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Local Rebel
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since 1999-12-21

Posts 5767
Southern Abstentia

0 posted 2004-06-24 10:19 PM

You're a click away from being able to participate in something that may be a seed of peace. I received an e-mail today from beliefnet about a group called FaithfulAmerica.org that has produced a television commercial that has begun airing on Arab television.

This message

quote:

"A Salaam A'alaykum. As Americans of faith, we express our deep sorrow at abuses committed in Iraqi prisons. We stand in solidarity with all those in Iraq and everywhere who demand justice and human dignity. We condemn the sinful and systemic abuses committed in our name and pledge to work to right these wrongs."

is read by persons from Christian, Jewish, and Muslim faith groups in the United States.

Maybe it isn't much, yet, and I don't often participate in these sorts of things -- but I think this group and this message is where thoughtful Americans should be clicking. If we're going to stem the tide of tomorrows terrorists we have to tear down the wall of mis-understanding between the people of the West and the people of the Muslim world. Ordinary citizens to ordinary citizens.

view the ad here http://www.faithfulamerica.org/adclip.htm

Endorse it if you are so inclined.

FaitfulAmerica is a project of the National Council of Churches http://www.ncccusa.org/

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (06-25-2004 07:17 PM).]

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis

since 2002-11-18

Posts 7350
the ass-end of space

1 posted 2004-06-25 03:26 AM

I'm not a man of faith but admire this excellent and noble gesture. Nice find LR, a little glimpse of hope that humanity hasn't been completely laid to waste yet.

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean

since 2000-02-02

Posts 27738

2 posted 2004-06-25 03:32 AM

thanks again, Reb.

I do believe that I am "so inclined."

suthern

Member Seraphic

since 1999-07-29

Posts 20723
Louisiana

3 posted 2004-06-25 09:12 AM

Mmmmmm-wah!!! *S*
Loving hugz,
Auntie

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant

since 1999-12-21

Posts 5767
Southern Abstentia

4 posted 2004-06-25 07:18 PM

OK Raph... I changed the title.

Thanks serene one... and aUntie! HugsZzz backatcha

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis

since 2002-11-18

Posts 7350
the ass-end of space

5 posted 2004-06-26 01:46 AM

Grins thanks, um but I'm not only agnostic but Canadian..can I still add my name?

Local Rebel
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since 1999-12-21

Posts 5767
Southern Abstentia

6 posted 2004-06-26 12:54 PM

But isn't a Canadian an American?

Although -- a Canadian American isn't specifically responsible for Abu Ghraib.

passing shadows
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since 1999-08-26

Posts 45577
displaced

7 posted 2004-06-27 04:56 AM

Not A Poet
Member Elite

since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

8 posted 2004-06-27 05:29 PM

Sorry Reb but that looks like pure propaganda to me. Check this.

quote:
We condemn the sinful and systemic abuses committed in our name

Emphasis mine.

Doesn't "systemic" imply that it is my falut too? Although I despise what that handful did, I'll be damned if I accept responsibility. Until there is some solid proof that it is in fact systemic, signing such an admission of guilt is nothing short of foolish.

Pete

Never express yourself more clearly than you can think - Niels Bohr

Local Rebel
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since 1999-12-21

Posts 5767
Southern Abstentia

9 posted 2004-06-27 07:57 PM

Well Pete, I don't think that's an unreasonable response.  Uninformed.  But, not unreasonable.  It all depends upon what meaning one ascribes to the word systemic.

If General Motors, for example, manufactures a bad product every product they make is not inferred to be bad.  But it is still a system failure.  The system of General Motors is designed for a single purpose; the sustained financial profit of General Motors.  In order to do that it has to produce a satisfied customer and a profit for its shareholders.  In that sense it is a closed, rational system.

Anything that effects that goal negatively is a system failure -- whether it is a bad product reaching a consumer or an assembly-line shutdown due to a mechanical failure.  If an assembly line were to shutdown the maintenance engineers would look for the root cause of the failure.  This is sometimes called root cause failure analysis.  In looking for the root cause one always wants to assign the systemic problem rather than merely address the symptom.

In order to do this most maintenance or quality management teams would use the '5 why' approach.  This is designed to get the symptom back to the system level.

Symptom: Assembly line is shutdown.

Why? (first why)

Blown fuse.

Why is the fuse blown? (second why)

Because there is a bearing in the line drive motor that is seized.

Why is the bearing seized? (third why)

Because the bearing was never lubricated or checked after installation of the equipment.

Why wasn't it lubed or checked? (fourth why)

Because it isn't in the preventive maintenance plan.

Why isn't it in the preventive maintenance plan? (fifth why)

Because there are no guidelines issued to vendors for the maintenance of rotational components.

We can merely replace the fuse and try to run again but the fuse will blow immediately.  We can replace the fuse and the bearing -- but soon the same problem will occur again when the new bearing seizes. We can merely alter the preventive maintenance   plan for this particular piece of equipment but it won't stop the problem in the procurement of future assembly machines.  By fixing the systemic cause the maintenance team can assure the same problem isn't likely to happen again.

The military is also a closed, rational system designed to defend the citizens and the Constitution of the United States of America.http://www.ed.psu.edu/insys/ESD/systems/theory/SYSTHEO2.htm

If you why it all the way back -- we're responsible Pete.  You can try to convince yourself otherwise.  But there is a flag on their uniform.  That's us.

Local Rebel
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since 1999-12-21

Posts 5767
Southern Abstentia

10 posted 2004-06-27 08:26 PM

I wasn't going to do this here -- but I might as well before it gets moved to the Alley;

We've known ever since we've known about the abuse that the problem is a systemic one -- from General Taguba's own report;

quote:

Washington, DC, May. 5 (UPI) -- The six soldiers facing charges in detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib prison are not the first ones from the 800th Military Police Brigade to carry out such acts, according to a secret Army investigation into the matter.

The report, conducted by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, has revealed significant problems with the unit's training, manning and mission, as well as the conduct of its members. It portrays an American-run prison system in disarray, plagued by overcrowding, riots, escapes, and lax discipline and record keeping that made it possible.

The findings suggest some responsibility for the abuse may be placed much higher up the chain of command which allowed those conditions to exist.

Four soldiers from the 320th MP Battalion of the 800th Military Police Brigade had kicked and beaten detainees following a transport mission from Talil Air Base.

The four were recommended for court martial with the support of 800th MP Brigade commander Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski. The soldiers agreed to a plea bargain and avoided jail time. The intervention with the unit stopped there, according to the report.

"There is no evidence that Brig. Gen. Karpinski ever attempted to remind 800th MP Soldiers of the requirements of the Geneva Conventions regarding detainee treatment or took any steps to ensure that such abuse was not repeated," the report states.

http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20040505-045058-9353r.htm

Not A Poet
Member Elite

since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

11 posted 2004-06-27 09:33 PM

I suspect you know I won't be convinced by some hypothetical rhetoric about General Motors. Likewise for any argument over semantics or any suggestions or innuendo from some website. Websites and blogs are becoming even more ubiquitous than the notorious "opinions." We all have heard what opinions are like. And yes, most of them do stink.

As understood by probably everyone who is capable of reading this, systemic, as used there, does not relate to the simple failure of some minor system. It implies a core failure, in this case, a core failure of the standards and principles of our military and even our entire nation. I do not know a single individual who was not horrified by the prison scandal. I don't believe that can be considered any indication of a systemic failure.

I would just advise anyone interested in participating in this or any other similar petition, confession, or whatever you want to call it. You are confirming someone else's words. Please consider what they imply as well as what the words might say. The perpetrators of this document probably had good intentions. By condemning our entire country as nothing better than a bunch of thugs and torturers, however, I am convinced they do far more harm than any good they might have innocently intended.

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant

since 1999-12-21

Posts 5767
Southern Abstentia

12 posted 2004-06-27 10:24 PM

Well Pete you can make whatever 'innuendo' you want over the links I've provided but they aren't blogs or 'some' website.

They're a discussion on system design at Penn State University and a UPI article from the Washington Times (which was very strategically selected since it is a notoriously CONSERVATIVE newspaper which can be seen easily by looking at its' Op-Ed page here ).

As for 'rhetoric' regarding GM -- RCFA is a very real tool used by very real engineers to make lots and lots of money http://www.rootcause.com/maintena.htm.

Why curse the darkness Pete? Light a candle. Explain how you can wash your hands of what your military does.

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (06-27-2004 11:05 PM).]

Not A Poet
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since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

13 posted 2004-06-28 09:20 AM

I am not "washing my hands" of what my military does. We are not discussing "what my military does." We are discussing what a few individual perverts did and got caught at. At this time, I trust our military to do what is right and appropriately punish all those responsible.

I say you, and anyone else who sees this as a systemic failure, needs to see the light. I have seen it.

Local Rebel
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since 1999-12-21

Posts 5767
Southern Abstentia

14 posted 2004-06-28 06:18 PM

Well Pete you see much more than the light -- you see a lot of stuff that doesn't even exist. If you think systemic means that America is rotten to the core then you need to contact Generals Sanchez and Taguba and tell them because that's where the word, in relation to the Abu Ghraib situation, originated. In Taguba's report. Not with FaithAmerica. Not with me.

The entire text is here http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/

quote:

LTG Sanchez cited recent reports of detainee abuse, escapes from confinement facilities, and accountability lapses, which indicated systemic problems within the brigade and suggested a lack of clear standards, proficiency, and leadership. LTG Sanchez requested a comprehensive and all-encompassing inquiry to make findings and recommendations concerning the fitness and performance of the 800th MP Brigade.

---

The objective of MG Ryder’s Team was to observe detention and prison operations, identify potential systemic and human rights issues, and provide near-term, mid-term, and long-term recommendations to improve CJTF-7 operations and transition of the Iraqi prison system from US military control/oversight to the Coalition Provisional Authority and eventually to the Iraqi Government.

---

Unfortunately, many of the systemic problems that surfaced during MG Ryder’s Team’s assessment are the very same issues that are the subject of this investigation. In fact, many of the abuses suffered by detainees occurred during, or near to, the time of that assessment.

---

(S) That between October and December 2003, at the Abu Ghraib Confinement Facility (BCCF), numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees. This systemic and illegal abuse of detainees was intentionally perpetrated by several members of the military police guard force (372nd Military Police Company, 320thMilitary Police Battalion, 800th MP Brigade), in Tier (section) 1-A of the Abu Ghraib Prison (BCCF). The allegations of abuse were substantiated by detailed witness statements (ANNEX 26) and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence. Due to the extremely sensitive nature of these photographs and videos, the ongoing CID investigation, and the potential for the criminal prosecution of several suspects, the photographic evidence is not included in the body of my investigation.

---

There is abundant evidence in the statements of numerous witnesses that soldiers throughout the 800th MP Brigade were not proficient in their basic MOS skills, particularly regarding internment/resettlement operations. Moreover, there is no evidence that the command, although aware of these deficiencies, attempted to correct them in any systemic manner other than ad hoc training by individuals with civilian corrections experience.

If we take credit for the good things the American military does we have to take responsibility for the bad things too.

Not A Poet
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since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

15 posted 2004-06-28 07:39 PM

Ok, that does it. I just foolishly typed a long response only to see the whole thing disappear just as I was ready to hit the submit button. Now I've lost interest in this discussion.

I claim though that you are the one seeing too much here. You obviously will bring out someone's statement to counter any argument. Everything you have qouted above either is from a biased source (NBC?) or is out of context or is just innuendo.

Think about common usage instead of some semantic argument. As commonly used and understood, the original apology as quoted, implies the whole system. They are not apologizing for faulty training but for the abuse. As long as it includes "systemic" and "in our name," I cannot agree with it. Leave out those words and I would probably be in complete sympathy.

How much training does it take for an American to understand that it is not acceptable to torture, humiliate or otherwise abuse other humans under our control? Even way back when I was in the military, we did get some training on how prisoners must be treated. I'm sure the MPs must get even more.

I'm sorry you, and anyone else who would subscribe to such a document, can't see the implications of this apology.

Peace Friend

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant

since 1999-12-21

Posts 5767
Southern Abstentia

16 posted 2004-06-28 07:56 PM

General Taguba's report is biased?

Pete -- you're not reading what's posted. That's the published text of Taguba's report. Do your homework.

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis

since 2002-11-18

Posts 7350
the ass-end of space

17 posted 2004-06-28 09:17 PM

quote:
But isn't a Canadian an American?

What the hell does that mean?

Local Rebel
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since 1999-12-21

Posts 5767
Southern Abstentia

18 posted 2004-06-28 09:38 PM

Last time I looked Canada was in North America?

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis

since 2002-11-18

Posts 7350
the ass-end of space

19 posted 2004-06-29 12:42 PM

North Americans(one who lives on the continent of N. American)

American (citizen of the U.S.A)

Canadian (citizen of that snowbound wasteland where apprentely we hunt bear and moose(meese?)in the middle of the streets..oops the complex kicked in)

serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02

Posts 27738

20 posted 2004-06-29 04:27 AM

As per my point in the discussion of "Who's responsible?"

I still maintain that we are ALL responsible.
(Most poignantly the "american citizen."

Adhering to that thought,I hold steadfastly that a particular principle of responsibility is simple acknowledgement that a wrong has occurred is the mere beginning of peaceful resolution and I welcomed the chance to endorse this Reb.

And as per stated in my previous opinion, the only thing further that I can do is make damned sure that such a thing never happens again. Or at the least, I will give it my best vote.

I welcomed the opportunity to do this.

and yes, Pete. PEACE...

and Raph? you ever have meese in your stove?

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant

since 1999-12-21

Posts 5767
Southern Abstentia

21 posted 2004-06-29 09:04 PM

There are streets in Canada?

Who knew?

Serendipity doo... fortunatley -- there are some who are brave enough to accept responsibility. After all -- we are the land of the free and the home of the -- um -- ok.

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