inside, afraid to go out, and all because they feel that your university salary, the one the university agreed to pay you, is too high, based on the amount of starving people in Gander. Let's hear about how justified you believe their actions are then as you try to explain it to your children.

We can simply agree to disagree because there is nothing you can say which will convince me that this vigilante rule, spurred on by the president and orchestrated by his staunch supporters, ACORN and MOVEON,Org is justifiable and, apparently, there is nothing I can say to you to convince you that any repercussions should be laid to the feet of congress, where it belongs. Such is life.....
Ron
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98 posted 03-27-2009 01:48 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Fine....then you tell me how the families and children of bonus receivers are not innocents.

Ohhhh, no, Mike. If you want to be the arbiter of guilt and innocence in America, fine. But don't drag me into the crusade, if you please.  

quote:
Of course it is about an issue.

Not for me, Mike. The only issue that concerns me is the Constitutionally protected right to peaceful assembly. The rest is just hyperbole and public opinion.


Grinch
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99 posted 03-27-2009 02:18 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Personally I don’t agree with picketing outside the homes of AIG staff, it‘s not something I‘d be comfortable being involved in. On the other hand as long as the protests are peaceful I don’t believe I’ve any right to dictate whether others should or shouldn’t be doing it.

.
 
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