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allan
Senior Member
since 2000-04-09
Posts 620
On the road

0 posted 2003-03-20 01:48 AM


here it comes
the black hawks hover
silence surrounds us
a dark cloud slowly
crosses the sand

soon will come thunder
that strips flesh from bone
soon will come lightning
to sear the eye
to scorch the skin

a child stands
transfixed
wide eyed
in shining walls of pain

see the peacock fan
of blood
spurt from her
severed head

here it comes
keep your hand
from your mouth
it is too late

let us see your vomit flow
empty your stomachs
and stare

WAR

is here

© Copyright 2003 Allan Tierney - All Rights Reserved
allan
Senior Member
since 2000-04-09
Posts 620
On the road
1 posted 2003-03-20 01:49 AM


The bastards have begun their bloody slaughter.

[This message has been edited by allan (03-20-2003 01:49 AM).]

Wesley the Blue
Member
since 1999-09-02
Posts 426
Forest Lake, MN, USA
2 posted 2003-03-20 03:27 AM


And what a bloody slaughter it is <-sarcasm

So far we have targeted only the leaders of the Iraqi regeime.  Sounds like an all out slaughter of innocent children to me....

passing shadows
Member Empyrean
since 1999-08-26
Posts 45577
displaced
3 posted 2003-03-20 05:50 AM


yea allan, it looks like all your words did absolutely nothing, so why don't you shut up now and stop trying to speak for other people?

I, for one, am not vomiting, not feeling sick in the least...I know what we are and what we will do...having been forced into this position now...we will overcome!  

And I'M PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN!

passing shadows
Member Empyrean
since 1999-08-26
Posts 45577
displaced
4 posted 2003-03-20 05:57 AM


I don't understand why you keep plucking away at the scene of the children being killed...America is not killing innocent children. You just want people to see things the way you see them, all the bad, none of the good.

check out UNICEF (USA) and see what is being done for those children, why don't ya?
http://www.unicefusa.org/

allan
Senior Member
since 2000-04-09
Posts 620
On the road
5 posted 2003-03-20 06:51 AM


This is only the beginning...

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/
Stop the War Coalition

[This message has been edited by allan (03-20-2003 07:31 AM).]

allan
Senior Member
since 2000-04-09
Posts 620
On the road
6 posted 2003-03-20 06:53 AM


Make your points and I will make mine. 'nuff said.
allan
Senior Member
since 2000-04-09
Posts 620
On the road
7 posted 2003-03-20 07:06 AM


A link regarding the deaths of Iraqi children at the hands of the United States:

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/feb2003/nf2003026_0167_db052.htm
Business Week Online: Toting the Casualties of War (39,612 women, and 32,195 children)

[Copyrighted material removed - Please post links or your own words. If you don't own it, don't post it. - Ron]


[This message has been edited by Ron (03-21-2003 11:33 AM).]

allan
Senior Member
since 2000-04-09
Posts 620
On the road
8 posted 2003-03-20 07:15 AM


More links on the killing of civilians in Iraq:

http://peace.mennolink.org/articles/iraqlegacy.html
394 Iraqi women and children killed

http://www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/VISIE/iraq.html
Iraq children killed by radioactive depleted uranium particles. Extreme deformities in Iraqi children.

http://202.84.17.11/english/htm/20010129/334985.htm
4 Iraqi Children Killed by Gulf War Cluster Bomb

http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/08/15/34560.html
Iraqi claims US committed Environmental Crimes ("thousands of deaths among children and elderly people")

allan
Senior Member
since 2000-04-09
Posts 620
On the road
9 posted 2003-03-20 07:20 AM


This is only the beginning. The ugly and illegal ambitions of a few men have only just begun to take their toll of lives.

[Copyrighted material removed - Please post links or your own words. If you don't own it, don't post it. - Ron]

[This message has been edited by Ron (03-21-2003 11:33 AM).]

TexUS
Member
since 2003-03-20
Posts 228

10 posted 2003-03-20 01:12 PM



http://hrw.org/reports/world/iraq-pubs.php

“In 1991 Saddam killed 500,000 people when they rose against him. Nobody demonstrated against him then. But now the United States wants to get rid of the dictator, people are demonstrating against it.”

-one of the Iraqi liberation soldiers

[This message has been edited by Ron (03-21-2003 11:37 AM).]

TexUS
Member
since 2003-03-20
Posts 228

11 posted 2003-03-20 01:25 PM


Government Betrays Children's Welfare

[Copyrighted material removed - Please post links or your own words. If you don't own it, don't post it. - Ron]

[This message has been edited by Ron (03-21-2003 11:35 AM).]

TexUS
Member
since 2003-03-20
Posts 228

12 posted 2003-03-20 01:31 PM


MP backs war after meeting victims of Saddam's torture
By Greg Hurst

[Copyrighted material removed - Please post links or your own words. If you don't own it, don't post it. - Ron]

[This message has been edited by Ron (03-21-2003 11:36 AM).]

allan
Senior Member
since 2000-04-09
Posts 620
On the road
13 posted 2003-03-20 05:40 PM


There is no question that Saddam Hussein is an obnoxious tyrant with the blood of many people on his hands. The people of Iraq would no doubt survive much better under another leader. This cannot be totally guarenteed however because there are few examples of clean-handed leaders round about him.

Are the US and UK governments right in taking thir present action - THAT is what the subject is that I am looking at. Naturally TexUS you are welcome to talk on another subject as well. The part of the post on Ann Clywd does bear on this and is proof that people CAN be convinced of the rightness of the case for war and the rightness presumably of a certain amount of civilian death in order to achieve a free Iraq.

The Western powers don't have totally clean hands on this matter I think you will agree. As early as the late Fifties the US through the CIA was apparently grooming and helping Saddam. According to his biographer (who is no apologist for Saddam) the CIA helped pinpoint the members of the then left-leaning government that Saddam should eliminate. Later Saddam was given great assistance in the war against Iran. Western spokesmen like to mention that Saddam killed many Iranians but ALWAYS fail to add "with our help".

Bush and Blair had a choice. After 9-11 virtually the whole world wanted to support the fight to rid the globe of the terrorist threat. George W. Bush totally threw away almost ALL of this good will and willingness to support. How? By resorting to the same tactics that have ALWAYS scared the rest of the world. Arrogance and Threat.

Bush and the hawks who gained ascendancy through Bush's toe-hold on power and by the silence of wiser voices (who rightly believed they would be deemed unpatriotic if they didn't join in the jingoism) clearly had plans from long ago to effect regime change. The UN was a smoke-screen of respecibility that went badly wrong. The inspectors wouldn't play along and no amount of forged documents and bad intelligence helped matters. In the end the inpectors only wanted a month or two to finalise their work. At that point if they came to the conclusion that iraq had NOT disarmed virtually the whole world would have joined as one to take his regime apart. We would have been united. Instead the hawks made war. Was there too much danger that the inspectors would say Iraq WAS virtually disarmed. I suspect this was the fear.

As things stand the world watches is fear as their worst nightmares of the stereotypical arrogant American hawk attitudes are paraded daily on the televisions. Rumsfeld in particular is inept. But there is almost no attempt to even conceal the hawk attitudes of these people even though they must know that the world has despised such barbaric attitudes and redneck ignorance for so MANY years.

It is no accident of history that at least half the populations and mostly much more of most of the countries in the world are against this war. this is not a mere whim. There are very real and very strong reasons for this. If you merely attack this as something that just shouldn't be you will totally fail to understand.

No amount of berating those who passionately believe Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush and Blair are utterly wrong, will help matters.

Apart from anything else we see that more mass deaths in iraq, particularly of the children, either by cruise missile, cluster bomb or later by undepleted uranium, starvation or sickness will be brought about more for internal reasons within the US. And particularly within the psychological make up of the neo-fascist hawks. This we find utterly disgusting and reprehensible and we cannot stand by and see this injustice done. we also will not stand by and watch bigoted and violent militaristic redneck values overrun our planet. We cannot bear the thought of ourselves and our children living under such ignorant and narrow minded men.

[This message has been edited by allan (03-20-2003 07:30 PM).]

allan
Senior Member
since 2000-04-09
Posts 620
On the road
14 posted 2003-03-20 07:31 PM


The position was that Blix and the inspectors were still pressing Iraq to provide better documentation on the WMD. It had not been proven one way or another. Naturally Blix did not easily accept that these had been destroyed. Even with the knowledge that unlike us in the more methodical West the Iraqis perhaps don't have such a slavish devotion to record keeping. And in a post war situation detailed records are even more unlikely to be kept.

The example of South Africa has been used where everything went smoothly and disarmament happened quickly. We had not just fought a war with South Africa however.

NO politician will EVER speak the complete truth and it shouldn't come as any surprise that Saddam would seek to hide weapons. I can imagine what would have happened if the US had demanded the old USSR should disarm or they would attack them. But then the USSR was sufficiently strong. America and the West like to choose weak targets only. We can understand that this is expedient politically but it is a lot to ask of us to see it as a MORAL crusade.

America through the CIA seems to have been aiding and abetting Saddam since the dying days of the Fifties. They seem to have helped Saddam because they wanted rid of the then left-leaning government that was in power in Iraq. Saddam was "their man" from what I have heard and was groomed by them for power. They sold him the arms that allowed him to slaughter the thousands of Iranians that the West says was so terrible. This was PRECISELY the purpose the US and others were selling the arms to Saddam.

The hypocrisy levels in this question reek to high heaven. The US is standing like some shining moral knight in virginal white. For those who have followed American foreign policy for the past five decades this is a bit rich to say the least. What is happening now could have happened several times in the past under various Republican administrations and did to some degree. What makes now SO dangerous is the fact of 9-11. This has given a veneer of moral sanction to violent and aggressive foreign policy. It didn't have this before and this is why it was quite rightly repudiated before. But this administration are actively and cynically USING the grief and fear of America over 9-11 for their own neo-fascist purposes and THAT is what is frightening the world half to death right now. It is no whim on our part. No slight disagreement. No tremor of vague nervousness. We SEE what this administration is and we see it because it seems almost incapable of HIDING what it is. And we see they totally believe they are going to get away with this. we see the British government actually supporting and aiding the hawks in their agenda.

While the wise and decent heads of America had to keep their mouths firmly closed due to the risk of being howled down as weak, unpatriotic or unamerican the hawks have grabbed this opportunity with both hands. they will imprison us all in a tightly controlled "moral" world of their choosing where they attack with psychological or physical violence anyone who steps out of line. They MUST be stood up to and faced down. They simply MUST be for the remotest possibility of a decent future.


passing shadows
Member Empyrean
since 1999-08-26
Posts 45577
displaced
15 posted 2003-03-21 05:06 AM


allan,

it's pretty sad that your country blames our president for this war and the bloodshed when the people of Iraq blame their own president and see America as the rescuers, the country that will free them, the country that is fighting for them!

They do not blame Americans. They blame their own president for their lost lives.

Do you realize the great risks and great extent that America is going to for this? Do you realize the sacrifices being made? No one wants to kill anyone, no one wants war.

The only thing that makes me more sad than the loss of innocent life and the economic toll that we will have to suffer is people like you who are going up against the most powerful nation in the world, the land in which I live and am proud to support.  

And with that, since you are what you call Christian and so good at demeaning other people who are Christians, I ask one question...who the hell are you to judge?




[This message has been edited by passing shadows (03-21-2003 05:10 AM).]

allan
Senior Member
since 2000-04-09
Posts 620
On the road
16 posted 2003-03-21 02:19 PM


passing Shadows, it is no accident that no matter what the US military does anywhere in the world the US administration says that they are doing a wonderful and selfless job. Do you really swallow this propaganda whole?

half an hour ago we watched a report here of Iraqi civilians taking any kind of transport across the border from Jordan into Iraqi to go and fight and probably die fighting against the US invader. These were people young and old, Iraqi patriots who may well hate Saddam, this wasn't made clear, but what WAS clear is their hatred of the US invaders who are not welcome in their country. You have been believing Rumsfeld's propaganda. Don't you realise yet that that is what it is?

passing shadows
Member Empyrean
since 1999-08-26
Posts 45577
displaced
17 posted 2003-03-21 04:15 PM


I suppose, then, that patriotism is a worldwide phenomenon, not just occuring in America.
Crazy Eddie
Member
since 2002-09-14
Posts 178

18 posted 2003-03-21 04:25 PM



In the words of Robert Zimmerman:

quote:
Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings


I think it hurts both sides of the argument but I believe it none the less.

Ringo
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Member Elite
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684
Saluting with misty eyes
19 posted 2003-03-22 02:15 AM


Allan,
I am one of the biggest advocators of free speech that you will ever in your life meet, and I try to give everyone their side of the story. There are others on the site that I have disagreements with, however, they are given free reign to speak as they will because they speak their opinions respectfully and with honor. You, my Brother, are the most arrogant,hateful, mis-informed, non-integrous, piece of work that the Good Lord has ever seen fit to grace this website with.
You have taken a site that is supposed to be about the love of words, and the sharing of ideas and emotions, and turned it into your own personal forum to spew your hatred and inane thoughts. There are a few people on this website that feel this war is the wrong thing to have happen. The first one that comes to mind is Mistletoe Angel (sorry, Noah). I wrote something on the open forums supporting the actions that are being taken by my country, and he disagreed with me in a peaceful manner. I have nothing but respect for him and his opinions. I do not expect that everyone will share the same thoughts and ideas, and I don't want them to. I would just ask that they do it with respect and honor for the thoughts of others.
Oh, I apologize, there are probably a few things that you should know about me before I get too far into this, that might help you to understand a few things...
I am a Marine combat vet from 2 different hostile actions and I have seen the heat that you are vilifying. I spent a bit of time in Panama for Operation Just Cause, (where I received a Purple Heart for my troubles) and then- because my heart was pure- my President saw fit to send meto play in the Sand Box for a few months. While you were in College, or doing whatever it was you were doing to stay out of harms way during those 2 periods in American history, I saw first hand all of the atrocities that you are claiming, and I can tell you that it sure as Hell wasn't the Americans that were perpetrating them. It didn't happen then, and it didn't happen now. For you to say anything of the kind is to bring discredit to yourself and to the cause for which you so strongly believe. It makes you another cog in the Iraqi propaganda machine. (BTW, you don't happen to know Jane Fonda, or Sean Penn, do you?)
Before you go around spreading lies and half-truths, get the entire picture. Before you reduce yourself to name calling and demonizing, do yourself a favor and spend just one hour in the shoes of the men and women that gave you the right to sit here and spread the horse manure that is issuing from your pie hole. It damned sure wasn't your ultra-liberal American hating newspapers that gave you the freedom of the press,and it wasn't the great orators of the world that gave you the freedom of speech. Those freedoms, my friend, were given to you by the same men and women you are accusing of intentionally killing and maiming women and children. And we didn't give you those rights by talking things over with the same people that you are defending. We did it by bleeding and in many cases dying so that you could look down your nose at us, and feel so sanctimonious because you were able to scam your way into staying safe, and not getting your hands dirty.
You can reply to this, or not... I couldn't care not the tiniest of bit. I shall not even be checking here again. Just do me a favor... Don't infect the rest of the site... stay on this forum.
BTW... It's America with a C and not a K... To many great men, including my father, gave of themselves to hold back the red tide that you glorify by spelling it that way.

~You might say I'm a Dreamer, but I'm not the only one...
John Lennon

Crazy Eddie
Member
since 2002-09-14
Posts 178

20 posted 2003-03-22 07:06 AM



Ringo,

I understand you have stated that you won’t be back to read any replies but just in case   I have to ask, how can you say this:
quote:
You, my Brother, are the most arrogant,hateful, mis-informed, non-integrous, piece of work that the Good Lord has ever seen fit to grace this website with.

And this:
quote:
Before you reduce yourself to name calling and demonizing

In the same post without coming across as being ever so slightly hypocritical?

Jason Lyle
Senior Member
since 2003-02-07
Posts 1438
With my darkling
21 posted 2003-03-27 11:15 AM


Allan, After reading many of your post, I would like to answer a question I have seen you ask in several of them "Is this how we can expect Americans to act now?" Yes.This is what you can expect from us now.If any country feels like it can threaten or attack us, or support those that do, they will be dismantled and broken.You complain often about American arrogance, and unilateral action.Get used to that also.We would expect support from our European allies, but we do not require it.Does this sound like hegemon to you? Only if it is forced.Make no mistakes, If peace and security can not be found peacefully, then we will have peace through superior firepower.Will innocents die? Yes, and they already have.Put your blame where it belongs, on the tyrants whom forced our hand.But back to the point, yes, you can continue to expect this kind of reaction.
Jason

KristieSue
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since 2003-01-31
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PA, US
22 posted 2003-03-27 07:26 PM


he'll correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure, but I believe this is where he was coming from...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Before you go around spreading lies and half-truths, get the entire picture. Before you reduce yourself to name calling and demonizing, do yourself a favor and spend just one hour in the shoes of the men and women that gave you the right to sit here
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

he has done just that...he has gotten the big picture and has been in their shoes.

Just letting you know....

Failure isn't failure if a lesson from it is learned ~ KS

Crazy Eddie
Member
since 2002-09-14
Posts 178

23 posted 2003-03-27 08:47 PM



I think I understand, what you’re trying to say is that because he was a soldier he can call people names:

quote:
You, my Brother, are the most arrogant,hateful, mis-informed, non-integrous, piece of work that the Good Lord has ever seen fit to grace this website with


While anyone who wasn’t a soldier can’t.

You’ll have to excuse my ignorance but is there any chance you could explain why anyone would believe that?

Ringo
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Saluting with misty eyes
24 posted 2003-03-27 10:21 PM


When Kristie told me about the posting that she made, and your reply, Eddie, I knew I had to come back here and straighten things out. I started this part of the argument, and hopefully, I can end it...
While I feel that I have every right to make the point that I did, I do not have the right to do it exactly as I did, if that makes any sense. When I get my temper flaring beyond control I haev a tendancy to say exactly what's on my mind without censoring it. I should haev taken that extra cup of coffee to formulate, rather than writing from the hip and submitting first draft.
The point I was trying to make was that ANYONE, not just this individual, who feels he or she has something to say should first, get ALL of the facts from both sides, and not just the one that he agrees with, and figure out exactly what it is that he believes on the issue at hand. Then and only then can an informed statement be made. Secondly, before you go around vilifying me, or mine, stand with me and talk to me.. walk that proverbial mile in my shoes, and see why it is that I act the way I do, and say what it is I say. Only then, can you truly state that I am doing wrong.
This particular individual was making inflamitory statments about the President, and the Marines, Sailors, and Soldiers that are over there, and I can guarantee that he has never once even condescended to talk to one of them. Not once did he look inside their eyes to see them as they are. He chose to join the likes of Jane Fonda and Sean Penn, who vilified their country and her fighting men and women because of ONE piee of propaganda that was presented to them.
I will not now, nor will I ever apologize for what it is that I said. I will only admit that there could have been a better way for me to have said it.
I hope that settles this string for once and for all.

Imagine all the People living life in peace...
John Lennon

Crazy Eddie
Member
since 2002-09-14
Posts 178

25 posted 2003-03-28 02:01 PM



Ringo,

It wasn’t such a big deal really, I saw the irony in what you’d written and then ran with it, once under a head of steam I tend to turn into a pedantic idiot. No offence was meant and I hope none was taken.

KristieSue
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since 2003-01-31
Posts 1460
PA, US
26 posted 2003-03-28 03:26 PM


oops...and to answer your question Eddie...no I dont' feel Ringo had the right to call names (and, ask him, I told him that).  I was only trying to say that he has the right to be upset...

but I'm going to shut up now LOLOL

Sorry for the misunderstanding!!!

Failure isn't failure if a lesson from it is learned ~ KS

Ringo
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
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Saluting with misty eyes
27 posted 2003-03-28 04:07 PM


None taken for a man speaking his mind respectfully... That is if you buy me a beer later lol JUST KIDDING!!!!

Imagine all the People living life in peace...
John Lennon

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