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Master
Senior Member
since 1999-08-18
Posts 1867
Boston, MA

0 posted 2002-08-13 10:19 PM


Dear Administrator,

In all honesty, I found your post “An Important Message for ALL Teen Forum Members” rather offensive. I didn’t like the way you handled this by posting it front of everybody, instead of talking to those who were the cause of the problem. I've decided to respond accordingly. I also didn’t like the fact that you closed the thread without allowing us to give you some feedback. Although it is a Teen Poetry forum, most, if not all of us, here are young adults and deserve to be treated as such. Allow me to critique your post. First of all, I didn’t like the word usage in “bickering.” Personally, I felt that were discussing a rather important issue that shouldn’t remain ignored. I also disagree with the point you made about our arguments “lowering the morale of the Forum.” In fact, I’ve been posting poetry in Teen Forum since Teen Forum #1, and this is truly the first time I’ve seen a lot of honest responses from a lot of different poets. This is exactly the kind of poetry Forum I want and I’m sure that many other poets agree with me on this issue. As a community, we have to learn to write better and the only way to achieve this is through critique, even though at times it might hurt some egos. If we simply pass by, without saying anything at all, how are we to learn to write better poetry?

Sincerely,
Master



Check out my poetry here:

http://www.unknownpoets.com/db/authors/master



© Copyright 2002 Andrey Kneller - All Rights Reserved
Dark Enchantress
Senior Member
since 1999-07-27
Posts 1258
meet Morgana
1 posted 2002-08-13 10:56 PM


In some ways I agree and in some ways I don't.

Some replies to the arguements/discussions were entirely based on merely being rude. I think that disagreements are great, but in some cases it just brings out the worst in us. In this case I agree with their post because I understand how dreadful it is to come into the forums wondering who is going to argue with you today.

I think what bothers me more than "harsh" replies is people responding to poems blind to the perspective of the author. "Yes, it's different so let's reject it and call it wrong." seems to be the mentality to pretty much everything.

I don't see anything wrong with people being honest and disagreeing as long as it is balanced with some respect.



I'm married to Mr.Metaphor. We make love everyday.

[This message has been edited by Dark Enchantress (08-13-2002 11:03 PM).]

Kit McCallum
Administrator
Member Laureate
since 2000-04-30
Posts 14774
Ontario, Canada
2 posted 2002-08-13 10:57 PM


Master …

I appreciate your opinion and this matter, and understand that you would like some feedback, so if you'll allow me, I'll address this in a similar fashion as I did to another member who e-mailed me a similar question earlier today.

We have had numerous issues brought to our attention over the last while, on how uncomfortable the atmosphere had become in the Teen Forum, and it is the full membership in Teen that we hope will benefit from addressing this problem head on, in full public view and focus.

Administration is a difficult task, in that sometimes a light-handed, private approach will offer the best results … and at other times, a stronger approach spoken in view of the membership is the better remedy.  Personally, I wish we didn't have to do either, however problems arise, and we need to deal with them as best we can for the health of the community in general.

Sometimes, when something is dealt with privately, others assume it was merely swept under the rug, and that there were/are no consequences to the actions of those directly involved.  In this case, since the bickering was public …  the notice was made public. This was done because we recognized that there are many Teens who are frustrated with this situation and want a resolution.  

Dealing with it head-on sometimes takes the mystery out of it, ensures that the members are aware that we are aware of the problem and attempting to resolve it, and are willing to take action where necessary to improve the comfort and daily interaction of the overall forums.

Several administrators gave feedback to this post prior to posting, so I hope you understand that it was not taken lightly, and that we truly have the best interests of all members at heart.  

Moderation is a far reaching task that takes a lot of care, interest in the membership and genuine concern for making the forums a "safe" place for "all" members to enjoy through diligence, problem solving and hard work.  It can become frustrating when, as moderators, we see issues arise, tensions flare, feelings hurt, and morale decrease.  

The "Notice" has brought the issue to the forefront, where it can be acknowledged. Granted, the tone may not have been palatable, but those who know me … know I care deeply for the forums, and for the well-being of the members … that is my primary focus, as is the focus of the other administrators who assisted in reviewing the post prior to it's implementation.

Regarding the locking of the post … this was intentional, as a locked post always draws curiosity and attention, and it will help to ensure that it is noticed and read.  That does not however mean that we don't respect and appreciate constructive feedback.

I truly hope the mood in the forums can be turned around, and if this notice assists in that endeavor then it was a positive post, not a negative post, which is it's true intension.

I moderated the Teen forum for quite a while after starting at Passions, and care a great deal about all of the teens.  My hope is that it can be a comfortable home for all to feel welcome without worrying if yet another post will disintegrate into a tension filled post.

I hope I've been able to clarify some of your concerns in this regard, and I appreciate your understanding Master.

clve527
Member
since 2002-07-08
Posts 200

3 posted 2002-08-13 11:17 PM


I just want to point a few things out.  I have toned back and commented on FAR less pieces for a reason.  I seen that the good majority of people here do not want critique and once I learned that I left there work alone (whether they encourage critique or not).  Which is fine with me, I am not gaining much from having people say that I am horrible because I am honest, in fact I am gaining nothing.  But the thing is, the recent initial response to a poem in here that sparked a certain amount of anger was rightful and respectful.  Which was then returned with a response that was just plain rude.  And the worst part is that that person had nothing said in public to them.  It's obvious that favorites are played, which I guess, we should expect any different.  All I know is that there are a few factors that made the handling of this situation seem bad.  #1.)  Calling attention to members then locking the thread before feedback is allowed.  Does that seem like a good thing to do?  Wouldn't you want to see feedback on the statements made.  I know I would.  #2.) I have found that in other situations quite like this one, people of power have talked in a condescending way to the people in the situation.  Don't you think that treating us teens like adults would lead us to act more like them?  #3.) (And I know this may fall on deaf ears/ or offend.) It seems that moderators have had the oppurtunity to say what they want, while regular members seem to be looked down upon.  I realize this will happen, I am a moderator at another site, but I think that it doesn't send a very good image of the site.  
Another thing, I think there should be a thread that simply says "What is a critique?" so people can judge whether or not they really want one.  And I must clarify that "I can relate" is not much of a critique to me.  Others may see it as differently.  But I think making that kind of step would be wise.  Or if the space is available make a teen critique board, so as to allow teens that want the critique and want the suggestions to get them.  Just a thought or two.

Casey

*I apologize for any misspellings and my inabilty to link thoughts together, I don't have much time and wanted to put my two cents in.*

If all you want is emotion, go down to walmart, buy yourself a diary and hide it in a drawer where no one can see...

Master
Senior Member
since 1999-08-18
Posts 1867
Boston, MA
4 posted 2002-08-13 11:18 PM


Dear Kit,

Thank you for your clarification. I undestand that it's a hard task keeping this forum running and keeping everyone happy. I truly appreciate what you do.

At the same time, please understand that I take poetry very seriously. If I have something to say, I'd like to have the right to express my opinion though it may not be suger-coated. When Casey first posted her responses to my poem, I must say, my ego was hurt a bit. However, later, I realized that it is people like Casey that this poetry board needs and lacks. In my opinion, honesty should come before friendliness. But that's just me.

Just as a suggestion: Maybe it would all work out nicely if you can open up another teen forum where critique (though it may be harsh) would be allowed and encouraged. Although it might break this community in two and decrease the overall traffic, I think that both sides would actually benefit. Those who are serious about improving their work would get honest feeback and those who use poetry to vent would have a chance to do so without being harsly critiqued. Again, it's just a suggestion, but I think it might work. I'd like to know how other feel about this.

-- Master

Check out my poetry here:


http://www.unknownpoets.com/db/authors/master


Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354
Listening to every heart
5 posted 2002-08-13 11:25 PM


Kit indicated:  
quote:

Regarding the locking of the post … this was intentional, as a locked post always draws curiosity and attention, and it will help to ensure that it is noticed and read.  That does not however mean that we don't respect and appreciate constructive feedback.

We do appreciate your feedback, and the use of the word "bickering" is because that is exactly what was transpiring, unfortunately.  The thread that was posted by Kit was the administration's efforts to encourage everyone that the guidelines for Passions is the same throughout the entire site: treat everyone with respect.  

Your Constructive Critique indicates that you want honesty, you can take it.  Not everyone can say that, and truly feel it inside.  They think they can, but as you very well know, emotions can be fragile.  Sometimes we really don't want what we think we have asked for.  Our family-feeling forums get very personal at times with interactive communication going on via ICQ and e-mails.  Sometimes we don't know who knows who and how well.  Sometimes we have to know when people are joking...and when they are being cruel.  

Thank you for your questions, and for your anticipated understanding.

Edited comment:
Master, you say  
quote:
Although it might break this community in two and decrease the overall traffic, I think that both sides would actually benefit. Those who are serious about improving their work would get honest feeback and those who use poetry to vent would have a chance to do so without being harsly critiqued.
[sic]
There are several other websites that offer exactly this...and what Passions is striving not to do: have a break in the community.

Again, thanks.


[This message has been edited by Sunshine (08-13-2002 11:29 PM).]

Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612
Hurricane Alley
6 posted 2002-08-13 11:26 PM


We have CA for critiques, why would opening one specifically for teens be helpful? If you'd like to join the CA team, please feel free to sign up for a rotation as a DM.

Kit's thread was meant as an announcement, not a post to garner replies. We have several discussion forums for this sort of debate (and if you search, you'll find we have spoken previously about critique vs. non critique).

When the Mods or Admins receive complaints from members, they must find a way to address the problem. No one was singled out in Kit's post. It was meant to be a general statement for everyone.

Master
Senior Member
since 1999-08-18
Posts 1867
Boston, MA
7 posted 2002-08-13 11:27 PM


I realized that Casey posted her response before I had a chance to finish mine. I agree with her on splitting the forum into two. And if that's not possible,  I also think that the clarification of the word "critique" would be a good idea.  
LCBS
Senior Member
since 2001-11-29
Posts 532
Connecticut
8 posted 2002-08-13 11:30 PM


I told master I would reply to this tomorrow morning, but seeing as I can not sleep, I figure I will let my insomnia take over.  Bare with me, you are dealing with the hopeless rantings of a sleep-deprived teen...


When I read kit's post after a very long day I was angry...there is no other way to put it.  I felt that some large wrongdoing had occurred, and I egged master on to post this.  I've had time to cool down.  I see now that both Master, and Kit have very strong points, and more importantly are working towards the good of the forum.  The problem is here, what is for the good of the forum?


Now I have thought a while about this, and when I say a while I mean the last hour that I've been trying to sleep.  I think what we all (including me) need to realize is that there is a time and a place for everything.  For example (just an example), if Robins post about "proving herself" (I'm not sure of the title) was really not directed towards anyone in particular, then maybe the fact that it was posted right after the Brittany Spears discussion added to the inevitability of repercussions.  A simple misunderstanding blown out of proportions-another example, I tend to get out my soapbox a little too often, and always in the wrong place, I've made a resolution to keep my Dennis Miller style rants to a minimum, and hopefully do it in the peaceful tranquility of email and instant messaging.


It seems to me I may be on top of my soap box right now, before I trip and fall off of it, I would just like to apologize for any contribution I had to the "lowing of teen 5's moral."  However, I cannot apologize for my opinions.  They are after all, my opinions, and I love them...Maybe the way I chose to share them wasn't exactly in the best interest of the forum...but I feel overall we learned a little lesson on both human nature, and learning to keep our mouth's shut!!


~Lisa


p.s. should this be in a discussion forum?  But since there’s no teen chat anymore, do we keep it here?



I just read the responses and I must admit that I was probably the one who hated Casey the most when she joined here.  My ego was not only hurt, it was mortally wounded, but I'm over it, and I enjoy her opinions...well, most of them.  I'm not that much of an angel.

[This message has been edited by LCBS (08-13-2002 11:35 PM).]

Master
Senior Member
since 1999-08-18
Posts 1867
Boston, MA
9 posted 2002-08-13 11:35 PM


Poet deVine, I undestand where you're coming from. However, the fact that we have to search for an explanation of the word "critique" is a problem already. I think it should explained beneath the checkbox where the people make their decision. The reason I posted my response here and not in the Question and Answers section is because I wanted more people to see it. I realized that creating another teen forum is a big hassle and it might not even work out that well, but i think that teens should have a section of their own to discuss their own issues. Sometimes, I'd like to receive feedback from teens my own age and not older poets in CA.


Sunshine, I agree with you on most points. "Your Constructive Critique indicates that you want honesty, you can take it.  Not everyone can say that, and truly feel it inside." Perhaps a better explanation of "critique," as suggested by Casey, would help. Either way, I don't see how we the critiquers should be held responsible for those who cannot deal with one.

With nothign but respect,

M



Check out my poetry here:

http://www.unknownpoets.com/db/authors/master

[This message has been edited by Master (08-13-2002 11:40 PM).]

Dark Enchantress
Senior Member
since 1999-07-27
Posts 1258
meet Morgana
10 posted 2002-08-13 11:41 PM


Just a question... why was the Teen Chat forum removed? I was there one day and then a few days later - POOF! Just curious.

And yes, I have ALL the answers.. bwahahaha..

It's difficult to write down your particular views on critiques in a little box. The best thing to do I think is to try to be understanding of each other. Obviously no one is TRYING to offend someone else. For example, when Casey has ever replied to one of my poems she normally mentions something about structure or punctuation. Personally, I do care about these things because I feel that they have much to do with the "success" of the piece; however, I don't care as much about structure and format as much as I care about depth and power I can portray. So when she mentions those things I don't take them personally and become offended because I know we just have some differences. I also know that they are just opinions, which I think would help keep us all in check if we could remember that.

I think that the reason the critiques were rejected so strongly is because we're not used to them. This is a comfort zone, which it should be very comfortable and welcoming. But when you get too comfortable you can learn to lie to yourself.. to other people just for the sake of that comfort. Is that what we want? I certainly hate bickering and petty behaviours, but I believe in saying what you feel. Mind you, as long as it is within reason.


"you don't need one of these to let me inside of you" T.A.

[This message has been edited by Dark Enchantress (08-13-2002 11:57 PM).]

Auguste
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 2000-02-16
Posts 3953
By the sea
11 posted 2002-08-14 12:39 PM


An interesting discussion, but I have to say that I stand behind Kit, Sunshine and Poet deVine 100%.  

We have guidelines, okay?  We ALL have to follow them and rightfully so.  It is in the best interests of the community here, the family, if you will, to show tolerance and respect for ALL views, ALL feelings.  

That said, critique is meant to show you ways to strengthen your poetry, get your point across better, etc.  You don't personally attack the writer and call the poem trash, or that sort of thing.  You show him/her better ways to improve their work.  This is not a personality contest.  I've seen your work and know its potential.  Teen has some very good writers.  Hey, I wish some of my own work showed such promise even now.  

This is not the adults against the teens, but rather people respecting the feelings of people and ALL of us respecting the guidelines that Ron has worked so hard to put in place.  

I'm a parent and as such will give my own teenage son more rights when he's proven himself mature enough to handle them in a mature fashion.  If not, then those extra privileges are taken away.    

Teen Chat and Teen Poetry were/are privileges, as are the rest of the forums.  Each of us and myself included, need to prove ourselves worthy and mature enough for these forums.  By that, I mean respecting the guidelines and the feelings of every individual and STOP the bickering.  Yes, that word fits well.

If you don't like a poem, don't post on it.  If you have bad feelings with a member, don't read or post on their poetry.  

The word "respect" has been used throughout what I've had to say because it is what keeps this place a home, instead of just another poetry site.  Please keep that in mind when posting and interacting with fellow members.  

I've said enough!

Master
Senior Member
since 1999-08-18
Posts 1867
Boston, MA
12 posted 2002-08-14 12:47 PM


Auguste,

There is a difference between respecting one's work and ignoring one's work. I agree that I was rude in some of my comments to Casey and I"ve apologized for that to her personally and now we undestand in each other. Other than that, from what I've read, I haven't seen a disrespectul critique on here recently. If some of you feel that I was disrespectul to some of you, we can discuss that as well. And if I was wrong, I'll apologize. But as I've said, i'm not going to stop being honest with people who request critiques in their posts, even if i may sound harsh.

Dark Enchantress
Senior Member
since 1999-07-27
Posts 1258
meet Morgana
13 posted 2002-08-14 01:25 AM


I really don't like being talked to as if I'm a child who has been caught sneaking out at night. Maybe it's just me, but that seems to be flaring up a bit.

I'm not on either side of the equation because I believe in balance. Balance above either extreme seems right in any case.

It seems like once again we're just arguing opinions and there's really no point in that since I'm sure none of us are in a state of mind to change (not that a change is necessarily right).

This issue is tired and so am I. Perhaps that's why I'm getting a little bitter. I'll shut up now just in case.



"you don't need one of these to let me inside of you" T.A.

[This message has been edited by Dark Enchantress (08-14-2002 01:27 AM).]

WhiteRose
Member Elite
since 2002-07-23
Posts 3208
somebody's dungeon
14 posted 2002-08-14 01:39 AM


I had a thought. Why don't we just say that if you want a critique of the poem simply ask for it. Post it with the poem. The rest of the time just post the poems of the heart that we poets are so famous for and not worry about any negative feedback. No new forum, just do it all in one place.

In truth, what defines us is our poetry.

Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612
Hurricane Alley
15 posted 2002-08-14 01:48 AM


There is a space - right up there that says "Master encourages Constructive Critiques:"

Critiquing is difficult. You tread a fine line. Critiques must be done with equal parts honesty and equal parts compassion. I think there are a few poets here who do really good critiques - others just give opinions.

One of the things that makes PiP so unique and successful is that we don't expect everyone to be a perfect poet! We all have faults, bad days and writer's block. But we accept each poem as something precious - something from the poet's  heart. So you see, a harsh critique is like telling someone their newborn baby is ugly!

I applaud you for wanting to be critiqued - that means you're growing as a poet. And I applaud those who critique with compassion.

Master
Senior Member
since 1999-08-18
Posts 1867
Boston, MA
16 posted 2002-08-14 02:12 AM


Poet deVine,

a) lol to the ugly baby metaphor!  

b) Most of the time, I tend to avoid commenting on poetry that I don't like. The only time I do is when I either see potential in the poem or when the author of the poem was either disrespectful to me or to someone else, -- then I usually give a harsh (but still honest) critique/opinion. Now, I don't want to get into the whole thing of who started it and who's to blame, because we all know that i'm innocent   (just kidding), but I'm sticking to what I said earlier.

c) I think that certain opinions, as long as they relate to the work at question, are valid. Some poets need a reality check. If the baby is ugly I won't say that it's the cutest thing I've ever seen... that's all I'm saying.

With nothing but respect,

M

PS: To the mods and administrators: This topic was closed earlier tonight and later opened up to responses again. Next time, I would appreciate to be notified of the reason for it. Thanks!



Check out my poetry here:

http://www.unknownpoets.com/db/authors/master

[This message has been edited by Master (08-14-2002 02:16 AM).]

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669
Michigan, US
17 posted 2002-08-14 06:39 AM


Two wrongs don't make a right, they just make a confused mess. Multiply those two wrongs by a few score (which may WELL include a few made by me) and the inevitable result is - Teen Poetry #5.

Case in point. I don't care if someone has set their critique flag to yes, and I don't care what they said in their critique message, telling someone the poem they just posted isn't even poetry is NOT acceptable. Never has been. Never will be. If you can't be constructive, don't post. If you can't be encouraging, don't post. If the only way you know to be honest is to be brutal, don't post. If you care more about the poem than you do about the poet, don't post. Frankly, you're probably at the wrong web site, because as much as we love poetry here, our bottom line will ALWAYS be people. (Not incidentally, any writer who doesn't care about people will find they have very little to say TO people.)

Case in point. I don't care if someone has set their critique flag to no, and I don't care how gentle they asked others to be in their critique message, responding to a harsh critique with sarcasm and anger is NOT acceptable. Doesn't matter if you think their critique was unfair or unjustified. Doesn't even matter if they were blatantly mean to you. Respecting the rights of others is easy when we're all buddy-buddy, but it only MATTERS when opinions differ and tempers run hot. If your respect for them and this web site is that shallow, don't even bother posting. You, too, are in the wrong place.

Case in point. If someone tells you they don't want critiques, it is NOT polite to suggest your response to their poem would be different if they did. Their decision shouldn't even be mentioned, let alone questioned. If someone tells you they don't want your particular critiques, or that they didn't like your suggestions, and even if they do so ignobly, calling them names or making other snide comments is NOT acceptable. Hell, it doesn't even make sense. Presumably, you wanted to help them. Failing that, you want to trash them instead?

Case in point. It's perfectly all right to have your own reasons for posting poetry here. It's commendable to want to write better, and it's even okay to believe you have the perfect plan for accomplishing your goal. But assigning your own motivations, your own goals, and especially your own perfect plan to everyone else in the world is NOT acceptable. If you want to be the next Tiger Woods, go for it. But there are a lot of other people who just want to spend a lazy Sunday afternoon playing golf with their friends. And even those with goals similar to your own won't necessarily agree with your perfect plan. People are different, and accepting those differences is a really big part of respect and tolerance.

Lots of wrongs, spread around pretty widely. Lots of problems. But those problems have little to do with the lack of critiques or the lack of good poetry, but rather with the lack of respect. Too many people in here are utterly convinced they are right and everyone else is wrong. Sorry, guys, but that's a load of crap. Anyone who lets their anger and frustration dictate their words and actions is just plain wrong. And too many wrongs will never make anything right.

A few of you, I think, are in the process of learning what I mean. Some of those who first prompted Kit's post, and who provided some of the examples I cited above, have turned down a different path in the last few weeks. That change of direction is precisely why Kit's post didn't name names or point fingers. We see the progress made, and we DO appreciate the cooperation. Unfortunately, not all those involved have been so inclined. Some have, instead, chosen to make excuses and justifications and have even blatantly lied. Kit's post serves as a last warning to those few who refuse to learn. Those who find fault with any part of the post, or in the way it was handled, can blame me. I felt it was important to get the message to everyone in here, not just a select handful, and far too few of you ever venture outside into our usual discussion forums. Teen Poetry was Kit's first forum, long before she agreed to be an Admin, and I know it's still very special to her. She has done more than any other person here to keep our teen projects alive, and is the LAST person anyone in this forum should chastise. Without Kit, this forum wouldn't exist today. She deserves better from you guys.

Shortly after Teen Chat was closed, during a discussion in the Lounge, I laid out what I thought were the four criteria we would need to meet to bring back a teen discussion forum. The very first of those four was, "No forum specific rules. Any rule that applies to teens has to apply to everyone at pipTalk. And visa versa."

I have always tried to treat you guys like adults, the same as I treat anyone else in our home. The flip side of that is that I've always expected - and at times, demanded - that you act like adults. Pretty much the same as I treat anyone else in our home. We have a variety of forums because I realize people are different and have different comfort zones, but I have never actively encouraged segregation. Open Poetry is open to everyone. And so, too, is Critical Analysis. I'm not necessarily against a Teen Critiques forum, and I'll certainly listen to reasoned arguments, but I also have to question whether it's not a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it, too. In one breath you ask to be treated like adults and in the next you don't want to be around adults? If the purpose of a critique is to learn, where best can that purpose be fulfilled?

I would rather that those interested in deep critiques post in CA. Not just so you can learn about poetry, but even more so that you can learn about critiquing from people who have been doing it a while.

Consider this. Person A posts a poem and Person B responds with an in-depth critique. Person A gets mad. Is it always Person A's fault they didn't appreciate the critique? Or is it just marginally possible that Person B didn't effectively do his job? I put to you that any failure to communicate, whether in poetry or prose or critiques, is always the failure of the writer. Always! Any writer who doesn't recognize that, who consistently blames all misunderstandings on the density of his readers, is doomed to habitual frustration. A critique is no different than a short story, a sestina, or the lyrics of a country song. You can do it right and get your message across. Or you can do it wrong and lose your reader. Both results rest at the feet of the writer.

Even though we have a Teen Forum, pipTalk is not a teen web site, any more than we're a Dark site or a Spiritual site or a Holiday site. I really don't care if you're young or old, dark or light, male or female. The criteria for entrance is an interest in writing, and all whom enter are treated as writers. The cost of staying, however, is a little higher than the price of admission. Your "rent" is a willingness to practice respect and tolerance and the ability to get along with the other writers in our home. And, again, I don't care if you're young or old, dark or light, male or female, the rent will remain the same for everyone here.

Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354
Listening to every heart
18 posted 2002-08-14 07:14 AM


Ron said,
quote:
Your "rent" is a willingness to practice respect and tolerance and the ability to get along with the other writers in our home. And, again, I don't care if you're young or old, dark or light, male or female, the rent will remain the same for everyone here.

Well said, Ron. My check's in the E-mail.

You have never crossed your own lines of priorities for what makes Passions the site it is.  You have never wavered from what is good for one, is good for all.  It would be easy to cave in sometimes, here and there, and you don't cave.  That's why Passions is so strong in membership, and why the numbers, found here, http://sm6.sitemeter.com/default.asp?action=stats&site=sm2netpoets prove your very own words.

I am proud to help maintain such a site as this, and I believe that the teens will come to realize just how fortunate we ALL are, to be welcomed in your home.

Kit McCallum
Administrator
Member Laureate
since 2000-04-30
Posts 14774
Ontario, Canada
19 posted 2002-08-14 08:15 AM


I went to bed shortly after I replied, so I am just catching up on the overnight discussion before I head to the office, so I apologize if I pop all over here, addressing a variety of issues …

Lisa asked if this should be moved to a Discussion Forum.  Since I responded to Master here in this post, I did not wish this post to be moved, as I welcomed constructive discussion, and since the "Notice" was there in Teen, felt that this is an exception to the usual rule, so that others could follow the progress of the discussion. In that regard, I understand that it was immediately re-opened after it's closure.

Dark Enchantress:  
quote:
In this case I agree with their post because I understand how dreadful it is to come into the forums wondering who is going to argue with you today.
I appreciate this comment, as this was the overall feeling that had been portrayed to us, and was the concern we were attempting to address with the "Notice".

As several have stated, we all have our rights to our opinions … as we well should … there is nothing wrong with that, however, we need to be cognizant of the fact that we must respect each other's opinions as well, and deal with each other with respect and tolerance.  

Casey and Master have both mentioned the need for wording that describes "What is a Critique", and I think that is a valid point. I had addressed that in my original note here, however, before posting, I refreshed my page and see that Ron has addressed this, so I've removed some of my comments, and will perhaps deal with this more from an example standpoint that is personal in nature.

I think Karilea pointed out that although some ask for critiques, "sometimes we don't really want what we think we have asked for".  I think many times that is very true. My personal critique statement says: Kit McCallum encourages Constructive Critiques: "On the gentle side, LOL ..." Even my lol is part of my critique notice - hopefully giving the heads up to the reader, that I wouldn't want to be dealt with in too harsh a manner, in the regular forums, although I do appreciate constructive input.  

I've posted once in Critical Analysis personally, and found their responses to be incredibly helpful … but I was also "prepared" to deal with critical feedback there in a constructive, detailed and helpful light, and knew what I was asking for by posting there. I had an idea of what to expect, as that is the nature of the forum, and I could see that because I reviewed many CA posts prior to posting myself.  Once posted, I bit my nails to the bone waiting to see what the responses would be. For me … it was nerve wracking, but I wanted the experience, and was very glad I did so. Constructive points made to me at that time, I have kept in mind since then, and strive with every new poem I write, to follow several notations made to me, that I learned there. If however, I felt that I was going to receive that same level of critique each time I posted in Open, I think (no … I know) I would be a nervous wreck.   That's part of my personality, and I think emulates a few others here in the forums as well. It may explain why some appreciate more in-depth critiques in the regular forums, and why others don't.  We all have different personalities, and we're all here for different reasons … it helps to be in tune with each other and recognize the level of response that we each appreciate. This goes back to comments made by Ron, Karilea and Poet deVine, in that the Critical Analysis Forum is a wonderful forum for the more in-depth critiques, and in hindsight, after reading Ron's comment, critiquing is an "art" that many of the CA members do very, very well, and I think, do not get the applause they rightfully deserve. Not only are they writers learning their craft for their own purposes… but they have an additional craft that they have learned and have honed, which is critiquing … and this is an art unto itself.

As Lisa noted … regarding an initial critique, that "My ego was not only hurt, it was mortally wounded, but I'm over it , and I enjoy her opinions...well, most of them".  I understand this, and I would hope that if I received what appeared to be a harsh critique to something I wrote in the general forums, that I could bounce back as well, and take it in stride. Not everyone has that kind of confidence however, and it is something to keep in mind, as we all try to learn our craft.  Like Master, I take poetry very seriously as well … it has been my hobby for over 30 years.  I think if I was on the receiving end of harsh comments when I was just starting up … it could have changed the direction of my writing … it could have "made me" or "broken me". It's hard to say which … I guess it would depend on how the feedback came in to me, and how my personality perceived it. That's a personal and unique vantage to each of us … and we'll each respond differently. I was not that confident in my writing as a Teen (heck, I wasn't confident … period), and I think I would have found it difficult to continue writing if I was met with harsh critiques over and over again.

I don't mind saying, that it took me a long time to get up the nerve to post in Passions, even 30 years later, as I'd seen how some other poetry boards ripped apart some of the writers. Passions was different though … Passions had compassion … Passion's poets seemed to truly care about each other, offered encouragement, and still had a forum where you could go for constructive workshops and in-depth critiques to learn our craft better.

Before joining the Passions forums, I sat back and read posts in the Forums for months, to get a feel for the flavor of the forums long before I posted my first poem here, and I've never looked back since, as this was the most welcoming and caring group I've had the pleasure of knowing.  I guess I'd like to know that "new" members can also have that welcoming feeling without worry or fear, or anxiety when they post.  I guess I'd like "everyone" to enjoy Passions as much as "I" do.  

[This message has been edited by Kit McCallum (08-14-2002 09:21 AM).]

Dark Enchantress
Senior Member
since 1999-07-27
Posts 1258
meet Morgana
20 posted 2002-08-14 10:02 AM


I agree that there doesn't need to be a Teen forum specifically for critiques. When it comes to the actual art of poetry broken down into it's basics and then built up again I don't think age is an issue.

Ron mentioned earlier up there something about how it's not right to impose your personal goals and poetic motivations on other people and that I agree with 100%. It's very frustrating to try and "come into yourself" when you've got people telling you the "right" thing to do.

I also think it comes back to going to the actual forum for critiques because as others have said.. the poets in there have much more of a clue as to what they're doing. I don't really know anything about poetry so why should I pretend to by posting in depth critiques or "country songs" as Ron put it ( )? Makes sense, right?

I'd hope that we all can come to some kind of balance because I'd really hate to see anyone leave over some silly bickering (to use the ever popular word for it once again   ).

I have much respect for the poets here (particularly for my elders and Admin.) so if I ever have seemed anything less than respectful I apologize. I just had to be honest about some things that troubled me. I too would hate to feel the need to leave over some silly bickering.


"you don't need one of these to let me inside of you" T.A.

[This message has been edited by Dark Enchantress (08-14-2002 10:05 AM).]

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
21 posted 2002-08-14 10:46 AM


Since the Critical Analysis Forum keeps popping up through this discussion, I guess I should throw in my 2 cents worth, although all of has really been said in one form or another above.

The purpose of a critique (at least in the PIP family) is to help the author improve a particular piece and, from that learning process, improve his or her overall writing skills. Comments like, "This is not a poem", "This is crap", "It was a waste of time to bother posting this here", "You would know a poem if it..." are not critiques. If that is all you have to say then just keep it to yourself. If there is any truth to it then most everyone else will do the same. Besides, that is just your opinion and is no better or more valid than anyone's opinion.

It may be that you just don't like a particular poem. If so, it is alright to say that in CA. But it would be much more useful if you could at least state why you don't like it. Maybe you don't really understand why you don't like it. If that is the case then you might say, "It may be just me but for some reason I can't relate to this piece." I'm not trying to word it for you but only to suggest how you might say that without being rude. If you hang around CA for a while and read, you will begin to develop some better critiquing skills.

CA is where in-depth critiques are always appropriate and encouraged. Anyone interested in such is invited to join us. Bear in mind, however, that we comment on poetry rather than poets there too. Rude or snide remarks and personal attacks are not allowed in CA any more than any other forum. So come join us but you still have to play nice there too.

Thanks,
Pete

Toad
Member
since 2002-06-16
Posts 161

22 posted 2002-08-14 11:32 AM


Master

I’d like to congratulate you on stepping forward and voicing your opinion, few people seem to make the effort to say what they think or feel but it’s only when they do and through subsequent open discussion and debate that any progress can really be made.


It’s hard for me to form a true and clear picture of what transpired to make such a post necessary, given that there must be large pieces of the puzzle that have been removed by the moderators for being in clear breach of the rules of these forums. The little that remains seems to be a minor matter that had been resolved by most of those involved taking the view ‘that not rising to the bait’ is probably the best policy. My commenting on the affair armed with only the ghost of a perception would be foolhardy so I’ll refrain from doing so.

With regard to critical analysis, I’ve come to believe that the inclusion and incursion of critical comments in an open forum such as Teen is a mistake. People are fickle creatures who require the ability to decide on a post by post basis what they do and definitely do not want dissecting by a critical audience and those looking to dissect need a clearly defined fenced area in which to do it. Should that be a separate pasture for Adults and teens? I don’t think so, for the same reasons that Ron and others have pointed to. Is the CA forum such a place? My honest answer as it stands now would have to be no, but it could so easily be yes. The way I see it one of the biggest stumbling blocks against posting in CA is that the audience there  is minuscule compared with the other forums, why post to an audience of 5 when you can post to a potential audience of 500 (don’t quote me on the figures Pete )?

Would it not make sense to allow both types of replies but in clearly defined areas? All it would take is a relaxing of the double post rule to allow simultaneous submission in BOTH the Ca forum and teen and open. Critical comments (that adhere strictly to the guidelines of course) would be posted in CA and general comments in open or Teen. You could include a link in your post or a message that directed people to the alternative post so they can reply in the appropriate way in the appropriate place. People would be more likely to give it a try if there was a reduced chance of underexposure and the added benefit would be that people could pick and choose which poems they want in-depth comments on and which they don’t. CA would enjoy more traffic into the bargain, perhaps creating enough interaction to encourage more participation.

What do you think?

Thanks for the chance to read and reply

[This message has been edited by Toad (08-14-2002 11:38 AM).]

Master
Senior Member
since 1999-08-18
Posts 1867
Boston, MA
23 posted 2002-08-14 02:32 PM


I think all of this has gotten a bit out of hand.

First of all, I apologize to Robin for saying that her writing had no potential to be a poem. I agree that was a bit too harsh and next time, I won't make my opinion public.

Secondly, I apologize to Kit for my tone of voice in the beginning of this post. You really are doing a great job and I applaud you for it!

Lastly, I think Ron was right. A poetry forum that cares more about the people than the poetry is probably not the right thing for me right now. With that said, I think I need to take a little break from PiP, an indefinite vacation, sort of. I'll still check in once in a while to read some of your work.

Peace

Master

Check out my poetry here:


http://www.unknownpoets.com/db/authors/master


Toad
Member
since 2002-06-16
Posts 161

24 posted 2002-08-14 07:25 PM



Master

I’ve enjoyed reading your poems for a long time, I haven’t replied too often but that’s a failure on my part and nothing to do with the quality of the work I’ve seen you produce. The fact that you have decided to take a break over what seems a minor incident doesn’t seem to fit with the intelligent individual that comes across in your work.

I think you’re making a mistake and hopefully you’ll reconsider given time but at the end of the day the decision is yours, if you do decide to take an indefinite hiatus I wish you nothing but good luck.

PS

Why not simply make a fresh start with a new name – it works for me.

Craig
Coof
Caul
Coegwyr
Shou-Lao
Phaedrus
Toad

Master
Senior Member
since 1999-08-18
Posts 1867
Boston, MA
25 posted 2002-08-14 07:52 PM


Toad,

lol to the names  

I'm not taking a break only because of that minor incident. I just need a break from posting my poetry on the internet all together. I feel rather drained because I spend way too much time checking for replies to my poems rather that working on improving them. I'm going to write some new stuff on my own and I'll return here when I have enough to share. Peace to you all,

M

Check out my poetry here:

http://www.unknownpoets.com/db/authors/master




[This message has been edited by Master (08-14-2002 07:56 PM).]

Toad
Member
since 2002-06-16
Posts 161

26 posted 2002-08-14 07:59 PM



That’s fine, I look forward to reading your new work on your return.

Craig

Kevin
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Senior Member
since 1999-11-02
Posts 729
Torrington, Ct, Usa
27 posted 2002-08-14 09:12 PM


bro you need to let me know where you'll be in the meantime

peace

LCBS
Senior Member
since 2001-11-29
Posts 532
Connecticut
28 posted 2002-08-14 09:59 PM


I know where to find you
Master
Senior Member
since 1999-08-18
Posts 1867
Boston, MA
29 posted 2002-08-14 11:02 PM


If you guys want to continue to read my poems, visit my website (see signature). I'll post all the good ones there. If you want to talk to me on AIM, email me kneller@brandeis.edu. Later!

Check out my poetry here:


http://www.unknownpoets.com/db/authors/master


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