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Passions in Poetry

Rap=Poetry?

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Edward Grim
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25 posted 07-11-2007 02:27 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Yeah I am kinda cranky today.
Edward Grim
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26 posted 07-11-2007 02:59 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

quote:
Perhaps you may mark them off, so I know which points are compulsory, and which ones are not?


My pleasure:


Let's look at what I said about the definition of a poem:

quote:
"the art of rhythmical composition, written or spoken, for exciting pleasure by beautiful, imaginative, or elevated thoughts."

I don't see anything about rhyming or meter in that first definition. I see rhythm, and good freeverse has rhythm in the same way jazz has rhythm.


Poetry does not require rhyming or meter. Because:

quote:
poetry is not about rhyming or meter, it is about "exciting pleasure by beautiful, imaginative, or elevated thoughts."


What do you have to say about that?

“Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.”

Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
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Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


27 posted 07-11-2007 03:13 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

There is nothing wrong with that.

Just like a house is not necessarily required to use materials stronger than straw to at least be a house. By all means freeverse is poetry, just like a straw house is still a house.  But that doesn't make it stand as strong as as a well written traditional verse anymore than simply qualifying as a house makes the skillful strawhouse just as strong as the wellmade brick house.

Christopher
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28 posted 07-11-2007 03:52 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Some people think think Van Gogh was a hack, had no actual artistic talent. Others think his work is nothing short of art personified. One side can declaim his lack of clearly defined style, saying that if you don't "color within the lines," you aren't really creating art - instead, you have to follow the forms and make a painting match reality. The other side believes that lack of conventional form is exactly what makes his work so brilliant.

Ess - you have an obvious bias against free verse.

Ed - you have a obvious bias toward free verse.

Arguing whether it's still art if someone colors outside the lines isn't going to make one bit of difference; either you're going to like Van Gogh's work, or you wont. There's nothing wrong with either side, it comes down to nothing more than a matter of preference.
Edward Grim
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29 posted 07-11-2007 08:25 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Ok Ess, you obviously don't understand what I'm saying.

quote:
By all means freeverse is poetry, just like a straw house is still a house.  But that doesn't make it stand as strong as as a well written traditional verse anymore than simply qualifying as a house makes the skillful strawhouse just as strong as the wellmade brick house.


Clearly you didn't read the definition of what a poem is. The definition does not include rhyming or meter in it. So a good poem does not need rhyming or meter because poetry itself is not defined by rhyming or meter. A good poem is defined by the content of its definition which is:

quote:
the art of rhythmical composition, written or spoken, for exciting pleasure by beautiful, imaginative, or elevated thoughts.


As long as those elements are put into the poem, it will be a good poem.

Not only does it not mention rhyming or meter, but it also does not mention having to follow a certain pattern. Do you see now? I really hope you do.


“Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.”
Essorant
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30 posted 07-12-2007 03:28 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Ed,

Indeed that vague minimum is basically all that freeverse aspires to, but it is not all that Traditional verse aspires to, and that is one of the reasons why I find Freeverse inferior to Traditional Verse.   Traditional poetry furthers the building of traditions that have already been practiced and proved thro the ages as more than just that vague minimum expressed in the definition you gave.  Not only do the earliest and most, if not all traditions, of the wide variety of Traditional Verse in English, fulfill such a vague minimum, but they go further, stronger, and better, by heightening the language, artistry, and musical strength, by especially using poetic meters and rhymes, and thereby also specifically giving much more distinction to the art.  That is why when you take the linesbreaks away from almost any Traditional Verse most people still strongly recognize it as a poem, because they are familiar with the unique qualities and impact of poetic meter and rhyme, distinct from prose and conversation, but if you take the linebreaks away from Freeverse, people don't recognize it as a poem anymore, for there is nothing very distinct that distinguishes it from prose or conversation.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (07-12-2007 11:23 AM).]

Edward Grim
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31 posted 07-12-2007 10:20 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Thank you for your opinion.
Essorant
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32 posted 07-12-2007 10:47 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Suggesting again that it is only "opinion"?  Well, you still didn't prove that Ed.  

Anyway, thank you as well for your opinions, and using as much evidence and truth as you could bring forth.

Edward Grim
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33 posted 07-12-2007 11:32 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

quote:
Anyway, thank you as well for your opinions, and using as much evidence and truth as you could bring forth.


My God, only you know to really push my buttons. Seriously, your passive-aggressiveness is like a well oiled machine. Maybe that's why I like you, because you annoy me so much.  


quote:
Suggesting again that it is only "opinion"?  Well, you still didn't prove that Ed.


What evidence do you need Essy? See I don't need to give you the type of evidence you're looking for because one, I already did and two: you haven't given me any evidence supporting your so-called "fact."

Oh and by the way, you've already admitted that it is simply your opinion when you said:

quote:
and that is one of the reasons why I find Freeverse inferior to Traditional Verse.


You unknowingly proved my point that it is your opinion. It is "why you find" it superior, not "why it is" superior. Your opinion; not in any way, shape or form a fact.


And a wiser man than myself said this:

quote:
Some people think think Van Gogh was a hack, had no actual artistic talent. Others think his work is nothing short of art personified. One side can declaim his lack of clearly defined style, saying that if you don't "color within the lines," you aren't really creating art - instead, you have to follow the forms and make a painting match reality. The other side believes that lack of conventional form is exactly what makes his work so brilliant.

Ess - you have an obvious bias against free verse.

Ed - you have a obvious bias toward free verse.

Arguing whether it's still art if someone colors outside the lines isn't going to make one bit of difference; either you're going to like Van Gogh's work, or you wont. There's nothing wrong with either side, it comes down to nothing more than a matter of preference.

"it comes down to nothing more than a matter of preference." Wise words by the man Chris. You should listen to him Essorant, because he speaks the truth.


I know you can't possibly think that this is evidence to prove your "point:"

[QUOTE]Traditional poetry furthers the building of traditions that have already been practiced and proved thro the ages as more than just that vague minimum expressed in the definition you gave.  Not only do the earliest and most, if not all traditions, of the wide variety of Traditional Verse in English, fulfill such a vague minimum, but they go further, stronger, and better, by heightening the language, artistry, and musical strength, by especially using poetic meters and rhymes, and thereby also specifically giving much more distinction to the art.


Need I explain "tradition" again? Fine. Just because something proved itself to be the best in the past does not mean it is still the best by today's standards. Let's look at the history of the different modes of transportation. Horses vs. Automobiles. Horses have been the superior and traditional mode of transportation since the time before Jesus. The horse was proven to be the best and most effective way to get around. Then, now bear with me here, the automobile was invented! The people of the world went crazy; finally another way to move about was created! And soon the horse was found inferior to the automobile because the horse was/is inferior to the automobile. So Ess, just because something has tradition and history doesn't mean it is the best or better than something newer, it just means it has history, nothing more.

So you ride a horse Ess? Or do you drive a car?  



“Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.”
Grinch
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34 posted 07-12-2007 12:47 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
the horse was/is inferior to the automobile


I think you'll find that they're both modes of transport and the superiority of one over the other depends on what aspect or attribute you're looking at. Which is a little like poetry, neither free verse nor traditional forms are superior to the other, they've each got their good and bad points and promoting one above the other really is like comparing apples and oranges and deciding which is the best.

Is rap poetry?

The lyrics certainly fall into that category, though when accompanied by music they'd have to be technically categorised as songs.

Essorant
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35 posted 07-12-2007 12:58 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Ed,

This argument is going no where.  All you keep doing is suggesting everything on my side is "opinion", and then you make new additions to bandying generalizations in the form of indirectness referring to cars and horses, but don't show anything of how poetry specifically lives up to what you say or corresponds to anything you say in your indirect generalizations.  

Earlier I responded to your point about cars and argued and reasoned why Traditional Verse is more like your description of new cars than Freeverse, when you yourself didn't give any demonstration of how freeverse lives up to what you were suggesting.  Here is my comment again:

"What you described by cars sounds more like Traditional Verse to me.  Traditional Verse is the one that uses "blue prints" or "models" that are already known to work to such an extent as practiced thro past experiences, and builds upon that, adding new things, varying things, testing things etc.   Tradition is a root, on which the tree finds strength by standing thereon, and growing thereof.  What root does freeverse stand on, other than the root of evil?

As well what "systems, structures and rules" did free verse bring?  The line break was already around before freeverse, even in prose, I believe.  Although I admit it wasn't taken to such vain excess as it is in Freeverse.  Furthermore, I think most of the literary world already didn't and still doesn't for the most part use things like poetic meter and rhyme and syllable counts.  Most of prose, most of scriptwriting, histories, etc, especially today. So what's new and unique about not using such things?  Of course Math and Science for the most part don't use poetic meter and rhyme and syllable counts either.   So if you are seeking "change from the normal" and "unique" What is the change and uniquemess about it?  Nothing.  It is already found almost everywhere.  You may choose to use no rhyme, no meter, no syllable count, in every other artform.  So why would you choose poetry? Just so you have very strong traditions that include meter, rhyme, and syllablecounts, to try to knock off the stage, and try to assimilate poetry to what already predominates in basically every other symbolic art?"


I also argued and reasoned to refer to how Freeverse and Traditional verse correspond to the analogy I gave of making a house with straw and making a house with brick:

"The same skill using straw to form a house doesn't magically make the straw as strong as the same skill using brick to make a house.  No matter how much skill the first pig had, his house simply wasn't as strong as that of the pig that made his house with brick.  Likewise, Freeverse is not as strong in comparison to Traditional verse, because it detaches or tries to "free" itself from the strong traditional forms and structures that strongly distinguishes poetry as poetry, and assimilates it to the way the language is already being used in almost any other craft (that is usually without things such a poetic meter, rhyme, or syllable counts).  Equal skill doesn't automatically mean equal form. "

As long as you keep only accusing my opinion of being an opinion, something that doesn't prove it false whatsoever, and don't try to back up your analogies by showing how the form of poetry itself corresponds to your indirect generalizations suggesting Freeverse to be like "new cars" and bringing " newer, better systems, structures and rules", or to be like the automobile compared to the horse, then I don't see how you may say your argument stands as strongly as mine.   I never tried to say that Traditional verse is better just because it has traditions, but because of what those traditions include and do and the distinctness they give to poetry.  

I'm not willing to say Freeverse doesn't have any tradition either.  But I am willing to acknowledge and say that its tradition is not as strong as that of Traditional Verse.


Essorant
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36 posted 07-12-2007 02:18 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


Which is a little like poetry, neither free verse nor traditional forms are superior to the other, they've each got their good and bad points and promoting one above the other really is like comparing apples and oranges and deciding which is the best.


I must disagree with you, grinch.  Apples and Oranges themselves are not made by men, and therefore we can't do "better or worse" at making them.  But if we represent them in art, indeed a way of representing an orange may be stronger and better than a form that is used to represent an apple.  Just because a form meets the minimum of being art, doesn't mean it is as good as any and every other form.


Edward Grim
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37 posted 07-12-2007 02:44 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

quote:
neither free verse nor traditional forms are superior to the other


Couldn't agree more Grinch. Try telling that to Essorant.




quote:
All you keep doing is suggesting everything on my side is "opinion"


You are saying freeverse is inferior to form verse, which is an opinion. Now three people, Chris, Grinch and myself say that your statement of: "Traditional poetry is superior and that is a fact" is just your opinion because it is. Are you saying everyone is wrong and you are right?

quote:
when you yourself didn't give any demonstration of how freeverse lives up to what you were suggesting.


Because we aren't arguing the same things Ess. You are arguing that form verse is better; I'm arguing that neither is better. So that's why I'm not offering any proof that freeverse is superior. Of course, I prefer freeverse, that is the style I write in and the style I read. I love it a great deal like you love form verse; I feel passionate about it. In my analogies, I compare the newer elements (a.k.a. the newer cars, and the automobile in the horse vs. car analogy) to freeverse because freeverse is newer than traditional form; so that is why I did that.

quote:
What root does freeverse stand on, other than the root of evil?


I had originally ignored this because it makes your entire view look ridiculous. What kind of statement is that? Please...

quote:
As well what "systems, structures and rules" did free verse bring?


It brought absolute freedom to express oneself. It brought more interesting word combinations and fresh, important ideas. That is what I think freeverse brought to the poetic world. That's what I think so therefore, that is my opinion.

quote:
I also argued and reasoned to refer to how Freeverse and Traditional verse correspond to the analogy I gave of making a house with straw and making a house with brick


It's your bias that you consider form verse the "brick" and freeverse the "straw." Many, many people would disagree with you.


quote:
by showing how the form of poetry itself corresponds to your indirect generalizations suggesting Freeverse to be like "new cars" and bringing " newer, better systems, structures and rules", or to be like the automobile compared to the horse



I told you, I only compared freeverse to the newer because it is, in fact, the newer style. Traditional poetry is older than freeverse so that is why I worded it that way.


quote:
then I don't see how you may say your argument stands as strongly as mine.


Again, you're arguing that your style is better. I'm arguing that neither of the two are superior.
quote:
I'm not willing to say Freeverse doesn't have any tradition either.  But I am willing to acknowledge and say that its tradition is not as strong as that of Traditional Verse.


So what? So what if its tradition isn't as "strong" as form verse? The history of the car doesn't go back as far as the horse. So what's your point? See, you say that you're not basing your argument on tradition but you can't seem to stop talking about it.

  

The reason we aren't getting anywhere Ess, is because you are not listening to me. I'm only arguing that your opinion that form verse is better than freeverse is just your opinion and not the fact that you believe it to be. That's all...


“Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.”
Christopher
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38 posted 07-12-2007 02:49 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Ess - as usual, you're arguing perception. It is a topic that cannot be argued critically, because you can only judge based on your perception. Your interpretation of the expectation of others' perception is, at best, predicated on your ability to suspend judgment (personal bias). Even at that point, you can only intuit what their perception might be based on historical data you've gained from interacting with others and hearing of their perceptions (logical inquiry).

At the end of it? You still have apples and oranges. (By the way, man DOES create apples and oranges. Modified produce is hardly news, and I'll be willing to wager even you have partaken of your fair share of modified produce, even if unknowingly.)

Besides, that was hardly Edward's point about apples and oranges, which I believe you well know. His point is that you're trying to compare two substantially different items, which have little enough commonality that they are more fairly judged as individual items. You yourself have pointed out in this and other threads all the distinct differences between the two "forms."

Again, all of which doesn't matter.

It's about PREFERENCE.

Your statements show a clear bias, which makes many of your adjoining statements suspect in their validity. Even reading through the other “What is Poetry” thread, your statements felt… aloof, as if there exists a higher level that has been achieved, disdaining the opinions and perceptions of others. There is no acceptance that I’ve found in your statements that allow others to feel comfortable holding an opinion outside the ones that you’ve posted. This is not logical. It is also limiting.
Edward Grim
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39 posted 07-12-2007 02:52 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

quote:
But if we represent them in art, indeed a way of representing an orange may be stronger and better than a form that is used to represent an apple.


True, but that has to do with the skill of the artist, not the set style he uses. So you do agree with me that it is not about the style, it is about the skill?

Why don't you just argue that orange is a better color than red? That is all you can really say anyways.

“Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.”

Essorant
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40 posted 07-12-2007 05:55 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


Are you saying everyone is wrong and you are right?


I doubt it.  All I know is that I never tried to say my argument was the fact of poetry.  And I never tried to say it didn't include my opinion and bias.  I have no problem facing the fact that my argument is the fact of itself, an argument, and that it includes my opinion and bias too.  But neither of those things defeat it nor determine that it can't or doesn't bespeak a truth about poetry.


Grinch
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41 posted 07-12-2007 06:29 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Essorant,

Do you like fruit?

Which do you prefer apples or oranges?

Do you like poetry?

Which do you prefer free verse or traditional forms?

It doesn't matter whether man constructed poetry, when it comes to judging superiority people prefer what they prefer regardless, which is why the apples\oranges comparison is valid.


Ever hear of reductio ad absurdem Ess?

You can expand the logical premise you've constructed to show that it doesn't hold water, poetry is a set that contains free and traditional verse, and you maintain that free verse is inferior. OK let's go along with that and see where it gets us.

Traditional verse is a set that contains, amongst other things, sonnets and ballads, your rules of judgement predict a hierarchy within sets so which is superior between the two forms?

quote:
I also argued and reasoned to refer to how Freeverse and Traditional verse correspond to the analogy I gave of making a house with straw and making a house with brick:


Your arguments aren't reasonable or logical, the analogy begs the question by equating the house of bricks with traditional verse and the house of straw with free verse.

If I suggested that automobiles are like brick houses and horses are like straw houses that doesn't prove that one is more superior to the other regardless of the superiority of brick houses over straw houses.

Edward Grim
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42 posted 07-12-2007 09:05 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

quote:
All I know is that I never tried to say my argument was the fact of poetry.  And I never tried to say it didn't include my opinion and bias.


Ess

If I may, I'd like to show you a few quotes of yours that don't quite match up to what you're saying now:

quote:
shrug it off again, and flippantly say "it is just an opinion"


quote:
Suggesting again that it is only "opinion"?  Well, you still didn't prove that Ed.


quote:
All you keep doing is suggesting everything on my side is "opinion"


quote:
As long as you keep only accusing my opinion of being an opinion


In these quotes Ess, you are implying, more than implying, that your opinion is not just an opinion but quite the opposite. Take a look at the last quote: "As long as you keep only accusing my opinion of being an opinion" You are saying that your opinion is more than just your own personal assessment. You are insinuating that what you are saying is "fact" when you said: "Suggesting again that it is only 'opinion'"

You almost act offended that I referred to what you were saying as just your estimation. So yes Essorant, you did imply that what you were saying was higher than a "mere opinion" and leaned towards fact. That's how I see it.


quote:
I have no problem facing the fact that my argument is the fact of itself, an argument, and that it includes my opinion and bias too.  But neither of those things defeat it nor determine that it can't or doesn't bespeak a truth about poetry.



And even here, you vaguely attest that what you were saying is indeed a fact. Your tactics are very sly; I give you that. But your words are contradictory. You are pretty much just saying, "I didn't specifically say it was a fact but that doesn't mean it's not a fact."


“Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.”
Essorant
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43 posted 07-12-2007 10:47 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Grinch,


It doesn't matter whether man constructed poetry, when it comes to judging superiority people prefer what they prefer regardless, which is why the apples\oranges comparison is valid.


I believe it does.  An orange or apple isn't the difference between choosing to spit in your face to express something or choosing to speak to you respectfully, but a man's manners however, may be.  Forms of art, are also, in a more cultivated form, men's choices and manners.  Just because they are forms of art at the bare minimum, doesn't mean they are automatically equal in virtue and strength.  



"Traditional verse is a set that contains, amongst other things, sonnets and ballads, your rules of judgement predict a hierarchy within sets so which is superior between the two forms?"


Neither.  It is not about a hierarchy, but about preservation and being a part of more than just the modern present.  Poetry is not just Today's Poetry.  It is not just defined by the poets of today.  The Ballad and Sonnet didn't come from a bunch of Modernistic Revolutionaries trying to "free" poetry from its traditions and its most familiar attributes.  They came from cultivating and building upon the traditions and familiar attributes that were already there, and built another way of using those.  They didn't take away those things in order to make them, they used them in order to further them What makes freeverse inferior is that it doesn't retain and build upon what is already strongly builtt, but it begins from variable scratch over and over again, as if there needs to be a new foundation every day.  To say that this is on the same level as building upon a more common foundation that builds upon what is already strongly built thro ages great work, is a wonderful delusion.  And very convenient for an age that is in such a rush and distracted by so many other things, that it seldom has the time to learn and build upon the expertise of others that had mastery in the art.  It pleases their rush and ignorance automatically to treat any form they come up with as "equal".  



"If I suggested that automobiles are like brick houses and horses are like straw houses that doesn't prove that one is more superior to the other regardless of the superiority of brick houses over straw houses."


I agree with you.  This argument had probably gone much better if we hadn't muddled it with such analogies.  


Christopher
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44 posted 07-12-2007 11:19 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

I don't know, Ess - I've always heard it was more challenging (and therefore required more talent) to successfully create something from scratch than it was to stand on the shoulders of giants to reach the moon. What I hear from you is that we should be constrained to the past and forego any alternate futures. I say this in conjunction with the recognition of some of your preferences, such as walking vs. driving.

You prefer the past.

I prefer the future.

With you looking back and me looking forward, we'll always be walking away from each other. That's too bad.
Essorant
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45 posted 07-13-2007 12:14 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Ed,


I don't know exactly how far the "more" goes.  All I am saying is that my opinion (as everyone else's) comes along with more than just itself and refers to more than just itself.  No opinion works from a secret pocket detached from reality.  


Grinch
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46 posted 07-13-2007 08:06 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
It is not about a hierarchy, but about preservation and being a part of more than just the modern present.


I'm not surprised you can't see a hierarchy in the set labelled "Traditional verse" for the simple reason that there isn't one, the only delimiter is preference, so why do you maintain that a hierarchy exists in the set labelled "poetry" that contains Traditional and Free verse?

Remember reductio ad absurdem?

You seem to suggest that tradition is good and new poetry forms are bad - right? To test the absurdity of this suggestion lets make you god of poetry for a few minutes, with the ability to decree the superiority of poetry using the old and new yardstick.

Rewind to a time when ballads were king, along comes a new upstart - sonnets - new is bad ergo Sonnets are bad, old is good so Ballads are good. Now rewind a little further to a time when ballads were in their infancy, ballads are new and new is bad so ballads are bad.

Now fast forward into the future, past the present day where rap as a new poetic form is bad to 100,000 years from now, ballads, sonnets and free verse and rap are really old. They're different ages obviously but on the timescale were looking at the time between the creation of each is negligible and by the old\new yardstick all four are now good.

But we made you god of poetry didn't we so lets expand your powers, you now have the ability to remove the bad and keep the good based on the old\new criteria - do you see the absurdity? At some point everything is new and eventually everything gets old, you can't use the old\new yardstick on free verse without applying it to sonnets, rap and ballads and if you did there wouldn't be any traditional verse!

There is a way you can elevate traditional verse over free verse but you'd need to go further than have so far, you'd need to remove free verse from the set labelled poetry completely and argue that it isn't in fact poetry at all.

Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


47 posted 07-14-2007 01:48 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


I don't know, Ess - I've always heard it was more challenging (and therefore required more talent) to successfully create something from scratch than it was to stand on the shoulders of giants to reach the moon.


Maybe so.  I also heard it is more challenging to face the coldness of winter with no clothes on.  Ever tried it?    


What I hear from you is that we should be constrained to the past and forego any alternate futures.


I am not saying we are constrained to the past, but we have something better when we learn and build upon the success and progress of the past.   Go ahead and begin at scratch again if you so wish.  No one is stopping you.  Go to the wilderness and start civilization all over again, and forgo and forget all the traditions that human civilization has already strongly, widely and diversly built upon.  We will see how "better" your future is there.


With you looking back and me looking forward, we'll always be walking away from each other. That's too bad.


No, no, I will not be walking away.  I will be right here building upon our home, so by the time you get back from your naked winters and wanderings in the wilderness, it will be Heaven    


rwood
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since 02-29-2000
Posts 3797
Tennessee


48 posted 07-16-2007 10:00 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

quote:
Rap has three sources in urban Black American culture.   First, it comes from the skip-rope rhymes of children, specifically girls, and specifically in the form which initially flourished in  Washington D.C, then became a part of contemporary culture.



Aye! Double Dutch is too much for me! But don't forget hand jives. (clapping games)

"Miss Mary Mack, mack, mack
All dressed in black, black, black
With silver buttons, buttons, buttons
All down her back, back, back
She asked her mother, mother, mother
for 15 cents, cents, cents
To see the elephants, elephants, elephants
Jump over the fence, fence, fence
They jumped so high, high, high
They touched the sky, sky, sky
And never came back back back 'till the 4th of July, ly, ly!"

just add the Rap artist 50 Cent's voice and rhythm to it and voila! You have the grit and holleration of Rap, the bunch of pansies stole everything from little girls. Yo yo Yo. (joking)

Though Run D.M.C. knew what he was doing with Steven Tyler the day Rap was introduced on MTV. "Walk This Way," changed the history of bighairband air-time forever. They tore down some walls together, and to me that's always poetry.
Edward Grim
Senior Member
since 12-18-2005
Posts 1112
Greenville, South Carolina


49 posted 07-16-2007 10:45 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim


quote:
"I don't know, Ess - I've always heard it was more challenging (and therefore required more talent) to successfully create something from scratch than it was to stand on the shoulders of giants to reach the moon."


Maybe so.



Wow, so you do agree that more talent is required. The Devil must be wearing a sweater because it should be pretty damn cold down there right now. hahaha

 
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