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Passions in Poetry

Tolerance

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Cpat Hair
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0 posted 10-16-2002 02:29 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair


OK... so we all understand the need for tolerance in society and in our personal lives. Where do we draw the lines between tolerating and or enabling. Particularly in what can be seen as destructive behavior in those people around us?

May not be the place for this thread...but I stuck it here for a reason... if it is felt it needs to moved, just delete it as I really don't want it in any of the other forums.

bsquirrel
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1 posted 10-16-2002 02:38 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

I will tolerate this thread being here. Don't worry -- just marking my place so I'll remember to come back when I have free time and some thoughts. Wait for me.

Mikey
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2 posted 10-16-2002 02:41 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

What makes you think that tolerance leads to enabling?

If I tolerate someone's drug use long enough, am I eventually enabling them?
Cpat Hair
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3 posted 10-16-2002 02:44 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

Ms Devine... this is the question in essence I struggle with. If you tolerate are you enabling? Is tolerating an actual act of enabling by in some ways giving tacit approval by virtue of the fact you tolerate the behavior?

I, of course never know when to stop thinking about an answer or reply, so had to come back and ask you in turn..why would you think tolerating drug use let's say is not enabling?

[This message has been edited by Cpat Hair (10-16-2002 02:57 PM).]

Cpat Hair
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4 posted 10-16-2002 02:45 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

Mr Squirrel...
  Of course I'll wait for your insight.
Janet Marie
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5 posted 10-16-2002 04:49 PM       View Profile for Janet Marie   Email Janet Marie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Janet Marie

I had this friend...knew her from high school on...her husband was an Alcoholic...
he was constantly being fired from jobs, wrecked cars, hurt himself and others, stole money from the family. They were being sued for damages he did in a car accident, he had multiple DUI's. Several failed attempts of AA and other rehab..he never seemed to finish the programs...even when judge ordered..the system seemed to always fail.
They had 3 kids, one of which was autistic, they were deep in debt...lived in a house his mother owned and she felt like she was trapped with few options...so she "tolerated" or allowed his drinking and tried to carry on with life in between his drunken episodes...finally after years of this pattern she joined a group for spouses of Alcoholics..they taught her that she was a co-dependant..that she was enabling his drinking by allowing him to come back home, by cleaning up his messes and by trying to hold the family together in spite of him. They told her--anytime another's personal problems leave scars on us and in anyway disrupts our life with dysfunction, allowing it to go on makes us an enabler. That's what all the "programs" teach anyway.
As for my friend....she packed up the kids one day after he walked out of another rehab center. Last we heard he is still drinking...there is no happy ending here...all 3 of the kids have lasting emotional and mental scars from the years of growing up under this kind of influence...one of them is now also struggling with drinking.
The cycle continues...
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6 posted 10-16-2002 04:50 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

I think tolerance is for the person not the act.

For example: I tolerate drug users but not drug use. I make my views known and then shut up. Maybe tolerance is not the right word here - maybe it's acceptance. I accept the drug user (if I like them), tolerate them but make them aware that I don't accept or tolerate their habit.

Does that sound right? Sigh...I probably enable them too. Knowing me, I would hate to hurt someone's feelings.

Another example: I have tolerance for someone who murders - let's say it's my cousin. But though I tolerate him, I don't tolerate the act he committed. I separate the two.
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7 posted 10-16-2002 05:34 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

JM: Sad story but one I am familiar with and know the programs do indeed say you are enabling if you allow an abuser or addict however you want ot state it to continue to come home, etc. If we take the same principle and apply it not to the abuse of drugs or booze, but to self destructive psychological behavior do we then become enablers because we tolerate that behavior in others? If that's true, then who decides what is and is not self destructive behavior?


Ms Devine...
You truly do not have to worry about or try to please everyone. Certainly not me...although I do understand the ways that trying to do so becomes apart of our lives.

As to your explanantion of accepting or tolerating, I think I understand what you are saying but struggle a bit with the implications. If I tolerate someone who has murdered ( my cousin as you use for example) or accept them, and serate the act from the person, how do I then as a society pass judgement on them? How also would I condemn the act and not hold the person responsible for the act? I know you did not say you did not hold the person responsible, but if I accept or tolerate the person, hate the act, is not passing judgement or punishing the person an act of intolerance and a show of not accepting the person?

I know... I know.... I probably sound like I just want to debate or argue..and that isn't the case. I want to understand...and my mind is a terrible terrible thing when it comes to understanding. I have all these pathways that thoughts chase themselves through on the emotional side and them the darned rational side tries to apply logic to the whole and I end up with a conflicting understanding that suits neither side. Eventually...they start calling each other names, throwing stones at each other, and finally end up in a fist fight... whomever is the less bloody at the end of all this is the one that controls the understanding mechanism.... but the other...well he still tries to poke a stick in the wheels as they turn in hopes of pitching the other head over heals on the pavement and stealing the bike...

(now who is crazy?)


Janet Marie
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8 posted 10-16-2002 05:49 PM       View Profile for Janet Marie   Email Janet Marie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Janet Marie

If I understand your question..then I think the same answer will still apply....

anytime another's behavior, choices, life style, or habits effect ours in a negative way in that it impedes our abilty to function, or that it takes an emotional, mental or physical toll on us...then there is a problem. We can choose to let it go on...get them help...or get ourselves out of the situation. It's often a fine line...sometimes we sacrifice ourselves in the name of "uncondtional love" but at some point..there must be a balance.

and yeah....i hear myself...and love the moth irony...if only it was as easy to live out the advice as it is to type it......

"whose crazy" you ask?
we all are baby...crazy from the heat

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9 posted 10-16-2002 06:11 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

Here are some definitions:

1 : capacity to endure pain or hardship : ENDURANCE, FORTITUDE, STAMINA

2 a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something : TOLERATION

3 : the allowable deviation from a standard; especially : the range of variation permitted in maintaining a specified dimension in machining a piece
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10 posted 10-17-2002 01:34 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

"get them help"

sighing again..
NO SUCH THING--
help, is something that you do for yourself. Through understanding of self...you can't stop a reaction until you understand the cause and effect, and while there ARE wonderful people who can help you on this journey (for that is what it is) no one can magically transport you to that path. Even if they could? you'd run like hell--pell-mell through the wood. It's got to be an...epiphany.

I need to think on this one a bit--because I DO see this from both sides of coin.

I do know one thing, tho--for sure...I cannot tolerate being "tolerated"--

I realize we all do this to some degree, as a matter of being human--but? I think I am to a point now where I don't think I could participate in a relationship that required the implied martyrdom of "toleration." I want---mutual respect.

To sum it up? I want to feel universal applause in the sound of one person clapping.

wish me luck?

(yeah...I KNOW...serenity exits...feeling doomed...)

"I've looked at clouds from both sides now..."
Cpat Hair
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11 posted 10-17-2002 08:18 AM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

MsDevine: Thanks for the  definitions. It is still not at all clear to me, and probably because I have not asked the question in a way that is articulate.

Ser... No one wants to be tolerated, just tolerated if they truly have any self dignity. I agree mutual respect is very very important. I also understand you will not change a person just because you want them to change. I appreciate your insight here.

This question stems from my own personal relationship with my Sister that is dealing with both an addictive abuse issue and emotional behavior that could be seen as self destructive. She for years has abused drugs and booze, nearly killed herself years ago in an accident, and managed to create huge issues for the 4 girls she brought into this world. I received a weding invitation from one of her girls and it took me back to my own actions and or lack of action in dealing with her issues over the years. I took what seems to be MsDevine's approach for the most part, hating the actions but accepting the person. I sometimes wonder if I did more harm than good or if I could have done more. I appreciate everyone's comments and insights... I'm not sure I am any closer to knowing or understanding my own role in her issues, but I at least have a bit more to think about and try to sort out now..

thanks again

Ron
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12 posted 10-17-2002 10:16 AM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

Ron, did you ever tell her she was doing herself and her family harm? I'm sure you did at some point in some way. You are not responsible for her actions and as for enabling her? No. You loved her. And that is never wrong.

I believe things happen for a reason - and in their own time. We can be told over and over that we need to do something but if the time and the motivation isn't right, it 'ain't gonna happen'.

When I was married, my husband smoked (something I had never done). Our kids started getting on him to quit and I encouraged him also. I was tolerant of his smoking in the house but I would never buy him cigarettes. He eventually quit (and died later of something else).

So enjoy the wedding. Hug your niece. And don't feel that you were enabling your sister. You loved her...
 
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