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Passions in Poetry

How can we debate Beavis and Butthead?

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Local Rebel
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0 posted 02-26-2009 09:14 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

So what did Bobby Jindal choose to ridicule in this response to Obama last night? Volcano monitoring, of course.

And leaving aside the chutzpah of casting the failure of his own party’s governance as proof that government can’t work, does he really think that the response to natural disasters like Katrina is best undertaken by uncoordinated private action? Hey, why bother having an army? Let’s just rely on self-defense by armed citizens.

The intellectual incoherence is stunning. Basically, the political philosophy of the GOP right now seems to consist of snickering at stuff that they think sounds funny. The party of ideas has become the party of Beavis and Butthead.

      Paul Krugman



quote:

"In a moment when only the federal government is actually big enough to do stuff, to just ignore all that and just say 'government is the problem, corruption, earmarks, wasteful spending,' it's just a form of nihilism.... I think it's insane, and I just think it's a disaster for the party."


David Brooks




How can there be an honest debate if the substance is pushed aside for a conversation where a "magnetic levitating train from Disneyland to Las Vegas" -- a complete fabrication -- honeybee "insurance", "golf carts" and so on is the way one side wants to frame the issues.  This really is locker-room nonsense -- the kind of stuff the jocks always do to the 'smart kids' to make fun of them.

Is that what the Republican Party has become?  

quote:

(Nate): If it sounds like Jindal is targeting his speech to a room full of fourth graders, that's because he is. They might be the next people to actually vote for Republicans again.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/02/obama-joint-session-and-jindal-reply.html



Ron
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1 posted 02-26-2009 10:16 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
[1] ... does he really think that the response to natural disasters like Katrina is best undertaken by uncoordinated private action?

[2] In a moment when only the federal government is actually big enough to do stuff ...

[3] How can there be an honest debate if the substance is pushed aside for a conversation where a "magnetic levitating train from Disneyland to Las Vegas" -- a complete fabrication -- honeybee "insurance", "golf carts" and so on is the way one side wants to frame the issues.

[4] They might be the next people to actually vote for Republicans again.


[1] I think it's worth exploring, even with the biasing adjective. I see no reason to think uncoordinated private action would be any less effective than uncoordinated government action?

[2] It scares the hell out of me anyone would even think to say that.

[3] And I don't see any particular inanity here either. The big picture is determined by details, after all.

[4] More cheap shots. Seemingly of the same kind being targeted by this post?

I guess I'm missing your point, Reb?
Balladeer
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2 posted 02-26-2009 10:39 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Perhaps because there is no point to miss, Ron...just Reb, getting in a little target practice with borrowed bullets.

Maybe because it's been too quiet here for the past, er, day?
Brad
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3 posted 02-26-2009 11:49 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Given that I'm not sure what you, Ron, and Mike are talking about, I'm a little confused (again).

Government can work. The Great Society proved that until Nixon (see my post that show the numbers).

Given that that's its own thread, I wonder if, maybe, it's time to think about what's best for the country.

Is that a wrong way to go?

Personally, I'm tired of GOPer's and, yes, Libertarians, thinking ideology. It's a way of avoiding responsibility.

Let the Dems take the hit. At least they're willing to try.

Balladeer
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4 posted 02-26-2009 12:33 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Brad, which side you do you feel is not thinking about what's best for the country?
Brad
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5 posted 02-26-2009 12:43 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

You got me, Mike. I am being unfair. If there is anything that we all agree on, it is the best interests of the United States of America (and that includes the crazy Brits and those silly Canucks).

My apologies.

Mysteria
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6 posted 02-26-2009 01:21 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

I may not be as smart as you people in here, and admire your intelligence.   I read this thread every day, and learn from all of you so thank you.  However, I had to speak to this.

Brad!  I am silly           honest, ask anyone, and Carpe' Diem is my motto.  However, I care about my country, and my neighbours to the South, as they dictate what happens to me up here.  I have to tell you, and I hate to repeat this,but I picked Obama for President before he was even a senator, there are threads here to support that.  Everyone laughed at me,and at him.

I like that Louisiana Governor big time too as the main thing I got out of his speech was that he planned to work WITH the current administration.  I saw more in common than not, especially on energy solutions, and job creation.  For the first time at least in my life, I am seeing that everyone is worried, and finally working together.  

As for private sector jumping in if there is another hurricane, why not?  If I saw a boat, I could care less if it has insurance trust me if I could save someone!

Reb: Hope you are well but as for Beavis and Butthead, these two don't have to work at being cool, they most assuredly are.      

Hey, but that is just the opinion of a silly Canuck that believes there truly is hope in this latest government, and I am proud to be here to see it.

I can't wait until our resident Cajun Mardi Gras Gal shows up and gives her take on Jindal.
Brad
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7 posted 02-26-2009 02:16 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

You know what cracks me up?

When some one asks me,  "Who is America's number one ally?"

For me, the answer is always the same: "Canada!"

Why?

Because you're just like us only different.

It's not funny, I just find it funny.
Balladeer
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8 posted 02-26-2009 02:18 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I think the governor is a decent sort. He has a great record and list of accomplishments. Personall, I didn't care for his comments because (1) he DID sound like Al Gore, talking slowly to people to make sure they understood him and (2) reading a rebuttal created before Obama's speech, which would omit the questionable points which would be brought out in the Obama speech. I would have liked for him to address the incredible comment "I am not for bigger government!" proudly stated by Obama, which caused laughing fits all over the country, I'm sure. Even George Will, arguably the most intelligent, and non-biased political commentator alive, came out and said that it was a "bold-faced lie".

Be all of that as it may, disagreement with Jindal's delivery should not come to the conculsion that the "political philosophy of the Republican party is snickering" or the other comments and insults which LR was pleased to provide us with. Perhaps it's just a small attempt to take the attention from Obama's speech and aim it at Jindal, for some reason....or maybe it's just a little touch of rebel rabble rousing
Balladeer
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9 posted 02-26-2009 02:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No doubt, Brad. Canada IS our number one ally...as long as skates and a small round puck are not involved!
Brad
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10 posted 02-26-2009 02:44 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Yeah Mike,

But you don't have to answer the question the same way I have to (maybe you did but not now).

I stand by my country. I stand by my allies. I don't care how long I live here. I can say what I like, I can say what I don't (and I do).

I can say I live in a great country (Korea).

I am free here too.

Balladeer
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11 posted 02-26-2009 02:53 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Not sure why you posted that, Brad. There's is certainly nothing there I disagree with.

We all have those rights and none of us have to answer any questions we don't want to, no matter where we live....and we all have the right to voice our opinions. I respect yours..
Local Rebel
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12 posted 02-26-2009 02:57 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Ron
[1]
So, then you're prepared to call the fire department and tell them not to come help you if your house catches on fire?  You're just going to gather up a few neighbors with buckets instead?  

Shirley you jest.  The party that's mantra is 'government doesn't work' points to it's own ineffectiveness to prove its' point?

[2]
It makes me feel better that only the Federal Government (translation -- We the People) are big enough to do things like print money, control a monetary system, wage war, gaurantee the rights of individuals.  

Let's take a look at what happens when the private sector does what 'We the People' should be doing:

quote:

As many as 5,000 children in Pennsylvania have been found guilty, and up to 2,000 of them jailed, by two corrupt judges who received kickbacks from the builders and owners of private prison facilities that benefited. The two judges pleaded guilty in a stunning case of greed and corruption that is still unfolding. Judges Mark A. Ciavarella Jr. and Michael T. Conahan received $2.6 million in kickbacks while imprisoning children who often had no access to a lawyer. The case offers an extraordinary glimpse into the shameful private prison industry that is flourishing in the United States.

Take the story of Jamie Quinn. When she was 14 years old, she was imprisoned for almost a year. Jamie, now 18, described the incident that led to her incarceration:

  “I got into an argument with one of my friends. And all that happened was just a basic fight. She slapped me in the face, and I did the same thing back. There [were] no marks, no witnesses, nothing. It was just her word against my word.”

  Jamie was placed in one of the two controversial facilities, PA Child Care, then bounced around to several other locations. The 11-month imprisonment had a devastating impact on her. She told me: “People looked at me different when I came out, thought I was a bad person, because I was gone for so long. My family started splitting up ... because I was away and got locked up. I’m still struggling in school, because the schooling system in facilities like these places [are] just horrible.”

  She began cutting herself, blaming medication that she was forced to take: “I was never depressed, I was never put on meds before. I went there, and they just started putting meds on me, and I didn’t even know what they were. They said if I didn’t take them, I wasn’t following my program.” She was hospitalized three times.




[3]
Then let's talk about the details instead of propagada-style half-truths.

Why shouldn't we be investing in Mag-lev trains?

Why shouldn'te we be replacing Federal vehicle fleets with electric vehicles and encouraging people to buy low speed electric vechicles for urban use (or whatever they might want to use them for -- including golf Mike)

Why shouldn't we be protecting our agricultural sector that depends on bee polenization?

I'd be happy to discuss the ISSUES.

[4]
Bobby Jindal was a promising political leader emerging in the Republican party -- a vital voice in our American democracy -- but the Republican leadership has absolutely ruined his introduction to the American people because of they way they prepped him for this event -- so that now he is a national joke.

This is not a shot at Bobby Jindal -- but at the Republican leadership that is failing to lead anywhere but into oblivion at the moment.
Ron
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13 posted 02-26-2009 04:35 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Perhaps because there is no point to miss, Ron...just Reb, getting in a little target practice with borrowed bullets.

I don't know, Mike. If we were going to talk about posters instead of posts, which of course we're not going to do, I would say that was probably more characteristic of you than of Reb?

quote:
Brad, which side you do you feel is not thinking about what's best for the country?

Which ever side doesn't agree with me, of course.  

quote:
[1] So, then you're prepared to call the fire department and tell them not to come help you if your house catches on fire?  You're just going to gather up a few neighbors with buckets instead?

Reb, if I call the fire department and they show up a month later, yea, I'll probably start talking to a few neighbors about possible alternatives.

More to the point, though, what I said was that it's worth exploring. I don't think we should ever just assume the Federal government is always the answer to a social problem.

quote:
[2] Let's take a look at what happens when the private sector does what 'We the People' should be doing:

What, you want to trade horror stories on what happens when people stop caring about each other? You really think that's limited to the private sector, Reb?

Don't get me wrong. I agree there are a few things best done by a limited and strictly overseen government. Very few. It's hard to get too excited, though, over "things like print money, control a monetary system, wage war, and guarantee the rights of individuals" when the government has pretty much screwed every one of those things up badly.

Again, however, what we were actually talking about, Reb, was whether "only the Federal government is actually big enough to do stuff." And even if I don't want my neighbor locking up kids in his basement, I'm still mortified someone would say something like that.

quote:
[3] Then let's talk about the details instead of propagada-style half-truths.

We have been, Reb. We have been.

You can't really escape the cheap sound bites, though. The trouble with your originating post, however, is that I don't think you even tried.

quote:
[4] This is not a shot at Bobby Jindal -- but at the Republican leadership that is failing to lead anywhere but into oblivion at the moment.

Take a look at the country right now, Reb. Seems to me the American leadership has been doing a pretty bad job for a pretty long time. You want to blame the Republicans for that? Fine. What you're actually saying to me is that the Democrats were too inept to exercise any power of their own OR the American people were too stupid to make the right choices.

You'll probably find I generally agree with all three of those points? If our goal is to lay blame, it ain't going to be all that hard to find culpable targets. And they sure won't all be Republicans, either.


Balladeer
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14 posted 02-26-2009 04:56 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

If we were going to talk about posters instead of posts, which of course we're not going to do, I would say that was probably more characteristic of you than of Reb?

That's right, Ron, and that's why I know you will appreciate the NEW me who doesn't do things like that.
Balladeer
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15 posted 02-26-2009 05:02 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

This is not a shot at Bobby Jindal (why, then, is he featured so prominently in your initiation of this thread?) -- but at the Republican leadership that is failing to lead anywhere but into oblivion at the moment. The republican party is not in power. They are not leading anywhere at all. As Pelosi said, they won the election and they are in charge. If you can explain how the republican party is leading the country into oblivion, being the minority party, I'd like to hear it.
Huan Yi
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16 posted 02-26-2009 05:30 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

“Mr. Obama, on the other hand, routinely ascribes to others views they don't espouse and says opposition to his policies is grounded in views no one really advocates.

On Tuesday night, Mr. Obama told Congress and the nation, "I reject the view that . . . says government has no role in laying the foundation for our common prosperity." Who exactly has that view? Certainly not congressional Republicans, who believe that through reasonable tax cuts, fiscal restraint, and prudent monetary policies government contributes to prosperity.

Mr. Obama also said that America's economic difficulties resulted when "regulations were gutted for the sake of a quick profit at the expense of a healthy market." Who gutted which regulations?

Perhaps it was President Bill Clinton who, along with then Treasury Secretary Larry Summers, removed restrictions on banks owning insurance companies in 1999. If so, were Mr. Clinton and Mr. Summers (now an Obama adviser) motivated by quick profit, or by the belief that the reform was necessary to modernize our financial industry?

Perhaps Mr. Obama was talking about George W. Bush. But Mr. Bush spent five years pushing to further regulate Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. He was blocked by Democratic Sen. Chris Dodd and Rep. Barney Frank. Arriving in the Senate in 2005, Mr. Obama backed up Mr. Dodd's threat to filibuster Mr. Bush's needed reforms.

Even in an ostensibly nonpartisan speech marking Lincoln's 200th birthday, Mr. Obama used a straw-man argument, decrying "a philosophy that says every problem can be solved if only government would step out of the way; that if government were just dismantled, divvied up into tax breaks, and handed out to the wealthiest among us, it would somehow benefit us all. Such knee-jerk disdain for government -- this constant rejection of any common endeavor -- cannot rebuild our levees or our roads or our bridges."  Whose philosophy is this?”

There are more examples which you can read yourself:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123561484923478287.html


The point is Obama has been making characterizations that have no basis in fact.
As if he has saved and needs us now
to continue supporting him against some another
Elders of Zion.  Well, as Rove asks, just exactly who are these people?

.


.  
Grinch
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17 posted 02-26-2009 05:30 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Mike,

I took it to mean that the Republican leadership was leading the Republican party into oblivion.

I don’t actually see it like that though - I agree that they’re not doing themselves any favours by following a policy of critical rhetoric instead of presenting a cohesive and credible alternative - but oblivion sounds a bit of an exaggeration.

As far as Jindal’s speech goes, it was less than impressive but that’s the first time I’ve seen him in action, I for one am willing to give him a second chance and write this one off as an off day.

Balladeer
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18 posted 02-26-2009 05:37 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You could be right, grinch. It's hard to tell by the way it is written. A liberal complaining about the self-destruction of the Republican party would be a new slant. Your views on Jindal are right on and very fair.

John, you are re-iterating facts liberals would rather ignore...as yours will be.
Grinch
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19 posted 02-26-2009 06:12 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

That’s a good example of what I was talking about Huan, Rove wasted a whole page criticising Obama while completely failing to offer an alternative.

When it comes to choosing between an idea that might work and no idea at all which one do you choose?

Huan Yi
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20 posted 02-26-2009 06:40 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Rove's point was about Obama
creating a myth; a "them",
a fantasy enemy of the people
to help him strive against.
That's what Rove was talking about.


And by the way, you just used the same tactic:

“When it comes to choosing between an idea that might work and no idea at all which one do you choose?”

From the article:

“During his news conference on Feb. 9, Mr. Obama decried an unnamed faction in the congressional stimulus debate as "a set of folks who -- I don't doubt their sincerity -- who just believe that we should do nothing."

Who were these sincere do-nothings? Every House Republican voted for an alternative stimulus plan, evidence that they wanted to do something. Every Senate Republican -- with the exception of Judd Gregg, who'd just withdrawn his nomination to be Mr. Obama's Commerce secretary and therefore voted "present" -- voted for alternative stimulus proposals.”


John
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21 posted 02-26-2009 06:42 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

When it comes to choosing between an idea that might work and no idea at all which one do you choose?

Wow..there's a question that could require some bandwidth to answer!

First, one has to determine if an action is necessary. Second, one has to weigh the consequences of action against non-action.

If you are speeding up to an intersection where the light is about to change, do you speed up or slow down? if you speed up and beat the light, you could save time. If you slow down, you will lose time. If you speed up, there's a chance you may be involved in an accident. If you slow down, the chances are better you won't. If your wife is about to give birth, you are more likely to speed up, since time is of the essence. If you're going to the store for beer (oh, bad example because you may STILL speed up!)er, for popcorn, you may slow down because it wouldn't be worth the risk.

When considering a plan that MIGHT work, weigh the consequences of what would happen if it DOESN'T work. If the "might" outweighs the consequences of the "doesn't" then go for it. If the "doesn't" would be detrimental enough to overshadow the possibility of the "might", why do it?

That is the situation we have here. Obama claims "crisis of such magnitude that the country could fall without immediate action".
Republicans disagree. Democrats believe more government and higher taxes are necessary. Republicans believe less taxes and less government is the answer. Who is right? Democrats will point to FDR and the New Deal. Republicans will point to Reagan bringing the country out of recession with his methods.

To take action when the actions are primarily chances which may or may not work, one may as well play poker and never fold. If you're lucky, you'll win. If not, you're broke. If this "action" doesn't work, we are broke. Well, we are broke now...better to say, our future generations will be broke with an inherited debt they will not be able to handle.

Is it worth it? The light is getting ready to change......
Grinch
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22 posted 02-26-2009 07:06 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Huan,

quote:
That's what Rove was talking about


Fine, but until he starts talking about what the Republicans would do instead of what Obama might do everyone will carry on listening to Obama.

As far as the article goes he's one of the do-nothings - because he's offering no alternative.

Grinch
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23 posted 02-26-2009 07:35 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
First, one has to determine if an action is necessary.


That’s absolutely true Mike and that decision, rightly or wrongly, has already been made, the people decided action was necessary when they listened to Obama’s plan and voted him into office. The Republicans can’t sit on their hands and ignore that fact, they have to start communicating what action they’d take. In-action or a failure to communicate their plan of action just equates to the perception that they’re a bunch of do-nothings in the face of an electorate that wants somebody to do something.

You know and I know that the Republicans must have an alternative plan but do we ever hear it? No, instead they take pot shots at the other guy’s plan. They make vague references to smaller government and lower taxes but don’t expand on how they’d get to the point where smaller government and lower taxes is even a remote possibility.

quote:
To take action when the actions are primarily chances which may or may not work, one may as well play poker and never fold.


And if you do nothing and fold every hand you’ll lose all your cash in the blinds.

The people believe that it’s time to pick a hand and go all in Mike and if the Republicans don‘t show their cards soon Obama‘s hand looks like the favourite.
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24 posted 02-26-2009 08:03 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

And if you do nothing and fold every hand you’ll lose all your cash in the blinds.

True enough...if you are foolish enough to get in the game.


I don't disagree with you about the republicans, grinch. I have found them to be very disappointing, also. They point out the fallacies of the Obama plan but they do not offer alternatives. We have a democratic congress and president because they did not fight, did not present themselves well enough to gain the confidence of the American people. They had better clean up their act if they ever expect to regain the leadership.
 
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