navwin » Main Forums » English Workshop » Whenever things get tough - tips for the novelist.
English Workshop
Post A Reply Post New Topic Whenever things get tough - tips for the novelist. Go to Previous / Newer Topic Back to Topic List Go to Next / Older Topic
Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704


0 posted 2001-12-16 11:46 PM


By Witi Ihimaera (Famous NZ and international novelist/short story writer - look, I can name drop...) Seriously though, he has been published numerous times for over 20 years. I've provided a short bibliography link if you want to check out his creds.
http://www.reed.co.nz/profiled.cfm?viewauthor=35

It's just a hand out so no worries about copywrite issues lol     This could be worth printing out. I have two copies just in case!

When Things Go Wrong

1. Writing is one of the easiest and hardest of all artistic Disciplines. Poetry is difficult. In fiction, many people begin by writing short stories. The novelist, however, does not usually get published until his or her late twenties or early thirties. So don't be in a hurry. Allow yourself to grow.

2. I always believe in Stretch Exercises before I begin a day's work. By this I mean that I set myself a ten minute exercise: a description, piece of dialogue etc. Writing is a physical as well as a mental and emotional exercise and you require to be healthy and relaxed. Stretch exercises help you achieve this.

3. Most of us start writing from an Idea. If the idea is great the story or novel will have a greater chance of being great. If the idea is mediocre, the story or novel will probably be mediocre.

4. Try to commit to a Time Frame. I like to set myself impossible deadlines as means to make me work.

5. Always try to Write to be Published. It's no good spending all that time and effort if, at the end of it, you don't secure publication. Aiming at publication will help you to focus and sharpen your perspectives. Don't start writing if you don't have publication in mind.

6. False Starts are ok. Many writers have difficulty knowing where to start, finding the best place to begin, let alone how to begin or from whose perspective the story should be told. Figuring all this out, false starts, gong back to the beginning, are all part of the process, so live with it.

(My notes written in the margin: Cutting - easier to cut whole chapters than little bits. Write longer with the expectation that it will be cut by the publishers. If you are writing about anything personal - remember to tell the whole story, the reader can't read your mind).

7. No matter the Idea, one has to consider the Delivery. How is the idea or story going to be delivered and what is the best method of delivery?

8. Idea and Delivery need to be linked with Voice. What is the best voice to use for the story or novel? In work with autobiographical overtones, I always try to listen to what I call my First Voice. This voice is not an artistic voice in my case. But it allows me to get the stuff down on the page and to put the art into it at a later time. Some people are luckier in that their first voice is an artistic one.

9. Idea and Delivery cnnot be achieved on a First Draft. I have three R's: Research, (W)riting and Revision. A first draft must be allowed the opportunity to achieve its potential and it can't do this unless you put your work through other possiblities e.g. if you've written it in first person, try third person; or it you've written it in present tense - try past. (From K: the effects are striking).

10. The process of Research, Writing and Revision should allow your work to move from being one dimensional to Three Dimensional. Think of a triangle on a flat surface; this is your first draft. The triangle becomes a pyramid on your second draft and then coloured in at then next draft.  The same with a circle on a flat page; it should be a ball by the time you've finished your piece of work.

11. Always try to be Flexible. If you love every word to death in your first draft adn can't let it go, you're in trouble or need therapy. Writers who say, 'I can't change that' or 'but I meant it to be like that' are controlling their work and not allowing the work itself to have a say.

12. Try to always have a Forward Movement in your work. A story that starts at Point A should finish somewhere else at a Point B. Or, if it goes back to Point A, then it must do so by taking some sort of journey. In other words try to animate your slices of life, put them through Changes and aim at some sort of Resolution. Sometimes short stories are not short stories at all; they only think they are.

13. As well as Forward Movement, try to Sculpt. Have other movements happening within your work. Build up the Texture.

14. If you want to be a novelist, try know something of your History, your Tradition. Read widely in your chosen field, whether it be New Zealand (or any other country) Literature or Science Fiction. Knowing your history might give you a sense of place and provide a compass point for your work.

15. Not Knowing What To Do Next is ok. My advice is to sleep on it or leave it, or try to find some other way around the problem. If the problem persists go on to some other piece of work that you are clear about.

16. One of the chief problems is that although we see the Pictures In Our Heads sometimes we don't get them down on the page. If the Reader can't see what we can, it's probably because we haven't put it down clearly enough or sufficiently enough.

17. A book always has a Psychic life. I can't quite explain this, but it occurs in the space between the Writer and the Reader. It is already there, in the writing, and it is inherent in the idea that words are Talismanic, Ruinc. It is the energy, perhaps that the author has put into the writing. Whatever it is, you must safeguard it.

18. Writing a book is often like constructing a Grid. Your story should not only be linear but also feature the criss-cross movements of relationships and the various structures you apply to maintain the Dynamic of your story.

19. Be Consistent. Try to make the book consistent in all its substantive elements; eg, historically, socially, in terms of character behaviour, in terms of logical development of plot and so on.

20. You only have One Chance with the Reader. Readers don't read books with the same care that we have put into writing them. You can't fool a reader. You can't lie or get away with bad workmanship. If you want your reader to respect you, you must respect him or her.

21. Safeguard the story and your characters. Ultimately you, and only you, are responsible for your own work. Listen to what other people have to say, evaluate it but make your own decisions about whether the comments of others has validity or not.

22. There's something that nobody can teach, and it's Tension. The dynamic which provides the understanding and unseen structure to your book. I actually don't know what it is but I can recognise it when I see it.

23. There's More Than One Way of getting into a room. If you can't through the front door try the back door or climb through a window. Ie, see the text as a room, start at the end, in the middle if the beginning isn't working.

24. A Margin of 80-100% Excellence is an acceptable range to work within. Not every page is going to be as filled with quality as the next.

25. One of the constant debates we have is with ourselves. Whether we're good enough. Whether we can do it. Sometimes this battle becomes too big. So big that we actually give up writing. So one of our major battles is Getting Over Ourselves. If we can't do this the work can be lamed by our lack of confidence and our failure to believe in being there for the long haul. Indeed, as one gets further and further into this business it becomes harder to get back on the bike.

26. Shedding Tears is not the best response in moments of failure, disappointment, frustration, criticism and so on. In this business, being hard-headed, strong and having the guts to surmount the challenges - as well as talent, fortitude and luck - is what wins you your place in the sun.

27. All advice has a Use-By Date and is Not Always Applicable All Of The Time. Writing is a fluid and organic process and, depending on where you are in the spectrum, the advice will change also. In other words, rely on your instincts and understanding and learning. Eventually you will develop your own mantra for when things get tough for you.

28. Finally, try to think of your yourself as being there for the Long Haul. You're not just there to write a book. You are writing a career.

Words from a true sage lol

K


[This message has been edited by Severn (edited 12-16-2001).]

© Copyright 2001 Kamla Mahony - All Rights Reserved
anonymousfemale
Member Elite
since 2000-02-02
Posts 2797
Limbo
1 posted 2001-12-17 07:22 AM


Ahh, K, thank you very much for posting this! It couldn't have come at a better time.  

It's amazing the way you re-evaluate your writing after reading some helpful tips like the ones here.

Cheers!

Elizabeth

Sudhir Iyer
Member Ascendant
since 2000-04-26
Posts 6943
Mumbai, India : now in Belgium
2 posted 2001-12-17 08:06 AM


Thank you muchly.....

regards,
sudhir
P.S. maybe one day... I will write a book.... and I shall then remember these tips...

Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612
Hurricane Alley
3 posted 2001-12-17 08:55 AM


I just printed this. Thanks SO much Ms. K!!    
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669
Michigan, US
4 posted 2001-12-17 09:33 AM


Great stuff, Kamla. But does everyone actually agree with everything? Or am I the only who wants to say, "Yea, but…"
Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612
Hurricane Alley
5 posted 2001-12-17 11:43 AM


Gosh!!! Now I have READ it??? Ok..Ok...I'll get back to you on this.  
Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612
Hurricane Alley
6 posted 2001-12-17 07:46 PM



When Things Go Wrong

1. WHAT? I WON’T GET PUBLISHED UNTIL I’M 2O OR THIRTY? WAIT!! I’M 50! SHOULD I GIVE UP?

Writing is one of the easiest and hardest of all artistic Disciplines. Poetry is difficult. In fiction, many people begin by writing short stories. The novelist, however, does not usually get published until his or her late twenties or early thirties. So don't be in a hurry. Allow yourself to grow.

2. IF I COULD DO THIS EVERY DAY, I’D HAVE A SHORT STORY WRITTEN 365 DAYS A YEAR..I always believe in Stretch Exercises before I begin a day's work. By this I mean that I set myself a ten minute exercise: a description, piece of dialogue etc. Writing is a physical as well as a mental and emotional exercise and you require to be healthy and relaxed. Stretch exercises help you achieve this.

3. OH I DO DISAGREE – SOME GREAT STORIES COME FROM POOR OR MEDIOCRE IDEAS. Most of us start writing from an Idea. If the idea is great the story or novel will have a greater chance of being great. If the idea is mediocre, the story or novel will probably be mediocre.

4. LOLOLOLOLOLO TIME FRAME? I’LL NEED A SECRETARY PLEASE!  Try to commit to a Time Frame. I like to set myself impossible deadlines as means to make me work.

5. IT’S GOOD TO WANT THIS, BUT SOMETIMES (LIKE MY 10 MINUTE EXERCISES IN NUMBER 2, I JUST LIKE TO WRITE)  Always try to Write to be Published. It's no good spending all that time and effort if, at the end of it, you don't secure publication. Aiming at publication will help you to focus and sharpen your perspectives. Don't start writing if you don't have publication in mind.

6. I LIKE AN OUTLINE TO DO THIS. IF I’M HALF WAY THROUGH MY STORY AND NEED TO CHANGE THE PERSPECTIVE, IT’S GOING TO BE HARD FOR ME!! False Starts are ok. Many writers have difficulty knowing where to start, finding the best place to begin, let alone how to begin or from whose perspective the story should be told. Figuring all this out, false starts, gong back to the beginning, are all part of the process, so live with it.

7. WHAT IS DELIVERY? LIKE UPS OR FEDERAL EXPRESS? No matter the Idea, one has to consider the Delivery. How is the idea or story going to be delivered and what is the best method of delivery?

8. VOICE DEPENDS ON THE STORY…I BELIEVE SOME STORIES SHOULD NEVER BE TOLD FROM ONE VOICE.  Idea and Delivery need to be linked with Voice. What is the best voice to use for the story or novel? In work with autobiographical overtones, I always try to listen to what I call my First Voice. This voice is not an artistic voice in my case. But it allows me to get the stuff down on the page and to put the art into it at a later time. Some people are luckier in that their first voice is an artistic one.

9. Idea and Delivery cannot be achieved on a First Draft. I have three R's: Research, (W)riting and Revision. A first draft must be allowed the opportunity to achieve its potential and it can't do this unless you put your work through other possiblities e.g. if you've written it in first person, try third person; or it you've written it in present tense - try past. (From K: the effects are striking).

10. I LOVE TO DO RESEARCH. IN FACT I’VE BECOME SO ENGROSSED IN RESEARCH FOR A NOVEL THAT I LOST INTEREST IN THE NOVEL!! The process of Research, Writing and Revision should allow your work to move from being one dimensional to Three Dimensional. Think of a triangle on a flat surface; this is your first draft. The triangle becomes a pyramid on your second draft and then coloured in at then next draft. The same with a circle on a flat page; it should be a ball by the time you've finished your piece of work.

11. I AM FLEXIBLE!! AND I VERY WELL COULD USE THERAPY ANYWAY! Always try to be Flexible. If you love every word to death in your first draft and can't let it go, you're in trouble or need therapy. Writers who say, 'I can't change that' or 'but I meant it to be like that' are controlling their work and not allowing the work itself to have a say.

12. MY SHORT STORIES ARE NOT ALLOWED TO ‘THINK’ ON THEIR OWN. Try to always have a Forward Movement in your work. A story that starts at Point A should finish somewhere else at a Point B. Or, if it goes back to Point A, then it must do so by taking some sort of journey. In other words try to animate your slices of life, put them through Changes and aim at some sort of Resolution. Sometimes short stories are not short stories at all; they only think they are.

13. HUH? As well as Forward Movement, try to Sculpt. Have other movements happening within your work. Build up the Texture.

14. WHAT IF MY BOOK IS SET IN FANTASY 1200 BC ENGLAND? I’M SCREWED! If you want to be a novelist, try know something of your History, your Tradition. Read widely in your chosen field, whether it be New Zealand (or any other country) Literature or Science Fiction. Knowing your history might give you a sense of place and provide a compass point for your work.

15. WHEW!! THIS IS MY WRITING STYLE: I DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO DO NEXT! I’M SO GLAD IT’S OK. Not Knowing What To Do Next is ok. My advice is to sleep on it or leave it, or try to find some other way around the problem. If the problem persists go on to some other piece of work that you are clear about.

16. THIS ONE I AGREE WITH!! FINALLY! I HAVE A VIVID IMAGINATION BUT SOMETIMES IT IS HARD TO DESCRIBE WHAT I SEE. TRY TELLING SOMEONE HOW TO PUT ON A COAT WHO HAS NEVER SEEN A COAT – WEIRD.  One of the chief problems is that although we see the Pictures In Our Heads sometimes we don't get them down on the page. If the Reader can't see what we can, it's probably because we haven't put it down clearly enough or sufficiently enough.

17. I’LL GUARD IT WITH MY PSYSHIC LIFE (IF I CAN FIND IT). A book always has a Psychic life. I can't quite explain this, but it occurs in the space between the Writer and the Reader. It is already there, in the writing, and it is inherent in the idea that words are Talismanic, Ruinc. It is the energy, perhaps that the author has put into the writing. Whatever it is, you must safeguard it.

18. SOUNDS WAY TO STRUCTURED TO ME. SOMETIMES I LIKE TO BE CONFUSED. Writing a book is often like constructing a Grid. Your story should not only be linear but also feature the criss-cross movements of relationships and the various structures you apply to maintain the Dynamic of your story.

19. THIS IS EASY TO AGREE WITH!  Be Consistent. Try to make the book consistent in all its substantive elements; eg, historically, socially, in terms of character behaviour, in terms of logical development of plot and so on.

20. I DO RESPECT ANYONE WHO READS. You only have One Chance with the Reader. Readers don't read books with the same care that we have put into writing them. You can't fool a reader. You can't lie or get away with bad workmanship. If you want your reader to respect you, you must respect him or her.

21. IS THIS ABOUT EDITORS? Safeguard the story and your characters. Ultimately you, and only you, are responsible for your own work. Listen to what other people have to say, evaluate it but make your own decisions about whether the comments of others has validity or not.

22. IF YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT IT IS,  HOW DO YOU KNOW IT’S THERE. THIS DOES NOT COMPUTE!  There's something that nobody can teach, and it's Tension. The dynamic which provides the understanding and unseen structure to your book. I actually don't know what it is but I can recognise it when I see it.

23. THIS IS A GIVEN. UNLESS IT’S A WINDOWLESS ROOM WITH ONLY ONE DOOR. There's More Than One Way of getting into a room. If you can't through the front door try the back door or climb through a window. Ie, see the text as a room, start at the end, in the middle if the beginning isn't working.

24. YOU’VE BEEN READING MY WORK AGAIN!!!  A Margin of 80-100% Excellence is an acceptable range to work within. Not every page is going to be as filled with quality as the next.

25. SIGH..I DON’T OWN A BIKE. AND I DO LACK CONFIDENCE…One of the constant debates we have is with ourselves. Whether we're good enough. Whether we can do it. Sometimes this battle becomes too big. So big that we actually give up writing. So one of our major battles is Getting Over Ourselves. If we can't do this the work can be lamed by our lack of confidence and our failure to believe in being there for the long haul. Indeed, as one gets further and further into this business it becomes harder to get back on the bike.

26. *CRYING* WHY ARE YOU BEING SO MEAN TO ME? Shedding Tears is not the best response in moments of failure, disappointment, frustration, criticism and so on. In this business, being hard-headed, strong and having the guts to surmount the challenges - as well as talent, fortitude and luck - is what wins you your place in the sun.

27. IN OTHER WORDS, DON’T LISTEN TO A DARN THING YOU JUST SAID???  All advice has a Use-By Date and is Not Always Applicable All Of The Time. Writing is a fluid and organic process and, depending on where you are in the spectrum, the advice will change also. In other words, rely on your instincts and understanding and learning. Eventually you will develop your own mantra for when things get tough for you.

28. FROM YOUR MOUTH TO GOD’S EARS!!!  Finally, try to think of your yourself as being there for the Long Haul. You're not just there to write a book. You are writing a career.

hush
Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653
Ohio, USA
7 posted 2001-12-18 12:27 PM


I've got a "yeah, but..."

"5. Always try to Write to be Published. It's no good spending all that time and effort if, at the end of it, you don't secure publication. Aiming at publication will help you to focus and sharpen your perspectives. Don't start writing if you don't have publication in mind."

First of all, Sharon has a pretty good point- what about when you stretch? Is that publishing material? Or Journal writing? Even with the assumption that he is talking about novels (leaving out all the other publishable forms of writing), some people are very private about what they write. I had a discussion with a girl I know who is like that, and she brought up a very good point- that she always feels guilty when she reads Emily Dickinson- I mean, who's to say what poems Emily wanted people to read? So.... saying writing is no good unless it gets published is a very arrogant way of looking at things. Here he is assuming that we all write with that purpose in mind- some people do it purely for enjoyment, nothing more.

"we are all citizens of the womb before we subdivide
into shades and sexes- this side, that side" -Ani DiFranco

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669
Michigan, US
8 posted 2001-12-18 03:37 PM


Okay, here's my two cents. I have a strong disagreement with one point, lesser problems with a few others, and I think #6 needs more exploration to be useful.

But, before we go there, let's talk about Sharon's and hush's points (and I won't even try to be as funny as Sharon).

3. OH I DO DISAGREE - SOME GREAT STORIES COME FROM POOR OR MEDIOCRE IDEAS. I think the qualification here is that the author can't think it's a poor or mediocre idea. In fact, I suspect the problem with so many sequels or serials is that the author wrote them without the excitement felt during the first book. Poor idea equals no excitement equals lousy story.

7. WHAT IS DELIVERY? LIKE UPS OR FEDERAL EXPRESS? In a way, that's a good analogy - because you do have to choose which one to use. Delivery is the hundred and one choices the author makes that center around viewpoint and narrative. First person or third? Do you tell the story from beginning to end, or do you use flashbacks? Maybe chapter one will be the end of the story and everything will be one huge flashback? Maybe you'll tell the story as a Diary? Or a series of letters? Plot, character, and even setting determine what story you are telling. Change any one of those and you have a different story. Delivery, however, doesn't change the story as much as it changes the impact of the story.

8. VOICE DEPENDS ON THE STORY…I BELIEVE SOME STORIES SHOULD NEVER BE TOLD FROM ONE VOICE. Uh? I'm not sure I follow what you mean, Sharon? Narrative Voice is also often called style. Do you write rich, poetic prose like Dickens or Joyce? Or is it staccato, no-nonsense prose like Hemingway? Voice is almost always consistent within a single work and, for most authors, it's pretty consistent across their whole body of work. If you ever hear of writer saying, "I couldn't write that story," it usually means the story doesn't fit the Voice she's developed over a lifetime of writing.

10. I LOVE TO DO RESEARCH. IN FACT I'VE BECOME SO ENGROSSED IN RESEARCH FOR A NOVEL THAT I LOST INTEREST IN THE NOVEL!! That's called the World-Builders Syndrome, and I'm probably more guilty of it than most. I've spent two weeks researching just swords (and have about fifty links to prove it), and probably know more about wolves than most naturalists. For a while, the easy access of the Internet made my affliction worse. Lately, though, I've learned to use that instant access to my advantage. I no longer feel I need to know everything there is to know about a subject before I can start. Instead, I can (and do) break off right in the middle of a paragraph to go find out what I need to know to finish my next sentence. With libraries, that would have never worked. With the Internet, it's a walk in the park.

12. MY SHORT STORIES ARE NOT ALLOWED TO 'THINK' ON THEIR OWN. With short stories, that's probably necessary and good. Short fiction is much closer to poetry than it is to novels, in that every single word counts big time, and putting the words to paper is just the final step of what has already happened between your ears. In longer works, though, I think the story can take on a life of its own. Subplots can become main themes, and minor walk-on characters can become so interesting they evolve into major characters. Did you know Melville killed off his original protagonist very early in Moby Dick? Ahab was one of those minor characters that refused to be ignored.

13. HUH? (As well as Forward Movement, try to Sculpt. Have other movements happening within your work. Build up the Texture.) Texture usually refers to those things that don't determine the story (like plot and character), but do help to reinforce it. They add greater depth. Going back to Moby Dick, Melville has something like 40 straight pages of exposition on the intricacies of whale hunting. In modern fiction that's probably overdoing it, but I think Historical Romance is such a popular genre because, by its very nature, it has a lot of texture. I personally think this is one of the hardest things to handle in fiction, and requires a solid understanding of pace. You need texture, but you can't let it slow down the story (except where you need to slow down the story).

14. WHAT IF MY BOOK IS SET IN FANTASY 1200 BC ENGLAND? I'M SCREWED! I think when Ihimaera talks about "your History" and "your Tradition," he's not talking about historical research as much as genre research. If you want to set your fantasy story in early England, you should know what other writers have done and by extension, what the readers will expect. Someone is probably going to yell at me, but I think Tolkien's Middle Earth is probably early England. As just one example. Another might be the work of Jean M. Auel, who very nearly created a new genre about early-history fantasies. This rule is easily followed if you follow the broader rule - read, read, read.

15. WHEW!! THIS IS MY WRITING STYLE: I DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO DO NEXT! I'M SO GLAD IT'S OK. This is probably my biggest stumbling block. I write sequentially, and when I come to a scene and don't know what is going to happen next - I'm truly stuck. I've tried the "sleep on it" advice, but it only rarely helps me. What I've discovered, at least for myself, is that being stuck is usually a sign that I blew something two chapters ago. So, instead of trying to plunge forward, I go backwards. I throw away pages, start over, and write around the problem. By the time I get back to where I was stuck, I'm really at a whole different place. (I've also discovered that I often don't know what comes next because I don't want to write what I know should come next. That's entirely different problem, though.)

16. THIS ONE I AGREE WITH!! FINALLY! I HAVE A VIVID IMAGINATION BUT SOMETIMES IT IS HARD TO DESCRIBE WHAT I SEE. TRY TELLING SOMEONE HOW TO PUT ON A COAT WHO HAS NEVER SEEN A COAT - WEIRD. Strangely enough, this is one of the reasons why I enjoy fantasy and especially science fiction. Because the writer HAS to be able to describe the completely unknown. Probably the best fantasy writer for this is Terry Brooks. Imagine describing your entire life with utter clarity and brutal truth; that's what happens every time a character picks up the Sword of Shannara. The best SF writer for this is, without question, Larry Niven. He's come up with some alien cultures that are beyond description, and yet he makes them seem completely real. The trick? Metaphor and analogy. Even if they've never seen a coat, maybe they're crawled into a tight cave?

21. IS THIS ABOUT EDITORS? And, uh, people in forums?  

22. IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS,  HOW DO YOU KNOW IT'S THERE. THIS DOES NOT COMPUTE! Tension, and its sibling Conflict, are toughies to be sure. Narrative tension first has to be felt by the fictional characters. They have to want something badly, usually something they can't (or shouldn't) have, either something internal or something external. You can see how that closely aligns to Conflict. But Tension goes beyond conflict, because you then have to transfer that Tension from the character to the reader. The only way I know to do that is to make the reader really CARE about the character, to actually worry and fret and feel the character's pain. I have a real problem with tension because I care about my characters TOO much. I find myself writing away all their problems, if I'm not careful, and destroying the sense of tension.

25. SIGH..I DON'T OWN A BIKE. AND I DO LACK CONFIDENCE
26. *CRYING* WHY ARE YOU BEING SO MEAN TO ME? These go together, I think, and are both answered by one simple truth. There is absolutely, verifiably no possible way to succeed without first failing. It can't be done. No one in all of history has ever written anything good without first writing a whole lot of bad. I can only speak from personal experience, but I would guesstimate that most "good" writers have at least a few million words of experience behind them. You can't succeed without first failing. So every failure is a necessary step in the right direction. Welcome the failures. And write more and still more if you would make the journey in less time.

Now, let's jump back to #5 and cover Sharon's and hush's comments together.

5. IT'S GOOD TO WANT THIS, BUT SOMETIMES (LIKE MY 10 MINUTE EXERCISES IN NUMBER 2, I JUST LIKE TO WRITE)  Always try to Write to be Published.

If we changed this to "Always try to write for an Audience," would that change your minds. This is a tough one for me to discuss because the one point I disagree strongly about is #2. Exercises suck. I typically "warm up" by reading everything I wrote the day before, getting a feel for the tone, the voice, the pace, the current scene. I purposely stopped the day before when I knew exactly what the next sentence was going to be, and writing that next sentence is then easy. Every word I write is "for real." I've never done exercises, even in creative writing classes, and I've yet to pull a groan muscle (except maybe just then).

There are two types of aspiring writers. There are those who want to "be" writers, and those who "like to write." The first group wants what comes from being a successful writer, while the second group will write even if they are never published. The first group is willing to pay the price for success, the second group doesn't even consider it a price. They'd do it any way.

You don't have to write for publication. You do, I think, have to write for an audience. Writing, almost by definition, is communication, and that means there HAS to be a reader as well as the writer. I've kept a Journal, if not always religiously, for over twenty years. I have nightmares about someone finding it after I'm dead and buried. Definitely not for publication! But even there, I have an audience in mind. The Journal is a written equivalent of family photos, of memories, so the audience I write to is myself - five or ten years hence. If I were to change the audience, perhaps to my children, the story would also have to change. Because I would be communicating different things.

Unless you write for an audience, and know who that audience is, you can't really know what you're trying to say to them. There is no communication. For most writers the audience remains nebulous, and I personally think that's a mistake. The more specific you define your audience, the more you will know how to communicate to them. If you pick the right audience, someone who is a good representative of everyone, it becomes much easier to also speak to a Universal audience.

Gee, all of that rambling, and I still didn't talk about a deeper exploration of #6. Maybe it's time to let someone else talk for a while? How would YOU expound on false starts, the unfolding story, and the need for revision?

  

hush
Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653
Ohio, USA
9 posted 2001-12-18 11:11 PM


Ron-

I completely agree with what you're saying about audience. In fact, I think that the reason a lot of literature, poetry, and music have become so watered down and boring is because the artists (or merely the performers, in some cases, both in others) are trying to appeal to such a broad audience. The bigger the audience gets, the narrower the margin for creativity, so eventually, it all sounds the same.

That's a pretty big leap from "Write to get published." And I don't think he meant "write for an audience." I think he meant "why work your butt off and get nothing in return?" and the problem I have with that is the assumption that we all want fame and money and respect in return. Some people just want catharsis- and some just want the sheer pleasure of writing.

"6. False Starts are ok. Many writers have difficulty knowing where to start, finding the best place to begin, let alone how to begin or from whose perspective the story should be told. Figuring all this out, false starts, gong back to the beginning, are all part of the process, so live with it."

I think this has a lot to do with #9. It's like shopping for a prom dress... er, well, sort of. You might try one on and like it, but you should shop around for a while. See if something else fits better. And the first dress might be the right price, or your color, but what if the straps hurt, or your chest falls out when you dance too rough in it?

While I respect people who feel no need to revise anything they write (my boyfriend's that type- he turns in papers with random capitalizations and weird punctuation, and simply doesn't care if he gets marked off) I don't think it's a very practical approach. I'll go back sometimes after writing a poem only to find that I've repeated a word in two lines, and I never even realized I did it. My instinct is to change things like that, to make my poem the best it can be. People like my boyfriend tend to believe that if anything worthwhile is going to come out, it's going to come out on the first try. Now, I agree that over-editing will eventually obscure your original point... but even Allen Ginsberg, who swore he didn't edit any of his poems, revised some. I have an entire book that outlines the process of writing (and re-writing) Howl.

When I was little, I always loved those books where you read a page, and at the bottom, you have two options, and so on, until the entire story unfolds. I would read them obsessively to be sure I had exposed all the storylines- I always thought it was exciting to explore all the different options. (Incidentally, I thought the idea of online interactive stories were really cool, but I've never seen one that actually worked out or was very interesting.) Maybe writing a novel should be like that.

Not that I know the slightest thing about writing novels....

"we are all citizens of the womb before we subdivide
into shades and sexes- this side, that side" -Ani DiFranco

Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration
10 posted 2001-12-19 12:21 PM


been reading this in my email here and there - and was nodding my head with Ron's response (HI Ron!) - kinda... actually i disagree with most of these more than i agree with them... i think perhaps that as with everything else: there is no set formula for success - people are too diverse; their personalities, methodologies, and justifications different from one to the other...

starting from the beginning i saw this - turn anything in my life into a "discipline," and it might as well be forgotten... some say i'm stubborn like that...

C

[This message has been edited by Christopher (12-19-2001 12:22 AM).]

Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration
11 posted 2001-12-27 09:16 PM


quote:
6. False Starts are ok. Many writers have difficulty knowing where to start, finding the best place to begin, let alone how to begin or from whose perspective the story should be told. Figuring all this out, false starts, going back to the beginning, are all part of the process, so live with it.

After more time with this bouncing around in my head, I decided I had to come back and pull out my shovel.

First, I wanted to point out that he kind of argues with himself later:

quote:
23. There's More Than One Way of getting into a room. If you can't through the front door try the back door or climb through a window. Ie, see the text as a room, start at the end, in the middle if the beginning isn't working.

I read this as telling you that you don’t have to “live with it.” I see this as telling you if you don’t know where to begin, don’t begin – start writing in the middle or at the end…? Interpretation perhaps, I can see it reading different ways as well.

Still, this has been (and still is, though to a lesser degree) one of the banes of my writing process.

Getting stuck at the beginning.

I dimly recall a time back when we were going with the Fiction Workshop and someone (perhaps you Ron) made a remark about this very thing… Anyway – the impression I was left with, however it came about, was that sometimes it’s best to just slap the beginning down and rush on past it into the rest of the story. Opening any work (poetry, short stories, novels, movies, songs, you name it) - is the most important part of what you write. You have only so much time to grab your audience’s interest and spur them on to turning the page – or you’re toast, and they put it down to go watch some television.

The difficulty of this, naturally, is that there are so many ‘rules’ revolving around the aforementioned opening.

  1. You have to be interesting.

  2. …but, it has to be consistent with the rest of the story. If you begin a book in one voice, you’d better carry it through the rest of the book because you’ll confuse your audience.

  3. The beginning is traditionally the point where you begin to introduce the conflict and/or tensions of the story. Your characters may have a lot of interesting history, but starting a book by describing your hero’s mother’s brother’s friend’s car accident may not be the best route unless that’s the focus of your story or plays a major portion of it.

  4. Like mentioned above, sometimes you just don’t know where to begin – contrary to the popular opinion, it isn’t always best to start at the ‘beginning.’

  5. Emotionally, starting a book (at least for me) is similar to sky-diving: it’s an amazing amount of fun, and something you look forward to… but taking that first step off the plane requires a certain amount of will, courage, and insanity. You’re opening up a whole new ‘world’ with your first words, and you want to make sure they’re received well, no matter how nervous you might be at their presentation.



Of course there’s likely several hundred I’ve forgotten, but those are the ones I personally focus on for myself, the ones which affect me the most intimately as I write the beginning of something. I’m sure it’s different for every person, but to me, writing is not only necessary, but it’s a rush – not too dissimilar from jumping out of an airplane, with the exception that perhaps skydiving is a bit safer.

Anyway, the reason I’m digging into these, despite them not being mentioned in the beginning other than obliquely, is because I believe that understanding what may be the reason it’s so difficult to begin a story could very well contain the answer to defeating the problem. For example, “beginning at the beginning.”

Take Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time series (not too patiently waiting, BTW, after the revelations of #9… *scowl*) His ‘history’ spans ages, and yet he doesn’t go back to the very beginning to start his story, (although where he does start book one I’ve often thought of as a mistake, since he didn’t follow through with it and it was the only place where you get a direct telling of that time, which takes us into the arena of “confusing the audience.” It was dramatic, fun, and charged with meaning, but he didn’t follow it through, which still annoys me). Anyway, he chose a place in time (or it chose him, however you choose to view it) and named that the point where his story would be focused. The beauty of this, and the reason I’m so enamored of the series, is that just because he chose to focus his story on “this” time, he isn’t limited to telling about just it – he’s able to tell stories within stories within stories of times not of the one he’s writing about, while weaving it al together.

Still going with this series, in his first actual chapter (that man has prologues longer than some books on the market) he introduces conflict in the form of rising tension. I won’t go into it deeply for those who haven’t read the books and might want to, but what he employs in the first chapter is a heady blend of several different techniques, of which tension is the major one. He introduces his characters, giving you an idea of focus, and places them in a situation where danger is felt. Along with the introduction of some “fantastic” characters, this perceived danger introduces the tension – which will soon lead to The conflict.

One more thing – unlike Ron, I don’t write in a linear fashion – at least not anymore. I used to, and would get stuck sometimes too. For me it was more that I didn’t know how to inject foreshadowing without going straight ahead, then jumping back – and I do so hate to do that. (Which doesn’t mean I don’t edit, but I abhor the thought of demolishing a whole chapter – I’d rather pinch and pull, twist and prod if at all possible. Sometimes though, you just have to pull it out and start from scratch – but that’s a last resort for me, and one I don’t have to do very often.) Anyway, for example, the current novel I’m working on has several chapters written – of course they’re chapters 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 14, & 23. Now, some of them aren’t complete, their chapter numbers aren’t set in stone, and they will certainly be modified later on, but what they’ve done for me is a) allow me to keep writing even when I came to a place where I didn’t feel comfortable going on just yet and b) give me a chance to write about events ahead of time so that I can inject foreshadowing without having to jump back and try to weasel it in without mashing the surrounding prose like a soggy apple.

Oh well… here I am rambling – I’ll b interested to go more in depth on this one and hear more opinions – I am in consistent “edit mode” throughout the process of writing anything – whenever I look at something, I change it, tweak it. But the first chapter - that is always the biggest worry, the hardest to be content with… speaking of:

quote:
24. A Margin of 80-100% Excellence is an acceptable range to work within. Not every page is going to be as filled with quality as the next.

If you’re happy with 80%, you’ll put out 80%.

Satisfaction doesn’t create new worlds.

Dissatisfaction does.


Peace,

C



Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669
Michigan, US
12 posted 2001-12-31 03:20 PM


Okay, let's talk about revisions. But, uh, first let's cover some old ground.

hush, I have to admit I've never seen the editing process compared to shopping for a prom dress before. But it fits (no pun intended), and might even suggest the source of my writing style. Sans pressure from a shopping companion, I NEVER try on clothes in the store.

Chris, discipline in the context you've used it is just another word for habit. Writers don't follow a formula because it's a formula, but rather because they've discovered it works for them. It doesn't work all the time, it doesn't work in every instance, but it works often enough to become a useful habit. Craftsmanship is knowing the rules and how to apply them. Genius is knowing when to break them.

Getting stuck at the beginning is certainly a common problem. But it shouldn't be, and that's especially true of novel-length material. I think the obstacle surfaces for two reasons. One, we seek perfection and, two, we hope to actually use what we've written. Throw both of those ideas out the window and the beginnings become much easier.

Start your story exactly where you think it should start, at the point you feel most comfortable, and don't worry about grabbing the reader's attention quickly. I've talked to a lot of professional writers who insist on writing page after page after page of biographical material about their major characters or the history of their world, knowing full well that material will never be seen. To me, those should be your first two or three or six chapters, written not as just notes, but as "real" story. You know they won't be used, at least not in their entirety. They don't have to be perfect, they don't have to follow all or any of the rules of a good opening scene. Somewhere around the middle of chapter three or six, usually just after you've introduced some serious conflict, you'll discover your real beginning, the one your readers will eventually see. Good stories never begin at the beginning, but rather in media res, literally "in the middle of things." That doesn't mean, however, that writers can't begin writing at the beginning. Doing so provides the comfort of those long biographical sketches, but more importantly, it also provides freedom from expecting perfection.

BTW, Robert Jordan and Terry Goodkind are two fantasy authors I highly recommend for anyone interested in exploring the writing process. Not because they're especially good, because I don't think either of them are, but rather because both are new and have written a huge volume of work in a fairly short time span. It's easy, I think, with both of these writers to really see the development of their skills over the course of what is essentially the same story lines. Jordan and Goodkind both made major boners in their early work, some of which you pointed out, Chris, and both have come a long way since those beginnings. Reading them with a critical eye can be a valuable learning experience. (You can see more dramatic improvements in Goodkind, I think, mostly because he had farther to go. Another fantasy writer who has evolved over the course of the same story is Terry Brooks. The improvements are more subtle, because Brooks was already a damn good writer when he first wrote about the Sword of Shannara 25 years ago, but his most recent book describes the same things with much more skill.)

A lot of writers work in a non-linear fashion like you do, Chris, and I think for much the same reasons. They essentially write the set pieces first, then fill in the holes.

For those confused by the terminology, a set piece is little more than a pivotal or climatic point. All stories, of course, are composed of scenes, but not all scenes are equally important. (Not incidentally, Chris, that's where Ihimaera's 80 percent rule might make sense.) Most of the scenes you write are "building" scenes. For example, in the Star Wars trilogy, there are countless scenes building towards the whispered and sudden "I love you" by the Princess to Han Solo. That's a set piece, something the writer set the audience to fully expect and anticipate. It's certainly not the end of the story, but it's both pivotal and climatic. Done well, and Lucas is a consummate storyteller, a set piece will send chills up the reader's back - even when expected.

Let's simplistically graph a series of scenes:

1 2 3 4 5 6b 7b A 9 10 11 12c B 14

The letters represent set pieces, and the numbers represent scenes that build toward them. So we have 7 building scenes to reach the set piece labeled A. Notice how scenes 6 and 7 have subscripts of b? That's because we need to start building up to set piece B before we give the readers A. If we don't give them something further to anticipate, our first set piece can too easily become the end of the book for them. In reality, this is a very simplistic representation of a graph that can become very, very complex. For example, scene 5 above might have a sub g, building towards a set piece half way through the story (foreshadowing), and 6b might actually be 6bc, building toward more than one set-piece. And our set piece A, if well written, will almost certainly include a subscript for a future set piece, too. Robert Jordan's greatest strength, accounting for the richness of his books, is his ability to weave a vast tapestry of interlocked set pieces together.

The set pieces largely determine the course, or plot, of your story (though they often have as much to do with characterization as with plot). The building scenes, our numerical scenes, represent the pace of your story. If you have too many building scenes (or ineffective ones), the story seems to drag and take forever, even if there seems to be a lot happening. If you have too few building scenes, there's not enough anticipation and your carefully crafted set pieces fall flat.

Recognizing the importance of the set pieces, a lot of writers will pen them first and then go back and write the building scenes. It makes a lot of sense, as Christopher suggested, both because the foreshadowing is more accurate and because the writer can more easily control the pace of the story.

As much as it makes sense, however, it simply doesn't work well for me. I long ago discovered that I'm a reader first and a writer second. The story has to "unfold" for me, much as it does for the reader, or I lose interest. I've found that if I write a set piece out of sequence, everything prior to that pivotal point in the story becomes boring. As a reader, I savor the anticipation of building to a set piece. As a writer, I find I'm really no different. Without that sense of anticipation, writing becomes too mechanical. So, I write in linear mode and try to enjoy the story.

That's not to suggest, however, that I don't "know" my set pieces. I do. Intimately so. I just keep them in my head instead of on paper, usually pushed a little to one side so they don't distract me too much.

(Not incidentally, I think the very definition of a "false start" is one that doesn't lead to a suitable set piece. A set piece has to produce chills. If you write twenty scenes building to a pivotal point and then find the set piece DULL, you done got yourself a false start. Obviously, I'm in far greater danger of that than someone who writes the set pieces first.)

Not only do I write linearly, I also edit as I write. Every scene is as "finished" as I can make it before I move to the next scene. The love scene I posted from my novel is my concept of a first draft. I certainly don't suggest that for most people, and there are times when I heartily wish I could just write "fast and furious," but I have again found that doesn't work well for me. And for much the same reasons. As long as I'm still working on a scene, I'm an absorbed reader and can enjoy the story. The minute I write the next scene, however, I find it difficult to return to earlier scenes to edit. So, for me, a scene has to be "done" before I start the next.

Which brings us full circle, back to #6 on the list and the reason I think it needs to be more deeply explored to be truly useful. This is also, I hope, where I can tie together what seems like a lot of disparate themes in this post. False starts, beginning the story where the writer is comfortable, Robert Jordan, and set pieces really do have something in common.  

Revision is a necessary evil. As Ihimaera suggests, live with it. But one should remember that "necessary" and "evil" are two words, and as with all things, there is a TIME to revise. And, I think, a time to not.

My novel is approaching the quarter-million-word mark, and the first two chapters are pretty much garbage. The character has changed, the emphasis has shifted, and like Jordan and Goodkind, my own skills have improved just through simple practice. I have to admit I have been sorely tempted, in my weaker moments, to go back and revise those early chapters. There is a definite feeling of discomfort every time I see them.

But my story, at a quarter million words, is less than twenty percent told. It's going to continue to evolve, and I'd like to think another million words of practice will continue to induce improvements in me, too. Any changes I make to my beginnings today will, again, seem inadequate by the time I reach The End. And I'll just have to do it over.

Over the years, I've sat in classes with a lot of unpublished writers. Probably hundreds. And the one thing many of them have in common is they never "quite" finish a novel, but instead get stuck in a revolving door of revisions. They change A to match B. Then they have to change B to match C, which means going back to change A again. They understandably lose all enthusiasm for the STORY long before they ever reach Z. After talking to a lot of these fledgling writers, I'm convinced many of them use revision to avoid writing. If going back and tearing apart your own work is hard (and it is), it is still much easier than creating something completely new from scratch. And it sure requires a lot less courage.

I believe revision should be delayed until you have a beginning, a middle, an end, and all the pieces that tie them together. A first draft. Trying to correct false starts too early, I think, just gives you different false starts, resulting in a reiterative descent into futility. Write the story. The whole story. It's still a first draft, still fluid, but only when you have the whole can you hope to successfully dissect it into its parts.

Revision is a necessary evil. Two words. It's always necessary, at least for us mere mortals, but it only becomes evil when it's an excuse to not write.

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

13 posted 2002-01-14 07:19 AM


Sheesh.

I go offline for a month and come back to this? COOL! A debate in the English forum!

Well..if it's any consolation - my classmates and I did argue with the guy lol.

In fact, one lady went so far as to assign him the label of a fatherless child at one point...when he openly stated her story was dry or something...

I disagree myself on some points, shrug...but one thing the guy has that we all don't - ten or so novels published and internationally recognised. I respect him.

Haven't read the whole thread - but will do soon...

K

Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration
14 posted 2002-01-14 07:21 AM


Ron - I agree with you on discipline... it was merely my way of reminding everyone that I try to be a pain as much as possible. While perhaps less so than some, I too have a certain amount of 'discipline' when related to my writing (though to few other things in my life). I just don't know if the word fits, as I'm thinking about it right now. (You know, I never realized how much I relied on MS Word to do simple little things like autmatically capitilazing the word "I" or the first word of a sentence until I started writing this...) Anyway - even 'habit' doesn't really fit... I certainly see where you're coming from, and again, it may be argued... but with the process of growth - which must be continual - the 'habits' will change, the discipline be broken... I don't know. I'll have to think about this some more, because it's not sitting right in my brain for some reason right now...

And again - I agree with you Ron. And again, simply a matter of terminology. When you suggest writing several chapters [in order to find the beginning], I read that as simply developing an outline. It comes somewhat under the same heading except that with an outline, you're placing many/most/all of your set pieces before you even begin writing.

When I first started writing, I wrote in as linear a fashion as you can imagine. I started at the beginning (the one I percieved from the original idea without even considering history, etc.). I wrote what I thought, inserted things as I went along, then concluded it with what I felt best. Needless to say (from examples of my old writing) this was a mucho bad way to go about things for me. I left out important things, inserted actions and dialogue that not only were not interesting, but were also not important. And finally, it was like reading a child's rendition of their day: full of gaps, with plenty of imagination but few connections.

The worst part was that I didn't realize this was happening - or that there was a better way of doing it. Not so ironically, it was when I started hanging around here that I realized that / how I could improve. My process has undergone many changes since then, and likely will continue to do so - perhaps though, reading what has consumed my off-work time lately, I have come to a point where I can actually start writing.

It started, actually, with a dream I had. It was one of those few, fairly coherent dreams that I remembered the next morning. I wrote it down, and left I there for a while to simmer in my brain. This was the beginning of my ""outline." Of course not everything was in there - for one, I like to be flexible, make allowances for shifts in perception or logic. Secondly, it was just a dream, and needed a lot of gaps filled. So that's where I went back and started writing my "first few chapters..." After a fashion - it's more like a stream of consciousness thing for me at that point - my first several chapters aren't even really that so much as they are simply musings. I bypass most of the scenery (except to note location), I leave out flowery prose, articles, nuances (other than the ones which I want to specifically develop as part of a person's charater), etc., etc. What I end up with is a half-donze to a dozen pages that tell the entirety of a story - kind of a mangled synopsis if you will.

Next step is to start some preliminary character development. I write out the naes of the ones I already know, leaving the side players for later. I insert general descriptions, prominent character traits, motivatoins, etc. If an idea strikes me, I may also mention certain byplays in which they will be involved in, their relation to other characters, etc. This is the part where I really start to get to know the people who will be populating my story. Without a doubt, they will grow and change as the story progresses, and will also undoubtedly take me by surprise from time to time, but at least I'll know how they fit in the general paradigm, and have an idea how to use them.

THEN - I start writing.

Should probably do that with my replies as well, huh? It's late, I can't sleep. Ignore me. Basically all my rambling above says something similar to what you did Ron, though I just go a bit further than the first few chapters.

Interestingly enough, I disagree on the next sub-topic. Well, a little. Without a doubt (and I don't disagree that neither are really good authors - both, while good at presenting images - write fairly simplisticaly. Specifically speaking, their prose. I have yet to read anything  - though Goodkind's come close - that's sent chills down my spine. IT comes, it's cool, it passes. Nothign out of either of the books sticks in my mind as particularly poignant... somethign I'm waiting to see.)... grr - tangents, always tangents... Without a doubt, they have both improved over the course of their fairly brief careers (both of which, I think, are approaching ten years...?). However, I think a) Jordan's improvement is much greater than Goodkind's, and b) Goodkind's wasn't all that great until recently. If you read from the beginning to the most recent, I see Goodkind as actually having devolved there for a while. He started losing track of what he was writing about - used pieces that should have only been a minor portion as major pieces, and generally bounced the focus off the wrong walls. Where his first books kept fairly - if simply - to the point, some of the ones following (specifically 5 & 6, though 3 was nearly as bad) were almost insulting in a way. To his credit (or my taste) the most recent two - Faith of the Fallen, and Pillars of Creation - are showing improvement again... though he made a couple of large boo-boos in FoF.

quote:
I believe revision should be delayed until you have a beginning, a middle, an end, and all the pieces that tie them together. A first draft. Trying to correct false starts too early, I think, just gives you different false starts, resulting in a reiterative descent into futility. Write the story. The whole story. It's still a first draft, still fluid, but only when you have the whole can you hope to successfully dissect it into its parts.
Another disagreement. Again, partially. IF it's used as a way to not write - it's mucho bad! BUT - there can also be much benefit from this as well.

Consider that you're in chapter fifteen, and you find yourself unhappy with chapter one - you leave it as such. Fine and good - but that disatisfaction is still there! I can't hack that - it's like seeing a piece of garbage on the sidewalk every day and never picking it up! It would drive me NUTS!!! LOL And, from experience, I've found that you can learn things by revising - as I mentioned, I am in constant revision. That doesn't mean I don't write. I do - a lot - but I also am constantly going back through what I wrote before, and what was recently written - tightening up the prose (always a challenge) and matching up the subsets leading to set pieces. It's a good way to insert this cool idea in chapter seven, and start building up to it in chapter four.

quote:
21. Safeguard the story and your characters. Ultimately you, and only you, are responsible for your own work. Listen to what other people have to say, evaluate it but make your own decisions about whether the comments of others has validity or not.
Due to a recent debate (last night) I want to point out that this one can be particularly difficult to follow, though I believe it makes complete sense.

Those reading are part of your audience - and if, as with me, your goal is to be published, you certainly need to have your target audience interested and approving. Yet when they tell you that they don't really care for something that you not only believe needs to be in there to tell the story, but that, even after considering their point of view, you still like... it's tough!!! Part of me wants to go back and modify it, and the other part wants to fire my "critic!"

Teach me to let people talk me into showing them my work pre-completion.

Peace

C

Post A Reply Post New Topic ⇧ top of page ⇧ Go to Previous / Newer Topic Back to Topic List Go to Next / Older Topic
All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format.
navwin » Main Forums » English Workshop » Whenever things get tough - tips for the novelist.

Passions in Poetry | pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums | 100 Best Poems

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary