How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Sanctuary
 Family Dialogue
 The Ruthwell Cross - Dream of the Rood -   [ Page: 1  2  ]
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Elizabeth   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

The Ruthwell Cross - Dream of the Rood - Discussion

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
timothysangel1973
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Senior Member
since 12-03-2001
Posts 1749
Never close enough


0 posted 05-14-2005 10:52 PM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

As promised, LP and I are attempting to branch out here and start a Poetry Discussion Thread for others to join in on.  I was a little worried about what to start with, because obviously I wanted to start with something interesting enough to warrant a discussion - and secondly, I wanted something that wouldn't fizzle out too soon.

LP suggested The Ruthwell Cross and "The Dream of the Rood"

I have read the text and have to say that it is amazing, and there are so many things that can be taken from this peice of history.

So...

We will begin our Poetry Discussion thread with one of the oldest known poems, that is inscribed onto The Ruthwell Cross.  The Dream of the Rood has long been studied by poets, historians, archaeologists, tourists, and members of the church.  It's story is told on the cross in Old English, and in runes that are carved into the stone itself.  The story is a beautiful one, and is quite interesting.  

It is a long poem, one that you may have to read several times, however this was Local Parasites choice, and after reading it and some of the information that accompanies it, I found that it is more than just a peice of stone.  This is a peice of history, and as of this date no one knows who wrote the words that are on the stone.

Due to copyright, and rules within the PIP Community, I am not going to post the poem, or any other information here.  However, I will place links to both and after reading this, we can start a discussion.

"The Dream of the Rood is an Old English religious poem by an unknown author, which dates back to at least the tenth century. It is an interesting piece for a variety of reasons, one of which is its use of word imagery to convey its subject matter. Epitaphs and metaphors riddle the work in surprising frequency."


About the Dream of the Rood
http://www.flsouthern.edu/eng/abruce/rood/Poem.htm

The Modern English version of the text
http://www.flsouthern.edu/eng/abruce/rood/ROODTEXT/OE%7E1.HTM

Imagery
http://www.wsu.edu/~delahoyd/medieval/writing.sample3.html

Have Fun everyone....

As for me, well I am off to read it once again and gather my thoughts on the subject.

Thanks for the interest -

Tima


I may hate myself in the morning - but I'm gonna love you tonight
-Lee Ann Womack

timothysangel1973
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Senior Member
since 12-03-2001
Posts 1749
Never close enough


1 posted 05-15-2005 12:55 AM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

Still gathering.. among other things...

Tima

I may hate myself in the morning - but I'm gonna love you tonight
-Lee Ann Womack

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


2 posted 05-15-2005 11:01 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

What a wonderful choice, Tima.  
I read this poem before.  But am interested in looking at it more deeply with any that may like to join.  


By the way, in the Old English, cyst in the first line is somewhat like an equivelent to our modern english choicest.

Beheoldon r engel dryhtnes ealle,
fgere urh forgesceaft


"Many hosts of angels--fair by their pre-ordained condition--  gazed thereupon"

This translation may have some problem.

The word dryhtnes "lord's; of the lord" shows up, the genetive of dryhten "lord"  However the manner of the line looks plural so the translator seems to take it as if it is the word dryht "host, multitude"  

A more literal translation I think would be:

"There all beheld the angel of the lord
fair through foreordination"


Just thought I'd mention that for approaching this poem, as other translations you may read have  "the angel of the lord" rather than "many hosts" that corresponds with the word dryht "multitude, hot", instead of the word dryhten "lord"


I'll be back later.  
Thanks for posting this.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (05-16-2005 02:19 AM).]

Local Parasite
Deputy Moderator 10 Tours
Member Elite
since 11-05-2001
Posts 2929
Transylconia, Winnipeg


3 posted 05-15-2005 12:21 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

I love this poem.  In particular I love the irony of the Cross having to be obedient to God as an instrument of His death.  It's truly brilliant.

The essay you posted is interesting, but I take exception to this interpretation of the imagery of the cross as covered in jewels:
quote:
The next line follows up in its praise of the tree by lavishing it with gems, a symbol of royalty and richness. The Old English word "beacen" is applied to it, which could be translated "battle standard." In this way, the work begins its elaborate and subtle process of transcribing the gospel into an Anglo-Saxon archetype familiar and persuasive to its readers.
When reading the poem, I felt it was more of a connection to the New Jerusalem in the book of Revelation, in which things heavenly are discussed as being made of jewels.  This is not, of course, to say that luxury is divine, but that jewels that were thought to have immortal properties and be outside of the world of chaos, of generation and degeneration, or of mortality, are naturally divine.  So, Heaven is decked entirely in jewels, because it is given the status of eternity.  The Cross, likewise, is adorned with jewels because it has an exalted status in Heaven.

These lines have a similar substance to them:      
quote:
a us man fyllan ongan
ealle to eoran.  t ws egeslic wyrd!
Bedealf us man on deopan seae.  Hwre me r dryhtnes egnas,
freondas gefrunon,
ond gyredon me  golde ond seolfre.

(my clumsy translation) Then men began to topple us / all to the earth.  That was dreadful fate! / They buried us in a deep grave. / Yet lord's soldiers, friends learned [of me], and dressed me in gold and silver
Here, again, the Cross is contrasted with other crosses (those two on either side of it, notably) in its service of God, standing tall despite the earth's shaking (as the earth shook when Christ died) and holding up God Himself to die.  The Cross is given a heavenly status---we might even say a saintly status, because elsewhere in the poem it is described as having healing powers for anyone who prays to it:
quote:
Foran ic rymfst nu
hlifige under heofenum,  ond ic hlan mg
ghwylcne anra,  ara e him bi egesa to me.
(again, my translation) Therefore I gloriously now / tower under the heavens, and I may heal / anyone (any one), provided he be reverent of me.
The resolution of the poem, which comes when the dreamer resolves to pursue the Cross in his life, is especially interesting, as Christians are urged to "take up [their] crosses, and follow [Christ]" in the Bible.  On the day of judgment, everyone will be found to be unwilling to do so, according to the poem---but the dreamer knowingly pursues this end anyways, even though he knows nobody will be able to achieve it but Christ.

Making sacrifice into a journey for the follower of Christ, making the Cross into a saint, or even a shrine to be pursued on pilgrimage, and making the Cross himself a retainer who does the Lord's work by serving as an instrument in his death, is what makes this poem so wonderful as an interpretation of scriptural tradition, and an early manifestation of the English poetic imagination.


"God becomes as we are that we may be as he is."  ~William Blake
timothysangel1973
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Senior Member
since 12-03-2001
Posts 1749
Never close enough


4 posted 05-15-2005 05:31 PM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

I was introduced to this poem by Local Parasite and have to say that I have been consumed with my analysis and contribution to this thread.  First of all, unless you have read this before and are very familiar with this type of work, or even the era in which it was written, then reading it once won't be enough.  I have read it several times over the period of two days and each time that I read it, I have walked away with something new and interesting.

I beleive that my main focus, and best discussion will center around the symbolism of not only the cross, but also the focus on the Cross, the Cruxifiction, and Jesus as portrayed not only as the one that suffered for our sins, but also how he was viewed as "mankinds brave king" and a "courageous warrior".

I will be quoting from the translated version because I am not educated or well versed in Old English, and using that as my basis for discussion will only further confuse myself, and possibly those that read my interpretations.  For emphasis sake I have made the words that I want to focus on in BOLD so that the reader can easily reference what I am speaking of.

quote:
"That was years gone by--I still remember--
      that I was hewn down at the forest's edge,
30  cut out of my tree trunk.  Strong foes took me there,
      shaped me there for themselves in the form of a spectacle, commanded me to raise their criminals.
      Warriors carried me there on shoulders, until that they set me on a hill;
      many foes fastened me there.  I then saw mankind's Lord
      hasten with great zeal; he wished to climb on me.



In scripture, and even in study we learn that Jesus was made to carry his own cross, except for when the soldiers asked Simon from Cyrene to carry it.  However, in the last few verses of the excerpt above we see that the writer made the cross appear to have already been in the ground when Christ approached.

For me, this symbolizes how great, and strong was the cross as it waited for mankind's Lord to be placed upon it.


quote:
Strong foes took me there,
      shaped me there for themselves in the form of a spectacle, commanded me to raise their criminals.


Once again, differing in the appraoch by scripture, yet mirroring that the Cross was indeed a form of spectacle for all the world to see as Jesus hung to die, and as he was viewed as a criminal along with two others that each were nailed to a cross.
quote:
40  strong and unflinching; he stepped up on the high cross,
      brave in the sight of many, where he wished to redeem mankind.

      I trembled when the Warrior embraced me; nor did I dare, however, to bow down to the earth,
      to fall to the surfaces of the earth.  But I had to stand firm.
      As a rood I was erected; I raised the powerful King,
45  the Lord of heavens; I dared not bow myself down.

      They drove through me with iron-colored and sinister nails: on me the wounds are visible,
      the open malicious wounds; neither dared I to injure any of them.
      They mocked us two both together.  I was completely stained with blood,
      covered from the man's side after he had released his spirit.

50  I had endured on that hill
      much of cruel fates.


This entire verse has spoken various things from the point of view of the cross, as well as the character of Jesus.

Jesus here is represented as a brave warrior that gladly stepped upon the cross only to save mankind.  And because he was so brave, the cross stood brave along side him, even taking in the same nail peircings as did Jesus.  The cross had a job to do, which was to hold the brave king, and NOT to bow down.  The cross could have easily fallen, or broke and caused injury to those that drove the nails through the hand of Jesus and then deep into the wood of the cross, however it did not.  The cross speaks of being mocked, and therefore we can see the lifelike characteristics that the writer gave to the cross.  


[Quote] "Now you may hear, my beloved hero,
      that I have experienced the work of evil-doers,
80  the work of painful sorrow.  The time is now come
      that men over earth and all this glorious creation
      far and wide honor me

      [and] pray themselves to this sign.  On me God's son
      suffered a time; therefore I now victory-fast
85  tower under the heavens, and I may heal
      each one of those who themselves hold me in awe.



Above only reassures us that all was not in vain, as the cross will now stand as a great symbol for men to cling to and have promise that there sins have been forgiven, and they can be healed through power and beleif in the cross.


I beleive the writer wanted us not only to understand the cruxifiction through the suffering of Jesus, but also the "what it was like" to have held such a brave warrior that done what had to be done in order to save mankind.  In this era, being a brave soldier meant being stronger than your enemies in the end.  Giving your life willfully was in part braver than waiting for the enemy to do it themselves.  That is why Jesus was not killed prior to being hung on the cross.  His bravery was felt and witnessed by those that watched him suffer and die.  The cross was there all along, and knew the power and the glory in being a warrior that did not give up just because suffering was among him.


  I feel as though the writer done a wonderful job at portraying what the cross stands for.  It isn't just a peice of wood that held Jesus, however it is something to behold BECAUSE it held a suffering man that died for the sake of others.  It took the strongest peice of wood in the forest, one that was thick enough to carry the weight of a man, and stand firm atop a hill.

We know that Jesus did suffer on the cross, because the writer tells us so, and we know that being the cross itself was to suffer under the weight and scrutiny of all whom looked on.  It proves to us that the cross was not "just another tree from the forest."

The cross is still a great reminder of the sacrifice that Jesus made in order to save others from their sins.  The cross is an outward symbol that we hold onto as part of our beleifs and focus on our chosen religion.

I may hate myself in the morning - but I'm gonna love you tonight
-Lee Ann Womack


[This message has been edited by timothysangel1973 (05-15-2005 07:14 PM).]

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


5 posted 05-15-2005 09:24 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Hwt!      


"Here, again, the Cross is contrasted with other crosses (those two on either side of it, notably) in its service of God, standing tall despite the earth's shaking (as the earth shook when Christ died) and holding up God Himself to die.  The Cross is given a heavenly status---we might even say a saintly status, because elsewhere in the poem it is described as having healing powers for anyone who prays to it"


Indeed the cross is contrasted to the other crosses.  

But it seems like the cross is much more strongly contrasted to its own self as well.

Its ugly past is contrasted with a glorified present.   The dreamer sees earmra rgewin "Wretched ones' strife of old" as the cross's right side starts to bleed.

And then the dreamer says:

Geseah ic t fuse beacen  
wendan wdum ond bleom;  hwilum hit ws mid wtan bestemed,
beswyled mid swates gange,  hwilum mid since gegyrwed.


"I saw that ready beacon turn covers and colours.  Sometimes it was covered with wetness, swilled with blood's going, sometimes with riches bedecked."

This is one of the most outstanding images in the poem.  It is one cross, with two sides: a suffering and horror underneath all the glory, that lasted for a time, but an heroic and lifesaving acheivement lasts for an eternity.
Just like the cross overcomes his history, and wins salvation and divinity, so will the christian that stands under his Hlend with such strength and perseverence.  While the wicked men, go to the same fate as those other crosses that don't stand for Christ.


And the Rood reflects on the difference as well:

Iu ic ws geworden  wita heardost,
leodum laost,  ran ic him lifes weg
rihtne gerymde,  reordberendum.


"Of old I was become the heardest of punishments
Loathest to people  before I for them life's way
right opened, for speechbearers."


The cross is "converted" to Christianity.  
And thro steadfastness earns eternity, despite its history.

A good stir and promise for men that came from such a strong heathen past, that they stand uprightly for Christ as Christians, just as the cross did, and win an eternal victory with him.


[This message has been edited by Essorant (05-15-2005 11:49 PM).]

Local Parasite
Deputy Moderator 10 Tours
Member Elite
since 11-05-2001
Posts 2929
Transylconia, Winnipeg


6 posted 05-16-2005 03:48 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

Essorant,

I love your take on the "conversion" of the Cross, who is at first only a simple cross like the others but is transformed by good works.  

I was hoping someone would bring up the topic of the introduction.  The more common translation of these lines is something I find hard to swallow:
quote:
"I saw that ready beacon turn covers and colours.  Sometimes it was covered with wetness, swilled with blood's going, sometimes with riches bedecked."
The repeated word "hwilum" (literally "for a while") seems to me more an indication of a single moment of transformation rather than a back-and-forth movement, or a "sometimes."  I believe the dreamer saw the rood, for a while covered in blood, and then for another while dressed in jewels---a gradual transformation from one of these states to the other.

What do you think of that interpretation?

"God becomes as we are that we may be as he is."  ~William Blake

timothysangel1973
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Senior Member
since 12-03-2001
Posts 1749
Never close enough


7 posted 05-17-2005 09:20 AM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

I have gone back and re-read the poem again, looking for anything that I may have missed.  I did find one part in particular that caught my interest.  In the Bible we know that they placed Jesus in a tomb, however there is no mention of them singing over his body.  In the poem however in this verse below:


quote:
They took there the almighty God,
      raised him from the heavy torture.  The warriors left me
      to stand covered over by moisture; I was all with punctures wounded.
      They lay the limb-weary one there; they themselves stood at his body's head;
      they gazed there at the heaven's Lord, and he himself there a time rested,
65  weary after that great battle.  They, the warriors, themselves began to form
      an earth-urn in the sight of the rood; they carved that out of bright stone;
      they placed therein the Lord of victory.  They themselves then began to sing a dirge,



We see, that the warriors began to sing a dirge.  Now, not sure what a dirge was I looked it up in the dictionary:

quote:
Etymology: Middle English dirige, the Office of the Dead, from the first word of a Late Latin antiphon, from Latin, imperative of dirigere to direct -- more at DRESS
1 : a song or hymn of grief or lamentation; especially : one intended to accompany funeral or memorial rites
2 : a slow, solemn, and mournful piece of music
3 : something (as a poem) that has the qualities of a dirge


I just found that very interesting.  They were in mourning, however they mourned by way of singing a song over Christ after his death.



I may hate myself in the morning - but I'm gonna love you tonight
-Lee Ann Womack
littlewing
Member Rara Avis
since 03-02-2003
Posts 9998
New York


8 posted 05-18-2005 03:46 AM       View Profile for littlewing   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for littlewing

I just finished reading and am in awe.  I have not read any replies because I want this to be fresh in memory.

It read to me first from the mouth of Jesus, moreso someone feeling what Jesus felt (Judas?) and seeing both Jesus and the tree, switching to the tree and back to quite possibly, one of us, a follower, the first storyteller.

I have to read it again and again - I will feel differently each time.

I adore how the storyteller mimics the tree, the tree speaking in the write.  In reality, it is one voice throughout but the writer makes you think it is three . . . kind of like the Trinity, you know?

Father, Son, Holy Ghost.

I am not sure yet if I am deciding that the jewels signify Jesus' afterlife, as in his passing being glorious after so much pain or rather in a kingly manner.

I also get the feel that Mary Magdelene could be speaking the first part and last parts.

In the first half, I see the storyteller showing both sides of humanity:  the jewels, shining (good)  and the blood stained moisture (evil).  

I also like the trees empathy for the warriors, the soldiers.

Are the warriors the Romans or the followers?  Hmmm . . . could be both.

I think followers. The tree depicts man as seperate and evil.  Something to fear.  

Jesus speaks last.  Speaking to you and me, as if we are heroes . . . and as if he is just . . . human.

and again, back to the first teller . . . speaking of Jesus' and God's plans.  

The beginning of the last, almost seems as if it is the tree/God speaking.

Ending in perfect harmonic nature.
Three voices entwined,
three spirits joined,
feeling the same pain all on different levels.

The Trinity, the Circle of Life . . .

birth, life, death, resurrection.

I am blown away.

Now I will go read the replies.

Nice choice, Bri.
Awesome idea, Tima.



Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


9 posted 05-18-2005 12:09 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Brian,

The only problem with that interpretation is that it doesn't chime with the inflection -um.
-um on nouns always indicates the dative plural in Old English.  Therefore grammatically hwilum must be "(for) whiles"  The dative singular "for a while" is hwile

hwilum...hwilum shows up in other places as well in Old English.  It's a unique idiomatic expression.  Somewhat like the now...now expression used in earlier modern poetry, as from Scott's Marmion:

The Scottish host drawn out appears,
For, flashing on the hedge of spears
The eastern sunbeam shines.
Their front now deepening, now extending;
Their flank inclining, wheeling, bending,
Now drawing back, and now descending,
The skilful Marmion well could know,
They watch'd the motions of some foe,
Who traversed on the plain below.




Local Parasite
Deputy Moderator 10 Tours
Member Elite
since 11-05-2001
Posts 2929
Transylconia, Winnipeg


10 posted 05-18-2005 12:28 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

Ess,

Even so, no account is made of the order in which these "whiles" occur.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


11 posted 05-18-2005 01:09 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Brian,


That's true.

But other examples of hwilum...hwilum support the translation "sometimes"


Here is a wonderful example from Aelfric's Colloquy:


Teacher:

Hwt sgst u, fugelere? Hu beswicst u fugelas?

"What sayest thou, fowler?  How catchest thou fowls?"


Student:

On feala wisan ic beswice fugelas: hwilum mid netum, hwilum mid grinum, hwilum mid lime, hwilum mid hwistlunge, hwilum mid hafoce, hwilum mid treppum.


"In many ways I catch fowls: sometimes with nets, sometimes with snares, sometimes with lime, sometimes with whistling, sometimes with a hawk, sometimes with traps."


timothysangel1973
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Senior Member
since 12-03-2001
Posts 1749
Never close enough


12 posted 05-18-2005 01:15 PM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

You guys are awesome with this Old English stuff... I sooo want to learn it, but I figure that I should perfect Modern English first.

You guys are really moving this conversation by bringing out the true essence of it, since it was originally written in Old English.  I do wish that I could join you there, but I must admit I am totally lost from that angle, and so it creates a language barrier between myself and the original poem.

Keep up the great work, even though I can't join in on that certain topic (the translation) I can enjoy the conversation that the two of you are having !!

Tima
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


13 posted 05-19-2005 10:36 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Tima
It's not necessary at all to have perfect Modern English to learn Old english.  In truth, without any learning in Old English and the roots of the language, one is probably more likely to have more uncertainties and difficulties about the language as a whole, and therefore struggle more.  Learning Old English may inevitablly help learning modern English too, just like standing stronger on her roots, doesn't just help the tree stand stronger, but helps her hold up her branches stronger too    
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


14 posted 05-19-2005 11:32 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Look at all the words below that come from Old English!


You guys are awesome with this Old English stuff... I sooo want to learn it, but I figure that I should perfect Modern English first.

You guys are really moving this conversation by bringing out the true essence of it, since it was originally written in Old English.  I do wish that I could join you there, but I must admit I am totally lost from that angle, and so it creates a language barrier between myself and the original poem.

Keep up the great work, even though I can't join in on that certain topic (the translation) I can enjoy the conversation that the two of you are having !!


So in a sense, you are already using Old English very strongly, just in an evolved shape.      
timothysangel1973
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Senior Member
since 12-03-2001
Posts 1749
Never close enough


15 posted 05-21-2005 02:07 AM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

Okie Dokie... where is everyone ?

Have we ran out of things to discuss on this one... though I do beleive that if I went back and re-read it, I could find something else to talk about...


Is it time for a new poem?

You all let me know... I have quite a few sitting here waiting for their chance to be discussed?

I may hate myself in the morning - but I'm gonna love you tonight
-Lee Ann Womack

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


16 posted 05-21-2005 10:34 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Good day,


Tima
It may be because those links above are not currently working for some reason.  

Here is another on-line translation.  I think this reads a bit more accuratly than the other one.  


Dream of the Rood

Modern English:
http://faculty.uca.edu/~jona/texts/rood.htm

Old English:
http://www.georgetown.edu/labyrinth/library/oe/texts/a2.5.html
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


17 posted 05-21-2005 02:58 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I like how the author refers to humans as reordberend [speech-bearing ones/speech-bearers].  But I wonder what for sure s/he was trying to express by using that term.  

We find it in line 4:

syan reordberend  reste wunedon

"since speech-bearing ones in rest remained"


And in line 89:

             ... ic him lifes weg
rihtne gerymde,  reordberendum.


"...I for them life's way
right opened, for speechbearing ones"


Why did the author refer to men as reordberend, instead of just men?  He or she might use the Old English kenning sawolberend "soulbearing one" as well.  The aspect of having/bearing reord "speech/language/voice" must be a special distinction in the Dream of the Rood.

Any thoughts?

Here is a note about those interesting nouns that end with -end in OE: Post #34

[This message has been edited by Essorant (05-22-2005 02:07 AM).]

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


18 posted 05-22-2005 06:05 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Here are some recordings of Dream of the Rood read aloud.  

From:The Norton Anthology of English Literature
        
Dream of the Rood


From: Readings in Early English:

From Dream of the Rood: Lines 1-12; and 29-50.
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


19 posted 05-22-2005 10:39 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

interesting...

and smiling at the choice.

I'll bookmark this and hopefully be back.

LP? You're very astute, but damn the fog of my mind, the jewels of the cross...there is a scriptural reference to a breastplate worn by the priests of the temple. (I don't have a chapter and verse but it may come to me later) I do believe they not only correspond, but have significant similarities to Eastern belief of the Chakra system and the revelations of the structure of an etheric body, metaphorically a temple, perhaps?

sigh...

I'll be reading when I can.

I miss this stuff.

timothysangel1973
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Senior Member
since 12-03-2001
Posts 1749
Never close enough


20 posted 05-25-2005 12:59 AM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973


Essorant - I wonder too about the "speech-bearing ones" that is mentioned in the poem.  Maybe that is just a special description that the writer used instead of simply referring to them as "men", however, now one must wonder... maybe he didn't say men because he was talking of ALL mankind, which is MAN and WOMAN eh?

And Karen, there is most certainly a scripture in the Bible about the breastplates that were worn, and I have been looking for the exact phrase but have NOT come up with it yet.  Will keep looking tho and come on back and jump in.

Tima

I may hate myself in the morning - but I'm gonna love you tonight
-Lee Ann Womack

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


21 posted 05-26-2005 08:43 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Tima


"maybe he didn't say men because he was talking of ALL mankind, which is MAN and WOMAN eh?"


But it wouldn't make a difference in Old English. As mann/man (or monn/mon) didn't just mean "male" but meant "person, human" and was also used as we use the word one to refer to any person.   The chief words for female/woman and male/man were wif and wer.  Wif became our modern wife.  Wifmann became our modern woman.  Wer mostly disappeared, but shows up in the words werewolf (from werwulf: wer "man" + wulf "wolf")  and world (from woruld: wer "man" + ieldu "age") The vir in virtue and virility is also from that same word in its Latin shape vir "man".  (much closer than it looks as v in latin was pronounced "w" )


It may be reordberend is just a unique expression for poeticness; but it also may have much deeper context in the poem.   As the the cross doesn't just suggest a cross with a voice, but seems to suggest a reordberend/human itself, as well.


[This message has been edited by Essorant (05-28-2005 09:45 AM).]

vlraynes
Member Rara Avis
since 07-25-2000
Posts 9136
Somewhere... out there...


22 posted 05-27-2005 12:36 AM       View Profile for vlraynes   Email vlraynes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit vlraynes's Home Page   View IP for vlraynes

Karen and Tima?...

Not sure if this is the scripture you're referring to...
but it seems to me that it might be...
and if it isn't?... sorry 'bout that...




Exodus chapter 28
King James Version

1 And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office, even Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's sons.
2 And thou shalt make holy garments for Aaron thy brother for glory and for beauty.
3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
4 And these are the garments which they shall make: a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
5 And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen.
6 And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work.
7 It shall have the two shoulderpieces thereof joined at the two edges thereof, and so it shall be joined together.
8 And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof, even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.
9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:
10 Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth.
11 With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in ouches of gold.
12 And thou shalt put the two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod for stones of memorial unto the children of Israel: and Aaron shall bear their names before the LORD upon his two shoulders for a memorial.
13 And thou shalt make ouches of gold;
14 And two chains of pure gold at the ends; of wreathen work shalt thou make them, and fasten the wreathen chains to the ouches.
15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
16 Foursquare it shall be being doubled; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.
17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.
18 And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
19 And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
20 And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.
21 And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet, every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes.
22 And thou shalt make upon the breastplate chains at the ends of wreathen work of pure gold.
23 And thou shalt make upon the breastplate two rings of gold, and shalt put the two rings on the two ends of the breastplate.
24 And thou shalt put the two wreathen chains of gold in the two rings which are on the ends of the breastplate.
25 And the other two ends of the two wreathen chains thou shalt fasten in the two ouches, and put them on the shoulderpieces of the ephod before it.
26 And thou shalt make two rings of gold, and thou shalt put them upon the two ends of the breastplate in the border thereof, which is in the side of the ephod inward.
27 And two other rings of gold thou shalt make, and shalt put them on the two sides of the ephod underneath, toward the forepart thereof, over against the other coupling thereof, above the curious girdle of the ephod.
28 And they shall bind the breastplate by the rings thereof unto the rings of the ephod with a lace of blue, that it may be above the curious girdle of the ephod, and that the breastplate be not loosed from the ephod.
29 And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before the LORD continually.
30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually.
31 And thou shalt make the robe of the ephod all of blue.
32 And there shall be an hole in the top of it, in the midst thereof: it shall have a binding of woven work round about the hole of it, as it were the hole of an habergeon, that it be not rent.
33 And beneath upon the hem of it thou shalt make pomegranates of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, round about the hem thereof; and bells of gold between them round about:
34 A golden bell and a pomegranate, a golden bell and a pomegranate, upon the hem of the robe round about.
35 And it shall be upon Aaron to minister: and his sound shall be heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the LORD, and when he cometh out, that he die not.
36 And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS TO THE LORD.
37 And thou shalt put it on a blue lace, that it may be upon the mitre, upon the forefront of the mitre it shall be.
38 And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts, and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the LORD.
39 And thou shalt embroider the coat of fine linen, and thou shalt make the mitre of fine linen, and thou shalt make the girdle of needlework.
40 And for Aaron's sons thou shalt make coats, and thou shalt make for them girdles, and bonnets shalt thou make for them, for glory and for beauty.
41 And thou shalt put them upon Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him; and shalt anoint them, and consecrate them, and sanctify them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office.
42 And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach:
43 And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they bear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him.



And if it IS the scripture you were looking for?...
then I thought this might interest you as well...
Matthew Henry's Commentary (Exodus Chapter 28)
timothysangel1973
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Senior Member
since 12-03-2001
Posts 1749
Never close enough


23 posted 05-27-2005 01:29 AM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

Thank you Vicky, and I'm not sure exactly which verse that Karen was looking for, myself, well I just knew that somewhere it mentioned it.  I think that there are alot of hidden messages and references to the Bible in this poem.  And, if we were to really dive into it, I bet we could find so many wonderful things within the text.  This is a brilliant and beautiful message, one that everyone needs to read atleast once.  

Thank you for taking the time to find this info Vicky, and hopefully Karen will be around soon to read this and give us her input.

Tima
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


24 posted 05-27-2005 11:38 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Thanks Vicky.  
Interesting things to wonder about.
timothysangel1973 will be notified of replies
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Sanctuary >> Family Dialogue >> The Ruthwell Cross - Dream of the Rood -   [ Page: 1  2  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors