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Teen Poetry #5
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clve527
Member
since 2002-07-08
Posts 200


0 posted 2002-07-09 01:57 PM


Poetry is easy.

It is titling that is like crossing a river
with a current that is too strong
for your limbs to handle.

The body of the work comes easily,
then after the editing comes the title,
and regardless of your hopes
to be daring and place “Untitled” above,
you know you must squeeze out
the last few drops of creativity.

First you stare at the first line,
and contemplate being like Emily
(or rather the way she was made)
and make the reader mull over
the first line twice, as if it had
two times more importance
than every other line.

Then, against your better judgement,
you delve into the depths of the middle,
hoping that for once, the title will appear
like an epiphany on a warm summer day,
but it never happens that way.

So you toss your masterpiece aside,
knowing that some day the title will come
out of some song or movie, but you
will have long lost the poem
under the other crumpled papers
of unfinished creativity.

Casey

© Copyright 2002 clve527 - All Rights Reserved
curlygurly
Member
since 2000-09-12
Posts 276
USA
1 posted 2002-07-09 06:35 PM


you're right, it's so hard to put it all together. you can come up with such a great idea for a poem, but by the time it's done, you think it sucks!

"Don't be ashamed to cry, let me see you through, cuz i've seen the dark side too" The Pretenders

chasing rain
Senior Member
since 2001-05-15
Posts 737
Canada
2 posted 2002-07-09 06:56 PM


clve527-

There is a lot of truth in what you write. ^^ It almost makes you wonder about how each and every unfinished poem would turn out if it had been finished.

you know you must squeeze out
the last few drops of creativity.


-I found so much truth in these lines. Sometimes, poetry is like a competition of creativity, and it ends up getting to your head instead of from the heart.

and contemplate being like Emily
(or rather the way she was made)


-Out of curiousity, who is Emily?

Overall, nicely done! And welcome to PIP! I hope you enjoy it here!


-Leah-
LCBS
Senior Member
since 2001-11-29
Posts 532
Connecticut
3 posted 2002-07-09 08:27 PM


nice use of punctuation
clve527
Member
since 2002-07-08
Posts 200

4 posted 2002-07-09 09:35 PM


curlygurly- I’m glad you could relate, I always have a hard time with the titles of my work.

chasing rain-  Emily is Emily Dickenson, as I understood she titled none of her work.  So naturally when it was released, editors chose to title her work by the first line of the poem.  I could be wrong but that is what I understood.

LCBS- Yes it is good punctuation.  It rounds out the poem well, as punctuation almost always does.

Some editors are failed writers, but so are most writers.
-   T. S. Eliot

MidnightSon
Member
since 2002-05-15
Posts 312
between the gutter & the stars
5 posted 2002-07-09 10:50 PM


LOL @ LCBS
________

i agree. titling is tough.

LCBS
Senior Member
since 2001-11-29
Posts 532
Connecticut
6 posted 2002-07-18 01:41 PM


You said before that I have not read enough of your poetry to see where you are as a poet.  Well it seems to me that this is the only poem you have posted. I would really love to read more.

~Lisa

Master
Senior Member
since 1999-08-18
Posts 1867
Boston, MA
7 posted 2002-07-18 02:08 PM


Based on this poem, I don't see how what you've written differs from a well-written journal entry. It's not very creative at all. "the current of the river" is a cliche, and I found the ending a bit predictble and boring. I did like the stanza about Emily, but even that could have been presented a bit better. In all honesty, I'm a rhymer and I look down on free-verse because 99% of what I've read (classics included) fails to interest me and make an impact. Thus, feel free to ignore my comments as I know little about and care little for this style of poetry. Best of luck to you in the future. I appreciate your honesty when it comes to other people's work, but try not too be less harsh with your comments.

--M

PS: "Me doesn't have no need for grammar" was just a joke. Don't take it to heart.

Check out my poetry here:


http://www.unknownpoets.com/db/authors/master


clve527
Member
since 2002-07-08
Posts 200

8 posted 2002-07-18 02:18 PM


Don't worry I knew it was a joke, although it wasn't funny.  And unlike you I don't like rhyming poetry especially from teens.  99.99% of it is forced and boring and has nothing new to say.  And don't worry, I will ignore your remarks especially since you have no confidence in them.

Casey

P.S.  I am not harsh, I am honest.  And if people cannot handle honesty, then they should not request critiques in the first place.

Some editors are failed writers, but so are most writers.
-   T. S. Eliot

[This message has been edited by clve527 (07-18-2002 02:29 PM).]

Master
Senior Member
since 1999-08-18
Posts 1867
Boston, MA
9 posted 2002-07-18 06:02 PM


Ignorance is bliss. You're quite arrogant for someone whose poetry isn't all that great anyway. Keep reading my poems, you've got a lot to learn...

Check out my poetry here:


http://www.unknownpoets.com/db/authors/master


clve527
Member
since 2002-07-08
Posts 200

10 posted 2002-07-18 06:27 PM


Learn From your work?  Your work is trite, Master.  I have read the same topics from dozens of other teens.  You aren't god's gift to poetry, not in the least.  And neither am I, but I am sorry, I do put more effort into learning the craft.  Punctuation is a part of poetry, and the fact that you can't grasp that concept shows a lot about you as a poet (although you don't much deserve that title).  And you don't want critiques, you want people to sit and say how wonderful your work is.  But it's not true, nor is it of anyone's work here, everyone needs help.  Every poem can be better (some more so than others) and the fact that you, as well as everyone else, can't see that fact shows how little you respect the craft.  So come back and talk to me when you are willing to improve, because you obviously aren't willing to, nor are you willing to actually help others.

Casey

If all you want is emotion, go down to walmart, buy yourself a diary and hide it in a drawer where no one can see...

Dark Enchantress
Senior Member
since 1999-07-27
Posts 1258
meet Morgana
11 posted 2002-07-18 09:25 PM


Boys, boys... lets take a deep breath before you both get sent to a corner. What's this? Arguing over a matter of opinion? Everybody has a different view on poetry just like everyone has a different view on art, politics, literature, and so on... so what's the point of arguing who's right and who's wrong? It's just an opinion and anyone who has confidence in their opinion doesn't need to run around trying to prove how right they are. How about we all practice having an open mind?



"if you know me so well then tell me which hand do I use?" Tori Amos

[This message has been edited by Dark Enchantress (07-19-2002 11:03 AM).]

Master
Senior Member
since 1999-08-18
Posts 1867
Boston, MA
12 posted 2002-07-18 11:44 PM


I won't argue with you. Time is too precious. But I'll promise you this: your grandkids will know my poetry by heart! Later...
devil_tongue
Member
since 2000-03-02
Posts 50

13 posted 2002-07-19 08:53 AM


You say you like honesty, alright. Here we go.

It is titling that is like crossing a river
with a current that is too strong
for your limbs to handle.

Your opening is weak. They are meant to be the basis for your piece and this doesn't set anything up for me to delve into.

The body of the work comes easily,
then after the editing comes the title,
and regardless of your hopes
to be daring and place “Untitled” above,
you know you must squeeze out
the last few drops of creativity.

The first four lines are fairly good but "you know you must squeeze out
the last few drops of creativity." sends it straight to hell and back. it simply doesn't go with what is already written (typed) there. Perhaps a play around with some words would strengthen it a bit?

First you stare at the first line,
and contemplate being like Emily
(or rather the way she was made)
and make the reader mull over
the first line twice, as if it had
two times more importance
than every other line.

This stanza I really like. Emily Dickenson is a fabulous poet and the simple way that you have described her brings a lot to this piece.

Then, against your better judgement,
you delve into the depths of the middle,
hoping that for once, the title will appear
like an epiphany on a warm summer day,
but it never happens that way.

I didn't like the surprise rhyme here. it doesn't go with the rest of the poem and as such makes that particular stanza read terribly. I'd say use another word because it seriously makes the piece look tacky.

So you toss your masterpiece aside,
knowing that some day the title will come
out of some song or movie, but you
will have long lost the poem
under the other crumpled papers
of unfinished creativity.

The first word that sprung to mind when I read this stanza was arrogant. The fact that you wrote how the title will come out in a song or movie one day does nothing but highlight an attempt at a superior attitude. I didn't like the ending in case you hadn't gathered.

Now before I conclude this reply, I do not expect to be attacked within these blue pages. You asked for honesty and honesty you received. I will not be impressed if you decide to try and cut down someone that replied to your piece. Be grateful for that much.

clve527
Member
since 2002-07-08
Posts 200

14 posted 2002-07-19 11:22 AM


Thank you for your honesty.  I have had this poem read by many older more experienced poets who didn't have a problem with the things you did, but to each his own.  Besides it is good to have opinions from varying people.  The end rhyme was not intended, but I will look into changing it.  Tacky usually isn't a word I think of when an end rhyme is put in, but again to each his own.  Although I do have a question.  How is finding a title from a song or movie arrogant?  That fact doesn't make all that much sense to me, and yet to have anyone else even remotely think that.  Thanks.

Casey

If all you want is emotion, go down to walmart, buy yourself a diary and hide it in a drawer where no one can see...

SavingGrace
Junior Member
since 2002-05-31
Posts 26
not yet found
15 posted 2002-07-19 09:37 PM


in repliance to what people are saying about your own replies, being honest is one thing, there are ways to say things nicely and ways of doing it with encouragement. obviously you don't know how to do that b/c you are just plain cruel and quite frankly, i really do not like your poem. you don't show off much of your "talent" in this just as you request of everyone else. you are just not nice and you need to learn how to be more positive, you may not like someone's poem, but at least be nice and encouraging. but of course i didnt do any of this for you because you arent nice so i wont be nice to you.

~*Grace*~
You wouldn't be so concerned with what people thought of you if you only knew how seldom they did...

clve527
Member
since 2002-07-08
Posts 200

16 posted 2002-07-19 09:47 PM


But you know something, if I had posted this poem only and no replies to anyone else's work, how much would you like to bet that you would have complimented this?  Or for that fact all the people that insulted it?  It's quite funny, the dynamic of human behavior.  How we base our opinions on how other people act towards one another, not upon a poem's merit.  Not saying my poem is great or even good, but I highly doubt you would have said it was bad if I would have gone around saying "I can really relate to this." on every poem.  Just an observation.

If all you want is emotion, go down to walmart, buy yourself a diary and hide it in a drawer where no one can see...

kaile
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Ascendant
since 2000-02-06
Posts 5146
singapore
17 posted 2002-07-20 08:21 AM


actually casey, if you just posted this and not replied to anyone else's work, few people would even bother to click on your thread..

you know you must squeeze out
the last few drops of creativity.

been that, felt that, done that ...

hmmm, i don't understand why a poem is lost and unfinished when it doesn't have a title...would you mind explaining your take on this subject? i promise i won't bite...

and i chuckled at your "poetry is easy" and "masterpiece"...hell, we all think we are great writers, even if deep down we have doubts about our writing...

keep writing!

kaile
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Ascendant
since 2000-02-06
Posts 5146
singapore
18 posted 2002-07-20 08:26 AM


er, belated welcome to passions...

actually, i was motivated to comment on your poems because it's hard to find someone in passions who is willing to critique...i hope you would comment on my poetry(or drivel) here, no-holds-barred??

[This message has been edited by faterider (07-20-2002 08:28 AM).]

Acies
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 2000-06-07
Posts 7665
Twilight Zone
19 posted 2002-07-23 10:37 PM


First of all, as one of your Senior Moderators in teen, I'd like to welcome you to Passions for Poetry.  I know I'm late, but better late than never, right?  

I see you've caused so much of a stir around these pages already.  That's good.  I like seeing members such as you trying to get better at poetry.  But, would all of you please keep these arguements in an orderly and respectable manner.  Or maybe let's not argue at all, let's have a discussion instead.  A little tact from every member won't hurt.

I'm not pointing you out for I've seen other members also doing the same thing.  So, this message goes to them too.  


Back to the poem..........

As you said, you'd like to hear my honest opinion ,so here it goes.  I only had one problem with the entire poem.  I believe cutting the second stanza into two sentences, instead of one long one, would be better.  That's just my opinion.

Thanks for sharing, and enjoy PIP.




là où est mon amour?
donde está mi amour?
wo ist meine Liebe?
Nelly Furtado é a menina a mais bonita no mundo largo do todo.



[This message has been edited by acire (07-23-2002 10:40 PM).]

Spine Grinder
Senior Member
since 2000-10-28
Posts 1127
Standing In Silence...
20 posted 2002-07-24 06:54 PM


ok, poetry's NOT easy, not all the time, and i didnt exactly like this poem...i'm being TOTALLY honest and u sed so urself u want honesty

~In the end..it doesn't even matter...~LP

clve527
Member
since 2002-07-08
Posts 200

21 posted 2002-07-24 07:06 PM


I also want correct spelling of the word said if it isn't too much to ask.

Casey

If all you want is emotion, go down to walmart, buy yourself a diary and hide it in a drawer where no one can see...

Punk Angel
Member
since 2001-07-25
Posts 66
Pennsylvania, US
22 posted 2002-07-24 07:17 PM


Casey, are you a teacher or something to be so worried about correct puncation? and how can you sit here and tell everyone to be honest, and then get upset n feel the need to make a rude comment when we are? personally, i didnt like this poem very much at all, and if you cant accept the fact that not everyone is willing to be as picky about their poetry as you, then maybe you shouldnt be here. PIP is not a school, or a dention center, it is a place for people to write their feelings and emotions into poetry form and then share them with others. if you are going to be snooty and pay more attention as to how the poem is written and not what it is trying to say, then you are not a poet. we do not post our poems to get a lecture about how many words we misspelled, we post our poems so that people can get enjoyment out of read a work of art, because no matter how big or small, bad or good a poem is, it is a work of art. so maybe you should think about it before you go critizing someone elses piece of work, because in my eyes, you are no poet.

We love what is lost, but does what we lost love us back??    
~*Krista*~

clve527
Member
since 2002-07-08
Posts 200

23 posted 2002-07-24 07:32 PM


Maybe one day you will understand poetry.  It isn't just emotion.  If all you want is emotion, get a diary and don't show it to me.  I want to read poetry.  And if I see someone here that has potential, I am definitely going to tell them what I think would help improve their poem.  And if people do not care enough to proofread their work before displaying it, then why should I care about their poem?  They don't care about me as a reader.
Also, half of the people that commented on this are probably getting defensive over what I had said to them.  And human behavior agrees with me on that point, so please try and argue against human behavior.  And in their defense on the poem I posted following this they were more honest.  I am honest, and if someone's poem can be improved why shouldn't I tell them so?

Casey

If all you want is emotion, go down to walmart, buy yourself a diary and hide it in a drawer where no one can see...

Punk Angel
Member
since 2001-07-25
Posts 66
Pennsylvania, US
24 posted 2002-07-24 07:42 PM


escuse me casey, apparentally u have no respect for the readers/writers here. emotion is not just something that you write in a stupid diary, it is something that you experiance, and feel, and you want to share with others. if you are one of those people that do not share your emotions, then you must either be a very cold person, or just a hermit. all i know tho, is that you are the rudest person i have ever seen here, you want everyone to be honest, and then you say ignorant things back? how hypocritacal. u dont want honest opinions, you are just looking for a fight, and you wont find that here. maybe if you would spend more time thinking of a poem to write instead of agruing with everyone because we do not type as PERFECT as you, then maybe you would have all these negative critiques.
clve527
Member
since 2002-07-08
Posts 200

25 posted 2002-07-24 07:51 PM


I accept honest opinions from people that have gained my respect.  You have not. And until you and SO many others learn how to write without emotion, you will NEVER become a good poet.  It can be emotion, but one has to learn how to write poetry first.  And so few people have done that here.  You were rude to me first by the way, so don't go making me seem like the bad guy here.  Almost every first post I make on a poem is an honest critique, once a "poet" gets defensive, I am entirely entitled to do the same.


Casey

If all you want is emotion, go down to walmart, buy yourself a diary and hide it in a drawer where no one can see...

Punk Angel
Member
since 2001-07-25
Posts 66
Pennsylvania, US
26 posted 2002-07-24 08:27 PM


but casey, what is a poem without emotion? its nothing. its drab, boring, and lifeless. alot like the poem written here.
clve527
Member
since 2002-07-08
Posts 200

27 posted 2002-07-24 08:40 PM


That's fine, you are entitled to your opinion.  But mind you, you gave no suggestions, so even if I were to think that you opinion was valid I wouldn't be able to strive for improvement.  But of course why would I want to improve, being a poet doesn't mean needing improvement, right?  I shouldn't strive to be a published and RESPECTED poet, what's the point of that?  I should just pour my emotions out, right?

Casey

If all you want is emotion, go down to walmart, buy yourself a diary and hide it in a drawer where no one can see...

Spine Grinder
Senior Member
since 2000-10-28
Posts 1127
Standing In Silence...
28 posted 2002-07-24 09:16 PM


Casey, u ask 2 many questions, and i'm not seeing 2 many people answering them..wut does THAT tell u and dont EVEN tell me 2 use correct grammar, i will when i want 2, not b/c someone told me 2

~In the end..it doesn't even matter...~LP

Acies
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 2000-06-07
Posts 7665
Twilight Zone
29 posted 2002-07-25 09:52 AM


Casey --- Do you have msn messenger, Yahoo, AIM?  

Everyone including Casey --- easy now

là où est mon amour?
donde está mi amour?
wo ist meine Liebe?
Nelly Furtado é a menina a mais bonita no mundo largo do todo.


clve527
Member
since 2002-07-08
Posts 200

30 posted 2002-07-25 12:34 PM


Yes I do, if you email me I will be more than happy to give them to you.  But I will not give them publically because I have aready gotten rude emails and would rather not encourage more behavior of that sort.

Casey

If all you want is emotion, go down to walmart, buy yourself a diary and hide it in a drawer where no one can see...

Deep_Inside
Member
since 2002-02-14
Posts 377
i can't stop hiding
31 posted 2002-07-25 02:02 PM


first off clve527 please never reply to any of my poems because you have no idea what poetry is about of you think that something doesn't make sense it's because it's not for you to understand. just try putting yourself into the person's set of mind.  relate the poem as if you where the person it was writtn to, the peom is for you interpertaion as the reader what does it mean to you. now you even write poetry on how you think poems should be. if this is how you think poetry should all be you have the least imaginaion of anyone i have ever met that has even written only one poem
it's people like you. that kill real poetry

i agree with you master. his grandkids will know all peoms by heart befor he even gets published




when you live you die
when you die your forgotten
when your forgotten you truly die

[This message has been edited by Deep_Inside (07-25-2002 02:09 PM).]

Spine Grinder
Senior Member
since 2000-10-28
Posts 1127
Standing In Silence...
32 posted 2002-07-25 02:50 PM


i totally agree with everything Deep_inside just sed

~In the end..it doesn't even matter...~LP

clve527
Member
since 2002-07-08
Posts 200

33 posted 2002-07-25 03:03 PM


But above all I hope my grandchildren know how to spell.  And I am she, get it right.

Casey

If all you want is emotion, go down to walmart, buy yourself a diary and hide it in a drawer where no one can see...

Acies
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 2000-06-07
Posts 7665
Twilight Zone
34 posted 2002-07-25 05:24 PM


casey -- email it to me at   aciespip@hotmail.com

là où est mon amour?
donde está mi amour?
wo ist meine Liebe?
Nelly Furtado é a menina a mais bonita no mundo largo do todo.


Acies
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 2000-06-07
Posts 7665
Twilight Zone
35 posted 2002-07-25 05:25 PM


TACT people, we need some tact in our replies.  That goes to all of you

là où est mon amour?
donde está mi amour?
wo ist meine Liebe?
Nelly Furtado é a menina a mais bonita no mundo largo do todo.


SavingGrace
Junior Member
since 2002-05-31
Posts 26
not yet found
36 posted 2002-07-25 10:52 PM


Thank you Punk Angel you said exactly what I was thinking but I could't find the words for it. Poetry is a form of artwork. You don't tell an artist that their painting is ugly. Their painting is beautiful to them and an expression of them. You don't tell a drummer that you don't like his beats. The drummer likes them and that's who they are. You don't tell a singer you don't like their voice. That is their voice and nothing will change that, they just want to perform for those that do like their voice. Casey there is just something about the way you reply to people'e poetry that no one likes. I can't exactly pinpoint it but you are just not nice about it. You come off very snooty and disrespectful of someone else's art. What you might think is trash is another person's treasure. You act like you are so high and mighty and better than everyone else. And this will be the last I will say.

~*Grace*~
You wouldn't be so concerned with what people thought of you if you only knew how seldom they did...

SavingGrace
Junior Member
since 2002-05-31
Posts 26
not yet found
37 posted 2002-07-25 10:53 PM


This is Passions in Poetry. Key word, PASSIONS which some would link to emotion therefore poetry requires emotion Casey.

~*Grace*~
You wouldn't be so concerned with what people thought of you if you only knew how seldom they did...

[This message has been edited by SavingGrace (07-25-2002 11:00 PM).]

chasing rain
Senior Member
since 2001-05-15
Posts 737
Canada
38 posted 2002-07-26 12:43 PM


Ok, everyone, lay off Casey. Can't you people be a little more open? Casey is giving us a change here, whether it be good or bad. She's actually taking the time to read over our poems and let us know where we can improve. Not everyone has to give you comments like "I liked this. This is cool."
Personally, I thank you all for those kinds of comments, however, it's nice to know where I can fix something. As well, not everyone can be a nice Joe. The world doesn't run like that. So if we could just stop the bickering, immaturity and hipocracy and just write poetry, we'll all learn to get along better. By the way, it's a free country, so anyone can reply to anyone's posts. Geez, you people...

If you really want someone "meaner" than Casey, might I suggest http://www.everypoet.com ? Wonderful place. You can learn a lot from them, and you'll come out tougher. Trust me.

Leah

Dark Enchantress
Senior Member
since 1999-07-27
Posts 1258
meet Morgana
39 posted 2002-07-26 12:51 PM


Oh Christ, let's all jump on a bandwagon.

You know, poetry is whatever you want it to be. Why? Because it is personal. YOU write it. It comes from YOU. So why can't we all just have our own opinions, but also be open to certain ideas? Don't reject something just because it is different. PIP is a comfort zone for all of us and staying in a comfort based mentality doesn't encourage growth. If that isn't your goal then don't ask for critiques.


"if you know me so well then tell me which hand do I use?" Tori Amos


[This message has been edited by Dark Enchantress (07-26-2002 01:00 AM).]

devil_tongue
Member
since 2000-03-02
Posts 50

40 posted 2002-07-26 04:44 AM


My god you people are amusing. It's times like this the old members of PIP would be fun to have around...
Pollita
Member
since 2002-07-25
Posts 220
the unknown realm of insanity
41 posted 2002-07-26 09:14 AM


clve527,
You WILL never be a good poet if you don't learn to write WITH emotion.
Yes most people want to have honest opion...
But don't be so brutal b/c So people just don't like to hear things like that.
I've seen you around pip and the most things you do is argue with people.Yes everyone is entitled to their OWN opion but most people don't want you to be so harsh.
They might know their poem wasn't great but hey at least they tried!
Thanks to many words from my friend i realize if you belive your poems are good and beautiful then they most certainly ARE!

Wanting him is hard to get.Loving him is hard to regret.Losing him is hard to accept.But with all the hurt ifelt,letting go is the most painful yet

Android 17
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Senior Member
since 2001-07-21
Posts 664
Winnipeg
42 posted 2002-07-26 09:30 AM


Alll of you! Stop with this idle banter all ready! This is TEEN POETRY, not some chat thread. If you want to argue and complain, then please---take this to The Alley, where this sort of thing is remotely allowed!

Others are too in love with the sound of their own voice to speak the truth...

Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354
Listening to every heart
43 posted 2002-07-26 09:40 AM



Ah, here is your first post.  I agree, the title is the key, or sometimes, the mystery, to the poem/prose/story....

well done, and finally, a belated Welcome to Passions!

Larry C
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 2001-09-10
Posts 10286
United States
44 posted 2002-07-26 11:27 AM


Yup...titling can be a challenge. And a poem is better left alone with no title until the right title comes along. Wecome to Passions.

If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again.

[This message has been edited by Larry C (07-26-2002 11:28 AM).]

clve527
Member
since 2002-07-08
Posts 200

45 posted 2002-07-26 12:27 PM


I have been informed of my "rudeness."  I am not trying to be rude in critiques.  I am truthful, and I see now that truth isn't something that is often displayed here.  I am tired of arguing, and sick of getting backed into corners defending myself.  I don't respond to work that has no potential and if you can't see that then maybe I didn't see the potential I thought I seen.  All I know is that if you encourage critique that is just what you are going to get from me: a critique.

Casey

If all you want is emotion, go down to walmart, buy yourself a diary and hide it in a drawer where no one can see...

Riley
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Senior Member
since 2002-07-18
Posts 1038
in the pouring rain
46 posted 2002-07-26 09:03 PM


Um.....Casey? I have one question in your last post you put, -I don't respond to work that has no potential and if you can't see that then maybe I didn't see the potential I thought I seen.- I think it should be I saw instead of I seen. Just wondering!


~*Riley*~

Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before-Edgar Allen Poe

Kevin
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Senior Member
since 1999-11-02
Posts 729
Torrington, Ct, Usa
47 posted 2002-07-27 12:23 PM


Ok I just caught up with this soap opera and heres my 2 cents...although it seems like theres already a dollar fifty eight in the pot

Casey, you have many good points at times and then you sink to the level of the mob at others, in fact sometimes I think you encourage it

Here on pip, or more importantly in the TEEN forum the community itself is a higher priority than the professionalism of the work

The poems here are to understand othes and to be understood in what lifes like as a teen

thats what keeps people coming back here

If your interested in reading and and helping others to significantly improve their craft, I suggest the critical analysis forum

I would however ask everyone to sort of let this die out, because its taking away from what you all come here to find
...the community

But hey, just my 2 cents

clve527
Member
since 2002-07-08
Posts 200

48 posted 2002-07-27 10:30 AM


Just to inform you, I went to critical analysis.  And saw less potential there, and was not impressed.

Casey

If all you want is emotion, go down to walmart, buy yourself a diary and hide it in a drawer where no one can see...

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669
Michigan, US
49 posted 2002-07-28 06:49 PM


When I was about fourteen, a grizzled old man from the Netherlands moved just down the street from us and rather quickly became something of a neighborhood celebrity. Nate was a carpenter, a furniture maker, but certainly not in the sense we usually see here in the United States. His only tools were powered by mundane elbow grease, consisting of simple chisels and planes and sandpapers so fine you could rub them across a baby's bottom and elicit no more than a giggle. Nate didn't build furniture so much as he sculpted it. Each piece of cherry or walnut he touched became a thing of profound beauty. He was an artist.

Nate had three sons, all older than I was. One eventually went to work in the local cereal factories, and the other two joined the army and became career soldiers. None of the three became carpenters. When I asked them why, each separately gave the same identical answer.

They didn't know how. Their father was a consummate craftsman, an exquisite artisan, but he was also a really lousy teacher. Nate knew every conceivable trick for turning a lump of dried wood into a living, breathing piece of beautiful furniture, but knowing how to do something isn't the same as being able to teach others to do it. Building furniture is one skill. Teaching is a very different skill.

A good teacher has to realize that learning is a journey.

Not everyone on that journey will travel the same paths, and certainly not everyone will march at the same speed. Some will start the journey early, some late, and no two people will ever be at exactly the same point at the same time. Many won't even realize they are on the journey. But they are, because we all are. Those who run breathlessly every step of the way, constantly looking for new hills to climb, new vistas to survey, are on EXACTLY the same journey as those who wander more aimlessly, moving more slowly, seeking things they've yet to even identify.  The beginning of the journey is birth, the end of the journey is death, and even though we may all walk very different paths at moderately different paces, each of us starts in the same place and each of us will finish together.

Personally, I think learning is important. If the purpose of poetry is to communicate, then all of us can learn to write better poetry by learning to better communicate. Emotion is an integral part of poetry, sure, but the communication of that emotion is what really matters. If the only person to ever feel the emotion is the author, then communication has failed.

How do we communicate? By using the many tools that have been given to us by a few thousand years of history. The first of those tools is the one we call words. If you only knew five words, writing poetry would be pretty hard, maybe even impossible. If you learn a hundred words, you increase your ability to effectively communicate. Pretty simple stuff. From words, we move to imagery, pace, meter, sometimes rhyme, and a score of other very useful, very old, tools. Each tool is a legacy left to us by those who have gone before. Each that you snag and hang on your tool belt increases your ability to communicate, and that usually (not always) results in better poetry.

So, yea, I think learning is important. But I long ago realized that not everyone in this world feels the same. And right on the heels of that discovery, I realized you can't force someone to learn until they're ready.

Casey, I've read the three poems you've posted, as well as the comments you've left to others, and you obviously know a little something about poetry. If I may be so bold, you now need to learn a little something about teaching.

An "honest critique" is good, unless it simply becomes a euphemism for lazy teaching. A good teacher needs to understand not only the subject, but also the individual students. Even though we're all on the same journey, none of us are walking the same path. Some are still struggling to find the courage to share, and berating someone for spelling or grammar is less of a help and more of a hindrance. Many are only beginning to love this thing we call writing, and castigating them for doing it less than perfectly does nothing but destroy that burgeoning love affair. Even those eager to learn, eager to climb new mountains, must be encouraged to travel at a pace that keeps them safely on the road and not floundering in a darkened ditch. A good teacher recognizes that no lesson is complete without first understanding the student. Each is necessarily different, with different goals, with different motivations, and a good teacher will use those differences rather than ignore them.

No one in the world can or ever has taught poetry. We teach people about poetry, and if it seems like I'm just playing with words, the distinction is nonetheless an important one to see.

The philosophy in these forums is really pretty simple.

First, we believe that learning has to be fun. That covers a lot of ground, but at its most basic level, that means getting along with each other. People don't have to always agree. But if we remember that we're all on different paths, disagreements can be seen as inevitable. And if we remember we're all going to end up at the same inevitable destination, those disagreements can be seen as the pettiness they really are. We start at the same place, we end at the same place, and all the differences in the middle can't ever erase our commonalties.

Second, we believe that the only way to learn is to do. No one learns to play the piano from lectures, and no one learns to write well without writing. That being the case, the MOST important thing we can do here is encourage people to continue writing. I don't care if you write for publication and fame, for catharsis, for the camaraderie of our community, or for any of the hundred other reasons why people write - as long as you DO write. Keep putting pen to paper and you will get better. It's as inevitable as the sun rising in the East.

Third, and finally, we believe that often the most effective way to teach is through example. Did you ever wonder why we encourage everyone to reply to the poetry of other's? Yes, it helps build a strong community. It builds trust and friendship. But it also insure that everyone is exposed to new ideas, new techniques, new understanding. It's our hope that when someone sees other people taking the time to use a spell checker, they'll realize how much it improves communication. Every time you read and comment on a good poem, you should (and will) learn something new about writing. And even the worst poems should at least show you what to avoid.

It's a pretty simplistic philosophy, but what I've been reading in the Teen Forum for the past four hours seems to suggest that maybe it's working. It's really gratifying to see how many of you have turned on your Critique Flag, an obvious indication that you want to learn. It's even more gratifying, though, to read the very high caliber of poetry generally being posted. I've heard a few Member lament the "old days" of Teen Poetry, but it's clear to me now that their complaints are unwarranted. Teen Poetry is alive and well, and the over-all quality has improved by leaps and bounds.



clve527
Member
since 2002-07-08
Posts 200

50 posted 2002-07-28 08:53 PM


First things first, I am not a teacher.  If I were, then well I would pity my students.  Could I teach, yes I think I could.  But I think the internet is definitely not a very convenient place to do so.  I came here for the simple fact that there was a teen board.  As much as I used to hate the regurgitating of the words "I can relate," I miss being around people that are my age, where I don't feel like the baby.  I came in and gave honest opinions, if only for the simple fact that teaching wouldn't get across.  Think about it, I have gotten so many people to read what I say, it may anger them beyond belief but maybe if they read it again they will realize it wasn't something mean, it was suggestions.  It was my offering of what I believe would make a poem better.  And if nothing else, if they can't take what I am saying maybe they may understand that critiquing isn't what they really want.  
Another member from here told me that he didn't bother with many of the poems here, that he didn't even want to try and express opinions.  That is sad.  An ego is important, but when you have such a fragile ego that you can't accept that having a poem full of misspelling isn't a great thing then that ego needs to be restructured.  Poetry is a craft, one in which I love very much, but just like everyone else I have much to learn.  But the difference between me and many others here is the willingness to learn.  I may get steamed at first when someone says "This is a bad line" or "This has no imagery" but I will sit back before I respond.  And then, in time, I realize that they are right.  I realize that their suggestion is the right way (or sometimes the wrong way) to go.  Not everything I say is absolutely correct, but by golly I am taking my time to do thorough critiques on people that request critiques.  Not many people are willing to do that here, and I think that if poets are willing to do this craft than they should be willing to improve.  I'm not coming in here to make everyone hate poetry, or hate me.  But I do know that if I went in and said "Well this would be better if you use spell check" they wouldn't realize that it isn't a good thing to post work before proof-reading.  But I seem to be made out to be a bad guy by many people here.  I am not being mean, I am being honest though, which is much more than I can say for many.  Telling someone something is great when it isn't will do nothing but halt that poet's ability to learn and grow.  If we are willing to put our sweat and tears into writing, why not set goals of showing the world our writing?  And I can understand if that is not a goal, hence people not requesting critiques.  But critiques can not be categorized as being a "Nice" critique as some have requested.  If you want honesty, then that's what you are going to get.  
Now more on the teaching, if I thought that I would have people read and accept what I was "teaching" then I would do it.  But, honestly, most would roll their eyes.  Plain and simple, a lot of poets only want to be patted on the back.  That isn't a problem, unless they request critiques.  And hopefully my critiques have made some realize they want to be true poets or made others realize that they simply wanted to be patted on the back for their work.

Casey

If all you want is emotion, go down to walmart, buy yourself a diary and hide it in a drawer where no one can see...

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669
Michigan, US
51 posted 2002-07-28 10:26 PM


The problem, Casey, is that you're not just offering critiques. You're extending opinions, at best, and insults, at worst. You don't get to decide who is or isn't a poet. You don't get to define poetry. You're not qualified to do either. Spouting a few simplistic and rigid rules others have given you doesn't give you that right. Not here.

quote:
But the difference between me and many others here is the willingness to learn.


That remains to be seen.

You've been asked on more than one occasion to amend your attitude, and so far you've exhibited very little willingness to learn. Since you appear to like honesty and bluntness (and too often confuse the two), I'll offer a little of both. Cross the line again and you're out of here. No more warnings. No more emails. You'll simply find that your Quest IP no longer works here. If you find another ISP and return, your posts will be deleted. It's as simple as that.

Critiques can be useful, but only if the intent is to help people. To teach. If you want to help others, Casey, and are willing to learn better ways to teach, you will remain welcome here.

Local Parasite
Deputy Moderator 10 Tours
Member Elite
since 2001-11-05
Posts 2527
Transylconia, Winnipeg
52 posted 2002-07-29 01:49 AM


Back to the poem, PLEASE.  Ron, Casey, angry people, if you want to fight, do it in emails, it tends to really clutter up a thread when you banter about that kind of thing.  Some people like their poem to continue recieving feedback, and something like this ruins that.

OK, now for your poem!

First of all, I'm going to nod and nod at Master for his comment about free verse being difficult to do well.  It's not easy to scribble anything onto paper, void of structure, and keep it creative.  A lot of technique must be employed to save it from being a "journal entry."  You had a few saving points, but I think there should have been a bit more added in.  Much of the poem was too literal, and where you strayed from literal bluntness, you replaced it with too weak of an image.  

A lot of strength could be brought to this poem.  Now, it's obviously not entirely a serious poem, rather just a rant by a person who hates titling their work.  I understand completely.  (By the way, "Titling" is a magnificent choice )

There are a few techniques that are subtle, but still come through.  I saw some refined use of line breaks... where you used "the current is too strong," and broke there... I like when a poem does that, completes itself as a statement, and then expands with the next line, "for your limbs to handle."  It does a good job of giving the reader complete thoughts, and then adding them.  Putting the stanza into chunks is one of the most overlooked reasons for using line breaks, and I admire your foresight in this sense.

A piece of advice hit me when reading the second stanza - "Comes" appears twice too close to itself.  You shouldn't keep the same word in two lines that are touching each other.  That's somewhat ill form.

I think it's cute how everyone liked the part about Emily Dickinson.  I didn't really.  I think it's naive of them to make the mental connection -

the stanza mentions Emily Dickinson!  I LOVE Emily Dickinson!  >>  What a great stanza!

Come on you guys, use your heads a little.  

Sure, you're accurate about her.  But I personally never cared for references to other poets in poetry.  It takes away from the independence of the piece, which I find a very important factor.  Just a personal opinion there.

"Like an epiphany on a warm summer day?"  Casey, Casey... a warm summer day... that's too upbeat for the rest of the poem, it doesn't fit in.  This is supposed to be a cynical regard of the difficulty of titling a poem, right?  Now I understand that this epiphany is supposed to be nice, but "a warm summer day" suggests a nice, comfortable place to begin with.  Being stuck for a title isn't what I'd call a "warm summer day."  I'd rather it be something like "like an epiphany on a cold winter day," only more... creatively worded.

The ending?  I don't care how predictable it was, so I disagree with Master.  This is supposed to be a poem that people will be reading and saying "yeah!  Totally!" to.  The ending is appropriate to the poem and suits it well.

I don't know if you're going to work on this again.  Just don't title it like Emily, if you do.  

Parasite

Master
Senior Member
since 1999-08-18
Posts 1867
Boston, MA
53 posted 2002-07-29 02:19 AM


Parasite, personally, I don't care too much for Emily's work.  I just liked that stanza.

And Casey, remember what I said in my email. Although we have our differences, I hope you choose to stay on this board. Remember that just by posting your work for others to read, you're doing a lot to help them with their poetry. Peace

MIdsummerRain
Member
since 2002-05-19
Posts 175
St. Louis, Missouri
54 posted 2002-07-29 03:44 AM


Welcome to Passions; My name is  Rayne ...Dont worry, I don't bite

"...The body of the work comes easily,
then after the editing comes the title,
and regardless of your hopes
to be daring and place “Untitled” above..."


This stanza says much about you & the way that you create your titles; very creative here. You should feel lucky in feeling this way, for me the "body of the work" is as difficult as the title; Enjoyed this

"...First you stare at the first line,
and contemplate being like Emily
(or rather the way she was made)
and make the reader mull over
the first line twice, as if it had
two times more importance
than every other line...."


Ah, Emily Dickenson...she is soooo magical dont you think? Your simplicity here shows you talent in the way you've described her; & although I am a true Emily fan, I could not have said it better myself!

"...Then, against your better judgement,
you delve into the depths of the middle,
hoping that for once, the title will appear
like an epiphany on a warm summer day..."


This is the stanza that stood out the most in my opinion; The imagery you give here (Like an epiphany on a warm summer day) is interesting; you've given me an entirely different perspective on what its like to choose a title

"...So you toss your masterpiece aside,
knowing that some day the title will come
out of some song or movie, but you
will have long lost the poem
under the other crumpled papers
of unfinished creativity..."


As I have said before, I could only dream of having as much confidence as you do with your work; I do not see this stanza as arrogant or egotistical as it may seem, Ive not only read this over & over again, but pondered it, looked deeper into it (which many should have done)  Enjoyed once again

As Acies has said, you've caused some what of a stir in these pages; that is good. I as well admire poets who are strong enough to bear anothers opinion. Many here have been unrefined & crude, as well as rough; This disappoints me greatly. Although it amuses me that administratives & moderators alike never forget their place; I assume that their position allows them to be as honest & blunt as they wish, huh??? Nonetheless, since some here at PIP have taken it upon themselves to decide who here is or isn't a poet, may I say that you have a distinct talent, & that you are truly an amazing writer as well as poet, my friend.
I would appreciate it greatly if you would find time for my poetry; I would love to hear what you have to say.

With Admiration
~Rayne




One day Men will look back & say
that I gave birth to the 20th Century
            
             Jack the Ripper ~1888


[This message has been edited by MIdsummerRain (07-29-2002 03:50 AM).]

clve527
Member
since 2002-07-08
Posts 200

55 posted 2002-07-30 08:11 PM


Thank you for the critiques, I appreciate them.

Casey

If all you want is emotion, go down to walmart, buy yourself a diary and hide it in a drawer where no one can see...

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