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How can we debate Beavis and Butthead?

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Balladeer
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75 posted 03-05-2009 12:16 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

and then pay it down in the good times when the investments are paying off. Where are you going to find that interest-free loan? Since even Obama claims the payoffs may not come for years down the road, you better not have interest accruing.

don't do it for stupid stuff Really!? Does that apply to Obama, who has given new meaning to "bringing home the bacon"?

borrow as much as you can for as long as you can. Thanks, reb, for that demonstration of the Democratic mind-set. I must have been a real Democrat for the first 20 years of my adult life, then. No wonder I was always in debt!

Thanks also for demonstrating my point about the class warfare on the way....you have gotten a head start with your "evil rich" continual comments. Democratic politicians like Gore, Kerry, Edwards, Pelosi, Kennedy, etc leave their multi-million dollar homes in the morning, jump into their helicopters or limousines and get to D.C, where they can complain about the rich and champion the poor. Bravo.....

I'll say it one more time for those with impaired eyesight.....we will have to wait and see what happens. then we'll know..
Local Rebel
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76 posted 03-05-2009 12:25 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

don't do it for stupid stuff Really!? Does that apply to Obama, who has given new meaning to "bringing home the bacon"?



Show me the bacon....

(does it have anything to do with Bee insurance or golf carts?  because you already said you're in favor of them)

quote:

Thanks, reb, for that demonstration of the Democratic mind-set



Then I guess Donald Trump is a Democrat?  It's just business school 101 Mike -- if you're going to use borrowed money-- you want the longest terms possible.

The class war was started by the Federalists Mike.... perpetuated by the Robber Barons -- taken on by Teddy R.  and FDR -- Supply sided by the great one -- Renaldus Maximus -- And -- now taken on again by Barack Obama.

We don't need to wait to see Mike -- in order to study history and learn from it.
Balladeer
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77 posted 03-05-2009 12:39 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Show you the bacon? Ask the democrats in the senate who are now agreeing that there is way too much bacon in the plan and are suggesting the line item veto to clear it up and make it more palatable. Check out the video of Obama the candidate, where he claims the country needs an entitlements clean-up and, as president, he will go through every bill, line by line, to ensure no entitlements get through. At last count, he's missed in the vicinity of 8,600 of them.

Learn from history? I do...by looking at Carter and Reagan. Of course, when you look at them you will see Carter as the shining knight and Reagen as Darth Vader, I'm sure. You are good at displaying statistics. Pull up Carter's and let's discuss his brilliance.

I don't know if Trump is a Democrat or not but I would guess he is, since he's declared bankruptcy several times, the last being two weeks ago. maybe he flunked business school 101? Or maybe that's what you advocate....working your way to bankruptcies?
Local Rebel
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78 posted 03-05-2009 08:56 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Hmmm.. I'm not sure how the subject of bankruptcy comes in here -- unless you're refering to the Republicans being bankrupt of ideas?

Conservative media giant Tribune Co. going bankrupt?

The Republicans rooting for the American auto industry to go bankrupt?

Personally -- I'm completely in favor of bankruptcy -- it's a much more civil method than debtors prisons or workhouses.  Thomas Jefferson filed 5 times.  And it's another part of the safety net that stimulates the economy by encouraging people to innovate and walk the high wire.

quote:

Show you the bacon? Ask the democrats in the senate who are now agreeing that there is way too much bacon in the plan and are suggesting the line item veto to clear it up and make it more palatable. Check out the video of Obama the candidate, where he claims the country needs an entitlements clean-up and, as president, he will go through every bill, line by line, to ensure no entitlements get through. At last count, he's missed in the vicinity of 8,600 of them.



It seems you're co-mingling some things here Mike.  Are you talking about the stimulus package now?  Or the budget proposal?  If you're talking about earmarks and not 'entitlements', then -- candidate Obama only said he wanted to keep them down to what was it? 1996 levels... or was it 1994?  I don't recall and don't have time to look it up.  How about if you do that for me and get back with those numbers vs. what's in the budget proposal.

Hey -- if Carter wanted to use a 1.6 trillion dollar credit card I'm sure he could have made the economy look rosy too!  
Balladeer
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79 posted 03-05-2009 04:48 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Hmmm.. I'm not sure how the subject of bankruptcy comes in here -- unless you're refering to the Republicans being bankrupt of ideas?

Ok, reb, apparently we've degenerated to comments like that so we've probably reached the end of the road as far as anything worthwhile being said. You can save your goading for a future time where it may be necessary to use it again. We both have better things to do than continue this one.

Time will tell how this grand plan will work out. We will just have to wait for the scorecard.
Local Rebel
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80 posted 03-05-2009 11:03 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Hey Mike... did you read the title?  We were degenerates from the start?  

But, you said;
quote:

Control the press and you control the country because for every independent thinker out there, there are 50 so mindless their brains are nothing but sound bytes and headlines from what they see and hear.



So.... why not give me something more than a line that will fit on a bumper sticker? -- If you want to talk about the 3 billion in earmarks put into the Omnibus Spending Bill by Republicans -- I'm all ears!

That's roughly 40% of the 7.7 billion in earmarks (note -- Congress is roughly 40% Republican)-- which is 100 million short of candidate Obama's pledge to keep it below 1994 earmark levels -- you know -- before the Republicans blew up the earmarks by 300 percent.

But, anyway -- just because something is an earmark doesn't mean that it's necessarily wasteful spending -- perhaps not even the acutal Pork Project to study swine odor and manure management in Iowa and North Carolina and -- anywhere else they raise swine.  (must be a big project in D.C.?)((And, thinking about it -- I can understand why they need this big time in Iowa -- what with the Caucases every 4 years))

Give me a list -- what's wasteful?  Why?
Bob K
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81 posted 03-06-2009 04:01 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

           If they're about to study the smell and effects of pig waste in Iowa, I can tell you it's about time.  I lived in Iowa City for a couple of years, and there were plenty of farms about.  The entire state is one giant feed lot — or it was at the time — set up for the fattening up and slaughter of pigs and some cows.  If you went very far into the country, the stench was unbelievable in places, and the effuvia from the pigs, the oorts and the ejecta and the various more unmentionable stuff really had no place to go.

     That part of the Midwest is flat.  I mean ironing board flat.  There was a big flood one of the years I was there and the Iowa River overflowed its banks.  The drinking was wasn't really fit to, being filled with various porcine and a little bit of human waste material that washed down from the feed lots.  It all washed into the water supplies, and the local water supplies ran into the Mississippi and the Mississippi ran into the Gulf of Mexico.  

     There was no particular place where the fishing industry was helped more than anyplace else, or where the disease rate went down more than anywhere else or where the infectious diseases went down more than anyplace else, or where the meat and produce supply actually got better than anyplace else.

     In fact, they pretty much all went down the tubes.

     The Beavis and Buttbead snickering about this is the quick reaction that a lot of these problems get, simply because nobody actually stops to think that there might actually be something of a real issue there.  Just another quick Snickerfest.  Doesn't help the price of meat go down in Florida one penny, Mike, nor the price of produce.  Nor does pretending there isn't a problem actually affect the health of anybody downstream.  Nor does it make your seafood any cheaper.

     Right?

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
Huan Yi
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82 posted 03-11-2009 12:21 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“Imagine a child falls down a well. Now imagine I offer to lend the parents my ladder to save her, but only if they promise to paint my house. Would you applaud me for not letting a crisis go to waste? Or would you think I’m a jerk, for want of a harsher word not printable in this space?

I ask because I’m trying to come to terms with Rule No. 1 of the Obama administration


“Rule 1: Never allow a crisis to go to waste,” White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel told the New York Times right after the election. “They are opportunities to do big things.” Over the weekend, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton told an audience at the European Parliament, “Never waste a good crisis.” Then President Obama explained in his Saturday radio and Internet address that there is “great opportunity in the midst of” the “great crisis” befalling America. . . .


In other realms of life, exploiting a crisis for your own purposes is an outrage. If a business uses a hurricane warning to price-gouge on vital supplies, it is a crime. When a liberal administration does it, it’s taking advantage of a historic opportunity.

Obama’s defenders respond to this argument by stating that the president’s motives are decent, noble, and pure. He wants to help the uninsured and the poorly educated. He wants to make good on his vow to halt those rising oceans.

But this is just a rationalization. Every president thinks his agenda is what’s best for the country; every politician believes his motives are noble. The point is that scaring people about X in order to achieve Y is fundamentally undemocratic”

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=Y2Y5ZWI3MmRjOTljZDY5NjBiNTUxYWQxODE4NTFhOTE=


This has bothered me as well.  I think for example at least some of the market’s decline can be traced
To the fear mongering by the Obama administration.
.
Local Rebel
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83 posted 03-11-2009 01:46 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

In Chinese, John, the word for crisis -- as you may have heard -- is 'weiji' -- which was mis-characterized by John Kennedy in a speech to consist of two characters -- one being danger and the other opportunity.

In reality -- the second character is more appropriately interpreted as the 'critical point'.  But, this mischarictarization has long since been popularized in the Western world as it was picked up by Nixon and then business and media consultants.

Either way -- when this (allegedly number one rule) is invoked by the administration the more appropriate interpretation is that this critical point (opportunity) should not be wasted to fix the problems in our system that led us to this peril. Else -- the danger lurks perpetually.
Ron
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84 posted 03-11-2009 02:04 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
“Imagine a child falls down a well. Now imagine I offer to lend the parents my ladder to save her, but only if they promise to paint my house. Would you applaud me for not letting a crisis go to waste? Or would you think I’m a jerk, for want of a harsher word not printable in this space?"

The analogy is flawed, John.

Imagine that your child falls down a well. Do you really think anyone is going to criticize you for taking that opportunity to give your kid a lecture on safety?

The flaw, of course, is that the Administration isn't responding to someone else's child. It's their country, too. While taking advantage of another person's woe is contemptible, trying to turn your own crisis into an opportunity can only be admired. And, I would hope, emulated.


Huan Yi
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85 posted 03-11-2009 02:22 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Ron,

The problem is the assumption of actual identification with,
(as opposed to apart from), the one(s) at peril by
those doing the exploiting.

John

Ron
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86 posted 03-11-2009 04:28 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Those doing the exploiting? I think you're confusing your own assumptions with mine, John.

Are you suggesting the leaders of America aren't Americans?
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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Waukegan


87 posted 03-11-2009 07:40 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

Both Patricians and Plebeians
were Roman Ron


.

Ron
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88 posted 03-11-2009 10:15 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Yes, they were, John. And your point? I'm sure you're not suggesting that either class of citizen didn't love their country?

Just out of curiosity, who do you see as the aristocracy in America? LOL.
Huan Yi
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89 posted 03-13-2009 08:33 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“Over two-thirds of voters believe members of Congress are more interested in helping their own careers than in helping the American people.”

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123690358175013837.html


.
Local Rebel
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90 posted 03-13-2009 03:18 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

John... are you sure you didn't mean to post that last item on Mike's Congress-bashing thread?

There are some interesting things in the news though that are pertinent to THIS thread -- some enterprising soul might want to try to figure what I'm talking about -- try the latest news on Micheal Steel, Rush Limbaugh, and Mike Huckabee's huckster Chuck Norris (re: Texas is gonna do it again)
Bob K
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91 posted 03-17-2009 06:45 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Huan Yi,

           But only those who were Knights with at least a certain fixed large amount of money were allowed to be Senators.  Not enough money in the family coffers, they were out on their ears.  And if you think elections today are corrupt, you've been missing some vital historical vitamins.  Senatorial seats were important in themselves, but also because they were the gateway to truly spectacular  graft and often robbery and murder on a grand scale.  

     A glance at the Romans makes today look calm and regular.  

     It also tends to suggest that oligarchs remain oligarchs whether the name is Caesar or Bush.

     In our case, however, we can vote the senators and the congressional representatives out of office if their popularity actually remains as low as you report it being. The Romans didn't have that legislative option, though some other offices were open to the vote.

     As for the crisis that so upsets you, it seems to have taken quite a while to develop.  It may be a crisis now, but it wasn't when the web of regulation that had prevented it since the great depression was being undone by those who felt that there was too much government regulation, and that it was tying the hands of business.  Indeed it was.  It was apparently preventing business from doing this sort of thing.  From having banks own insurance companies and vice versa.  From charging usurious interest rates so they might extend credit beyond those places where credit should be extended.

     When folks warned that the economy was in danger from such policies, the Republican response was to say "Are YOU hurting?"  and to ask if the stock market had shown any signs of distress.  

     These days the Republicans have had a revolution in their approach to the issue:  They have ceased asking if the stock market has shown any sign of distress.  You can still hear them ask "Are YOU hurting?" if you listen closely.

     My father just died, and the downturn has done some things to what he left my mother for her maintenance.  Am I hurting?  I guess that depends on how you'd define what a son should be doing for his mother.  If I were to say, that's between my dad and my mom and I have nothing at all to do with it, then I guess you have to say, "No, I'm not hurting at all."  

     On the other hand, if I do have some responsibility, well, I guess that would change the answer a bit now, wouldn't it?  I wish I could tell you where I think my responsibility ends.  I'd feel a lot better that way; but I don't have a good answer myself.  Sometimes I give money to folks on the street, sometimes I don't, and I don't really know why.

     But I do know the Stock Market is down. And yeah, I know that I'm hurting, too, one way or another.  I hesitate to call myself a bleeding heart Liberal.  I am, of course, a Liberal, but I'm not a Catholic by any stretch of the imagination, and near as I can tell you don't have to be a Liberal to have some concept of the fact that you're not the most important thing in the universe, and that doing stuff for those who need help shouldn't be reason to attract the scorn and distain of others.

Sincerely yours,  Bob Kaven

 
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