navwin » Main Forums » English Workshop » United Stative instead of "American"
English Workshop
Post A Reply Post New Topic United Stative instead of "American" Go to Previous / Newer Topic Back to Topic List Go to Next / Older Topic
Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada

0 posted 2008-10-23 02:02 PM


I would like to introduce and encourage people to use a new adjective for the United States and for referring to the people of the United States:


United Stative
United Statives

America is not the country.  It is the continent: United States (the country) of America (The Americas considered as a whole).  

Therefore, United Stative is a more legitimate adjective for the country, reserving "American" properly as an adjective for the continent and all people of the Americas, not just those of the United States.


© Copyright 2008 Essorant - All Rights Reserved
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA
1 posted 2008-10-23 02:40 PM


Not going to happen, sir. American typically refers to the citizens of United States, even if it is not geographically exact. The rest of the world treats the word as meaning United States citizens.

I can understand your assertion that America is not only a country but it is so accepted in world-wide thought and it's not going to change. Is it something you only find curious or does it bother you in some way?

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

2 posted 2008-10-23 03:07 PM


I do not mean to speak for Essorant, but I might point out that Ess has a proclivity for exactness that would explain his motivation.

I mean, isn't Mexican American redundant?


Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669
Michigan, US
3 posted 2008-10-23 03:07 PM


quote:
America is not the country.  It is the continent ...


Your logic is flawed, Ess. There are seven continents, none of which are called America. You might have had a leg to stand on had the prepositional phrase been "of North America." You might even have been able to press your point if you lived in Canada of America. As is, however, you could just as easily argue that Johnson's name is really just John, with son being descriptive rather than proscriptive. It won't fly, though, because there is a very long history of names being derived from descriptions.


serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

4 posted 2008-10-23 04:16 PM


I think that however flawed the argument was presented, it's not without a point.

When someone is described as "European", I think most people I know would ask, "So what part of Europe are you from?"

Whereas, because of common parlance, if one announces that they are American, it's pretty much assumed they live in the United States.

And I think you guys are on the same side, btw.

Both of you fight the good fight to keep the common parlance clean.


Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
5 posted 2008-10-23 04:43 PM


Balladeer

Yes it does bother me as being a misnomer, because it would be like people using the word European specifically to mean "French" instead of "European".  It may be popular, but that does not mean I won't avoid it and encourage others to avoid it. United Stative is a good alternative to such a popular misnomer.

Ron,

If you look at how the word continent was originally used more loosely you will see how the whole new world was seen as one "America", the "America", the continent, that is referred to in the name of your country.  It was not pluralized as "Americas" and it is still not always pluralized even today when they are considered together as a whole.

"The word continent

From the 1500s the English noun continent was derived from the term continent land, meaning continuous or connected land[43] and translated from the Latin terra continens.[44] The noun was used to mean "a connected or continuous tract of land" or mainland.[43] It was not applied only to very large areas of land — in the 1600s, references were made to the continents (or mainlands) of Kent, Ireland and Wales and in 1745 to Sumatra.[43] The word continent was used in translating Greek and Latin writings about the three "parts" of the world, although in the original languages no word of exactly the same meaning as continent was used.[45]

While continent was used on the one hand for relatively small areas of continuous land, on the other hand geographers again raised Herodotus’s query about why a single large landmass should be divided into separate continents. In the mid 1600s Peter Heylin wrote in his Cosmographie that "A Continent is a great quantity of Land, not separated by any Sea from the rest of the World, as the whole Continent of Europe, Asia, Africa." In 1727 Ephraim Chambers wrote in his Cyclopædia, "The world is ordinarily divided into two grand continents: the old and the new." And in his 1752 atlas, Emanuel Bowen defined a continent as "a large space of dry land comprehending many countries all joined together, without any separation by water. Thus Europe, Asia, and Africa is one great continent, as America is another."[46] However, the old idea of Europe, Asia and Africa as "parts" of the world ultimately persisted with these being regarded as separate continents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continents
 


Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669
Michigan, US
6 posted 2008-10-23 05:19 PM


quote:
Yes it does bother me as being a misnomer, because it would be like people using the word European specifically to mean "French" instead of "European".

Which might be appropriate if the name of the country had been France of Europe for a few hundred years.

Again, Essorant, United States of America is not a description. It's a name. Just like Johnson.

quote:
When someone is described as "European", I think most people I know would ask, "So what part of Europe are you from?"

Absolutely, Karen. And if someone is described as American most people would ask, "So, what part of America are you from?"

quote:
If you look at how the word continent was originally used more loosely ...

LOL. Oh, well, if we're going to start using words more loosely then . . .

Most of my European friends call us Murcans. Affectionately so, I'm sure.



serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

7 posted 2008-10-23 05:32 PM


Wow.

I think that same pronunciation is used by Merlanders.

*chuckle*

and oh.

came back to add, many people ask if I'm from da Bronx or Brooklynn.

Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
8 posted 2008-10-23 05:43 PM


Whether on its own or in the name of your country, America still properly means America as a whole, not just United States.  You United Statives also use America on its own to mean "The United States of America" instead of "America, or Americas".  But if we persist with that, the name of your country is the likeness of calling it "The United States of the United States of America"!


[This message has been edited by Essorant (10-23-2008 07:11 PM).]

Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
9 posted 2008-10-23 07:11 PM



I quite like Gondwanalandish - it has a bit of history to it.


Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA
10 posted 2008-10-23 10:50 PM


It may be popular, but that does not mean I won't avoid it and encourage others to avoid it.

Go for it, essorant! I wish you the best. When you're finished, you can work on the British-English thingie


Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
11 posted 2008-10-23 11:30 PM


Thanks Balladeer

The British/English thing simple as well, that is, if you use the words properly.  

Who lives in Britain is British.  Who lives there in England is also English.  There is not much more to it than that.


Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA
12 posted 2008-10-23 11:56 PM


Aha, I see. So Irish people are British...or are they Irish...or should they be called Irish Brits?

If I ask an Irishman if he's British, will he say yes or will he say he's Irish? If I ask an Englishman if he is British like an Irishman will he say sure?

What's simple for some is not always so simple for others.

I know that, in World War II, when the Allies said "the Americans are coming!", they weren't referring to Pancho Villa or the RCAF. When immigrants speak of coming to America, they're not talking about Mexico city or Vancouver. That's just the way it is.

You have a life-long mission in front of you, sir. Good luck  


Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
13 posted 2008-10-24 12:42 PM


Balladeer,

It is still simple.  The Irish part (people and land) that is part of Britain is British as well.  And all being in or of Ireland, they are Irish whether or not they are British.  What is complex about that, unless you mix them up and use the words incorrectly?

An English will say he is also British (if he uses the word properly) because England is part of Britain, and therefore partakes in being British as well, just as Canada is part of the continent(s) of America and therefore partakes in being American.

  

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA
14 posted 2008-10-24 12:51 PM


Aha...I see the geographical accuracy of you statement, sir, but my question is this - will the Irishman call himself British or Irish and will the canadian call himself American or Canadian....even though, thoretically, they are?
Mysteria
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Laureate
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328
British Columbia, Canada
15 posted 2008-10-24 01:10 AM


If it means I don't pay 14% tax, you bet your bippy I will say I am from Canada of America.  I wonder, would that make me an Americanuck?
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA
16 posted 2008-10-24 01:37 AM


Well, that beats Canuckican!
Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
17 posted 2008-10-25 02:56 AM


Balladeer

I don't know.  It depends on the context that they are speaking and how properly they use the words.

Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA
18 posted 2008-10-25 09:20 AM


I like "AmeriCanuk" - It's stylish!..
critical mass
Member
since 2009-03-25
Posts 275
Michigan
19 posted 2009-03-26 10:05 PM


There are a lot of people who would be offended by changing the name. If the name doesn't sound good to you, start your own country. I hear there's plenty of land available near Chernobyl. No disrespect intended. It's just a matter of history and pride.
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618
Statesboro, GA, USA
20 posted 2009-03-26 11:31 PM


To me, "United Stative" just falls flat on the ear; It doesn't have enough 'old world' in it, even for the 'new world'.  For sheer aesthetics I'm gonna stick with American.

Stephen

Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
21 posted 2009-04-18 04:34 AM


That is because your ear is so used to "American".  

It is similar to "It is me" compared to "it is I".  "It is me" has incorrect grammar, but may sound "better" to peoples' ears because they hear it more often.



Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA
22 posted 2009-04-18 11:34 AM


Don't worry. We'll be changing it to the USSA before too long.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
23 posted 2009-04-18 12:24 PM



You should take off your blindfold Balladeer.  

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA
24 posted 2009-04-18 01:01 PM


Why? It's customary to wear one during an execution.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
25 posted 2009-04-19 01:22 AM


But it is not healthy to use one for hiding behind from the truth and nursing pessimistic exaggerations about your president or your country.


Bob K
Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208

26 posted 2009-04-19 05:13 AM




     Essorant is voicing a gripe that I've heard voiced by Canadians for a very long time.  They have a lot of gripes like this about us US-icans, and their various suggestions are frequently as sensible to their ears and as Bizarre to American ears as Essorant's are.  I must say, Essorant makes complete sense here and seems completely wrong headed as only a man who is governed by complete faith in logic can sometimes be.  I am thrilled and delighted  to hear his suggestion.

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA
27 posted 2009-04-19 08:55 AM


When you say as bizarre to American ears, Bob, are you referring to Mexican ears, also?
Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
28 posted 2009-04-20 11:42 AM


quote:
Essorant is voicing a gripe that I've heard voiced by Canadians for a very long time


For the most part I find Canadians use the word just as recklessly as United Statives.
 

jwesley
Member Rara Avis
since 2000-04-30
Posts 7563
Spring, Texas
29 posted 2010-07-29 08:27 PM


Balldeer for Pres!
Bob K
Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208

30 posted 2010-07-31 01:58 AM




  

     I tend toward the possible use of "Canadiative", myself, for speaking of those from Canada.  It gets across the clear notion of "Canada" and "native residents" at the same time, in the same way that "United Stative" gets across the notion that we, here, in the more central reaches of the North American Continent, are both United and are stating something.  This is something that I find it important to do, to state something, and having "Stative" as part of my national identity might help.

     Mostly I find myself, these days, in a "Stative" confusion, for example.  It's good to remember this, when Mike asks me about Mexicans in the middle of a discussion about Canadians.  Then I can see Essorant's point.

     Exactly what we might be stating evades me at the moment, as it so often does.

     But then "Stative" and equally odd "Canadiative" are both neologisms that seem easy to explain and hard to justify.  These are yet  two more qualities that Essorant's and my suggestions share.  Brother nations, marching forward together, hurrah!

     More accurate these days might be to call us collectively The Disjunctive States of America; and we might all claim membership, Canadians and us neighbors to the south together, as well as our most southern Norte Americano members in Mexico, Disjunctive and disunited all in cordial disrespect, conjoined by geography.

JerryPat
Senior Member
since 2010-10-30
Posts 1991
Louisiana/America
31 posted 2010-12-31 08:55 PM


Drat.

To mimic is a form of praise unless
you have no thoughts of your own

Bluesy Socrateaser
Member Elite
since 2002-11-07
Posts 2417
In The Mirror
32 posted 2016-11-30 09:30 PM


RIP Balladeer, but me? Just call me Max Stout and when I cross my threshold I feel earth beneath my feet. I leave others to slap a label on it while secretly calling it my own.


BTS

...just bein' Bluesy

Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354
Listening to every heart
33 posted 2016-12-01 06:57 PM


Just now, reading this post.

I find it extremely refreshing to find a valid conversation that stayed on track, polite, never condescending, and respectful. I've been away too long.

Rex Allen McCoy
Member Elite
since 2000-01-30
Posts 2863
Sippin a Timmy's in London
34 posted 2016-12-19 12:57 PM


I don't lose any sleep over being called a Canadian instead of an American. The rest of the world knows who we are. Why confuse them... Let it alone  
Post A Reply Post New Topic ⇧ top of page ⇧ Go to Previous / Newer Topic Back to Topic List Go to Next / Older Topic
All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format.
navwin » Main Forums » English Workshop » United Stative instead of "American"

Passions in Poetry | pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums | 100 Best Poems

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary