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Passions in Poetry

Duet Club Question -- Let's Talk

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Ratleader
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Member Rara Avis
since 01-23-2003
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0 posted 05-16-2003 12:51 PM       View Profile for Ratleader   Email Ratleader   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ratleader's Home Page   View IP for Ratleader


A serious question....

If the Duet Club is organized here in the Sanctuary and the poems are posted here as well, we're limiting particpation to Senior Members. It's also likely that we're limiting the readership to ourselves alone, since it's doubtful that many new folks come in here to read.

Is that ok with everybody?
Midnitesun
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Gaia


1 posted 05-16-2003 01:07 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

NO!  ???
I don't think we will be banned from re-posting a 'final' version' in the main forums.
But of course, I'm not the rule maker.
Actually, I've never even done a duet.
Local Parasite
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since 11-05-2001
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Transylconia, Winnipeg


2 posted 05-16-2003 01:21 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

This is a Sanctuary-based activity.  Part of the reason it's done in Sanctuary is to draw a bit more attention to the forum.  PdV has made various attempts in the past to get this forum more active, with challenges and such, and this was originally one of them...

Besides, if we post it in Open then we're kind of flaunting a senior-members-only activity to those that can't participate, aren't we?

You're right that not a lot of people read in Sanctuary, Ratleader.  That's not a reason to post our duets elsewhere... it's a reason to post them in there to begin with.  Bring some attention to a forum that could use a little more traffic.

I also want to add the idea of restricting club "membership" to senior members alone, and why that's necessary... by doing this, we're allowing ourselves some level of certainty that the people who sign up for the Duet Club will follow through to the end... those people who are senior members, and what's more, those that happen to find Sanctuary, are probably members who we can count on being around for a while, and members who've established themselves enough to make the duet club interesting... personally, what I like about the duet club IS the idea that I can see names that I recognize, poets whose styles are distinct and well-known, and watch how an interesting pairing-up between people I wouldn't have expected to work together would turn out.

I don't want this activity to go anywhere out of Sanctuary.  This is a Sanctuary-based activity and there's good reason for it to be somewhat "exclusive."


Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world.
~Percy Bysshe Shelley

[This message has been edited by Local Parasite (05-16-2003 01:26 PM).]

Toad
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since 06-16-2002
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3 posted 05-16-2003 01:47 PM       View Profile for Toad   Email Toad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toad


quote:
This is a Sanctuary-based activity and there's good reason for it to be somewhat "exclusive."


I agree, otherwise you’d have people like me joining and lowering the tone.
Marilyn
Member Elite
since 09-26-1999
Posts 2646
Ontario, Canada


4 posted 05-16-2003 02:45 PM       View Profile for Marilyn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Marilyn

I have been away for so long it is hard to get to know people, since PIP has grown so. Having participation limited would help me to reaquaint myself with the poets who might remember me...lol. Or are Elite members not allowed to participate either?

Marilyn.


[This message has been edited by Marilyn (05-16-2003 02:46 PM).]

Local Parasite
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since 11-05-2001
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Transylconia, Winnipeg


5 posted 05-16-2003 02:56 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

Hah... no, it's at least senior member.  Once you have 500 posts you're welcome in Sanctuary.
Toad
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since 06-16-2002
Posts 247


6 posted 05-16-2003 03:39 PM       View Profile for Toad   Email Toad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toad

Do you mean I’m not welcome?

[This message has been edited by Toad (05-16-2003 03:40 PM).]

Janet Marie
Member Laureate
since 01-22-2000
Posts 18986


7 posted 05-16-2003 03:43 PM       View Profile for Janet Marie   Email Janet Marie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Janet Marie

Toad...use one of your senior member names and COME PLAY... you KNOW youre welcome.
Phaedrus
Member
since 01-26-2002
Posts 280


8 posted 05-16-2003 03:54 PM       View Profile for Phaedrus   Email Phaedrus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Phaedrus


No can do Janet – none of me have enough posts.

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


9 posted 05-16-2003 04:00 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Perhaps we could make an exception based on the accumulative posts initiating from your IP?

There are many reasons for the alias assuming an alias--in fact, I am pondering the benefits of that myselves...
Janet Marie
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since 01-22-2000
Posts 18986


10 posted 05-16-2003 04:14 PM       View Profile for Janet Marie   Email Janet Marie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Janet Marie

Hmmmmm ....OK...well...then how bout this Phae ...I'll do a duet with ya and post it in open or where ever you like...
the moth would do anything to get to read a poem by you more than once in a blue moon!!
Local Parasite
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since 11-05-2001
Posts 2929
Transylconia, Winnipeg


11 posted 05-16-2003 04:21 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

We made an exception last time with Masked Intruder.  "Senior Members Only" just means people who you can count on being around, and members who've established themselves to about 500 posts or so...

Sure, if you can be counted on to actually stick around for the duration of this project, I see no reason why you can't participate... there are clearly exceptions that can be made...

As for aliases?  Hmm nope, can't say I've ever done that myself...  


Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world.
~Percy Bysshe Shelley

[This message has been edited by Local Parasite (05-16-2003 04:22 PM).]

littlewing
Member Rara Avis
since 03-02-2003
Posts 9998
New York


12 posted 05-16-2003 06:10 PM       View Profile for littlewing   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for littlewing

If we are trying to get this forum up and running and it is open to senior members only - then I think it should be left at that - open is for everyone and I am the last to exclude anyone from anything but as soon as they get their posting up - then they have the right to join in too - Lord knows I have posted my tootsies off . . .

I also think whoever does the duet should have the choice of posting it in Open if they choose to then

But as for the alias' hmmmm - you guys can figure that one out . . .

I will be happy to participate - just email me - would be interesting to try and write with someone I dont know very well - I have done many duets but with people I know closely . . . what a strange poem that would turn out to be . . .
xxoo

[This message has been edited by littlewing (05-16-2003 06:12 PM).]

Poet deVine
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since 05-26-99
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Hurricane Alley


13 posted 05-16-2003 07:26 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

I would like to think that doing duets with someone picked randomly will help us grow as writers. And get to know someone you may not have had contact with before.

I don't like the 'exclusive' tag but Sanctuary was designed as a 'getaway' for those who acheive Senior Member status (look how easy THAT is to do now!). A forum that won't turn over 12 pages in one day..
Ringo
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since 02-20-2003
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Saluting with misty eyes


14 posted 05-16-2003 08:32 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

In My Not-so-humble opinion, I would happen to agree with the "Senior Only" tag on the duets. When I first started on here, All I wanted was to become a Non-Junior member. I knew there was now way I would ever become a Senior Member. Once I became a Member, I kept writing and writing and writing to get my title to Senior Member ( of course, I got to 400 posts before I realized that replying worked  lol). As a result, although I wouldn't include myself along the names of Misletoe Angel or serenity blaze, or Balladeer, or littlewing, or any of the others who are severely talented, I still think there should be benefits available to the Senior Members and above that the others don't have... otherwise, why would anyone work to become a Senior Member.
Just my thoughts

Day after day I'm more confused,
So I look for the light through the pouring rain...

Crazy Eddie
Member
since 09-14-2002
Posts 221


15 posted 05-16-2003 09:02 PM       View Profile for Crazy Eddie   Email Crazy Eddie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Crazy Eddie

Ringo,

Are you saying that you’d rather write a duet with someone who’s posted 500 replies than someone who’s written and posted 2 outstanding poems?

Suppose Misletoe Angel, Serenity, Balladeer and littlewing had only joined yesterday, or the next Robert Frost, Shakespeare, Shamus Heaney or Dylan Thomas joined tomorrow. Would you seriously turn down a chance to write with them in favour of John Doe who’s been here since the day dot and happens to have hit the reply button 250,000 times?

I know which I’d choose.

Janet,

I’d be honoured to write a duet with you regardless where, or even if, it gets posted.
Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 05-20-99
Posts 24426
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


16 posted 05-16-2003 09:33 PM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

Eddie - You KNOW I'll write one with ya... But you have to agree to like what you write... I knew a "loon" once who got published...
Local Parasite
Deputy Moderator 10 Tours
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since 11-05-2001
Posts 2929
Transylconia, Winnipeg


17 posted 05-16-2003 09:54 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

well Crazy Eddie, if Robert Frost had just joined yesterday, he'd sure have something to look forward to, wouldn't he?  Soon as he had 500 posts, he could join the Duet Club.

Listen, this isn't quality control.  It's just a way to make sure that the people participating are established family members.  I know there are newbies whose talents outshine us (obviously, considering we were all newbies at some time).  

The reason Sanctuary is exclusive is so that the people who have contributed a sufficient amount to the forum are given some kind of reward... a "sanctuary" that's just for people who have been here, and been active, for quite a while.

Unfortunately there will always be exceptions.  But that doesn't mean we have to ditch the whole policy.  If you don't like it, go post 300 replies.

Then, you'll be more than welcome, right?

Parasite

Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world.
~Percy Bysshe Shelley

Ringo
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since 02-20-2003
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Saluting with misty eyes


18 posted 05-16-2003 11:53 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Actually Eddie, I have never co-written a poem before, and am looking on this as a new challenge. And to that end, I would rather write with someone known (at least slightly) to me than someone I don't know. You also, in my opinion, asked a nonsense question, and one that really does not address the statement I made. I do not say that as an insult, and I apologize if you see it as such, but that is the way I see it. If ANYONE (even you... regardless of our past disagreements or lack of Senior Member status) wanted to do a duet with me, I would be completely honored that they felt me worthy of the attempt. The idea of the Duet Club, though, should not, in my opinion, be open to the general public. Senior Members, as a rule, have been on the site for more than a few weeks, and are taking this seriously, instead of just another site that they hit a few times and wander off. We have all seen them too many times. Also, the Senior Members on here (most of them) have posted a great number of initial posts and haven't just "hit the reply button 2500,000 times". even littlewing-who  has replied to almost every posting on here- has made a great number of original posts and deserves to be here...I myself have done around 50 (I think) and am one of the slow posters.
I also happened to have noticed a couple of other things: You have been a member since 2002, and have had very few original posts on your way to not being a Senior Member. Also, you have never replied to any of my original posts, and have only slammed any of the replies that I have made to a discussion without regards to what it is I have said. I would respectfully ask that if you are not going to treat me with the respect that I have always attempted to give everyone on this site, even those with whom I disagree (except for one extreme exception a while ago) then you should not reply to anything I post on here.
So, I stand by my original statement that it should be left for Senior Members.

Day after day I'm more confused,
So I look for the light through the pouring rain...

JP
Senior Member
since 05-25-99
Posts 1391
Loomis, CA


19 posted 05-17-2003 12:22 AM       View Profile for JP   Email JP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit JP's Home Page   View IP for JP

I'm just amazed at how much discussion seems to generate from something... anything really.

I say we get to writing and leave the idea as is.  The idea is to stretch ourselves and write, isn't it?

Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn.
Nil Desperandum, Fata viem invenient

Crazy Eddie
Member
since 09-14-2002
Posts 221


20 posted 05-17-2003 08:05 AM       View Profile for Crazy Eddie   Email Crazy Eddie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Crazy Eddie


Ringo,

Is it a nonsense question?

Maybe, I guess it depends on why you want to write a duet, if the reason was simply based upon wanting to write with talented poet then the question shows that the Senior Only rule is nonsense in that respect.

There are other reasons, as you and others have pointed out. Perhaps you want to write with someone you know, even slightly, does the Senior Member rule ensure this? Do you know, even slightly, all the senior members? If the answer is no then you have to admit that you could end up writing a duet with someone you don’t know, you could say – That might be true I don’t know them but they write good poetry – but that just brings you back to the question regarding talent and senior membership.

Another reason may be that Senior Membership can somehow guarantee that those who join in are going to stick around; that the number of posts is a reflection of how long a member has been a member. Unfortunately Senior Member status based on the number of posts is woefully ineffective in that regard. There are Senior Members who disappear at the drop of a hat for months on end and Members who’ve been here everyday for the last 12 months, there’s even the possibility, if your submit finger is particularly active, of racking up 500 posts in a matter of days. The title Senior Member isn’t a particularly good way of assessing membership longevity when looked at in that way, is it?

quote:
I also happened to have noticed a couple of other things: You have been a member since 2002, and have had very few original posts on your way to not being a Senior Member. Also, you have never replied to any of my original posts, and have only slammed any of the replies that I have made to a discussion without regards to what it is I have said. I would respectfully ask that if you are not going to treat me with the respect that I have always attempted to give everyone on this site, even those with whom I disagree (except for one extreme exception a while ago) then you should not reply to anything I post on here.


It would be nice if you could choose who replied to what you post here, nice but potential very monotonous and even perhaps slightly boring. People have an annoying habit of holding views that are contrary to my own and persist in posting them at every opportunity but I quite enjoy that. Ron, Brad, Stephanos, JP and a whole bunch of other people do it all the time, I don’t call it slamming I call it communicating, it may get tense but it’s always tempered with respect.

Your assertion that I’ve slammed you without regard to what you have said is wrong on two counts, I don’t slam I simply state my opinion, and I state my opinion based upon what you say not regardless of it. If you post things that I hold an opinion on then you have to accept that I may reply to them, the best I can do is suggest that if you don’t like my opinion ignore it or tell me why I’m wrong.

LP,

The fact that I could just go submit crazy and fulfil the selection criteria sort of underlines my point. You say you are rewarding people who have been here a long time but the 500 barrier patently doesn’t ensure that, in fact as I pointed out above you could just end up excluding the people you’re trying to reward.

Perhaps it’s participation you’re more interested but doesn’t that just exclude those that have less time or a different way of participating? Could you be excluding someone who has been here for years and reads but seldom replies in favour of someone who’s been here hours and doesn’t read a thing but replies to everything?

JP,

quote:
I'm just amazed at how much discussion seems to generate from something... anything really.


I agree, a great thinker once said something like “I consider a good discussion to be its own form of poetry”, I can’t for the life of me remember who it was but I definitely agree.
JP
Senior Member
since 05-25-99
Posts 1391
Loomis, CA


21 posted 05-17-2003 10:32 AM       View Profile for JP   Email JP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit JP's Home Page   View IP for JP

Yes, a great thinker he was, ah... er.. IS I mean!

I'm guess I'm just frustrated that something so simple and potentially so much fun has to be bandied about insecently.  I've always felt that if you don't like the rules of a game, choose a different game to play, and if you don't have anything nice to say, say it a pleasantly as possible...

...and before this becomes a chance for the congregation to pummel a rapidly decomposing horse... I am out of this particular thread...

Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn.
Nil Desperandum, Fata viem invenient

Local Parasite
Deputy Moderator 10 Tours
Member Elite
since 11-05-2001
Posts 2929
Transylconia, Winnipeg


22 posted 05-17-2003 10:55 AM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

As am I...

Crazy Eddie, it seems that you're really just struggling to prove your point instead of actually trying to see things any other way than you already do.  That shows me that you're not worth arguing with.

I'm out of this thread.

Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world.
~Percy Bysshe Shelley

Crazy Eddie
Member
since 09-14-2002
Posts 221


23 posted 05-17-2003 12:02 PM       View Profile for Crazy Eddie   Email Crazy Eddie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Crazy Eddie

quote:
I've always felt that if you don't like the rules of a game, choose a different game to play, and if you don't have anything nice to say, say it a pleasantly as possible...


JP,

I did choose a different game, I chose to voice my opinion in a thread that included in its title “Lets Talk” I believe I’ve done that calmly and rationally or as you described it –as pleasantly as possible.

LP,

I wasn’t trying to prove any point I was just voicing my opinion and I definitely wasn’t struggling. I’ve looked at this from all sides and can’t find any good reason why this duet idea has to be restricted to Senior Members only and several good reasons why it shouldn’t be.

I may well be “not worth arguing with” but if that’s the case why not blow a few holes in my arguments by giving me some valid reasons that make sense instead of a blank refusal to discuss it.

Being “not worth arguing with” has to be better than not being prepared to defend your argument.
Local Parasite
Deputy Moderator 10 Tours
Member Elite
since 11-05-2001
Posts 2929
Transylconia, Winnipeg


24 posted 05-17-2003 12:51 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

quote:
The fact that I could just go submit crazy and fulfil the selection criteria sort of underlines my point.

If it's so easy to do that, then GO DO IT.  No, I'm serious, go read 300 poems, offer 300 comments on them, and maybe you'll be able to appreciate the effort required to amass 500 posts total in piptalk.

The so-called "good reasons" are nothing but minor problems with the Senior Members Only policy.  What does Senior Members Only ensure?  It ensures that the people who post here will be people who have pressed the "submit" button at least 500 times.  If we were to go by joining date?  Well, we'd have no way to account for the level of activity of the people posting.  We might well have someone who joined last year and has only posted about 20 times, and thus, isn't exactly too reliable for participation in the Duet Club.

You're also discussing the "Senior Members Only" policy as though it's something directly characteristic of the Duet Club.  That's not the case.  It's a characteristic of Sanctuary.  The Sanctuary forum is exclusively reserved for people whose posting activity has been demonstrated by way of posting at least 500 replies or poems.

What Senior Member Status doesn't tell us is NOT the issue here, Eddie.  What it DOES tell us is that whoever has 500 posts MUST be a reasonably active member of piptalk, or at least, must have been sometime in the past.  It means that they've met some minimum requirement necessary to be allowed access to a forum set aside exclusively for people who have contributed that much.

The Duet Club is an activity for people in Sanctuary.  The Senior Members Only policy isn't something that was created for the duet club... it is simply the quality that makes Sanctuary distinct from any other place in piptalk.  Our duet club activity is something concieved by the people in Sanctuary.

Sanctuary isn't a large community, and that's why the Duet Club is something realistic for us to be able to concieve and manage.  If it were open to everyone, as it seems like you are suggesting, more problems would be created than solved.  Too many eager participants would be randomly paired off with people who sign up and don't stick around to complete.  We have no reason to try and take this anywhere other than where it is.

Your whole argument is based on refuting the idea of restricting the Duet Club to Senior Members only.  What you don't realize is that Senior Members Only is the policy of Sanctuary, and the Duet Club is something that exists within Sanctuary... it's not a rule we invented for the club.  And even if it were, I'd still see no problem with it... all that 500 minimum post requirement tells us is that people have contributed a reasonable amount.

You want me to listen to any more of your minor problems with our conception of the Duet Club as a Sanctuary activity, or the restriction of Sanctuary to Senior Members Only, then you'd better be willing to show me some kind of reasonable solution.  Otherwise you're just being a pest, and that's why, as I said before, you're not really worth arguing with.  I'd blow holes in your argument, if there was any reason to listen to your argument in the first place.  So, what's your brilliant alternative to Sanctuary's policy, Eddie?  Let's hear it.


Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world.
~Percy Bysshe Shelley


[This message has been edited by Local Parasite (05-17-2003 01:18 PM).]

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