How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 Mexico   [ Page: 1  2  ]
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Mexico

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


0 posted 03-04-2009 07:16 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Who is doing so much grass, hash,
heroin, etc, that two cartels between
them can afford a 100,000 man army?

What's going to happen
when they start finding heads
in Brownsville, Texas?

,
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


1 posted 03-04-2009 10:07 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

This is what happens when you fight a war instead of treat an illness.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


2 posted 03-05-2009 02:52 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Just out of curiosity, where might you have gotten this interesting bit of data — the 100,000 person army, I mean?
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


3 posted 03-05-2009 03:07 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Just out of curiosity, where might you have gotten this interesting bit of data — the 100,000 person army, I mean?

     We have artificially jacked up the price of all these substances through a series of interesting policy decisions.  We have made a decision to send money to criminals and to support criminal enterprises and support the breakdown of order in our society by attempting to enforce a series of laws the population is unwilling to obey.  We could have used this money in taxes to support useful programs that support public health and welfare.  By using it to declare war disproportionately on the poor and disadvantaged, we have been able to remove a fair number of potential non-Republican voters from the voter rolls, however.  This seems to be a popular way of waging class warfare against the underclasses.  Treatment, which might generate a possible detente if not a solution is clearly nowhere near as valuable an option in maintaining the current balance of power in this country.

     We need these people in jail more than we need the actual "drug problem" solved and certainly more than we need to help the problem of low governmental income which might be helped by a moderate tax on some of these drugs to pay for drug treatment and to help solve many of the health care problems that have been dogging us.  Dontcha think?
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


4 posted 03-05-2009 12:53 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“The U.S. Defense Department thinks Mexico's two most deadly drug cartels together have fielded more than 100,000 foot soldiers - an army that rivals Mexico's armed forces and threatens to turn the country into a narco-state.”

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/03/100000-foot-soldiers-in-cartels/


.

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


5 posted 03-05-2009 04:52 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

we have been able to remove a fair number of potential non-Republican voters from the voter rolls

There you have it, John. Another republican conspiracy....question answered.
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


6 posted 03-05-2009 05:43 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
The U.S. Defense Department thinks Mexico's two most deadly drug cartels together have fielded more than 100,000 foot soldiers


Would that be the same defence department that thought there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? Do you believe the number they’re quoting? Ok, lets suppose that you do.

quote:
an army that rivals Mexico's armed forces and threatens to turn the country into a narco-state.”


The Mexican armed forces currently number some 620,400 with 19,058,337 males fit for military service if the need arises. Even if you believe the figure of 100,000 foot soldiers that the defence department “think” the cartels can field given the numbers above do you really believe it constitutes a force that can “rival” the Mexican armed forces?

.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


7 posted 03-05-2009 05:57 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Rambo can rival the Mexican Armed forces!
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


8 posted 03-05-2009 07:20 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Rambo can rival the Mexican Armed forces!


You should apply for a job as a Defence Department spokesman Mike - you‘re a natural.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


9 posted 03-05-2009 08:10 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"Currently, Mexico's armed forces number some 620,400, including the reserves."



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Mexico


"one US Defense Department official has revealed that the Pentagon estimates that the cartels have at their disposal over 100,000 troops, roughly on par with the Mexican army’s 130,000 troops."


http://news.antiwar.com/2009/03/03/pentagon-estimates-drug-cartels-on-par-with-mex     ican-army/


“The most ruthless gang of drug-cartel hit men in Mexico are deserters from the army's elite. But the Zetas, as the ex-soldiers are known, may not be the only troops who abandoned their posts to work for the cartels.

In the eight years since the Zetas were organized, more than 120,000 Mexican soldiers have deserted, according to the government's records. Yet the country's military officials have made little effort to track their whereabouts, security experts said, creating a potential pool of military-trained killers for the drug-trafficking gangs wreaking havoc in the country.”


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/06/24/MNG23QIJH11.DTL&feed=rss.   news


Different picture, different answer.

.


Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


10 posted 03-05-2009 08:25 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Huan Yi,

           While I believe the numbers possibly inflated — I'd like to see estimates from other than The Washington Times because they seem to have some difficulty with sourcing in general — I find the investigation interesting.  I sent a link to Mike several months back that addressed a link between drug policy, extremism, terror and urban gangs.  This is not a path that I usually would credit, but I thought the journal seemed solid and the paper itself seemed well written and well argued.  I offer the link for you here.  It will probably support your line of thinking in general more than my own, but anything this well constructed deserves a chance for folks to have a look at it.
http://smallwarsjournal.com/documents/killebrewgangs.pdf


     I'd be interested to hear what you think about it, since it seems more your line than mine.  If you get a chance to have a look of course.

All my best, Bob Kaven
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


11 posted 03-05-2009 08:39 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

quote:
Who is doing so much grass, hash,
heroin, etc, that two cartels between
them can afford a 100,000 man army?


Hey--don't blame me, mang.

All my stuff is certified U.S. National Forest!

And if they are actually finding the heads buried? Then the Mexican Mafia is definitely slipping...tsk.

Back in the day, when the Banditos were border control...well

snuff said.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


12 posted 03-05-2009 09:27 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




Dear Mike,

          I suggested you have a look at Greg Palast's Books  The finest Democracy Money Can Buy and Armed Madhouse in a previous posting.  You would have found substantial doccumentation of the claim you mock without evidence in your posting above.  

     The part of your assertion that is a personal swipe at my thinking and judgement process I will merely note here and suggest that it may have been gratuitous.  Should you actually doubt the facts of my assertion and not wish to check out those in the two books whose titles I offered you above, you might check out some of these articles below.  At least one of them contains a 10 minute video that seems informative.  After seeing some of the places where I've found some of this information and evaluating it for yourself, I'd look forward to continuing.  In particular, I'd appreciating your willingness to back up your assertions that I am a conspiracy monger here with some suggestion that what I am speaking about doesn't rest on generally well documented and reliable information from  reliable sources.  Check out the articles below.  You may not like the facts, but then neither do I.
  
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/26/voter.suppression/

http://blogs.independent.co.uk/openhouse/2008/10/the-vote-grab-v.html

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15198501

http://www.iefd.org/articles/voter_purging.php

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/23638322/block_the_vote/4

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/9/greg_palast_on_vote_rigging_and

Sincerely yours,  Bob Kaven
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


13 posted 03-05-2009 11:06 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Yeah... that whole Prohibition thing worked out well too didn't it?
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


14 posted 03-06-2009 12:18 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, I went through two of your links from one agency I respect and one i half-respect. The blogs and left-wing rags I didn't bother with. CNN spoke about cleaning up voters registration lists. So did NPR. CNN did not say anything I saw which indicated actions were done to keep democratic voters off the lists. NPR carried the opinion of one person who claimed that, since many taken off the lists were poor, they odds were good that they were democrats. I consider this hardly proof to back up your statement we have been able to remove a fair number of potential non-Republican voters from the voter rolls

your assertions that I am a conspiracy monger no, you're not a monger, Bob. You simply show no hesitation in pointing fingers of conspiracy at the Republicans over an incredibly wide variety of topics, this being one.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


15 posted 03-06-2009 03:37 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

           Since the facts of the Republican Voter suppression strategies seem reasonably clear to me, and seem reasonably well documented by a wide range of writers,  researchers, journalists from a range of different perspectives, including the reasonably objective ones; and since I haven't really come across any reasonably objective  research suggesting that these claims about Republican electoral tactics in a number of states, Florida included, are not accurate, I have no particular problem with finding and offering you more references.

     If you'd let me know which sources you find beyond the Pale, I'll try to make note of them.  I don't like to waste my time presenting data that you will reject without examining.  I can understand why, however.

http://uspolitics.einnews.com/article.php?nid=565833
http://www.brennancenter.org/content/resource/study_finds_states_purging_millions_of_voters_in_secret_often_erroneously
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7422-2004Oct28.html
http://www.truthout.org/article/exclusive-emails-detail-rnc-voter-supression-5-states
http://www.slate.com/id/2167284/
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2006/1832
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0DEEDC103BF933A25754C0A9629C8B63


quote:


Mike makes reference to Bob's dislike for being characterized in a way that Bob finds distasteful:


"your assertions that I am a conspiracy monger"


Mike then continues,

"no, you're not a monger, Bob. You simply show no hesitation in pointing fingers of conspiracy at the Republicans over an incredibly wide variety of topics, this being one."




     If you mean that none of the finger pointing is made with reason or adequate documentation to substantiate it, and that it is false,  you have attacked my reputation here.  You have also simply restated the initial unpleasant comment in a slightly variant form, as though that made it better.  If there is some point you want to make about the points I am raising about the Republican strategy for winning elections, and the specifics that many of the officials of that party have apparently used, according to these and other articles, I am willing to listen and consider.

     Your personal comments and insinuations about me do not seem to help to advance any of the points that you might wish to make, however.  And, for the present, they serve only as a substitute for informing me about what these points might actually be.  

Sincerely yours, Bob Kaven
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


16 posted 03-06-2009 10:08 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Alright, Bob. I will go through these links when I have time later. You seem to have a problem with requiring voters to actually be eligible to vote by the guidelines set in place so I will respond to that. Interesting that dead people or Mickey Mouses showing up to vote are not worthy of comment but illegals are. I'll get back to you.

What is most interesting is where you take this thread. In a topic concerning drug cartels financing a large army, your conculsions go from..

jacking up the price of all these substances through a series of interesting policy decisions
to
sending money to criminals and to support criminal enterprises and support the breakdown of order in our society
to
removing a fair number of potential non-Republican voters from the voter rolls
to
being a popular way of waging class warfare against the underclasses.

Would your conclusion be then that, if the government had not jacked up the prices of illegal drugs, no problem would exist? That seems to be what your are suggesting.

Quite a leap there. The reasons drug cartels have a lot of money is because our government (under Bush surely), raised the prices, allowed the sending money to criminals and waged class warfare against the underclasses.....and you are shocked that I or anyone would call it another rant of republican conspiracy rhetoric?  Don't be.....
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


17 posted 03-06-2009 06:05 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, as far as the evil Republicans trying to keep Democrats from voting, there are actually laws governing voter registrations in the United States, Bob. Democrats in several areas ignored these laws. Republicans insisted that they follow the laws. does that make the republicans evil? One of the instances your CNN link gave was the case of Jennifer Brunner in Ohio. Here are the Ohio voter registrations laws:

OHIO

You must:

    * Be a citizen of the United States
    * Be a resident of Ohio for at least 30 days before an election
    * Be 18 years old on or before election day. If you will be 18 on or before the day of the general election, you may vote in the primary election for candidates only.
    * Not be convicted of a felony and currently incarcerated
    * Not be found incompetent by a court for purposes of voting

They seem to be straighforward enough, right? This is what happened and what republicans challenged:

Between January 1, 2008 and mid-October 2008, over 666,000 Ohioans registered to vote either for the first time or with updated voter information, and over 200,000 of them provided driver's licenses or Social Security numbers that do not match government records. Over 20% of these voters are from Cuyahoga County, which is heavily Democratic.[164] Also, many of the newly registered voters were the result of voter registration drives to register voters for Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton for the March 4, 2008 Ohio Democratic primary http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Brunner

So, she basically ignored the requirements to get hundreds of thousands of pro-democratic voters to have their votes counted and the republicans contested that. Is that was made the republicans evil.?

Ohio was just one instance. There were others. Undoubtedly Republicans wanted pro-democratic voters off the ballots while democrats wanted them on, the difference being that republicans were insisted on the laws being followed while democrats were insisting they did not have to follow them. If the situation were reversed, no doubt millions of democrats (possibly including yourself) would be screaming dirty republican tricks.  As it stood, howver, it was democrats screaming that Republicans were trying to squelch democratic votes.

Let me put it to you this way......

Mother: Billy, you can't do that. it's against the rules.
Billy:  I don't care. I want to do it, anyway.
Mother: Sorry, you can't.

Seems straightforward enough, no. Under your scenario, though, in the third line Mother should be saying, "Well, ok. Go ahead them, Billy, if it gets you what you want."

......and i'm still trying to make the jump between drug cartel cash and voter registrations....perhaps you could suggest that I take a flying leap

Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


18 posted 03-06-2009 10:20 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

          No, it didn't make the Republicans evil.  

     However, what the Republicans were indulging in was voter purging.  That is, they were selectively going through voter lists and challenging specifically Democratic voters in an effort to swing the election toward their way.  In Florida, for example, their voter cadging lists contained almost no Hispanic names.  In Florida, a disproportionate number of folks with Hispanic last names tend to vote Republican...

     In Ohio, the Republican Challenges ran into legal problems and was thrown out by the United States Supreme court on October 17, 2008.  The method that the Republicans wished to use to get the Democratic voters to "follow the Rules" as you say" was actually against the law.  The State was supposed to be using Federal data bases only as a last resort, and the Republicans simply didn't see it that way.  Alas for the Republicans, that's the way the law way actually written; and despite the somewhat loose way the Republicans have been trying to play with the constitution in recent years, even the Supremes wouldn't let this one go by.  

     After making several face saving statements blaming the Democrats for everything and taking a mild backhanded swipe at the Supreme court, the Republicans dropped the matter.  The Harrumphs resounded through the halls of government for weeks.

     I must thank you for the reference link.  If you hadn't given it, I wouldn't have been able to read the part of the story you thought you might omit as not worth telling us.  I simply picked up where you thought it prudent to stop.
You also neglected to mention the many awards that the current Secretary of State in Ohio has gotten for courage and integrity.  I thought they were quite impressive, myself.  I do hope she wins that Senate race she's going to be trying for.  We need good Senators.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven

By the way, I'll be out of town for about a week.  I'll try to keep up on the reading of what goes on here, but I probably won't have much time for writing responses.


Juju
Member Elite
since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


19 posted 03-06-2009 11:05 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

The Drug Gangs are roughly on par with the Mexican army. When I was down in Mexico I talked to one of the coastal patrols briefly.  As US citizens we have no idea of war on our grounds.  I was reading an article and they believe that the war will be entering the US by 2010 and reach the low mid west and gulf coast areas in the next ten years.  It is really bad.  

I compare drugs to not buckling your seat belt.  If someone doesn't see immediate consequences to buying drugs, they really don't care if the money is used to murder and kill inocent poeple.

Juju

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


20 posted 03-07-2009 01:04 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Then I'll put in the part you omitted, Bob, that the case was thrown out on a technicality, not that the charges weren't valid but because the republican party didn't have the authority to bring them. Yes, even when the miranda act is not read, a murderer can walk away free but it still doesn't make him less of a murderer. It was very obvious that Ohio did NOT follow the rules of their own state with regards to voter regulations.

Now, if you want to talk about REAL sleaze in that category, check out how hard the democrats tried to have the ballots thrown out on technicalities of the servicemen overseas voting on absentee ballots. They knew that the military vote was heavily favored in Bush's direction and did what they could to get the votes thrown out of the people who were actually fighting for our country. Now THAT is something you can hold your nose at....
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


21 posted 03-07-2009 01:10 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Well
Juju at least seems
to still be on subject here . . .

Maybe the ostrich
should be the national bird

.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


22 posted 03-07-2009 03:07 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Huan Yi,

          For the second time in this thread and for the third time on this site, I suggest you try out this link.

http://smallwarsjournal.com/documents/killebrewgangs.pdf  
     I am not trying to send you there because it is a pro-Democratic link, Huan Yi.  I am sending you there because it is very much on subject and because it takes much of what you're talking about and give it additional depth and breadth, not necessarily to my advantage at all.  I am suggesting it in the interest of completeness and in in the interest of getting what is for me a position I find uncomfortable out there because it seems well written and convincingly portrayed.

     It seems particularly weird to me that it's something that you would probably find congenial that I'm having the most difficulty getting you to give a look, let alone an objective hearing.

     My idea is that it's the truth that we're supposed to be looking for.  I don't particularly care who voices it as long as it's well researched and decently presented.

     If you think these guys are stupid, say so, and I'll let the matter drop; but I think they make a disturbing amount of sense.  They may not have everything right, but I'd like to know what you think.

Yours, Bob Kaven
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


23 posted 03-07-2009 03:24 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

           Harrumph!  Harrumph!   The Republicans said the same thing for several weeks.  Despite all the throat clearing, they didn't refile charges did they?  They knew that they were in the wrong, and that the charges they were bringing were on phony grounds.  They knew that they were required by Federal election law to give 90 notice and they didn't.  They knew that they were supposed to use Federal data bases only as a last resort and they turned to them right away.  These aren't technicalities, Mike, these are intentional acts that were illegal by Federal law.  The Republican Party has a history of doing this sort of thing, as you know well from looking at the other articles whose links I gave.

     It's a pity you haven't read any of the Greg Palast books.  He doesn't particularly like the Clintons, either, though since he's compiled his books mostly over the past ten years or so the concentration is more on the Republicans.  He still has some stuff about the Democrats to say as well, especially in New Mexico, for example, that you might enjoy.  His stuff about the Florida elections is very interesting reading.

     See you next week.  Best to you and everybody else here.  Bob Kaven
rwood
Member Elite
since 02-29-2000
Posts 3797
Tennessee


24 posted 03-08-2009 08:46 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Hmm. The subject has an old feel to it, different name and geographical location, but a common vein no less.

I remember when the Navy declared war on all vessels in the Gulf and Atlantic, trying to thwart the drug traffic from Cuba.

One morning in 1982, we went to the beach and the shore was littered with plastic bags filled with dope. Seems they had been tossed overboard to avoid possession. People of all walks were grabbing them and running off the beach. We ran away empty-handed and didn't look back!!!

"Scarface" and "Miami Vice," along with few new real-time horrific drug lords were born.

Are Russia and Mexico still buddies??

Hmm.

  
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> Mexico   [ Page: 1  2  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors