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Cliches |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA 
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Again, I will ask the question: How do we avoid using cliche in our work? and to follow-up, is it sometimes unavoidable?? I'd like to have some UN-cliche like answers to this one ("read more poetry" is a good example of an answer that I've already heard, thank you. . . ) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. [This message has been edited by Sven (edited 06-15-2001).] |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Why not post a verse here (that you think has some cliches) and we'll discuss that? Personally, I use a Thesaurus to find new words to use... |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Theasurus...make compound words...word/phrase reversal...READ MORE MODERN poetry heh...take a creative writing class..  K |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
Those are good, but I'm wondering if there are really any ideas out there that no one has heard of before. . . and if we're just using the same OLD things in different ways. . . we're not avoiding cliches, we're just making them look different. . . Here's another thing, what's cliche to you might not be cliche to me. . . if I've never heard of it, for whatever reason, I might feel that I've come up with something new. . . but, when you see it, you're quick to point out that it's full of cliches, how do we avoid this??? --------------------------------------------------------------- To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Can someone just all of a sudden say they're going to write poetry without reading any? And if you've read, you should have seen some phrases that were used again and again. Phrases like 'good as gold'....'light as air'...'good as new'... Bring a poem here that has has been critized as being cliched and let's see what we can do with it. |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
I really don't have any desire to do that right now. . . I'm just trying to figure out how I'm supposed to write without using cliches, even when the subject that I write most about, which is love and romance, is the biggest cliche of all. . . millions of phrases and poems have been written on the subject, what makes some better than others?? The audience that you write them for? The thoughts and feelings that go into the writing of it? What??? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
The words. Poetry isn't made with ideas, it's made with words. --I didn't say that by the way. Brad |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Did you see my thread on similes???? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Looking at the definition of cliche (given below), I see some reason for confusion. I mean something a little bit different when I use the word anyway. I do not usually mean the complete first definition: A trite or overused expression or idea --I mean the first part. Ideas, in a general sense, are not cliches. I would also emphasize the important of expression. 'Love' is not a cliche, the way it is so often used is -- Love is like a red rose; I have love and lost and it is better to have loved or it is better to have not to loved. --I would consider both these phrasings as cliched. Notice how the words are used in ways that most of us have read before. Can you write about 'the idea' and write about it in a new and interesting way? I think you can but it's a lot more difficult the more common 'the idea' is. Actually, if the words are different, the idea is to. --On the other hand, if all feelings are unique (an infinite gradation), then the trick is to get to that fine point of what you actually feel, to show that in the writing, and avoid generalizing your feelings through language. These synonyms are most apt: platitude, truism These nouns denote an expression or idea that has lost its originality or force through overuse. Sven, Again, you ask how do you know? Again, you ask how do you know without reading, listening to the world around you? Read your own poem. If you can see another individual saying the same thing, then you know. And if it feels right, if it feels like you've hit on something new, some insight, some phrasing that has exploded before you, made you a different person, made you see the world in a way that you hadn't before, who cares what other people say. Brad |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
quote: Well Brad, if I'm someone who is submitting a poem to a literary magazine or something of that nature because I'd like it to be published, then I care what the editor or head of that publication has to say when they either reject or accept my poem. . . and if they're telling me that my work or my idea is cliche, then I care very much what they have to say. . . It's been said (not by me) that we don't write from emotion. . . and to that I would say, if we don't write from emotion, what do we write from? Or, do we write with emotion and from the heart?? I know that the best way to avoid cliche is to read, read, read and look, look, look, and to see what other people have done and learn from the good examples and don't fall into the pitfalls of the bad examples. But, what makes something that isn't cliche to me cliche to someone else? Just because they've heard and read it so many times and I haven't?? True, there are cliches that are almost universal (love is like a red, red rose) but, aren't there also cliches that aren't as universal but are still considered cliche?? It's cliche to say that love is like a red, red rose. . . but, is it cliche to say that a red, red rose is like love?? Does the fact that I changed the words around make the phrase any less cliche? Probably not, if, as you said, it's the idea that's cliche and not the words. Is it cliche to say that love is like a yellow, yellow rose?? Why not? Isn't it the same idea? Comparing love to a flower?? I guess I'm having a lot of difficulty with this. . . I'm not really sure why. . . probably because I'm not getting any straight answers on how to avoid cliche, whether it's inevitable that we'll use cliche in our work, and when and if we do use cliche in our work, why some people get so bent out of shape about it? Thanks. . . -------------------------------------------------------------------- To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
There are many different kinds of clichés, and I think generalizations, without addressing the differences, will get you into trouble. Sharon mentioned what many feel to the be the "worst" type of cliché - hackneyed phrases. The first time someone wrote, "Good as gold," the phrase was probably very effective. It created an image and the reader immediately saw something gold in their mind, which then led them to the concept of good. The concept was made stronger, more REAL, to the reader because of the imagery. That's why we use imagery, after all. It adds power to simple words. By the time "good as gold" became so pervasive as to almost become a part of the language, it had lost all its imagery. When you hear the phrase today you don't visualize gold at all, but immediately leap to good. The human mind, in following the same path too many times, quickly learns to ignore the path and instead leap directly to the conclusion. And the conclusion loses its power. A hackneyed phrase is a cliché because it no longer provokes thought. Many writers learn to "recycle" hackneyed phrases, perhaps with a little mental stretching or with that thesaurus someone mentioned. If his promise is as "good as gold," then maybe we can call it a "golden promise." Or perhaps we'll write "his word was a good as gold, but far less malleable." Either of these, at least to some extent, restores the imagery and increase the power. They encourage the reader to think, rather than simply leap to the destination where we are leading them. These, however, often lead to a different kind of cliché, and perhaps the most dangerous for writers - because the images we paint can become just as hackneyed as the phrases we use to paint them. The pregnant woman with the inner glow can be described with thoroughly original words and still be a cliché. The words are new, but the image being painted is not. The reader immediately bypasses the path and arrives at the intended destination, "pregnancy is sacred," without experiencing any real truth. The reader doesn't have to think, just accept. No power. The hackneyed image then extends itself to the hackneyed scene, and even the most experienced writers find themselves falling into this trap. The hero riding into the sunset. The dark and preternaturally silent night of the horror story. The garden, replete with primrose path, of the love story. Unlike phrases and imagery, the hackneyed scene does provide value and is often used to set mood. But, like phrases and imagery, this cliché rarely encourages the reader to really think, to really imagine, to really feel. There is no power. Themes can also become hackneyed, or as Sven mentioned, it's often said that love and romance is the biggest cliché of all. Boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl - it's the oldest story known to man. But, in truth, there are only a limited number of plots (ranging from about three score to a hundred, depending on your authority), and we've been reworking those for a few thousand years. Every single story Shakespeare wrote was about Love (though not necessarily about romance), yet could hardly be called trite or hackneyed. As with lesser clichés, the key lies in the path followed. Clichés are "bad" because a reader reaches the destination, the conclusion, with no real guidance from the writer. Instead of the author giving directions to a new and exciting place, she simply tells the reader to go somewhere they've already been. There's not much fun in that. And, certainly, no power. |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Sven...I'm studying for exams right now - but will be back soon to give you some more indepth thoughts... listen to Sharon, Brad and Ron..they be the three wise people heh. K |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Oops. I was composing while, apparently, Brad and Sven were posting and completely missed their latest contributions until I returned (thanks to Kamla's post). Not a lot of time, but I would like to address a couple of the points raised. Sven, I agree with Brad's statement, "If you can see another individual saying the same thing, then you know (it's a cliché)". I might also add that if your words come too easily, it's probably either a cliché or you just weren't saying anything important. If what you have to say is unique, then the descriptions you use have to be equally unique - and that is damn hard work. Beyond that, though, I think the "best" way to avoid cliché is the one you apparently don't want to hear - read deeply and extensively. quote: Remember, the power you have as a writer comes from forcing the reader to think as you guide them along a path leading to your destination. Clichés make the trip too easy and the conclusion too simple, and the people who complain the loudest are the ones willing - even eager - to do their share of the hard work. They want you to make them think. They insist upon it. But not everyone is willing to work so hard. A cliché isn't a point on a line, but rather is a continuum. Where you fall on that line will be a result of your experience, and where you want to fall on that line will be determined by your audience. If you write greeting cards for a living, you'll probably be using a LOT of clichés - because that's what your audience demands. If you want critical acclaim and literary honors, you'll want to avoid ANY cliché - because you know your audience is very discerning and very picky, and originality is paramount. Most of us, I believe, fall somewhere between these two extremes. I often think "pop" culture is defined as the statistical mean between really hard work and absolutely no work. If you make your audience work TOO hard, you'll lose all but a select few. If you allow your audience NOTHING to do, well, I honestly believe you have no audience left. The "pop" writers are able to push the envelope, making their audience work harder than they wanted but not harder than they were able. The "great" writers do much the same, but make their audience WANT to work harder in the future. |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
Thank you everyone for your opinions and replies. . . I'm really having a great deal of difficulty with this, and have been struggling with it for a long time. . . I look forward to reading more of your opinions and thoughts. . . -------------------------------------------------------------- To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I was reading through my own post -- good God, how did I miss some of those mistakes? I know, I know, nobody's perfect but 'to have not to loved'? On the other hand, I suppose that's one way to avoid cliche -- simply write complete nonsense and claim some esoteric meaning.  With, of course, the added 'nobody understands me' victimization line. Feeling very depressed at the moment. Brad |
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furlong Member
since 2001-04-08
Posts 129 |
Humm good discussion. A quick look at cliches and one aspect of (online) critical approaches to them. Identifying and focussing on elements, whether they be, phrases, images or themes and labelling them cliche may be quite valid and indeed helpful as part of the process of trying to identify why a particular piece of writing fails to inspire or grab a reader's intention. Sometimes however I've noticed (and this seems to be especially true of online critics who I suspect have a greater tendency to shoot from the hip!) that reviewers often seize on a particular word or phrase or image and yell cliche while all along the necessary originality, spark, explosion, whatever lies in a wider appreciation of the piece. You might say at this point, with some justification perhaps, that if a reader is so "attracted" to the cliched phrase to the exclusion of all else then the poem has clearly failed. All I would say is that I'm sure there are plenty of cliche junkies roaming the internet forums who pounce delightedly on the slightest whiff of overuse and whirr into action. You see, Sven, it's such an easy target. Even the most inept critic can recognise that "the coin burned a hole in my pocket" contains a cliche (or does it?...lol..see later). And then it's tempting to read and look no further - cliche = condemnation. Context is so important, a holistic approach essential. Even Brad (depressed or not ) will concede that red roses and beaches can feature in a non-cliched piece - maybe not sunsets and stars though that’s pushing it a bit  .Take this poem an early piece by one of my favourite poets Simon Armitage: http://www.btinternet.com/~neil.craigsmith/armo/armo_pages/books/zoom_homepage.htm the poem is called "Ten Pence Story" is it not riddled with cliche? And many many of his other poems contain myriad well-known and "overused" phrases which nevertheless are woven into the verse and story in such a way that they become an unobtrusive part of his "voice" and actually add to the value of the work (imho of course!). The point of all this waffle I've just given you? Well, I guess what I'm saying is that perhaps we should worry less about cliches in the building blocks or elements of a poem and more about whether the totality "works". Whether in fact originality and power is achieved in one way or another in the whole DESPITE the use of familiar components. This is interesting. F [This message has been edited by furlong (edited 06-21-2001).] |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
You've made some great points Furlong. . . thanks for jumping in with them. . . I feel that you're right. . . there are some out there who seem to think that it's their job to point out every cliche in the book without looking at the effect that the total poem has as a whole. . . just becuase a poem has a cliche in it doesn't mean that it's a bad poem, does it?? True, as writers, we should strive to give the reader something to enjoy, but. . . how far do we have to go?? I think that Ron covered that very well in his earlier comment. . . Thank you. . . --------------------------------------------------------------- To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. |
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furlong Member
since 2001-04-08
Posts 129 |
"just becuase a poem has a cliche in it doesn't mean that it's a bad poem, does it??" is there such a thing as a "bad" poem? ... lol..don't get me started on that! cliche i believe derives from the french "clicher" literally "stamped in metal", sterotyped. So, some phrase or word or clause or sentence which when iterated instantly provokes the same associations in many different readers i.e. a fixed and rigid and unmemorable unoriginal reaction. the point i was trying to make was that the bare words of themselves dont necessarily lead immediately to such a reaction, context is important. but generally speaking i'd say that once a reader derives the "usual" meaning from a phrase or word AND LOOKS NO FURTHER then yes, the poet has "lost" and the piece as a whole will be weakened. is that any clearer? ... lol F [This message has been edited by furlong (edited 06-28-2001).] |
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Romy Senior Member
since 2000-05-28
Posts 1170Plantation, Florida |
Hi, I think this is a very interesting subject. My very first post here included several cliches. It's titled "The Slap". The cliche that stood out and that was commented on the most, was "walking on eggshells". I have yet to figure out how to do without this particular cliche in my poem. I almost feel that the line is what the poem is based on...what the cliche means to me is the reason for writing the poem. How can tired, overused cliches still be put into a poem and still allow the poem to be original? I have never changed the poem because I cannot find a way to do without this cliche! Debbie [This message has been edited by Romy (edited 06-28-2001).] |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Romy...did your poem rhyme? If not, why don't you try to find another way to say 'walking on eggshells'? Even if it's just a substitute for walking...stepping on, crunching, breaking eggshells...even that makes a difference... Svenny - how you feeling about all this? Any progress? K |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
Yes Sevvey, much progress indeed. . . thanks to everyone for their ideas and their insight. ... ----------------------------------------------------------- To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. |
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Romy Senior Member
since 2000-05-28
Posts 1170Plantation, Florida |
Hi Severn, I posted it in CA a long time ago, I think I might try re-writing it sometime and posting it in there again. The questions and answers here about cliches interest me, I think I'm going to do a little more research on the subject. Thanks! Debbie |
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