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Rap=Poetry?
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Rap=Poetry? |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
Does rap(i.e. the composition of artist like Run DMC, Vanilla Ice, Tupac Shakur, Snoop, Dr. Dre, and Eminem) = poetry. Remember the Webster definition. Main Entry: po·et·ry Pronunciation: 'pO-&-trE, -i-trE also 'po(-)i-trE Function: noun 1 a : metrical writing : VERSE b : the productions of a poet : POEMS 2 : writing that formulates a concentrated imaginative awareness of experience in language chosen and arranged to create a specific emotional response through meaning, sound, and rhythm 3 a : something likened to poetry especially in beauty of expression b : poetic quality or aspect CS |
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Marge Tindal 
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
I'm thinking that you asked a question that only has one answer ... of course !!! |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Yes, even though rap is a very coarse kind of poetry, it often has more poetic elements than much of the freeverse coming out today. If I were to rank all three according to their strength as being poetry and retaining the attributes of English poetry, I would rank them thus: 1. Traditional Poetry 2. Rap 3. Freeverse |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
I'm debating on whether or not to be offended that free verse is coming in below rap... Frost would roll over in his grave!  |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
Ess Your dry sense of humor kills me.  CS |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
I think rap is poetry. I think some rap(from certain artist) is equivalent to some of the greatest poetry ever written. Unfortunately rap to day is filled with posturing and so is kind of boring. Another change in rap is they change words to force them to rhyme, which again if done wrong hurts it. Another part about rap is allot of artist fill there music with cacophonies and in turn make the music harsher. This is probably many are turned off to rap. -Juju |
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pharon Member
since 1999-11-13
Posts 251alabama |
"2 : writing that formulates a concentrated imaginative awareness of experience in language chosen and arranged to create a specific emotional response through meaning, sound, and rhythm" that pretty much sums it all up. |
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unholyjudgement Member
since 2007-02-27
Posts 116Wherever my soul takes me next |
i think the words of rap are poetic however it is easly lost with the added elements |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
By "added elements" do you mean the lifestyle associated with the Hip Hop nature, or the music, or what? CS |
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djemboy2 New Member
since 2007-03-27
Posts 2Florida USA |
Hi Literally just joined and saw this post, and thought i would give my two cents,(Altho i would like a receipt please,you know what the irs is like), I had this very same discussion in a drum circle i was a member of, and we came to the conclusion that if it rhymes and has a rhythmic flow to it then rap is poetry, the moment it stops rhyming then it becomes spoken word, also, not sure if its true but apparently RAP is an acronym for rhythm and poetry, at the end of the day even song lyrics if you take the music away from the equasion is nothing more than poetry, and some poetry if you put music to can become song lyrics, just my thoughts on the subject. Michael |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
quote: Unlike Chris, I'm not debating whether I should be offended or not; I just am.  quote: Have you ever seen this quote Ess? I happen to love it. And speaking of Robert Frost: quote: And quote: I don't see anything about rhyming or set structure in his definitions of what a poem is. I find it very disheartening that people like yourself try to pin conditions on writing, a supposedly free and unrestrictive form of expression. It is very pretentious. It says, "If it is not done my way, it is inferior and it is of poor quality." It says something interesting about the speaker. The ocean has many species of marine life, Essorant. The literary world has more than one good way to skin a cat. Every poet has a preferred style, to each his own. So why take so much effort in defaming the other styles that you obviously don't understand? I'm just curious... Have a good one. “Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.” |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
The Story of the Three Little Pigs Read carefully the parts about the pigs and their houses. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
Wow, that's your response to my lengthy reply? Come on man. And don't you think the three little pigs reference is a little haughty (to put it nicely)? You're saying that your style is brick huh? That goes along the lines of what I was saying when I said: quote: You just backed up what I already said. And again, all you can put forward is your own skewed opinion. Saying traditional verse is better than freeverse is just an opinion, and a rather biased one at that. I’m not going to go into how it’s about the skill of the writer and not the style, my fingers are out of breath. “Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.” |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
It seems you already forget the "What is Poetry? thread. Why should I go thro the labour of trying to show you the background and basis for my judgement all over again, when no matter how much argument, evidence, toil, I will put into it, in the end all you will do is shrug it off again, and flippantly say "it is just an opinion"? |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
quote: Ess, you are very closed-minded and set in your ways. Saying that a Ford is better than a Chevy is just an opinion. Saying that one style of writing is better than another is just an opinion. And you've seemed to have forgotten what was said in the What is Poetry thread; or rather just ignored it. I've never really tried to convince you that freeverse is better; because as a style it is not better or worse. It is ABOUT THE SKILL OF THE WRITER! A crappy poem written by a traditionalist is still a crappy poem Ess! It doesn't get better because of the style; same goes with freeverse. It's very, very interesting that you cannot or will not see that. And evidence? What evidence? Saying that traditional poetry has had a longer history and some of the best writers have used it is not evidence. That's just a fact. Just because all the movie stars drive Lexuses doesn't mean that a Lexus is better than an Infiniti. It's just a fact. Not to mention freeverse wasn't really around back in Shakespeare's time so he couldn't really explore it too much either. A lot of great writers came out of freeverse too Ess. Do you deny that? Or do you think that any traditional poem (maybe one of yours) is better than a Ginsberg poem or a Bukowski poem or even a poem by Breton? This is the last time I will say this, because I know this to be the truth: IT IS NOT ABOUT THE STYLE, IT IS ABOUT THE SKILL OF THE WRITER. “Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.” |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Why not keep on the topic? The topic is not I.
Neither of them are like Freeverse. Ford or Chevy doesn't try to avoid structure, form, or rules. In fact they follow them very strictly, which makes them more along the lines of form verse, not freeverse. Imagine if they decided that structure shouldn't belong to the car anymore? That a frame, lights, windows, seat belts, etc, or other important parts of structure. The car wouldn't be strong, safe, and in the end wouldn't even look much like a car anymore.
Skill doesn't make up for a lack of form and structure. Skill at making a car without tried and practiced equipment, or without safety features, seatbelts, mirrors, doors, windows, etc, doesn't make up for the lack of tried and practiced equipment, safety features, seatbelts, mirrors, doors, etc. Nor does skill at making poetry without meter and rhyme make up for the lack of meter and rhyme. There is nothing poetically skillful about not using poetic meter or rhyme. Any form of writing, including the crudest scribble of words can do that. But it seems you would even call the crudest scribble, full of curse words and obscurities too, equal poetry to that of Shakespeare, just because the author was very skillful.
I agree about the first statement. But not about the second. When poet and his poem show observance and respect to the traditions and the things that strengthen and distinguish poetry as poetry and that help skill, such as meter and rhyme, then those things shall help them the more they help themselves with them, and even when the poem is much weaker than it may be, it shall be stronger as a poem than a poem that is weak and lacks any pursuit to respect and practice the traditions and attributes that most strengthen, distinguish, and make poetry familiar to people.
Yes, many great writers. But not many great poets.
Yes, any traditional poem that is well written. But I wouldn't consider every traditional poem as necessarily being a better literary work. A piece of literary work may be a stronger literary work overall even though it be a weaker form of poetry. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
quote: Actually Ess, you are very much part of the topic. Your attitude towards this is one of the main problems I have. Of course, you can think whatever you want, no one is here to stop you and I don't care to stop you. But when you say that an opinion is an ironclad fact, that's where I have my problem, with you. quote: Come on now Ess, I was giving an example. Two different styles of cars and two different styles of writing. quote: If you're going to be so literal, then fine, I'll play along. Think of the newer cars as freeverse, ok. The newer cars have keyless ignition, cameras on the back of the car for going in reverse; automatic parallel parking, new and improved side airbags; computer ports to hook up your ipod to the car, built-in GPS systems and so on and so forth. So no Essorant, they don't "follow the rules very strictly." In fact, they replaced those rules with newer, better systems, structures and rules. So there you go. quote: You say all this on the conceited notion that freeverse a.k.a. change from the norm, is a negative/inferior thing. Think of it as improvements where improvements are needed, like my above examples on the newer vehicles. They are not distorting the frame, they are altering it to make it better. Some people will consider the changes to be in good form and some people will think those changes are distortions. You fall in the latter group. Just because something is different from your preferences doesn't make it wrong or obsolete. You're going along the lines of "literary racism" Ess, if you know what I mean. quote: A poem is not required to have meter and rhyme! Look at the Psalms in the Bible. Those are considered poetic prayers and they don't rhyme do they? No, hardly any of them do. quote: Your opinion. Your opinion. Your opinion! quote: I highly disagree with you. quote: Is that meant to be an insult Ess? That I have no knowledge or understanding of what a good poem is? I think that is an insult. Let me lay it out for you: If the "author was very skillful" then his writings wouldn't be "the crudest scribble" because he had talent! And is that where your problem is, obscurities and curse words? Is that really where your problem is? quote: Many great poets Ess. Look, you're an etymologist and a fine one, I respect that, I really do. But if you just look at poetry for its definition then you are closing your eyes to what poetry really is. Music is not just playing the correct notes, it's feeling the music with your entire body and soul. Anyone can play the right notes but if their soul isn't into it then it is not truly great music. And that passion cannot be defined in some dictionary definition. It cannot. Look at the first definition of "poetry" in the dictionary: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/poetry quote: I don't see anything about rhyming or meter in that first definition. I see rhythm, and good freeverse has rhythm in the same way jazz has rhythm. Now look at the second definition: quote: That is your definition, the one right under mine. Because poetry is not about rhyming or meter, it is about "exciting pleasure by beautiful, imaginative, or elevated thoughts." And if you can't see that then I truly do feel bad for you because you're only seeing half of what poetry is. And you're only looking at it for your textbook definition. “Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.” |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
It's not about the style. It's not about the skill of the writer. All that matters is the preference of the reader. Oh - and comparing poetry to cars? Pshaw. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
quote: I agree completely. You're not going to submit a Jackson Pollock to a Renaissance museum. quote: That was the best I could come up with at the time. “Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.” |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
What you described by cars sounds more like Traditional Verse to me. Traditional Verse is the one that uses "blue prints" or "models" that are already known to work to such an extent as practiced thro past experiences, and builds upon that, adding new things, varying things, testing things etc. Tradition is a root, on which the tree finds strength by standing thereon, and growing thereof. What root does freeverse stand on, other than the root of evil? As well what "systems, structures and rules" did free verse bring? The line break was already around before freeverse, even in prose, I believe. Although I admit it wasn't taken to such vain excess as it is in Freeverse. Furthermore, I think most of the literary world already didn't and still doesn't for the most part use things like poetic meter and rhyme and syllable counts. Most of prose, most of scriptwriting, histories, etc, especially today. So what's new and unique about not using such things? Of course Math and Science for the most part don't use poetic meter and rhyme and syllable counts either. So if you are seeking "change from the normal" and "unique" What is the change and uniquemess about it? Nothing. It is already found almost everywhere. You may choose to use no rhyme, no meter, no syllable count, in every other artform. So why would you choose poetry? Just so you have very strong traditions that include meter, rhyme, and syllablecounts, to try to knock off the stage, and try to assimilate poetry to what already predominates in basically every other symbolic art? |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
Ess, I can't talk to you. You've ignored all my points and you obviously can't be reasoned with. None of your points prove anything except your overwhelming bias. Have a good one. “Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.” |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Ed Just because one doesn't write as long a post or a post that pecks as much at every statement doesn't mean he ignored the other's points or didn't take the points into consideration when commenting. I didn't ignore your points at all, I just didn't feel the need individually to pinch and peck at every one, nor did I disagree with every one. As far as "bias" goes, all that may be said about your posts as well. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
quote: When you refuse to acknowledge or even give me the common decency to respond to my stronger points that do, in fact, prove you wrong; I call that ignoring. quote: I'm not arguing that freeverse is necessarily better... or worse. I'm arguing that style doesn't make the piece, skill does. So no, I'm not being biased. Yes, I prefer freeverse but I'm not saying that form verse is inferior to it, unlike everything you say. “Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.” |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Sorry, if I don't find the same points you find "stronger" stronger. Perhaps you may mark them off, so I know which points are compulsory, and which ones are not? I admit I don't think your approach to the topic very direct when you talk about me, the opinionatedness of my opinion, or bias, and almost anything else except directly talking about the forms themselves. The closest you seemd to come to talking about the manners of Freeverse itself was likening freeverse to "new cars" and claiming "In fact, they replaced those rules with newer, better systems, structures and rules", but you didn't refer directly to freeverse in this example, nor give any examples of how freeverse itself actually lives up to that.
I never said you were. I already tried to address your point about style and skill. The skill doesn't make up for lack of structure and form and strength. The same skill using straw to form a house doesn't magically make the straw as strong as the same skill using brick to make a house. No matter how much skill the first pig had, his house simply wasn't as strong as that of the pig that made his house with brick. Likewise, Freeverse is not as strong in comparison to Traditional verse, because it detaches or tries to "free" itself from the strong traditional forms and structures that strongly distinguishes poetry as poetry, and assimilates it to the way the language is already being used in almost any other craft (that is usually without things such a poetic meter, rhyme, or syllable counts). Equal skill doesn't automatically mean equal form.
That's based on the presumption that the forms are equally strong, and therefore we ought to treat them thus. I obviously don't agree with that, in the same I way I don't agree a skillful house formed with straw is as strong as a skillful house formed with bricks. |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi Merry Pipsters! (uh, not you, Edster, you're being cranky )I think the original question was: Is rap poetry? I think by the traditionalist's definition, it is, having meter, rhyme, flowing imagery, and emotional content. Rap as a specific form also has specific antecedents, aside from generic antecedents dating back at least to street minstrels in the English poetic tradition. Is RAP an acronym for Ryhthm And Poetry? No. That notion is a tack-on, way after the fact. Rap has three sources in urban Black American culture. First, it comes from the skip-rope rhymes of children, specifically girls, and specifically in the form which initially flourished in Washington D.C, then became a part of contemporary culture. Second, rap is directly related to "The Dozens," an insult game involving wit, rhyme, and vulgarity. (you can google "The Dozens" for the long form of this reference.) Third "rap" (and Essorant, you will love the etymology on this one!) as a slang verb has long meant a specific way of talking (among other things) in a comic and humiliating way. The contemporary film, "Barbershop" has wonderfully funny examples of this. It's likely that most "rappers" haven't got a clue about the antecdents, and don't care. In a way, that's a shame. At the same time, I hope not too many people do dissertations on it and kill all the fun. Best, Jim |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
Yeah I am kinda cranky today. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
quote: My pleasure: Let's look at what I said about the definition of a poem: quote: Poetry does not require rhyming or meter. Because: quote: What do you have to say about that? “Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.” |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
There is nothing wrong with that. Just like a house is not necessarily required to use materials stronger than straw to at least be a house. By all means freeverse is poetry, just like a straw house is still a house. But that doesn't make it stand as strong as as a well written traditional verse anymore than simply qualifying as a house makes the skillful strawhouse just as strong as the wellmade brick house. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Some people think think Van Gogh was a hack, had no actual artistic talent. Others think his work is nothing short of art personified. One side can declaim his lack of clearly defined style, saying that if you don't "color within the lines," you aren't really creating art - instead, you have to follow the forms and make a painting match reality. The other side believes that lack of conventional form is exactly what makes his work so brilliant. Ess - you have an obvious bias against free verse. Ed - you have a obvious bias toward free verse. Arguing whether it's still art if someone colors outside the lines isn't going to make one bit of difference; either you're going to like Van Gogh's work, or you wont. There's nothing wrong with either side, it comes down to nothing more than a matter of preference. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
Ok Ess, you obviously don't understand what I'm saying. quote: Clearly you didn't read the definition of what a poem is. The definition does not include rhyming or meter in it. So a good poem does not need rhyming or meter because poetry itself is not defined by rhyming or meter. A good poem is defined by the content of its definition which is: quote: As long as those elements are put into the poem, it will be a good poem. Not only does it not mention rhyming or meter, but it also does not mention having to follow a certain pattern. Do you see now? I really hope you do. “Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.” |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Ed, Indeed that vague minimum is basically all that freeverse aspires to, but it is not all that Traditional verse aspires to, and that is one of the reasons why I find Freeverse inferior to Traditional Verse. Traditional poetry furthers the building of traditions that have already been practiced and proved thro the ages as more than just that vague minimum expressed in the definition you gave. Not only do the earliest and most, if not all traditions, of the wide variety of Traditional Verse in English, fulfill such a vague minimum, but they go further, stronger, and better, by heightening the language, artistry, and musical strength, by especially using poetic meters and rhymes, and thereby also specifically giving much more distinction to the art. That is why when you take the linesbreaks away from almost any Traditional Verse most people still strongly recognize it as a poem, because they are familiar with the unique qualities and impact of poetic meter and rhyme, distinct from prose and conversation, but if you take the linebreaks away from Freeverse, people don't recognize it as a poem anymore, for there is nothing very distinct that distinguishes it from prose or conversation. [This message has been edited by Essorant (07-12-2007 11:23 AM).] |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
Thank you for your opinion. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Suggesting again that it is only "opinion"? Well, you still didn't prove that Ed. Anyway, thank you as well for your opinions, and using as much evidence and truth as you could bring forth. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
quote: My God, only you know to really push my buttons. Seriously, your passive-aggressiveness is like a well oiled machine. Maybe that's why I like you, because you annoy me so much. quote: What evidence do you need Essy? See I don't need to give you the type of evidence you're looking for because one, I already did and two: you haven't given me any evidence supporting your so-called "fact." Oh and by the way, you've already admitted that it is simply your opinion when you said: quote: You unknowingly proved my point that it is your opinion. It is "why you find" it superior, not "why it is" superior. Your opinion; not in any way, shape or form a fact. And a wiser man than myself said this: quote: Need I explain "tradition" again? Fine. Just because something proved itself to be the best in the past does not mean it is still the best by today's standards. Let's look at the history of the different modes of transportation. Horses vs. Automobiles. Horses have been the superior and traditional mode of transportation since the time before Jesus. The horse was proven to be the best and most effective way to get around. Then, now bear with me here, the automobile was invented! The people of the world went crazy; finally another way to move about was created! And soon the horse was found inferior to the automobile because the horse was/is inferior to the automobile. So Ess, just because something has tradition and history doesn't mean it is the best or better than something newer, it just means it has history, nothing more. So you ride a horse Ess? Or do you drive a car? “Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.” |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: I think you'll find that they're both modes of transport and the superiority of one over the other depends on what aspect or attribute you're looking at. Which is a little like poetry, neither free verse nor traditional forms are superior to the other, they've each got their good and bad points and promoting one above the other really is like comparing apples and oranges and deciding which is the best. Is rap poetry? The lyrics certainly fall into that category, though when accompanied by music they'd have to be technically categorised as songs. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Ed, This argument is going no where. All you keep doing is suggesting everything on my side is "opinion", and then you make new additions to bandying generalizations in the form of indirectness referring to cars and horses, but don't show anything of how poetry specifically lives up to what you say or corresponds to anything you say in your indirect generalizations. Earlier I responded to your point about cars and argued and reasoned why Traditional Verse is more like your description of new cars than Freeverse, when you yourself didn't give any demonstration of how freeverse lives up to what you were suggesting. Here is my comment again: "What you described by cars sounds more like Traditional Verse to me. Traditional Verse is the one that uses "blue prints" or "models" that are already known to work to such an extent as practiced thro past experiences, and builds upon that, adding new things, varying things, testing things etc. Tradition is a root, on which the tree finds strength by standing thereon, and growing thereof. What root does freeverse stand on, other than the root of evil? As well what "systems, structures and rules" did free verse bring? The line break was already around before freeverse, even in prose, I believe. Although I admit it wasn't taken to such vain excess as it is in Freeverse. Furthermore, I think most of the literary world already didn't and still doesn't for the most part use things like poetic meter and rhyme and syllable counts. Most of prose, most of scriptwriting, histories, etc, especially today. So what's new and unique about not using such things? Of course Math and Science for the most part don't use poetic meter and rhyme and syllable counts either. So if you are seeking "change from the normal" and "unique" What is the change and uniquemess about it? Nothing. It is already found almost everywhere. You may choose to use no rhyme, no meter, no syllable count, in every other artform. So why would you choose poetry? Just so you have very strong traditions that include meter, rhyme, and syllablecounts, to try to knock off the stage, and try to assimilate poetry to what already predominates in basically every other symbolic art?" I also argued and reasoned to refer to how Freeverse and Traditional verse correspond to the analogy I gave of making a house with straw and making a house with brick: "The same skill using straw to form a house doesn't magically make the straw as strong as the same skill using brick to make a house. No matter how much skill the first pig had, his house simply wasn't as strong as that of the pig that made his house with brick. Likewise, Freeverse is not as strong in comparison to Traditional verse, because it detaches or tries to "free" itself from the strong traditional forms and structures that strongly distinguishes poetry as poetry, and assimilates it to the way the language is already being used in almost any other craft (that is usually without things such a poetic meter, rhyme, or syllable counts). Equal skill doesn't automatically mean equal form. " As long as you keep only accusing my opinion of being an opinion, something that doesn't prove it false whatsoever, and don't try to back up your analogies by showing how the form of poetry itself corresponds to your indirect generalizations suggesting Freeverse to be like "new cars" and bringing " newer, better systems, structures and rules", or to be like the automobile compared to the horse, then I don't see how you may say your argument stands as strongly as mine. I never tried to say that Traditional verse is better just because it has traditions, but because of what those traditions include and do and the distinctness they give to poetry. I'm not willing to say Freeverse doesn't have any tradition either. But I am willing to acknowledge and say that its tradition is not as strong as that of Traditional Verse. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I must disagree with you, grinch. Apples and Oranges themselves are not made by men, and therefore we can't do "better or worse" at making them. But if we represent them in art, indeed a way of representing an orange may be stronger and better than a form that is used to represent an apple. Just because a form meets the minimum of being art, doesn't mean it is as good as any and every other form. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
quote: Couldn't agree more Grinch. Try telling that to Essorant. quote: You are saying freeverse is inferior to form verse, which is an opinion. Now three people, Chris, Grinch and myself say that your statement of: "Traditional poetry is superior and that is a fact" is just your opinion because it is. Are you saying everyone is wrong and you are right? quote: Because we aren't arguing the same things Ess. You are arguing that form verse is better; I'm arguing that neither is better. So that's why I'm not offering any proof that freeverse is superior. Of course, I prefer freeverse, that is the style I write in and the style I read. I love it a great deal like you love form verse; I feel passionate about it. In my analogies, I compare the newer elements (a.k.a. the newer cars, and the automobile in the horse vs. car analogy) to freeverse because freeverse is newer than traditional form; so that is why I did that. quote: I had originally ignored this because it makes your entire view look ridiculous. What kind of statement is that? Please... quote: It brought absolute freedom to express oneself. It brought more interesting word combinations and fresh, important ideas. That is what I think freeverse brought to the poetic world. That's what I think so therefore, that is my opinion. quote: It's your bias that you consider form verse the "brick" and freeverse the "straw." Many, many people would disagree with you. quote: I told you, I only compared freeverse to the newer because it is, in fact, the newer style. Traditional poetry is older than freeverse so that is why I worded it that way. quote: Again, you're arguing that your style is better. I'm arguing that neither of the two are superior. quote: So what? So what if its tradition isn't as "strong" as form verse? The history of the car doesn't go back as far as the horse. So what's your point? See, you say that you're not basing your argument on tradition but you can't seem to stop talking about it. The reason we aren't getting anywhere Ess, is because you are not listening to me. I'm only arguing that your opinion that form verse is better than freeverse is just your opinion and not the fact that you believe it to be. That's all... “Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.” |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Ess - as usual, you're arguing perception. It is a topic that cannot be argued critically, because you can only judge based on your perception. Your interpretation of the expectation of others' perception is, at best, predicated on your ability to suspend judgment (personal bias). Even at that point, you can only intuit what their perception might be based on historical data you've gained from interacting with others and hearing of their perceptions (logical inquiry). At the end of it? You still have apples and oranges. (By the way, man DOES create apples and oranges. Modified produce is hardly news, and I'll be willing to wager even you have partaken of your fair share of modified produce, even if unknowingly.) Besides, that was hardly Edward's point about apples and oranges, which I believe you well know. His point is that you're trying to compare two substantially different items, which have little enough commonality that they are more fairly judged as individual items. You yourself have pointed out in this and other threads all the distinct differences between the two "forms." Again, all of which doesn't matter. It's about PREFERENCE. Your statements show a clear bias, which makes many of your adjoining statements suspect in their validity. Even reading through the other “What is Poetry” thread, your statements felt… aloof, as if there exists a higher level that has been achieved, disdaining the opinions and perceptions of others. There is no acceptance that I’ve found in your statements that allow others to feel comfortable holding an opinion outside the ones that you’ve posted. This is not logical. It is also limiting. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
quote: True, but that has to do with the skill of the artist, not the set style he uses. So you do agree with me that it is not about the style, it is about the skill? Why don't you just argue that orange is a better color than red? That is all you can really say anyways. “Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.” |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I doubt it. All I know is that I never tried to say my argument was the fact of poetry. And I never tried to say it didn't include my opinion and bias. I have no problem facing the fact that my argument is the fact of itself, an argument, and that it includes my opinion and bias too. But neither of those things defeat it nor determine that it can't or doesn't bespeak a truth about poetry. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Essorant, Do you like fruit? Which do you prefer apples or oranges? Do you like poetry? Which do you prefer free verse or traditional forms? It doesn't matter whether man constructed poetry, when it comes to judging superiority people prefer what they prefer regardless, which is why the apples\oranges comparison is valid. Ever hear of reductio ad absurdem Ess? You can expand the logical premise you've constructed to show that it doesn't hold water, poetry is a set that contains free and traditional verse, and you maintain that free verse is inferior. OK let's go along with that and see where it gets us. Traditional verse is a set that contains, amongst other things, sonnets and ballads, your rules of judgement predict a hierarchy within sets so which is superior between the two forms? quote: Your arguments aren't reasonable or logical, the analogy begs the question by equating the house of bricks with traditional verse and the house of straw with free verse. If I suggested that automobiles are like brick houses and horses are like straw houses that doesn't prove that one is more superior to the other regardless of the superiority of brick houses over straw houses. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
quote: Ess If I may, I'd like to show you a few quotes of yours that don't quite match up to what you're saying now: quote: quote: quote: quote: In these quotes Ess, you are implying, more than implying, that your opinion is not just an opinion but quite the opposite. Take a look at the last quote: "As long as you keep only accusing my opinion of being an opinion" You are saying that your opinion is more than just your own personal assessment. You are insinuating that what you are saying is "fact" when you said: "Suggesting again that it is only 'opinion'" You almost act offended that I referred to what you were saying as just your estimation. So yes Essorant, you did imply that what you were saying was higher than a "mere opinion" and leaned towards fact. That's how I see it. quote: And even here, you vaguely attest that what you were saying is indeed a fact. Your tactics are very sly; I give you that. But your words are contradictory. You are pretty much just saying, "I didn't specifically say it was a fact but that doesn't mean it's not a fact." “Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.” |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Grinch,
I believe it does. An orange or apple isn't the difference between choosing to spit in your face to express something or choosing to speak to you respectfully, but a man's manners however, may be. Forms of art, are also, in a more cultivated form, men's choices and manners. Just because they are forms of art at the bare minimum, doesn't mean they are automatically equal in virtue and strength.
Neither. It is not about a hierarchy, but about preservation and being a part of more than just the modern present. Poetry is not just Today's Poetry. It is not just defined by the poets of today. The Ballad and Sonnet didn't come from a bunch of Modernistic Revolutionaries trying to "free" poetry from its traditions and its most familiar attributes. They came from cultivating and building upon the traditions and familiar attributes that were already there, and built another way of using those. They didn't take away those things in order to make them, they used them in order to further them What makes freeverse inferior is that it doesn't retain and build upon what is already strongly builtt, but it begins from variable scratch over and over again, as if there needs to be a new foundation every day. To say that this is on the same level as building upon a more common foundation that builds upon what is already strongly built thro ages great work, is a wonderful delusion. And very convenient for an age that is in such a rush and distracted by so many other things, that it seldom has the time to learn and build upon the expertise of others that had mastery in the art. It pleases their rush and ignorance automatically to treat any form they come up with as "equal".
I agree with you. This argument had probably gone much better if we hadn't muddled it with such analogies. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
I don't know, Ess - I've always heard it was more challenging (and therefore required more talent) to successfully create something from scratch than it was to stand on the shoulders of giants to reach the moon. What I hear from you is that we should be constrained to the past and forego any alternate futures. I say this in conjunction with the recognition of some of your preferences, such as walking vs. driving. You prefer the past. I prefer the future. With you looking back and me looking forward, we'll always be walking away from each other. That's too bad. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Ed, I don't know exactly how far the "more" goes. All I am saying is that my opinion (as everyone else's) comes along with more than just itself and refers to more than just itself. No opinion works from a secret pocket detached from reality. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: I'm not surprised you can't see a hierarchy in the set labelled "Traditional verse" for the simple reason that there isn't one, the only delimiter is preference, so why do you maintain that a hierarchy exists in the set labelled "poetry" that contains Traditional and Free verse? Remember reductio ad absurdem? You seem to suggest that tradition is good and new poetry forms are bad - right? To test the absurdity of this suggestion lets make you god of poetry for a few minutes, with the ability to decree the superiority of poetry using the old and new yardstick. Rewind to a time when ballads were king, along comes a new upstart - sonnets - new is bad ergo Sonnets are bad, old is good so Ballads are good. Now rewind a little further to a time when ballads were in their infancy, ballads are new and new is bad so ballads are bad. Now fast forward into the future, past the present day where rap as a new poetic form is bad to 100,000 years from now, ballads, sonnets and free verse and rap are really old. They're different ages obviously but on the timescale were looking at the time between the creation of each is negligible and by the old\new yardstick all four are now good. But we made you god of poetry didn't we so lets expand your powers, you now have the ability to remove the bad and keep the good based on the old\new criteria - do you see the absurdity? At some point everything is new and eventually everything gets old, you can't use the old\new yardstick on free verse without applying it to sonnets, rap and ballads and if you did there wouldn't be any traditional verse! There is a way you can elevate traditional verse over free verse but you'd need to go further than have so far, you'd need to remove free verse from the set labelled poetry completely and argue that it isn't in fact poetry at all. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Maybe so. I also heard it is more challenging to face the coldness of winter with no clothes on. Ever tried it?
I am not saying we are constrained to the past, but we have something better when we learn and build upon the success and progress of the past. Go ahead and begin at scratch again if you so wish. No one is stopping you. Go to the wilderness and start civilization all over again, and forgo and forget all the traditions that human civilization has already strongly, widely and diversly built upon. We will see how "better" your future is there.
No, no, I will not be walking away. I will be right here building upon our home, so by the time you get back from your naked winters and wanderings in the wilderness, it will be Heaven |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
quote: Aye! Double Dutch is too much for me! But don't forget hand jives. (clapping games) "Miss Mary Mack, mack, mack All dressed in black, black, black With silver buttons, buttons, buttons All down her back, back, back She asked her mother, mother, mother for 15 cents, cents, cents To see the elephants, elephants, elephants Jump over the fence, fence, fence They jumped so high, high, high They touched the sky, sky, sky And never came back back back 'till the 4th of July, ly, ly!" just add the Rap artist 50 Cent's voice and rhythm to it and voila! You have the grit and holleration of Rap, the bunch of pansies stole everything from little girls. Yo yo Yo. (joking) Though Run D.M.C. knew what he was doing with Steven Tyler the day Rap was introduced on MTV. "Walk This Way," changed the history of bighairband air-time forever. They tore down some walls together, and to me that's always poetry. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
quote:Ironically enough, yes. You don't need the details, do you? Are you suggesting that we should take the easy route? If, at some point in this laudable history of yours, someone hadn't stepped outside the proverbial box, you'd be wearing fig leaves - not much different from sittin in the snow in your birthday suit! quote:I don't know if I'll agree with "better," but I will most definitely agree that we can learn from the past. The huge difference is in application - I can learn from the past and apply it to new "things." I don't need to simply mimic it. quote:And that's the opposite extreme. I think I should clarify again that I don't believe we need to wholly forget the past. Neither, however, should we be constrained by it. |
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e-ReK Junior Member
since 2007-07-20
Posts 15 |
here are my 2 cents... im a rapper myself, and i am surrounded by hip-hop culture. lets look at some lyrics by rappers that are nearly unknown and decide if rap is poetry. louis logic: [Edit - copyrighted material removed Sorry, but unless you are the author we ask that you not post someone else's words in the forums. If we want people to respect OUR copyright, we have to give the same respect to others. Ron] ill come back with my full in depth reply but im in a hurry :/ [This message has been edited by Ron (07-20-2007 06:45 PM).] |
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Amberzlynnc Member
since 2010-08-24
Posts 229New Jersey |
I did not bother to read the million replies but... yes! |
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