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How Now, Down Dow?

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Local Rebel
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50 posted 03-22-2009 12:48 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

LR..claim 6 still stands for me. The public grumbled before now, even a small bit of outrage that wouldn't hit 2 on the Richter scale but, after Obama's flaming rhetoric, Congress's play-for-audience outrage, network news stations and talk shows giving it lead-in status, it turned from a small smoulder to a forest fire of public hatred. There were no thousands of hate mails before, no descriptive death threats aimed and every receiptient, no congressional witch trials and to say the president's and congress's impetus in this really did nothing to fuel this vigilanteeism is a little on the absurd side, in my view.



Hmmmm... it seems you're actually accusing the Obama administration and Congressional Democrats of being leaders here..  Although you've made it clear there's nothing I can say to change your mind about anything -- something or someone seems to have changed your mind about three times in this one thread -- from the Obama administration is incompetent -- to masterminding the entire recession -- to being incompetent -- to orchestrating a populist uprising...

Of course -- this makes no sense to me-- because the Obama administration is in charge of the government.  Populist uprisings are anathema to a sitting government.  Because -- they have to govern.  One of FDR's biggest banes was Huey Long's populism from the left... and Father Coughlin's right wing populism.

Why would you feel the Republicans in the house who voted yea on the clawback tax did so because the administration and Barney Frank made them do it?

This began simmering in the blogosphere my friend.  And then it boiled over into the press, and by the time the Sunday talkers hit--the pitchforks and torches were in the street.  That's when the Obama camp rolled out trying to calm things down by with Trumanish 'Mea Culpa -- now let's move on'.  You point to a drop in Obama's numbers -- (which has only been visible at the end of this week) -- but that betrays your thesis -- the fire was already burning.

Of course -- the House being the instrument of the people's passions -- the members are much more sensitive to voter sentiment -- which is why you saw them behaving the way they were.

Now all of this could have been avoided if Geithner and team Obama had done what the drug-addict from Florida kept accusing them of doing -- which was nationalizing the banks -- instead they continued with the Hank Paulson model of a voluntary bail-out plan (and Obama's reason for picking Geithner since he was there at the inception --to provide continuity) -- which is why the whole recovery could have started to unravel if banks handed the money back.

This stands to illustrate too, how detached from the real world the financial sector is -- Geightner's world of seven figure incomes gave him and the Wall Street executives a tin ear as to how this was going to play to the electorate -- or even his boss.

Again though, like Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo -- you point to the reporting and the debate in Congress as the problem -- instead of recognizing that those are just dominoes set in motion by the perpetrators.  It is the burden of the press and the Congress to react.  This is the price of freedom Mike.  Our outrages are played out in real time for everyone to see.

Decide which product it is that you want me to buy though.  Incompetent and inexperienced Obama and friends -- or Obama the master Machiavellian.

Balladeer
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51 posted 03-22-2009 08:37 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Although you've made it clear there's nothing I can say to change your mind about anything -

Well, LR, with this last entry of yours, it appears that applies equally to you as well. As I mentioned before, whatever facts or common sense deductions that do not agree with your way of thinking are either disregarded or refuted. So be it.

Democrats are in charge of the White House and Congress. Whether or not they are competent (which they are not), the fact remains they are in charge. They are proving how incompetent they really are with this "take your bonus - give your bonus back!" fiasco. You don't want to recognize that is exactly what happened? Fine. You don't want to acknowledge that Chris Dodd came out with a bold-faced lie when he claimed he didn't change anything in the bill (which he had to recant)...fine. You don't want to acknowledge that Geitner's claim that he didn't know anything about the bonuses until March 17, which was recanted after a video came out on Youtube showing him being advised by a member of congress of the bonuses on March 10th, which made that another bold-faced lie fed to the American people,,,,,fine. You don't want to acknowledge that Obama going on national television ranting about the bonuses and Pelosi standing in front of congress ranting about the bonuses had as much to do with the hatred and death threats now directed at bonus receivers as the "internet groundswell"...fine. Far be it from me to interfere with PollyannaLand. Enjoy your world....
Denise
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52 posted 03-22-2009 02:47 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

And perhaps this feigned outrage by our "leaders" (I use that term extremely lightly) over the bonuses, which Geitner, Obama, Pelosi, Dodd, Frank, et al, knew were coming down the pike, and condoned, and legislativly facilitated, was merely a smokescreen to divert attention away from the $1.2 trillion that the Fed printed this past Wednesday, that will further devalue the dollar. I didn't see any MSM coverage on that. Keep everyone's attention glued to an outrageous situation while an infinitely more outrageous situation goes virtually unnoticed.

These people would be comical if they weren't destroying this country.
Grinch
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53 posted 03-22-2009 04:37 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


I take it that you donít agree that quantitative easing is the right thing to do Denise, what would you recommend as an alternative?

.
Local Rebel
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54 posted 03-22-2009 05:18 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Democrats are in charge of the White House and Congress. Whether or not they are competent (which they are not), the fact remains they are in charge.



We agree they are in charge.  Competence is a relative term and the question is competent at what and compared to what?  Compared to the competence of those who brought us to this dance -- I don't want to go home with the ones who brung us.

On the other hand I think the clawback tax is a mistake of Constitutional proportion.  I think I said that already.  Didn't I?

quote:

They are proving how incompetent they really are with this "take your bonus - give your bonus back!" fiasco. You don't want to recognize that is exactly what happened? Fine.



I don't think that what happened is that simplistic.  The Republicans and the Treasury department didn't want to put these kind of restrictions on the financial institutions that are participating in TARP.  

I think it was an epic mistake for the Congress to have gone along with the Bush administrations 'just trust us' approach yet again -- as they did with the war in Iraq.  Hank Paulson's doling out of 200 billion dollars with no strings attached brought us to this point where not one single toxic asset has been purchased -- but yet we're expecting a brand new administration to know what the compensation packages are at every single company -- how much more complaining of micro-managing and socialism would there be if they actually were making these kinds of decisions?

quote:

You don't want to acknowledge that Chris Dodd came out with a bold-faced lie when he claimed he didn't change anything in the bill (which he had to recant)



I don't?  Maybe I do.  You haven't really presented any factual information on this.  I'm also not sure what Dodd claimed on Tuesday that he didn't have anything to do with -- was he talking about his own amendment or was he talking about the death of the Wyden/Snowe amendment?

All that I'm sure of factually is the information I posted before -- which is more of an indictment of Geithner than Dodd.

quote:

You don't want to acknowledge that Geitner's claim that he didn't know anything about the bonuses until March 17, which was recanted after a video came out on Youtube showing him being advised by a member of congress of the bonuses on March 10th, which made that another bold-faced lie fed to the American people



I don't?  Hmmmm... you'll have to show me where I don't.  

quote:

You don't want to acknowledge that Obama going on national television ranting about the bonuses and Pelosi standing in front of congress ranting about the bonuses had as much to do with the hatred and death threats now directed at bonus receivers as the "internet groundswell"...



Well. I've seen Obama say he understands that people are outraged -- and seen him calmly say we need to channel that anger in a positive direction.

I don't know a single quote that's come from Pelosi on this matter.

I do know that it was Republican Senator Charles Grassley who said the top executives of AIG should follow the Japanese model and kill themselves.

Denise
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55 posted 03-22-2009 05:54 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

What would I do? Glad you asked, Grinch!

First, I'd give the taxpayers a 3 to 6 month tax holiday. The people would kick start the economy much more effectively with that money than the government seems able to do. And during the tax holiday I'd start to push for the fair tax (tax on expenditures, not earnings). I'd also cut the capital gains tax, and make sure that the death tax is not reinstituted.

Then I'd immediately stop any and all future bail outs of private companies with tax dollars. Sink or swim, let the chips fall where they may.

Next, I'd stop the obscene increase in spending in Washington. I'd freeze all spending at last year's rate and go through everything with a fine tooth comb to see what else could be cut, where money could be saved and further reduce expenditures, you know, like we private citizens are being forced to do right now in our own personal budgets.

I'd then rescind the pay increases (8%, I believe) that Congress just voted themselves and the increase in expense money they were given (about $90,000 additional per year per Congressperson, I believe it was, for their district offices and expenses).

I'd then stop flying around in Air Force One campaigning for 2012, save about $30,000 in fuel (not to mention the additional fuel expense of the decoy plane) and cut down on the coctail parties, to say maybe once a month at the most. I'd also forego serving $100 per pound beef to the guests while the rest of us eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for dinner.


  
Local Rebel
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56 posted 03-22-2009 06:11 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I applaud your willingness Denise to go on the record with your opinions.... however... let's keep facts straight,  Congress has received an automatic pay raise of 8% since 1989 unless voted otherwise.

They voted in 2007 to fore go the automatic raise and have voted to fore go it in 2010 -- while some Congress members and Senators (such as Reid) would like to do away with the automatic raise -- Pelosi isn't interested in bringing it up in the House at this time... and... why should she?  The Republicans, after all, had between 1994 and 2006 to stop the automatic raise and they didn't.  For the time being the raise for next year is off the table -- so why bother with legislation to remove it forever when there are obviously bigger fish to fry?

Balladeer
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57 posted 03-22-2009 06:41 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I think it was an epic mistake for the Congress to have gone along with the Bush administrations 'just trust us' approach yet again Of course! The Bush administration! Not the democratic congress...Bush! I should have known.

You haven't really presented any factual information on this.  I'm also not sure what Dodd claimed on Tuesday that he didn't have anything to do with Why not look it up on your factcheck.org and then you won't have to claim you're not sure?  It got enough word-for-word exposure for anuyone to not have to claim to be "not sure".

and seen him calmly say we need to channel that anger in a positive direction

I see. Then you haven't seen the newsclips of his outrage about such an abomination occurring, which was carried by all of the major news media?


I don't know a single quote that's come from Pelosi on this matter.


I see. Then you haven't seen the video od Pelosi standing before congress with her face twisted in anger, ranting about how she will not accept that same abomination and how they will not get away with it?

It's interesting that, when you want to prove your points, you do great research on factcheck.org but with facts that may go against your arguments, you "don't know" or are "not sure" or "haven't seen" and yet you claim you would change your opinions based on facts. That dog won't hunt any more....
Grinch
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58 posted 03-22-2009 06:45 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Iím not sure that your budget would work Denise.

quote:
a 3 to 6 month tax holiday


Presumably youíd lay off all the people that the government pay with that revenue. Or are you going to keep paying them and borrow the money? Or you could just print some more money I suppose.

quote:
And during the tax holiday I'd start to push for the fair tax (tax on expenditures, not earnings).


This would increase prices and reduce consumer spending, the opposite of what you need at the moment. Reduced spending means lower sales, lower sales means businesses go bust or reduce their workforce requirements and that means higher unemployment. Higher unemployment means more people need government support from tax revenue but you donít have any because of the tax holiday. You could just print some more money I suppose.

quote:
Then I'd immediately stop any and all future bail outs of private companies with tax dollars. Sink or swim, let the chips fall where they may.


Mass unemployment and bankruptcies being the most likely. More people on government support, no tax revenue. Print more money?

.
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59 posted 03-22-2009 06:59 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

if you would really like to know what Dodd said so that you can be sure, here it is...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZKqp14Szco&NR=1
Balladeer
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60 posted 03-22-2009 07:02 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

here's the entire cast...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xehVYNaqqzM
Denise
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61 posted 03-22-2009 07:31 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Thanks for the clarification on the Congressional pay raises, L.R. I think it's time to abolish it altogether. The more fish we can fry right now the better. If they want a raise let them vote for it every year.

I don't think a tax holiday would bankrupt the country, Grinch. It would give us all a little breathing room and thereby increase spending, which is what the economy needs at this point in time (and not credit card spending, but cold hard cash). And a permanent decrease in tax liability to the folks who create jobs would also help get things moving in the right direction again. I also think a Federal sales tax in lieu of an income tax is a much better way to go. Without a tax on our wages we'd have much more disposable income. I don't think sales would go down, but just the opposite. Of course the government may have less money under their control, but I don't see that as a bad thing, just the opposite in fact.  We need a smaller Federal government that gets back to the basic essentials and keeps its hands out of our pockets.
Local Rebel
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62 posted 03-22-2009 07:31 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Of course! The Bush administration! Not the democratic congress...Bush! I should have known.



Was there some other administration in charge back in September of 2008?  Did AIG's first Fed bailout and the subsequent TARP bill come into being under a ghost regime?  Was Obama already President?  Even before the election?

quote:

Why not look it up on your factcheck.org and then you won't have to claim you're not sure?  It got enough word-for-word exposure for anuyone to not have to claim to be "not sure".


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/mar/20/national-republican-senatorial-committee/Dodd-failed-to-halt-bailout-bonuses/
http://www.factcheck.org/politics/blame_dodd_attacks_ignore_facts.html

Ok I've seen the CNN clip now... thanks.  I don't see a bold-faced lie there.  That would imply some level of engagement on Dodd's part.  What I saw was an idiot who didn't know what his staff was doing -- or did -- or what he agreed to.  In my opinion that's worse than prevarication.  That's plain old dereliction of duty.

Still -- the point remains -- idiot or not -- the important thing to note was that the change was coming from the White House and Geithner.

quote:

I see. Then you haven't seen the newsclips of his outrage about such an abomination occurring, which was carried by all of the major news media?



I saw the newsclip of him clumsily trying to be 'choked up' with anger -- and his faux pounding of the lectern?  Is that what you're refering to?  In every clip you showed me in your montage -- he's calm, collected, and reflecting views you've offered yourself.

quote:

see. Then you haven't seen the video od Pelosi standing before congress with her face twisted in anger, ranting about how she will not accept that same abomination and how they will not get away with it?



No.

quote:

It's interesting that, when you want to prove your points, you do great research on factcheck.org but with facts that may go against your arguments, you "don't know" or are "not sure" or "haven't seen" and yet you claim you would change your opinions based on facts. That dog won't hunt any more....



You're leveling an accusation at me for not searching to prove -- your points?  If you want to make a point Mike -- isn't the burden of proof on you?

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63 posted 03-22-2009 07:44 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No, not really. In an actual search for truth, examining facts should be conducted by all concerned, regardless of who presents them initially. If i want to say I'm right, I should submit proof. If you want to say I'm wrong, you should submit proof that i am. Just saying "I don't know about that" is weak in this internet superhighway age.
Local Rebel
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64 posted 03-22-2009 07:57 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

So, then, it's my job to anticipate all of your source material before you submit an opinion so that I make sure I'm familiar with it prior to your posting?

Please show me where I've ever said 'you're wrong' without pointing you to the correct information.

Grinch
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65 posted 03-22-2009 08:10 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
I don't think a tax holiday would bankrupt the country, Grinch


I donít either, it would bankrupt the government though who rely on tax revenue to pay staff and supply services, think of them as a business Denise. What youíre suggesting is that you can cut off the revenue of a business and still expect it to continue trading.

I donít think thatís a realistic expectation.

Donít get me wrong, there are a lot of worrying side effects to quantitative easing. A tendency to rapid inflation somewhere down the line being the biggest, but Iíve not heard anyone suggest anything better so far.

Reducing tax, however good an idea it sounds isnít an effective tool right now, it doesnít take much to see that if you really think about it.

People suggest that if you reduce the tax burden on employers theyíll employ more people. Does that make any sense? Since when has it been common practice to employ more people than you actually need to do business? Thatís totally contrary to business and common sense.
Businesses employ more people when the demand for their goods and services requires that they increase output.

Some might say that giving rich people more money will allow them spend more. Will it?

Well rich people do spend a lot of money, you see it all the time they buy whatever they want or need. So what the heck are they going to spend their tax bonus on Denise? Stuff they donít want? No theyíre going to stick it into a high interest account and add the interest to the pile of money they already havenít spent.

Rich people are rich because they donít spend all their money, if they did theyíd be poor people.

If you want to increase spending give the money to the poor folk - theyíre experts at spending - they spend every penny they can get their hands just to survive day to day.

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66 posted 03-22-2009 08:29 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Nor sure I understand your point, grinch. Leaving more money in people's pockets will certainly increase spending. Increased spending will lead to more sales. More sales will lead to more production. More production will lead to more jobs. is there something wrong with that way of thinking?
Artic Wind
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67 posted 03-22-2009 08:48 PM       View Profile for Artic Wind   Email Artic Wind   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Artic Wind

actually Balladeer, I agree very much


ARCTIC WIND
Denise
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68 posted 03-22-2009 09:01 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Have you heard of any success stories when quantitative easing has been employed, Grinch? Isn't hyper-inflation a reality in countries where it has been tried, where people need wheelbarrows of money to buy a loaf of bread? And people burning their paper money for heating and cooking fuel because it is basically worthless as money? Didn't that happen recently in Botswana, I think?

The government would still get tax revenue, just not through wages, but rather through people spending their wages on goods and services.

If you permanently reduce the tax rate on the business people you give them the capital and incentive to grow their businesses, without fear of punitive increases in taxation the more successful they get, and put them in the position to become more confident to invest more of their earnings in expanding their businesses, without the fear of the government penalizing them for creating more wealth. Increased demand for goods and services goes hand in hand with the ability of regular folks to afford those goods and services, and that would come through increased employment and also increased disposable income. And the less the government interferes in this cycle, the better it tends to function as it should.

I believe that rich people and poor people, and all of us in between, should spend the money that we've earned, and no one else's. I no more want a tax reduction that comes at the expense of someone else's hard earned money, than I want a tax increase to provide free services to those the government deems eligible. Government aid to the truly needy should be minimal. The family, community, churches, synagogues and mosques should be the primary providers of charity to the needy, not the government, in my opinion.

Grinch
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69 posted 03-22-2009 09:57 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Leaving more money in people's pockets will certainly increase spending.


No it wonĎt Mike, getting people to put their hand in their pocket and actually spending the money will increase spending.



If someone gave me a tax cut Iíd put it to one side for the predicted rainy days ahead. All that does is remove the money from circulation, thatís what happens in a recession, the monetary conveyor belt grinds to a halt and if you donít get it going the machine explodes.

quote:
Have you heard of any success stories when quantitative easing has been employed, Grinch?


Yes.

There are hundreds of them, quantitative easing is just a fancy name for devaluation of a fiat currency or just plain devaluation if you like. Itís been used successfully by almost every economy in the past - including the US.

quote:
Isn't hyper-inflation a reality in countries where it has been tried


No.

Quantitative easing is used in two cases, the first is when you need to increase the flow of credit, such as during a recession and which is normally during a period of deflation such as we have now. Quantitative easing however is sometimes used during inflation, to basically ensure that thereís enough money out there to fill demand. Unfortunately this tends to fuel inflation leading to hyper-inflation.

quote:
The government would still get tax revenue, just not through wages, but rather through people spending their wages on goods and services.


Err.. Sales are down across the board Denise, people arenít spending and unemployment is rising which means less tax revenue and more unemployment benefits to pay from a reducing pot. Is it really a good idea to raise the price of goods and reduce the tax revenue in those circumstances?

quote:
If you permanently reduce the tax rate on the business people you give them the capital and incentive to grow their businesses


How?

Businesses grow by selling more, the more they sell the more they need to produce and the more people they need to employ. Businesses are shedding jobs right now because sales have dropped and they donít need to produce as much. How many are going to expand production in the face of reduced demand?

None if they have any sense whatsoever.

.
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70 posted 03-22-2009 10:23 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

If someone gave me a tax cut Iíd put it to one side for the predicted rainy days ahead. All that does is remove the money from circulation,

We will have to agree to disagree on this one, grinch. People aren't putting aside for rainy days. They are paying for what they need NOW. People  have had to cut back on expenses. people are having a hard time making payments. People have cut back on anything that can be considered an "extra". They are not thinking about rainy days. THIS is their rainy day.

You know what business grew the most during the Depression? The movie industry...look it up. People found a way to take whatever money they could and go to the movies. They needed an escape and spent their money to get it. People would do the same today.

People with more money will spend it and the economy will benefit from it. If you don't want to believe that, then that's your choice..
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71 posted 03-22-2009 10:59 PM       View Profile for Dark Star   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Dark Star

yah, but people in the great depression were less civilized than soceity is now. we now-a-days have a smarter financial plan and how to deal with our money balladeer. we didn't make the same mistakes people did back then, they used there money non-stop for entertainment purposes. I think that we are not that bad in money spending on entertainment that put us all in dept

but i do agree with you on the part that we have to be prepared for the "rain day" ahead

Lana
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72 posted 03-23-2009 06:02 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

You think people who lived through during the Great Depression were less civilized than today's generation, Lana?

I think people today who have that "smarter financial plan" are now wishing that they had followed in their grandparent's/parent's footsteps and hid their money in their mattresses and cookie jars and wish they had never heard of such a thing as a credit card.
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73 posted 03-23-2009 11:17 AM       View Profile for Dark Star   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Dark Star

I know Denise, I agree with that   I mean about the entertainment issues, and how some people believe that people could go into a depression because we were spending money on entertainment, more less, government.

I just believe that we are dealing with our money a little better than before. But the government is essentially greedy, and wanted lots more money these past years, therefore, dept.

What annoys me is that, why can't they put there money out for saving the planet, they may have some where in the world, but that's not enough. Global warming is serious stuff.

Thanks for this Denise, I do agree with you.

Lana
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Local Rebel
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74 posted 03-23-2009 02:57 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

I believe that rich people and poor people, and all of us in between, should spend the money that we've earned, and no one else's.



What does 'earned' mean Denise?  Does that include inheriting it from your parents?  Irrational exuberance?  Winnings from gambling? Didn't the executives at AIG 'legally' earn their bonuses?
 
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