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Passions in Poetry

Join The Portland Peaceful Response Coalition Peace and Justice Rally October 3rd!

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Mistletoe Angel
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0 posted 09-06-2004 04:59 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Hello! This is your fellow Mistletoe Angel speaking out to all you fellow poets for peace and justice, not only for those of you across the Pacific Northwest but to all!



The Portland Peaceful Response Coalition has banded to stand in solidarity with all victims of violence, in the U.S., the Mideast, and throughout the world.

Being the Junior Head of this wonderful campaign, it is my mission to get our voice out to every community, regardless of political or religious differences, ethnic background, gender or age. This message is for all who believe in a non-violent approach to peace and justice worldwide.

Along with our weekly press releases and rallies at Pioneer Courthouse Square each Friday at 5 P.M, we together express our rich and colorful doctrines and beliefs in peace and justice, and through our fellowship, we've created an ever-growing movement in Portland.

Whether thaumaturgy, serendipity or just being in the right place at the right time, our voices have reached the ears of many, which have now come together to this climatic event, which may very well is destined to be one of the largest rallies in Portland history.

So, please, join us at our Rally & March for Peace & Justice, Sunday October 3rd at 2 P.M, on the North Park Blocks at NW 8th and Everett in downtown Portland.

We will be marching to end the wars and occupations in Iraq, Afghanistan and the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Marching for the increased funding of health care, job creation, housing and education and decreased funding of our military, which would go to veteran health coverage and first aid rather than warfare. Marching to defend civil liberties and democracy which we have fought so hard to achieve for years, and nurture from the time our honorable Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. inspired us all and the Civil Rights Movement, and which to this very day we are still fighting to defend.

I have said before I would do everything I can to help promote the peace and justice movement and work for a change of leadership come November. Consider this the climatic point of keeping my word!

So, to all of you out there, I hope to see some of you, most likely Passions poets of the Northwest, come October 3rd, and, peace, love and harmony to you all!

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton
.
.
.
Join us for what may be a historic local event. If you have any questions or are interested to make a contribution, feel free to contact the following:

**********************************************

Mistletoe Angel: noahandco@hotmail.com
Official Web-site: http://www.pprc-news.org/

**********************************************


The following have volunteered to this event:

Peace and Justice Works Iraq Affinity Group
Women in Black
Women's International League for Peace and Freedom
Portland Labor for Peace and Justice
Portland Catholic Workers
Oregon Physicians for Social Responsibility
Living Earth
Portland Solidarity
Love Makes A Family
Peace Justice and Environment Committee of the Portland Mennonite Church
Oregon PeaceWorks
East Timor Action Network of Portland
Portland Buddhist Peace Fellowship
Americans United for Palestinian Human Rights
Peace Action Group of the First Unitarian Church
Jews for Global Justice
St. Francis of Assisi Catholic Church
War Resisters League of Portland
North Coast Peace Coalition
Reedwood Friends Church Peace and Social Concerns Committee
Portland Area Rethinking Schools
Justice for Mumia Coalition
Palestine Children's Welfare Fund
Portland Alliance
National Organization for Women Portland Chapter
Rainbow Coalition of Portland, Oregon
Christ the Healer- United Church for Christ
Families for Peace
American Friends Service Committee
Sisters of the Road
St. Andrew Catholic Church Peace and Social Concerns Committee of the Multnomah Meetings of Friends (Quakers)
Radical Women
Freedom Socialist Party

And our endorsers include:

Veterans for Peace Chapter 72
Northwest Veterans for Peace
Board of Peace and Social Concerns of Northwest Yearly Meeting of Friends
PSU Progressive Student Union
PSU Green Party
Friends of Sabeel-North America
Portland Radical Cheerleaders Local #2
Oregon Wildlife Federation
Back to the WALL
FiretheLiar.com
National Lawyers Guild
NW Constitutional Rights Center
Left Turn-Portland Collective
Eugene Justice Not War
Send Sardo To Salem Committee

**********************************************

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

[This message has been edited by Mistletoe Angel (09-06-2004 08:11 PM).]

Midnitesun
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1 posted 09-07-2004 07:13 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

I'll be there, Noah. Way to go, you are really energizing an entire community to seek non-violent solutions to worldwide problems. Proud of ya, dear poet friend.
Mistletoe Angel
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2 posted 09-08-2004 12:19 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Awwwwwww, thanks so very much, dearest friend! (angel friendship hugs)



I really had nothing to do in starting the coalition to begin with, but on this particular rally, the biggest thing this coalition has ever done, I've been cited by founder William Seaman as a junior champion in getting this thing promoted. I have gotten No on Amendment 36 involved, OSPIRG, WASHPIRG and CALPIRG involved, the local Kerry-Edwards campaign involved, and am looking to get many others as possible in this as well. I want to get the Green and Libertarian parties onto this too.



Though I haven't been here the last few months as much as I've wanted to, I have not rested on my laurels. Each day I do my homework and am just as involved as I was since the Bush Administration declared war on Iraq about a year and a half ago.



I understand there are some supporters of Bush here, and I know who many of them are and many know what I believe, and have no intention whatsoever to bother any of them. I'm just doing my job, and speaking my voice, and I believe the true voice of peace, freedom and justice, in my heart, and conscience, comes out of the continuing non-violent buildings of foreign relations and goodwill, not in making war a foreign policy.

I've been getting a lot of special treatment because I'm the youngest protester in the weekly Friday rally and this has made me the Junior Head in this campaign. In addition, they ask me to speak quite often weekly before each march. Last time I spoke, honoring all the protesters in New York City, and giving out special honors to those defending Johnny Cash's good name at Sotheby's where the GOP and the Mesh Association were with 154 multinationals capitalizing on his name when in fact Cash was never a Republican nor a Democrat, he simply was an advocate of silent politics for the downtrodden and untouchable, to Code Pink for their Shut-up-a-thon at Fox news headquarters, and to Billionaires for Bush for their three-mile Unemployment Line.



This nation has spoken. By almost a 2-to-1 majority, Americans believe America is heading in the wrong direction. This consistent fact tells me that America not only wants change, it needs change, and I wouldn't have it any other way in marching for change.

And I know some may argue back and say Bush tends to have the upper hand in the polls. Whether it's because of Kerry's lukewarm likeability rating or the GOP or Swift Boat Veterans for Truth successfully able to get their deceiving sound-bytes across, behind these polls, a majority are still unhappy with Bush.

I beam with optimism. I beam with confidence. I beam with the purified hope we can stop beating ourselves up and at least make some progress with a refreshed new leadership.

believe me, it is indeed quite a hard thing to do mentally voting for Kerry, who is often described as the lesser trouble, because I too am concerned Kerry would not end this senseless war like he should immediately, he doesn't strike me as a more empassioned or determined leader, and I'd very much rather vote for Cobb whose politics are the most refreshing of all. But believing that Bush is dangerous for our government and the majority are yearning for change, my hands may be tied, but I am willing to make this sacrifice for those 2/3 wanting at least some sort of change.

Then, in fulfilling the wishes of David Cobb, I will take the stand for the truest party and work to help expand and enfranchise more Greens into the political landscape and hopefully we can adapt a new ballot system by 2008 that lets us choose-and-rank our candidates, by first favorite, second and third so the people win, as democracy is the people's government, and right now, the people have little role in the government.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

James_A_Fraser
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3 posted 09-08-2004 09:46 AM       View Profile for James_A_Fraser   Email James_A_Fraser   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for James_A_Fraser

We will be marching to end the wars and occupations in Iraq, Afghanistan and the West Bank and Gaza Strip.


In other words, you will be marching in support of the people who did this: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/sep2004/russ-s04.shtml

Sorry, can't make it.



~~J

Ratleader
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4 posted 09-08-2004 10:04 AM       View Profile for Ratleader   Email Ratleader   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ratleader's Home Page   View IP for Ratleader

Be sure you hold your big demonstration on 9/11, so people will be sure which side you're on.

~~(¸¸¸¸ºº>   ~~(¸¸¸¸ºº>  ~~(¸¸ ¸¸ºº>    ~~~(¸¸ER¸¸ºº>
______________Ratleader______________

Mistletoe Angel
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5 posted 09-08-2004 02:54 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Look, I don't want to begin a heated debate here. I'm just making an announcement, and I don't expect at all everyone will be attending. I'm just providing the opportunity for those like Midnitesun who want to attend!

Besides, I don't see what those Chechen tragedies have anything to do with this argument. I mourn those 335+ who have tragically been killed there, half of them children, and my prayers go out to their families and to the hundreds of others who remain missing or injured.

Anyway, we began forming this rally well before the Chechnya tragedy. We're against all violence...period.

And we know better than to have a demonstration on 9/11. Each September 11th since the tragic day in 2001, we have mourned for the losses of approximately 3,000 innocent civilians and their families. We respect and honor these victims and their families, and don't want to add to the noise on this sensitive day.

September 11th was living proof that hindsight is not always 20/20. We understand some believe war is a foreign policy. We don't. We believe the war on terror is just like the war on drugs, or it's just like handling the problem with a hornet's nest. If you take it down gently, it's less likely the hornets will sting, but if you beat it with a baseball bat, they're certain to sting you.

In other words, this senseless war is only inciting terrorist instincts and encouraging violence. We believe in supporting our troops by bringing them home, and working again to resolve the problem just as we do with a beehive, handle the issue with gentle, safe precautions. Talk with them, strengthen international ties and communities, educate our children in respecting the differences of other cultures, etc.

I'd be willing to discuss this more in the Lounge or The Alley. However, this is Announcements and I am not interested in debating who's on whose side here.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

James_A_Fraser
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6 posted 09-08-2004 03:27 PM       View Profile for James_A_Fraser   Email James_A_Fraser   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for James_A_Fraser

They were murdered -- some of them raped on video beforehand, some with their genitals attached to blasting caps which were set off -- also on tape, and all within earshot of their parents.... by the very people your demonstration is supporting, the very people our war is trying to wipe out. I find that highly offensive, and I resent our little poetry site being used for such obscenity.

These people want us dead -- the only policy that has caused them to attack us, is our policy of being alive. The only way to stop them is to kill them before they kill us. I'm sorry if you are unable to comprehend that fact, but it's a fact anyhow. I don't like it either, but that's the way things are.



~~J
Ron
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7 posted 09-08-2004 05:01 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

James, being against the state execution of Timothy McVeigh doesn't automatically mean someone promotes bombing big buildings and killing people. It's not unreasonable to think that people like McVeigh need to be stopped, yet still believe that taking human life is never justified. Are you willing to drop a nuclear bomb on Cuba? If not, should we then assume you support Castro?

You're trying to make connections that simply don't exist.
Cperazzi
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8 posted 09-08-2004 05:35 PM       View Profile for Cperazzi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Cperazzi's Home Page   View IP for Cperazzi

It makes me sad to read the above reply but I will have more free time available to me that I used to spend on this site.

Yes, I realize that I am merely a lurker and I won't be missed.
James_A_Fraser
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9 posted 09-08-2004 06:45 PM       View Profile for James_A_Fraser   Email James_A_Fraser   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for James_A_Fraser

Two straw-man assertions in one post. Interesting, but far from convincing.

The people who did the WTC and the Russian school incident have announced their intention to end our civilization, and they have shown repeatedly that they do not and will never respond to any policy or overture on our part. Their acts in Russia and other places that Noah mentioned -- within the past week -- are a clear demonstration that they will continue with their plan despite anything we do short of killing them.

War is how you kill people who have banded together to kill you. Opposing that is giving them exactly what they want -- a supply of undefended or weakly defended victims and time in which to plan their murders. In other words, it's supporting them, because it allows them to do what they intend to do rather than taking the only action which will stop them.

"Supporting" doesn't have to mean approving of what they do -- no one in their right mind would do that. It only means failing to do what is necessary to end the threat. Negotiation doesn't work, as the Russians learned this week. Making concessions doesn't work, as Israel and Saudi Arabia have learned to their dismay. Being nice doesn't work, any more than being nice to any other serial murderer would work, let alone one with what he sees as a holy purpose.

War works, ugly as it is. Just as you don't have to approve of them in order to give them de-facto support, you don't have to approve of war, to recognize when it is necessary.





~~J
Ron
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10 posted 09-08-2004 07:59 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Actually, James, using your own examples and logic, war doesn't seem to work either. How many have the Israeli's fought now? And if you're really concerned about "giving them exactly what they want," the very last thing you would want to do is attack. Clearly, that is exactly what they want, in hopes disparate countries will unite against a common enemy. Or do you really believe their desperate terrorism is designed to actually win a war?

Your distinction between approval and support is a valid one. Of course, doesn't that means you are also supporting them by giving them the attention and publicity they crave? Semantics can be fun, but at the end of the day support is still a loaded word in the context you used it. You might be more accurate, and certainly better served, by arguing that any course has consequences and you foresee ones you don't like. Reason tends to sway reasonable people more than theatrics will.

While I don't personally believe in unconditional peace, James, neither do I believe in labeling those who do. The search for solutions shouldn't be declared over until the problem is either solved or clearly will be solved. We ain't there, for sure.


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11 posted 09-08-2004 09:30 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

James, perhaps you should take a closer look at that list of supporters.
How dare you suggest these people had anything to do with, actively or silently, in supporting the horrible tragedy in Russia.
Of course, you have a right to your opinion, but that doesn't make most of what you wrote factual...except that this was indeed a horrible, tragedy, one more to add to all the others humans have perpetrated upon one another for so long.
And all Noah is doing here is trying to bring people together to search for non-violent ways to end this kind of thing.
And Ratleader? I am proud to say, I'll be there, God willing, to join hands and search for other ways to solve conflicts beyond war. I know where I stand, and am comfortable with it. Are you suggesting that anyone who goes and speaks out against war is for terrorism and murder?

[This message has been edited by Midnitesun (09-08-2004 10:18 PM).]

Mistletoe Angel
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12 posted 09-08-2004 11:51 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Look, the last thing I want to do is turn Passions poets against each other because of our political differences. If this escalates here, I'm going to request respectfully this thread be deleted.



I'm basically and simply trying to make an announcement, say what we advocate and believe, and how we believe a future agenda can work. Whether how right or wrong we are, you do not speak for everyone, James, and neither do I. I made a fault like this before and now I study and learn from it in trying to be as fair as I can despite being a passionate independent liberal.



James, I respectfully take your dissent in much more than just a grain of salt. Dissent is the most beautiful thing about America and what has shaped much progress here, not to mention leaves questions that have yet to be answered and thoughtfully discussed. I respect you for speaking, but please, I don't want the two of us to create a schism here in Passions. Passions in Poetry is the closest to a second family I've ever had, and I would be broken-hearted to see this family be polarized in sibling rivalry just as our nation is now.

I would be more than happy in debating the issues with you in The Alley or perhaps in the piptalk Lounge. Here is not the place.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

milkweed
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13 posted 09-09-2004 12:02 AM       View Profile for milkweed   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for milkweed

When people stop expressing their views, then we are really in trouble.  Good luck, Mistletoe Angel.  Because I am a pacifist, I will be there with you in thought.  
James_A_Fraser
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14 posted 09-09-2004 11:42 AM       View Profile for James_A_Fraser   Email James_A_Fraser   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for James_A_Fraser

You’re right, Noah – this thread doesn’t belong here. My own feeling is that all political talk should be limited to The Alley or a forum like it, including the pap that is being posted in Open, much of which reads more like a bunch of re-formatted party press releases than actual poetry. To me, political wrangling is more offensive than obscenity, because it goes on and on, solves nothing, and almost invariably creates hard feelings.

I don’t have any toward you. I think you’re being a model of forbearance here, and I respect your right to hold the opinions you do. I hope you always have that right, though if we lose this battle, the right to voice political opposition will be the first casualty after the right to have or not have any religion you choose.

Ron – I’m supposed to be trying to sway people’s opinions? How silly. In a past life, I used to inhabit the political newsgroups. I’ve never seen a single instance in which a person from the center was able to change the opinion of someone on the left, and it very seldom happened with people on the right. So I won’t play that game. I’ll say what I think, and if maturity eventually changes someone’s viewpoint that’s fine, but I won’t expect it.

Israel has fought endless wars, because they’ve been endlessly attacked, since the very day the nation was re-formed in 1948. They’re surrounded and outnumbered by something like 20-1, by countries that have the stated intention of killing them all, and most of whom hold up Hitler as a national hero because of his great success in doing just that. The fact that they still exist after nearly six decades is their victory, and it is proof that their wars were successful. Meanwhile, all their attempts at conciliation and appeasement have resulted in more attacks.

True, the last thing you should do is attack, but the first thing you must do is defend, and sometimes defending means going into the enemy’s territory and clobbering him badly enough that he either can’t hurt you again, or loses interest in doing it because the price is too high. That’s what we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. Sure, they crave attention – and if they don’t get it by being wiped out in those places, they’ll get it by staging more of the spectacular attacks that make them look like conquering heroes.

I DO believe in labeling those who want unconditional peace, because to me the words “I’m a pacifist” translate to “I’m a fool.” Of course war is the last option, but in this case it has been demonstrated that it’s the only option which has a chance of working now. We’re in a war of civilizations, and we are already losing by having failed to fight back for a couple of decades.

Midnite – You’re putting up more strawmen than Ron did. Please don’t make fatuous overstatements and try to pin them on me.

I don’t care if Neville Chamberlain himself has signed up. Failing to oppose fascist aggression is as wrong now as it was in the run-up to World War II, and the potential consequences now are even worse.

I dare make that connection because it is true. That isn’t to say Noah’s people actively support the ones who have declared war on us, but it is to say that by attempting to keep us from fighting back, they are directly contributing to the killing of innocent people and the damaging of all our lives. There is a museum in Vietnam now, dedicated to the honor of the American peace activists who helped North Vietnam win that war (for what it’s worth, Mr. Kerry’s picture is there in a place of special honor). They were for peace, but they caused innocent people to die, and left others living in slavery.

You’re right, it is a horrible tragedy, and it is up to us to stop that tragedy, because our enemies won’t. The way out, is through.

Those who oppose the war aren’t necessarily for terrorism and murder, though it’s patently obvious that a few of them are. I hope a non-violent way can be found, but so far in the world’s history it never has, at least not that I have heard about. I don’t know of a single instance in which pacifism has stopped a war. There may be some, but if there are, I’ve never heard of them.




~~J
Mysteria
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15 posted 09-09-2004 12:51 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

I should like to stick to your announcement Noah.  I have seen you grow so much in this last year, and you are such an intelligent young man.  What you believe in you own, and its yours alone.  You have always stood tall in it, and wear it well.  Good luck on your march for peace, and perhaps if these marches took place in every single city, it would also put an end to at least part of the violence by letting the world know we are sick of it.  Unfortunatley there have been religious wars and wars of greed since the beginning of time, and in some cases war even is supposed to be a good thing they tell me economically for us.  I am not for violence of any kind, but then again, I am also not one of those mothers who have seen their child blown up either, and I think quite possibly my stance would change to protect my own flesh and blood.

Anyway, no one has to ever apologize or defend what they think in the free world, at least not yet.

Good luck to you and bless you for at least doing "something" for what you believe in.
Ron
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16 posted 09-09-2004 02:24 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
In a past life, I used to inhabit the political newsgroups, I’ve never seen a single instance in which a person from the center was able to change the opinion of someone on the left, and it very seldom happened with people on the right. So I won’t play that game. I’ll say what I think, and if maturity eventually changes someone’s viewpoint that’s fine, but I won’t expect it.

Why are you participating in this thread then? Why say what you think if not to affect change? Why condemn and, in turn, face condemnation if you believe all it will do is create animosity?

Perhaps there are reasons why violence seems to often prevail over talking.

quote:
I DO believe in labeling those who want unconditional peace, because to me the words “I’m a pacifist” translate to “I’m a fool.”

Being a pacifist doesn't necessarily translate to unconditional peace, James. Any more than being a war monger translates to not having justifications. The fool is the one who thinks he can kill an idea by simply killing the person who believes in it.

quote:
I hope a non-violent way can be found, but so far in the world’s history it never has, at least not that I have heard about. I don’t know of a single instance in which pacifism has stopped a war. There may be some, but if there are, I’ve never heard of them.

LOL. When two pacifists meet, James, the result rarely makes it into the history books.

You might want to read up a bit on India's recent history, though. Say, circa 1915 to 1948?

Unfortunately, peace rarely seems to work unless at least one of the parties actually want it. I don't have to completely agree with Noah to recognize the importance of allowing people like him to have a voice. Because, unlike you, James, I'm not entirely convinced I already have all the answers.

Mistletoe Angel
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17 posted 09-09-2004 02:40 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Awwwwwwww, thanks James! I do believe The Alley is the right place to have deeper discussions like these. I do believe political poetry in Open is good too because we are entitled to freedom of speech and I think the title of the thread "Open" explains a lot, as long as it isn't blasphemous or hateful. I've been posting political poetry there since this month began, but what my poems like that do is not so much cry for answers, but ask questions and have a line striking contemplation.

I do encourage you very much, James, if you have political pieces, to post them in Open also. I believe we do need to hear from both sides to prevail.



Awwwwwwww, thank you Sharon! You are such a special friend! (angel friendship hugs) I understand what you mean, and I understand some are afraid any minute we could have another September 11th if no action is taken. I just believe personally the best way to stop terrorism is to get to the root of the problem, get to the psyche of the terrorized mind. I'm not saying it's an easy thing to accomplish, but it is doable. I've heard what some have said that they want to kill innocent people and such, but I think often we forget terrorists are human after all and perhaps they're yearning for something non-material, and if we try and listen, perhaps we'll make out something we haven't heard before. That's what me and the PPRC believe. Some may say that's utopian-thinking, but I believe fighting fire with fire only spreads licks of flames. (hugs) God Bless You Sharon!



I love you all!



Love,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

James_A_Fraser
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18 posted 09-10-2004 02:08 PM       View Profile for James_A_Fraser   Email James_A_Fraser   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for James_A_Fraser

"Anyway, no one has to ever apologize or defend what they think in the free world, at least not yet."

Well Mysteria that’s half true at least – but this thread is a pretty good demonstration of what someone goes through if they think like me, and dare to say what they think.

Ron—

“Why are you participating in this thread then? Why say what you think if not to affect change? Why condemn and, in turn, face condemnation if you believe all it will do is create animosity? “

Because you came into the thread and attacked me for daring to state my opinion – that’s the only reason. If you hadn’t, I wouldn’t have said another thing. Noah and I respect each other’s opinions and our right to hold them, something that you apparently do not. I thought at first that you actually didn’t understand what I was saying, but now it’s becoming fairly clear that your actual motive was to disrupt and start an argument.

One other person who started out in this thread has a policy of leaving any discussion you enter. I’m beginning to understand why, and I think it might be wise for me to do the same.

“Being a pacifist doesn't necessarily translate to unconditional peace, James. Any more than being a war monger translates to not having justifications. The fool is the one who thinks he can kill an idea by simply killing the person who believes in it.”

As you know, being a pacifist means giving concessions to an aggressor in the hope that appeasement will buy peace. When the only thing the aggressor wants is for you either to die or to submit to what amounts to slavery for yourself and all generations after you, pacifism means something else entirely – suicide.

“You might want to read up a bit on India's recent history, though. Say, circa 1915 to 1948?”

I presume you’re talking about Ghandi, and probably not his little hobby of sleeping with five-year-old girls. His methods were non-violent at first, but they were anything but pacifist. He and his followers aggressively pursued a policy designed to shame opponents into granting what they wanted. That only works with an enemy that is capable of shame, and it’s been demonstrated repeatedly that for those who have declared war on us now, shame isn’t a factor in the equation.
He actually set the stage for much of the trouble we now face. After consolidating his power, he forced India’s religious minority, at gunpoint, to move from India proper into a place now known as Pakhistan, and the hatreds that were spawned then contributed directly to the climate that has led to the religious fascism we are faced with today.

”Unfortunately, peace rarely seems to work unless at least one of the parties actually want it.”

Are you pretending that America doesn’t want peace? Surely not. In each of the conflicts that Noah mentioned, one side does desperately want peace, and the other side has repeatedly rejected it – as you know.

“ I don't have to completely agree with Noah to recognize the importance of allowing people like him to have a voice. Because, unlike you, James, I'm not entirely convinced I already have all the answers.”

Your pretense of neutral objectivity is insulting. Since joining this thread you have taken one side only, and you’ve attacked virtually everything I’ve said. I’m the one who stated a position, and when challenged, gave my justification for holding it, then when that was attacked, gave further reasons why I think as I do. Those with the opposing opinion haven’t offered the slightest justification for what they believe, yet you continue to attack me and now resort to making rude personal remarks, while so far you’ve given them a pass. If this were an actual discussion, they would already have given some line of reasoning that supports their position, but they haven’t and you – the supposedly objective third party -- should have been the one who asked for it.

You’re right, one side in this clearly thinks they are unassailably right. Unfortunately, it’s the side you’re on. If a convincing justification were offered, I'd change my position in a heartbeat.

Noah -- I’m truly sorry this is being done to your thread....you never intended for it to be sabotaged in this way, and neither did I. You’ve got a heart of gold, my friend!




~~J
Ron
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19 posted 09-10-2004 03:08 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Because you came into the thread and attacked me for daring to state my opinion – that’s the only reason. If you hadn’t, I wouldn’t have said another thing.

Before I entered the thread, James, you already *had* said another thing, reiterating your first. Both of your first two posts, before I called you on it, were attacks on others for believing differently than yourself. I would never had posted at all had you simply said you thought a different way was better. That's not what you said, however. Instead, you accused others of supporting terrorism, resorting to sensationalism instead of reason. Had Noah come back and attacked you in return, perhaps calling you a baby killer as was so common in the Sixties, I might have asked him, too, to justify his position. He didn't, and I applaud his class.

In truth, you and I are probably in much closer political agreement than Noah and I. But that's never been the point in this thread. Noah didn't ask for opinions on his invitation, let alone ask for attacks for issuing it, but you felt compelled to offer up both. YOU turned his announcement into a debate, making your apologies to Noah most appropriate.

We all have opinions, James, and I respect yours just as much as I do Noah's. What I don't respect and won't tolerate are personal attacks on others.
James_A_Fraser
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20 posted 09-10-2004 03:16 PM       View Profile for James_A_Fraser   Email James_A_Fraser   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for James_A_Fraser

But you make them.

True, I did give a response to Noah -- thought I owed him that, since my first wasn't self-explanatory. But it was you, with your strawman assertions and your personal attacks that kept me in the thread. Not that you will have noticed, but my apology to him was for what you did. I felt sorry that a genteel person like Noah had to see it in something he started.

Nothing I said in those first two posts was a personal attack. I characterized what people were doing as giving de-facto support to an enemy of this country. That's strong, but not personal -- certainly not personal in the way that your direct insults to me were.

But that won't be a problem now. I'm outta here.




~~J

[This message has been edited by James_A_Fraser (09-10-2004 08:12 PM).]

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21 posted 09-10-2004 11:16 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Actually, Noah, it sounds like a wonderful organization.

"with all victims of violence, in the U.S., the Mideast, and throughout the world."

That is indeed a worthy endeavor. Three years ago thousands of people per year were being killed in Afghanistan, daily public executions in the soccer stadium. For the past decade tens of thousands of people were being murdered in Iraq. There have been over 250 massive grave sites uncovered containing over 300,000 bodies of ordinary people murdered by Hussein's regime. Who knows how many more there are? It is estimated that over 200,000 children per year under the age of 6 died each year Hussein was in power. That doesn't exist now in either country. For your organization to recognize the suffering of these people is very admirable and I wish you the best. I would also expect your group to honor George Bush, who was responsible for putting an end to these two murderous regimes. The alternative, of course, would have been to allow the atrocities to continue against the victims your organization is rallying for, which I'm sure your group would not have wanted to have happen.

I wish you the best....
Ron
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22 posted 09-11-2004 09:52 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Sometimes people can recognize their own behaviors and correct them, giving threads like this at least the potential to do more good than simply deleting attacks would do. Sometimes, sadly, people can't.

I didn't attack you anywhere in this thread, James, but you clearly don't know what a personal attack is. Five years ago, I would have taken the time to explain. It wouldn't have done any good, I know, but I would have tried. Today, it's simply easier to take you at your word and be content that Noah and others who don't always think as you do will be safe from verbal mistreatment by you.

Pity. I had hoped for more. But I will settle for no less.

quote:
The alternative, of course, would have been to allow …

Mike, don't you mean, "One alternative, of course, would have been to allow …"?

Either/or situations paint a black and white picture that rarely represents the real world. I don't pretend to know all the alternatives, and certainly don't know the best one, but I would hope our leaders don't think they do, either. We need to continue looking.


James_A_Fraser
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23 posted 09-11-2004 10:28 AM       View Profile for James_A_Fraser   Email James_A_Fraser   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for James_A_Fraser

I would have said the same words to you, Ron -- though of course I wouldn't be able to make the implied threats.

You were insulting and condescending all the way through this thread -- including this last reply, which was rude enough to draw me back in after I'd decided to leave. I'm sorry you're unable -- or unwilling -- to look at yourself clearly enough to see it.

Like you, I tried and failed. From now on, unless somewhere along the line you apologize for having treated me this way here, I won't give you the chance. When you enter, I will leave. I won't make a big deal of it, but I won't be there.



~~J
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24 posted 09-11-2004 02:12 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Please everyone, let's not fight or argue who started what. What's said is said, so let's leave it there.

Balladeer, yes, we do mourn the great losses in the Middle East under the Saddam regime, the war-afflicted life in Afghanistan, as well as the genocides in Sudan, etc. We come to an agreement that the world is safer without tortured minds like him in power. We just differ in believing the type of appropriate action used in ending these regimes.

We have already said we don't believe in violence, period. PPRC stands united believing that George Bush, himself, and his Administration, is responsible for the losses of over a thousand of our own young men, tens of thousands of untold casualties of innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, and tens of thousands of injuries in-between.

The point is simple. We denounce violence as a solution and war as a foreign policy. We believe there are non-violent alternatives to resolving conflicts like the mass murders and terrorism from repeating themselves, and we believe violence will only encourage and fuel its recurrance. We must strengthen international ties and relationships. We must promote education. Somewhere I believe there will be a compromise.

Though many of us are voting for Kerry this November, and it is a very difficult vote to make, for we understand Kerry is the only candidate capable of defeating Bush this November, and he himself would have voted for the war resolution. Should he be elected we will take the next step and hope the majority of the party's delegates (95% have said they are against the war) can shape Kerry up at the shoulders and encourage the closure to this senseless war, where we will be doing our part in calling on him determined to end this war just as he did in Vietnam, and see if he's the same man that came back from Vietnam and gave the enthralling Winter Soldier hearing speech. We have many political party chapters working with us, from the Democratic to the Green to the Libertarian and Socialist, and we're not about throwing punches, we're about throwing voices and ideas. This is not merely a rally, it's a forum in motion, promoting alternative ideas to the public without the use of mass violence to resolving these conflicts worldwide. And in approaching those who disagree, like yourself, we don't want to sling mud, for it only tears the community further apart. You have the right to hold dear to your opinion, we are merely just exercising and promoting other options.

Some, may say, our ideas are utopian. Well...I believe the "reformation of the Middle East" with military action is arguably even more so and here in America, the land of opportunity, I believe there will be this very moment when others will hear this calling and we can begin to make this fantasy a reality, for the good of both of us.

The Bush Administration has said loud and clear they're "not turning back" despite a majority of Americans believing America is heading in the wrong direction. We say "Let us help and try and find the right direction then, is that too much to ask?"

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20
 
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