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Ringo
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Saluting with misty eyes

0 posted 2009-01-10 06:17 PM


As he cannot truly be the first "black" president (being not all black), would this be a better name for him?

What would you attempt to do...if you knew you could not fail?.
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Sunshine
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1 posted 2009-01-10 09:07 PM


Dunno...which side of the fence does he wish to sit?


Mysteria
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2 posted 2009-01-10 10:34 PM


I guess some might think this funny, but I find this post very distasteful.  We are all of mixed roots, I know I sure am, just as he has his, and you yours.  I think he is going to be the first hope period you have seen in the USA in a long, long time.  
Greeneyes
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3 posted 2009-01-10 11:42 PM


I dont see color....

and what would it matter anyway?

serenity blaze
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4 posted 2009-01-11 12:41 PM


I reported it as inppropriate content.

Just because it made me feel ill.

Ringo? I am sure you can defend your way out of this.

To some.

Not to me.

So yeah, I was the one who reported this as "inappropriate content."


serenity blaze
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5 posted 2009-01-11 01:04 AM


I have been also trying to file an inappropriate comment regarding your picture, Ringo.

I seriously suspect, if that would have been a picture of a female of indeterminable age and maturity, IN A DOG HOUSE, with "BAD GIRL" printed over it? that picture would have denied.

I find it offensive on the grounds that some how a "bad boy" in a dog house humiliation position is acceptable without being sexual, whereas, I have known women who have had photos rejected on the grounds that they were holding soda bottles.

*shrug*

I would not have raised the second issue publically if my protest would have been acknowledged privately.

Thank you kindly.

Balladeer
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6 posted 2009-01-11 09:37 AM


I have to agree that the thread is not in great taste and, besides, rather pointless. It hasn't been removed because (1) there is no specific guideline it breaks and (2) when things like this come up, normally the responders themselves handle it with their comments, as it has been done here.

I seriously suspect, if that would have been a picture of a female of indeterminable age and maturity, IN A DOG HOUSE, with "BAD GIRL" printed over it? that picture would have denied.

Serenity gal, try not to drop any fly balls out there in left field. Being in the dog house is a very common term for men. The phrase "I'm in the dog house again" has been spoken by millions of men all over the world, who have had the misfortune of being on their mate's bad side. Bad girl normally refers to the "good girls go to Heaven; bad girls go everywhere" way of thought. In six decades I've never heard a female say "I'm in the doghouse". Be that as it may, it's not really fair to assume that a pic of a woman in a doghouse with a Bad Girl sign above here would be rejected. Photos of women with soda bottles rejected? I suppose that would depend on the location of the soda bottle

It's a shame if you really feel that the site management is so unfair and biased. I don't think we are....

JenniferMaxwell
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7 posted 2009-01-11 10:09 AM


A better name would be President-elect Obama.

When you mock someone because of their racial heritage, you’re wiping your feet on the Respect and Tolerance guidelines.


Midnitesun
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8 posted 2009-01-11 12:14 PM


Ringo, please. Why do find the need to perpetuate the race card?

The people of this country have elected a man of honor and integrity, intelligence, who offers most of us a ray of HOPE for a better future, and who just might be capable of moving this country beyond such demeaning labeling.

HOPE...
is colorblind, secular, and non-partisan.

JenniferMaxwell
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9 posted 2009-01-11 02:22 PM


When moderators refuse to remove a blatant racial slur, saying it “might” be a typo, yet the “typo” is never corrected and the slur remains on this board to this day, most assuredly you can expect to see similar kinds of posts such as this one.

Clicking on inappropriate content seems to be a waste of time, especially  if it’s a moderator’s post or a post by a member of what could be described as the in clique. I spent several hours one evening asking a moderator to remove his own post, one attacking me by saying I said something hateful that I never said.  I feel sure he thought it was amusing I was offended and enjoyed playing a game of power over the powerless. And, though I reported the post, I never received any explanation as to why it was allowed to remain on the board for hours.

If the point of leaving this, and the other racial slur post I referred to, is to have “responders themselves handle it with their comments”, or  foster some sort of discussion that chastises  or enlightens the poster and others who read the thread, then why remove any offensive post?  And why bother having moderators weigh in on the appropriateness? Several senior members and moderators have referred to the post as being inappropriate, very distasteful, etc., yet the post is still up and the poster himself seems unwilling to respond and instead hides behind the decision of the mods who gave this post a pass. To put it more clearly, yes, I believe, to a degree, there is unfairness and bias, and I also think it’s time to give some mods their redundancy notices.


Greeneyes
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10 posted 2009-01-11 02:28 PM


I also think it’s time to give some mods their redundancy notices""

HI...we dont just JUMP to a conclusion, its a thought out process; we never just pull a poem or post -- we talk about it first....we do live a life as well....be patient, and I am sure the right decision will be made....

personally I think this post (yours) falls under no respect or tolerance for moderators....JMHO

~~**~~
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I define myself by all moments and how they teach and touch me......02  

Mysteria
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11 posted 2009-01-11 02:31 PM


quote Midnitesun:
HOPE...
is colorblind, secular, and non-partisan

Hope is badly needed not only in the States, but everywhere right now.  To those not from the USA, posts like these send out a very tainted stigma with them to others outside the USA.  I think we have to let this one go, learn from it, move on, and rise above it.

I believe in hope, and I also believe in your next President.  I sure wouldn't want his job, would you?

Jennifer, I would sincerely like to suggest you sign up for moderator duty, and see what exactly it involves, and also curtails.  We all have lives beyond these pages, and take what we do very seriously, as we are required to follow the protocol of this site set out by Ron.  Here you go, there is more to it than you think. Moderator Applicaton

JenniferMaxwell
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12 posted 2009-01-11 02:39 PM


Is it just moderators who are covered by the Respect and Tolerance rule? Not those hurt or offended by racial slurs?

Truly, I don't have very much respect for a moderator who misquotes me and states I said something hateful when I didn't and then plays words games when you respectfully ask that moderator to delete their post.

If you think my post violates the rules, by all means click the inappropriate content button.

Greeneyes
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13 posted 2009-01-11 02:45 PM


oh yes by all means we are the only ones that fall under that guideline... ...please if you really believe that then you dont know this site, or any one on it very well...

~~**~~
I never let one moment define me,
I define myself by all moments and how they teach and touch me......02  

Mysteria
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14 posted 2009-01-11 03:03 PM


Decisions are not made on the "fly" in here, and it takes time for enough moderators to drop in to the "Deputy Moderator Forum," and form a consensus needed to make a change.  To those sitting at a desk waiting for a decision of change, it will always take longer than it seems.  

Jennifer, you said,
quote:
" To put it more clearly, yes, I believe, to a degree, there is unfairness and bias, and I also think it’s time to give some mods their redundancy notices

I am sure quite a few mods would gladly take you up on that offer as moderating is "time" spent away from our own requirements in life.  If some of the people that complain the most would sign up and take a turn, then that would bring new blood into the mainstream of the forums being moderated.  That would however, require being part of the solution, and not the problems in here though.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I for one stay at this because of the integrity of this site, and Ron.  For those that don't appreciate how this site is run, there is always a way around that, and it is to simply leave.  Many have, but they mostly all return, because of the way this site is moderated and run.  

JenniferMaxwell
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15 posted 2009-01-11 03:28 PM


You'll be glad to know I just submitted my my Deputy Moderator application. For those following this discussion, I'll be sure to let you know whether or not it's accepted.
Grinch
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16 posted 2009-01-11 03:34 PM



There’s probably a very good reason but:

Why don’t you just move the thread to the Mod forum - chew the cud for as long as it takes - then let the person who complained and the original poster know why you are, or aren’t, letting the post stay.

You don’t have to do it on every post that’s reported, just on posts that get more than one complaint. That way you avoid the risk of material that might be offensive to some members cluttering up the place until you make your collective minds up and you avoid friction between members who end up arguing the toss until you make a decision.

Just a thought.


Greeneyes
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17 posted 2009-01-11 03:36 PM


thats a great idea Grinch, but only Ron can move this post... it's his area...

~~**~~
I never let one moment define me,
I define myself by all moments and how they teach and touch me......02  

JenniferMaxwell
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18 posted 2009-01-11 03:36 PM


With brilliant ideas like that, Grinch, you're next in line to be volunteered for the mod squad.
Grinch
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Whoville
19 posted 2009-01-11 03:43 PM



quote:
thats a great idea Grinch, but only Ron can move this post... it's his area…


That should take about three minutes to change - even if it wasn’t an inbuilt function of the software.

quote:
you're next in line to be volunteered for the mod squad.


I take it you weren’t a member when I was a Mod here Jen - I can show you the scars if you like.


Greeneyes
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20 posted 2009-01-11 03:48 PM


That should take about three minutes to change """"


Talk to ron ...

~~**~~
I never let one moment define me,
I define myself by all moments and how they teach and touch me......02  

JenniferMaxwell
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21 posted 2009-01-11 03:49 PM


Is that what happened, Grinch, being a Mod turned a nice guy like you into a Grinch?
Essorant
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22 posted 2009-01-11 03:56 PM


It is not so harsh that it needs to be removed.  I think we (including Ringo) will learn from and deal with it much better though mature discussion, rather than jumping to the delete button.


Grinch
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23 posted 2009-01-11 04:13 PM



No Jen, being a Grinch made me a bad Mod.


serenity blaze
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24 posted 2009-01-11 04:23 PM


I'm back.

And Jenn? I'm glad to hear that you did apply as a DM.

I was one once, and I discovered it was hard. So I'm a bit annoyed at the implication that I disrespect the moderating team.

I know most of ya'll are pretty careful readers, so you all know which words I typed and which ones were insinuated that I typed.

Leaving this post, here, as is, is akin to allowing offensive graffitti to stand, just "hoping" someone else will come along and write more clever slogans that will correct the situation.

As for my protestation of the pic? In any other thread I would find it only vaguely annoying, but on this one, it is like a snarky "NEENER NEENER NEENER" from the originating poster. (That's you Ringo-dude.)

As for an ideal situation?

In my own idealistic little world, Ringo himself would step in, be the gentleman that I became friends with, and seeing the error of his ways, he would ask that it be deleted. Because no, Ringo, you should not take this personally from me, you and I just happen to part ways on taste levels on this one. (That should frighten you very much.)

As for even handed-fairness of moderators at Pip? *smile*

You show me the parents of a very large family who boast that "we treated 'em all the same" and I'll show you an exceptionally entertaining episode of Dr. Phil, since that would result in some serious dysfunction.

The post, I still believe, ought to be removed.

The picture? Well, things used to run smoother when the place was smaller, and I concede that it must be a difficult prospect to ascertain the integrity of each photo. But I know a certain lady who did an exceptional job of that. And I hope my last sentence doesn't cancel out the heart of what I said initially in this:

THAT photo on this post shoots a metaphorical finger at the rules and tenets of Pip as I know it.

And like the others, while I'm gratified to be able to have a say in moderating duties once again (for a time) I don't understand why this one was made an exception.

And good luck Jenn. Deputy Moderating actually is a very difficult job. And the folks here generally do an excellent job.

I can count on one hand the amount of times I hit that inappropriate content button, and I believe three times was for my own post.


Ron
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25 posted 2009-01-11 04:58 PM


I've yet to hear anyone cite which Guideline Ringo's post breaches? Even Karen, when she clicked the Inappropriate Link, said, "I don't think it actually breaks any rules."

quote:
Why don’t you just move the thread to the Mod forum - chew the cud for as long as it takes - then let the person who complained and the original poster know why you are, or aren’t, letting the post stay.

That still happens, Grinch, but I try to discourage it. It's a bit like arresting someone and holding them for 72 hours without charging them; it's legal, but it never feels entirely kosher, especially when it happens to you.

I think 95 percent of the time, a thread that has to be moved (or removed) is acted upon quickly and decisively. When something is inappropriate, generally everyone knows it's inappropriate. In the other five percent of the cases, when discussion drag on for hours or even days, the thread rarely gets moved at all. Its worst offense was that it made a few people feel uncomfortable.

In my opinion, this is one of those threads.

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26 posted 2009-01-11 05:00 PM


I can assure you, Jenn, that your lack of respect for me causes no sleepless nights on my part and I doubt that it does for any other of the moderators you freely show disrespect for. If your views are not agreed with, you attack with insults and innuendos, as you are doing here....and you complain that you are not taken more seriously. Respect works both ways...
serenity blaze
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27 posted 2009-01-11 05:14 PM


I'd like to qualify that.

I just couldn't find a box to check, Ron.

Respect and Tolerance would be the problem here.

And that is subjective.


Marge Tindal
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28 posted 2009-01-11 05:14 PM


Yep, ... makes me feel "uncomfortable" alright~

Maybe we need to add a Can O' Worms Forum~

Surely this one would fit in there and it could even be one of those "Locked" Forums ... and if you don't like worms ... you don't need to go there~

Ron ... I do think that several of the posters feel that it could step on the toes of the loss of Respect and Tolerance guideline~

Personally, I feel it doesn't show RESPECT and ... my TOLERANCE is stretched to the breaking point with the belief that it may have been a (Half)-hearted attempt at humor on Ringo's part~

Oh well ... not everyone can do stand up comedy and remain standing~
INCLUDING ME

My vote is for Inappropriate based on my interpretation of that guideline~

serenity blaze
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29 posted 2009-01-11 05:15 PM


and um "Even Karen"???

Sheesh.


serenity blaze
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30 posted 2009-01-11 05:16 PM


Ha!

*slaps Margie* a high five!


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31 posted 2009-01-11 05:23 PM


marge, your stand-uo comedy is always a hit with me
JenniferMaxwell
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32 posted 2009-01-11 05:35 PM


Balladeer, how much respect do you have for a person who tells blatant, harmful lies about you or a person who mocks and belittles your race, religion or ethnic background? Don’t you do the exactly what you accuse me of doing, attack with insults and innuendos, and I’ll add sarcasm to the list just to round it out,  when someone disagrees with you? That post I was referring to was a perfect example of your doing everything on that list and the original post in this thread is nothing more than poorly disguised racism which, in my book, is a flagrant violation of the Respect and Tolerance guidelines.



Mysteria
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33 posted 2009-01-11 05:37 PM


Well when I read this post, uncomfortable didn't come to mind actually Ron as much as unpatriotic, disrespectful, racist, inaccurate, hateful, and bordering on defamation, not to mention in very poor taste.  Was it because it was Barack Obama, the future president, no, was it because it joked about his color, yes!  I immediately went to Membership Agreement and didn't find an infraction in those five rules but on reading the legal stuff below I thought I had, and here is what that said"

"You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use PipTalk Poetry Forums to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law."  I figures it was in violation of that alone, if we didn't have a rule in place to govern racial slurs.

Now with this link you have provided       I see that I am allowed to not like something posted, or someone can dislike something I post, as long as it is within the guidelines.  If I am governed by those six rules then no I can't find any "rule" that has been violated except this:

"Think before you post and make darn sure you can be as proud of your words in five years as you were when you wrote them. You are creating a legacy and should treat it as such."

Just be thankful this post was not about the Irish     See my point?

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34 posted 2009-01-11 05:50 PM


the original post in this thread is nothing more than poorly disguised racism which, in my book, is a flagrant violation of the Respect and Tolerance guidelines.

That's fine. You may name it anything you like in your book, Jennifer. The mods who have posted here don't think it goes that far. Neither does Ron. His words do actually carry some weight here and, as you well know, he is not one to abuse his authority. No, you don't need to agree with any of them but remember, that in the DM forum, we sometimes have discussions and differences of opinion that require quite an array of viewpoints and the ultimate decision may be reached by a consensus vote. If the vote goes against your views you simply have to suck it up and move on. That has happened to all of us. Make sure you are capable of that before thinking about joining it.

Grinch
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35 posted 2009-01-11 05:59 PM



quote:
In my opinion, this is one of those threads.


Personally I don’t think the original post is worth all the possible hassle and bickering it‘s likely to cause, but it’s your site Ron and your call.

quote:
The mods who have posted here don't think it goes that far.


Has Mysteria been demoted Mike?



quote:
Well when I read this post, uncomfortable didn't come to mind actually Ron as much as unpatriotic, disrespectful, racist, inaccurate, hateful, and bordering on defamation, not to mention in very poor taste.

Ron
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36 posted 2009-01-11 06:04 PM


Did you know that James Madison, our fourth President and the "Father of the Constitution," was only five feet, four inches tall and weighed in at about 100 pounds?

I'm not sure, guys, how pointing that out contravenes Respect and Tolerance?

In an ideal world, a leader's size and color would be nothing but irrelevant trivia. It offends people today, I think, only because race has previously been used as an implied pejorative. Pointing out that Barrack Obama is black is only an insult if you believe being black is an insult. And clearly, no one here believes that.

Moreover, as I've said several times in the past, politicians have voluntarily excluded themselves from most Respect and Tolerance rules. In a culture that depends on the freedom to ridicule our leaders, just about anything short of advocating violence against someone is going to be endured. We either have to stop all the jokes or be willing to abide the few we might personally find distasteful.

I suspect Marge hit the nail on the head. I won't pretend to speak for Ringo, but I suspect he thought he was making a joke, a slight play on words. Poking fun at our politicians is something of a tradition in the United States. Indeed, we have threads in here, I think, devoted to late night comedians slamming Presidential figures? As Marge said, the danger with such comedy, of course, is that when it's not funny it's really not funny. Personally, I think half of the sexual innuendo posted in these forums falls into that category, and ALL of the snide jokes referencing drugs and alcohol. Not having a sense of humor about something isn't against the rules, though.

quote:
and um "Even Karen"??? Sheesh.

Even, as in, you were the one who filed the report, Karen. There's nothing between the lines to read.



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37 posted 2009-01-11 06:12 PM


Pointing out someone's height, weight or race isn't necessarily an insult, making a joke out of them because of it is.
serenity blaze
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38 posted 2009-01-11 06:19 PM


Yep.

And I can admit when I'm wrong, too.

When I said that leaving grafitti up, hoping that it would inspire better slogans was a bad idea? <--paraphrased

I have reconsidered, but only in the particular case of this thread.

I'm so proud of everybody.

Good stuff from good people.

And ciao for now.

(Big Love Marathon tonight.)


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39 posted 2009-01-11 06:31 PM


No, Grinch. Mysteria has not been demoted and her thoughts and comments are always welcome.

If I am governed by those six rules then no I can't find any "rule" that has been violated except this:

"Think before you post and make darn sure you can be as proud of your words in five years as you were when you wrote them. You are creating a legacy and should treat it as such."


She states she can find no rule violated. Her "except this" is not a rule, it's a call to remind people to make posts they will be proud of....that's it.

Ron
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40 posted 2009-01-11 06:36 PM


quote:
Pointing out someone's height, weight or race isn't necessarily an insult, making a joke out of them because of it is can be.



I don't see the joke, I don't see the insult, either, but in any case, insulting Presidents is allowed.

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41 posted 2009-01-11 06:43 PM


She also said she thought it was a violation of the membership agreement.
JenniferMaxwell
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42 posted 2009-01-11 06:49 PM


Making fun of someone because of their racial heritage is demeaning to others in the same category.


Balladeer
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43 posted 2009-01-11 06:51 PM


I do not find where she said that. Perhaps I'm overlooking it? What she DID say was...

I think we have to let this one go, learn from it, move on, and rise above it.


Smart lady...

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44 posted 2009-01-11 06:55 PM


post #33 - the same one you quoted from in 39.
serenity blaze
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45 posted 2009-01-11 07:03 PM


I hope everybody who finds this offensive and falls under the realm of inappropriate content pops in to say so.

That's the best part for me and the only saving grace to this thread.

and oooops, there's my show!

Ron
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46 posted 2009-01-11 07:07 PM


Nice try, Jennifer. Were that true, however, (1) any insult you've made against a politician would have to be deleted, and (2), it would have the same exact effect as eliminating the possibility of saying anything negative about a public figure. That's not somewhere America really wants to go.



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47 posted 2009-01-11 07:08 PM


Yes, Jennifer, she explained what she "figgered", and then qualified it in the next paragraph.

She is entitled to figger anything she likes. As I said before, not everyone even in the DM forum agrees on everything. You seem to be keying on whatever comment of hers you can find to support your thoughts and ignoring everything else she said, like "moving on" and everything that Ron tried to explain, also. So be it...

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48 posted 2009-01-11 07:23 PM


Apples and oranges, Balladeer. In one paragraph she was talking about the Membership Agreement, in the other the Rules.

Ron, I'm truly sorry you can't understand how hurtful racial remarks are even when they're supposed to be jokes and I'm very disappointed you've chosen to leave not only this post but two others even more offensive and hurtful in what's supposed to be a "circle of family and friends".


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49 posted 2009-01-11 07:45 PM


No, Jennifer, that's not what it is SUPPOSED to be. It has always been, and will continue to be, a family of friends. Your discontent will not change that. If you do not feel you are a part of it, then that's regrettable but that won't change it, either.
Mysteria
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50 posted 2009-01-11 07:51 PM


Gee, I went on a 5k walk in the snow with ma wee dog, picked up a few groceries on the way, and came back to all this.  

To clarify, I simply stated what I thought of Ringo's post, and how I personally felt it made me feel.  I was sure it must have crossed some line because I did not think it funny period, and yes, racially slanted, and some agreed.  

Marge is right I would assume.  I can't speak for Ringo, but will also suppose from his lack of response it was just a poor attempt at political humor.  Just as I don't care for some of the stuff on Saturday Night Live, and have turned the channel, I am now turning the channel on this.

If Ron says it hasn't crossed a line in his house, then I accept that. I suppose I can find a purpose in the post, however "off-color" it seemed to me.   It got us all looking at the existing rules anyway.  

That is the beauty about being adults, we can agree to disagree, and move on.  That is the beauty of being a moderator too; we  talk it out very similar to what we did here then come to a conclusion.  That conclusion will never please everyone by the way.  So with that, I am off to make my salad.

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Whoville
51 posted 2009-01-11 07:56 PM



I found it derogatory at first Karen - but only because “half” denotes or conjures an image of “less than” in common usage. After reading it twice I just thought - so what - pointless thread ignore it. That was before all the subsequent replies - now I think it should be deleted because it’s eroding the tolerance and respect of members.

Besides someone might take someone’s eye out with all these handbags flying backwards and forwards and that worries me, being the shy retiring type.


Mysteria
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52 posted 2009-01-11 08:14 PM


Purse Fight

Actually, I laughed, and maybe I shouldn't have, explain that one will ya?   Could be it was not a racially charged video?

Essorant
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53 posted 2009-01-11 08:27 PM


It is all Sunshine's fault.  She took a fence of the topic and then everyone else just followed
Balladeer
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54 posted 2009-01-11 08:34 PM


She's always been a de-fence-ive kind of gal
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55 posted 2009-01-11 09:02 PM


OK, all... as is my Constitutionally guaranteed rights, time for the accused to face his detractors.

I have not been posting here as of late, and that is for my own reasons, rather than for any real lack of desire. For that reason, many of the people on this site don't know me, or do not really remember me. That is fine. I have more important things with which to concern myself. There are many who have posted complaints about my (apparently) tiny little one-liner who should remember me, and should know my history on this site as far as respect and such matters.
As is the case with the very great majority of the Moderators, I have absolute and total respect for other members' thoughts, feelings, and beliefs.
There is a particular member of this site whose thought are that the world is, or could be a completely Utopian place, and that every member of the Earth's population can get along and be together in love and peace if only we would be able to talk and understand each other's differences. While I will not name him (for not having the time to get his permission), most of the people who have been here more than an hour know who it is, and might possibly know that I count him among my closest friends on this site, even though he is a liberal Democrat (Oh, shucks.,.. I'm gonna catch it for that little JOKE). He and I agree on NOTHING except that the Earth is round, and America is the finest country on the planet, and yet he and I have had serious discussions outside of the Blue Pages on politics, and other such nonsense.
For ANYONE on here that has known me for more than 30 seconds to accuse me of.. oh, wait, let me look up the quote again...
quote:
wiping your feet on the Respect and Tolerance guidelines.

For anyone to accuse me of that is absolute and total nonsense. I understand that Jennifer has not gotten to know me, as I have not gotten to know her; however, without knowing me at all, she has decided that I- with malice aforethought- was being disrespectful is purely... rushing to judgment. Did you take the time to ask, or to research why it is I said that? I didn't think so.

Karen- I did not take this personally. Not from you, nor from anyone. For me to do so is to allow others to have entirely too much power over my life, and my emotions.
As for the removal... if I don't then I am not a gentleman? President-elect Obama, who appears to be a fairly level-headed and polite (shall we say, "gentlemanly"?) politicians around, made some very hurtful comments about the military and their participation in Iraq and Afghanistan (comments from Marine, Navy, and National Guard friends of mine, not my thoughts). Does it make him any less polite that he never apologized?  I didn't think so.
BTW... the picture? It was a gift from a female friend. You and I have had a disagreement on other matters before (shortly after your fair city was destroyed) and I immediately requested that the thread be removed from the site, and it was done within minutes. The picture you don't win. It is nothing personal, it is just that picture has been there and means absolutely nothing anywhere close to what you have seen.
It is, as a matter of fact, my publicity photo for my book. The bad boy was added after I completely and (almost irrevocably) irritated my landlord by telling her all about herself, and how screwed up she was for the sin she had committed that particular day. It was added by (as I said) a female friend because she felt it fit. (which it did).

Jennifer- On to you.
quote:
Clicking on inappropriate content seems to be a waste of time, especially  if it’s a moderator’s post or a post by a member of what could be described as the in clique.

This comment is one of the most disrespectful comments that I have seen in quite the while. It is a blatant insult to every person on this site who now has, or has in the past, carried the stars next to his or her name. While it might be popular to trounce those in "authority" (and I use that word solely due to my lack of a better on at the moment), to do so without ANY of the facts is irresponsible, and completely out of line. It shows that you are wiping your feet on the respect and tolerance guidelines. It outs you right down there in the slime hole that you have felt then need to place me in. I hope you enjoy your stay here.
As for me and the other Mod not responding immediately, just because you felt the need to complain about something: This is very simply a case of you needing to get over it. As you have been told before in a thread about politics and the election all those months ago, we do have lives. This is the FIRST time I have been back to the site since I started this thread just over 24 hours ago. I do not sit around waiting for someone to respond to my posts, or to police something that someone else might think is inappropriate. Besides. There is only a very small handful of people on here who have the power to unilaterally delete a thread, a post, or anything of the sort. The way it works, as you will soon find out, is that a post is brought into the Moderator's forum (such as serenity did), and then the Moderators discuss (and sometimes argue) the point. Only after a clear consensus has been reached is anything done, or not done as the case might be.
Also, your comment that ANY of my friends on the Moderator team would sit back and enjoy having power over the powerless is... well, I am not permitted to explain my true thoughts, as they would definitely be against the rules. When you are put in charge of the Teen Forum, and then you have a poster write something about cutting, then you have them replace it after it has been removed, then you have 4 more posters do posts that are likewise against regs, and then have the original post reposted numerous times (and all in the space of about 3 hours), and you are the one charged with keeping the peace, then you will truly understand how hard it is to be a Moderator. None of us are power-hungry morons. Masochists would be the better word.
As to your blanket charge that there are no posts by moderators or the "clique" that are removed... wrong again, there, kiddo. I have, personally, had more posts than I care to count taken into the Moderator's Forum, and have had TWO of them removed... even though I am a member of the Mod team. If anything, we are held to a higher standard because of the job that we have.
One last thing... the redundancy notice that we are to be given....
I did not ask to have all of those stars by my name. There were times that I did not want to be a Moderator due to time constraints, and was asked to hang out very simply because we have not enough people on this site who wish to take on that responsibility. You have already heard serenity and Grinch say that they were once a Mod, and has handed in her stars for the life of a normal poster. It isn't all just beer and skittles in that forum. I continue to do the job when I can out of love and respect for those who put their names and reputations on the line. While it might look like there are a great number of us, look through the forums and see how many people are doing double duty, and see how often you notice a new name in the Moderator spots... plain and simple: you don't. So, I will thank you in advance for your work as a Moderator.

I am gonna end my part on this with a few simple off-post, yet related comments.

1) I did not vote for our new President-to-be, and sincerely do not feel that he is going to be the savior that the liberals (most, but not all) are lifting him on high with. Looking back on the campaigns with hindsight and with all of the "evidence" that has come out, I would STILL not vote for him. I do not feel he is the man for the job. (Oh, heck... now the feminists are gonna get me for saying a "man" has to have the job... I can't win) HOWEVER... I sincerely hope that he does turn out to be the best president that this country has ever had. Lord knows (damn... now the non-Christians are gonna be upset) we could use that person these days. Of the Democrats in the primaries, Joe Biden was the one that I would have voted for, and he is close enough to the office. So, President Obama will have my total support until he gives me a reason to not support him.

2) I went into the Mod forum and asked that this post be removed. NOT because any of you have asked for it, but because it has created a sand storm that I did not expect, nor did I ask for. Had someone made a statement about the WHITE guy in the election that was inappropriate, not a thing would have been said by.. well, the one screaming the loudest... Yet a simple ONE-LINER has caused everyone's knickers to rise up into a bunch. Perhaps that is why I stopped getting into political discussions while the majority of the opposing comments are disrespectful, inappropriate, and given by a very, very, small minority (a minority of one, actually). I have asked that it be deleted, very simply because I am tired of hearing you yell.

BTW... do not bother responding, as this is the last I will be visiting this little thread. I have better things to do than to be vilified by people who don't even know me. (those of you not included know who you are) I am a better person than that, and will be spending my energies elsewhere.

What would you attempt to do...if you knew you could not fail?.
www.myspace.com/mindlesspoet

Marge Tindal
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56 posted 2009-01-11 10:17 PM


Ringo~
Should you just happen to find yourself back on this thread ... know that I applaud your honesty in your post~

Thank you for being a part of an effective and greatly admired group of TEAM members of the Moderators and Deputy Moderators at the PiP Blue Pages site~

*Huglets*
~*Marge*~

~*The sound of a kiss is not as strong as that of a cannon, but it's echo endures much longer*~
Email -               noles1@totcon.com

JenniferMaxwell
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57 posted 2009-01-11 10:21 PM


If you're sincere about wanting to delete your original post, post #1 in the thread, Ringo, I'm pretty sure you still have time to edit it with a post saying something like "self delete". But, being a moderator, you probably already knew that, right?

Balladeer
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58 posted 2009-01-11 10:31 PM


Some people are one of a kind!
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59 posted 2009-01-11 10:42 PM


Hey Bal~
Anybody knows that one-of-a-kind beats nobody ... and they really should fold 'em~
Ya' think ?
...
Me too~

~*The sound of a kiss is not as strong as that of a cannon, but it's echo endures much longer*~
Email -               noles1@totcon.com

Balladeer
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60 posted 2009-01-11 11:39 PM


Love ya, Margie
moonbeam
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61 posted 2009-01-12 08:01 AM


I agree with Ron and Balladeer!  I think Mysteria, Karen, Jenn and Marge are off beam here.

Let's face it, compared with what Jaime Fradera did in these threads:
/pip/Forum6/HTML/001639.html
/pip/Forum6/HTML/001693.html

where, amongst other things, he likened your President-elect to a mass murderer of Jews and a war criminal, this harmless little bit of inane fun from Ringo is hardly going to challenge the PiP tolerance threshold.

And on Ringo's picture Karen, I don't really get your point at all.  I mean I'd think that you'd be happy to see the male of the species reduced to his proper place.

JenniferMaxwell
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62 posted 2009-01-12 12:13 PM


I’m truly very sorry and feel rather ashamed, moonbeam, that I didn’t fight harder to get Jaime’s posts removed. Perhaps that’s part of the reason why this thread bothered me so much, was sort of a flashback reminder that I’d given up so easily and now a similar post by someone who knew that sort of post gets an easy pass .

Interesting to note even though Ringo’s requested that the mods delete his post, it’s still up. Makes me wonder if they’re questioning the sincerity of his request, or denying him the right to delete his own post.

serenity blaze
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63 posted 2009-01-12 12:24 PM


*shrug*

I'm gonna go work on my pop up book.

And Moonbeam? Those posts you linked bothered me too. One of such ilk disappeared when I made a comment that it was just sad that such diatribes continued.

Maybe I should have tried that tact this time as well.

I didn't expect that little button to work for me.

A lot of my little buttons don't work anymore.

I still think this thread could turn into something positive, since Ringo's humor accidentally brought up a valid point that I heard some pundits speaking of last week.

Is there a hyper-sensitivity going on with language now? Just as some people are unaware that referring to some people of certain races as "well-spoken" is offensive, perhaps I am unaware of that I am being overly sensitive.

Maybe someone with a better command of language and buttons can start a discussion about that. I'd be happy to read it.

Doubt I'll say much, but I'll be happy to read it.

Thanks everyone, for humoring me so kindly.


Essorant
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64 posted 2009-01-12 01:22 PM


No one is saying such things are not offensive.  But just being offensive doesn't mean something is to an extreme that the forum ought to jump to removing and deleting instead of dealing with it with some patience and respectful discussion. As mentioned earlier, even though it is not as easy, I think we all learn more from dealing with an issue maturely and respectfully, instead of mechanically removing or deleting it.


JenniferMaxwell
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65 posted 2009-01-12 04:24 PM


The part of your post about the rule regarding having a post deleted seems to have disappeared, Ess, but I'd like to address it anyway.

I’m not sure what your point was. Were you saying that even though Ringo is a moderator he wasn’t aware of that rule? Regardless, he still has time to edit the post himself, if he’s sincere about wanting it deleted, and by doing so, wouldn’t lose his posting privileges.

Now I'm curious as to why you (or someone) deleted it. Wasn't it factual or is it top secret or something?

I think having a discussion about racial slurs, innuendos, hate speech, etc., is a good thing. However, I don’t think you have to listen to it or read it over and over before you can have that discussion. If the point some have been trying to make is that you just have to ignore it and let it go, then I think they’re totally wrong. If you don’t speak up, aren’t you in effect condoning it with your silence?

serenity blaze
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66 posted 2009-01-12 04:35 PM


With perfect 20/20 hindisght, Jenn, I think that I should have introduced that idea as discussion instead of hitting "duh button".


Grinch
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67 posted 2009-01-12 06:24 PM


I think the moral of this tale is don’t hit the little button Karen, because if you do there’s a fair chance you’re going to be disappointed.

Posts get deleted or edited based on the decision of the Moderators, not because of anything you do, clicking a little button doesn’t affect their decision one way or the other. You’d be better off using your time to write a reply and voicing your opinion out in the open - it’s far more satisfying.

Besides as Ron said if a post hasn’t been removed quickly or decisively  it’s highly likely that it’s never going to be removed at all, which basically means you’re wasting your time trying to get it deleted.

Hitting the "Submit Reply" button makes much more sense:

"accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed"



serenity blaze
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68 posted 2009-01-12 06:39 PM


Sleeping with serenity is an entirely different matter.

*ahem* (I may be telling tales outta school but I heard she drools AND snores.)

But generally, you say things so well, I find myself nodding, just because it sounds right.

I'm profoundly sorry to say experience doesn't prove your point, and I'm sorrier to use my own sad excuse as a pivot, but I had a poem removed from Open for a mere asterisk, only to watch, the following week, as titles that described the sexual act in full display in Open.

Big "Wah?"

Sure it is.

But stuff like that can be infuriating.

(And I should have typed this with ribbons round my wrist on your behalf.)

I am sincere about hoping to view a discussion regarding the prickly persnicketty differences between saying, for example,

"Bush is an inarticulate expletive."

and saying that President-elect Barack Obama is "well-spoken."

I want to know if my jokes and comments are offensive.

I think it's difficult to agree to a creed of behavior if we are ignorant. Respect and tolerance needs to be addressed.

So...let's talk about it?

*not my forum*

so it's just a suggestion...


Grinch
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69 posted 2009-01-12 07:59 PM


I didn’t say the Moderators always get things right Karen, in fact I’d be amazed if they did. I was just pointing out the futility of trying to change their minds once they’ve made a decision or even trying to influence their decision one way or the other before they decide what to do.

That’s what clicking that little button amounts to - it sets you up for a possible fall.

I complained once to my Dad that a light switch in his kitchen only worked every now and then, he said it worked perfectly for him because he never used it. The inappropriate content button is exactly the same Karen - if you don’t use it you won’t be disappointed.

As far as what gets deleted goes that’s down to the Moderators and ultimately Ron, we get the chance to voice our opinions when we think they get it wrong but once you start believing you can actually change their minds you’re setting yourself up to be sorely disappointed. In that respect being a Mod is no different, sure you get the chance to voice your opinion behind closed doors but ultimately you’ve either got to swallow your principles, or “suck it up” as Mike put it, and go with the flow or prepare to be disappointed.

That’s not a criticism of how it is, it’s just an observation.


serenity blaze
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70 posted 2009-01-12 08:09 PM


I don't think I can change stuff.

Not all in one day (post).



But when a river runs through a continent?

ooooohhhhhhhhhhhhh....

(I always feel sexy typing to you.)

*blush*

Ron
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71 posted 2009-01-12 09:52 PM


quote:
The part of your post about the rule regarding having a post deleted seems to have disappeared, Ess, but I'd like to address it anyway. ... Now I'm curious as to why you (or someone) deleted it. Wasn't it factual or is it top secret or something?

It was deleted because I didn't have time to correct it. It was blatantly wrong and taken out of context, quoting an answer to an entirely different question. I was in the middle of something and didn't feel it warranted an interruption beyond removal.

quote:
Posts get deleted or edited based on the decision of the Moderators, not because of anything you do, clicking a little button doesn’t affect their decision one way or the other. You’d be better off using your time to write a reply and voicing your opinion out in the open - it’s far more satisfying.

The button is on every post, Grinch, because I can't be.

I could have labeled it, "Hey, guys, have you read this yet? I really think you should and soon."

It didn't fit.

I had this truly crazy idea that some of the people who frequent these forums might be willing to assume responsibility for what is posted here. I thought that some might find that satisfaction you're apparently seeking by helping support what we do here. Turns out "some" is a whole lot smaller than I hoped. But that's okay, because I appreciate the "some" all the more.

There's certainly nothing wrong with voicing an opinion out in the open, and I don't think doing so necessarily excludes the possibility of alerting staff there might be a problem. I just wish more people knew how to voice an opinion. No one yet has told me which rule was broken or WHY calling a black man black is demeaning or insulting. If someone said Obama couldn't be a good president because he was black, that would be racist. I would still allow it because bigots get to vote in America, too, but I would probably be the first person to "voice an opinion." Making a joke about Obama being the first black President isn't very funny, but I see no reason to label it racist. No one cried racism, after all, when the same exact title was applied to Bill Clinton?

Calling a person a bigot is a de facto insult because being a bigot is a bad thing. Calling a person black is only an insult if you think being black is an insult. In which case, one's search for bigotry should probably be directed inward.

serenity blaze
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72 posted 2009-01-12 10:11 PM


quote:
Calling a person a bigot is a de facto insult because being a bigot is a bad thing. Calling a person black is only an insult if you think being black is an insult. In which case, one's search for bigotry should probably be directed inward.


And this is exactly where I think we should start again. I don't believe that there's anything we can't discuss--I refuse to believe that, so why don't we take that as a new point of discussion.

I might learn something about why it bothered me so much.

Because I did try to ignore it.



  


Essorant
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73 posted 2009-01-12 11:56 PM


Jen,

quote:
I’m not sure what your point was. Were you saying that even though Ringo is a moderator he wasn’t aware of that rule?


You asked why Ringo's request for a deletion was not done by the site.  I was just pointing out that the Guidelines forewarn us that they are not obliged to make a deletion, therefore they were not obliged to delete Ringo's post even though he requested it.  That was the beginning and end of my "point".  I apologize if that was a misunderstanding on my part.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (01-13-2009 12:08 AM).]

Essorant
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74 posted 2009-01-13 12:49 PM


Ron

quote:
No one yet has told me which rule was broken or WHY calling a black man black is demeaning or insulting


I don't think any rule was broken, nor that anyone was suggesting "black" was being used as an insult.  The ill manner was treating a black man (Obama in this case) as if he doesn't rightly have the status of "black", particularily "first black president" because he is not all black and then suggesting (here is where the humour must be intended) that "(half) White Hope (not even, half-black) might be more appropriate.  

I think Mysteria, Midnitesun, and Balladeer  addressed the distastefulness of the post very appropriately.   But I admit, and hope they don't think it disrespectful for saying straight-out,  that Serenity and Jen overreacted a bit and took it out of proportion, somewhat like someone overscratching a mosquito bite and making it much worse than it actually is.  


Alison
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75 posted 2009-01-13 01:13 AM


I am honestly puzzled by this thread.  I am the only woman in my workplace.  I work with a variety of races.  When I was told last summer (by an Alaskan Native) that I was his "last great white hope" was I supposed to have been offended?  I am white.  I am great (or so I like to think).  And, I appreciated the humor behind his words.  

So what is the issue of the original post again?  I guess the insult went over my head.

My confusion stems from the exchange that I recently had in the alley about Governor Palin.  Now we all know how that story ended.  However, in the exchange that I was part of - she was pretty much smeared with derogatory remarks.

Is it acceptable because she is white, Republican, and an easy target?

A

Balladeer
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76 posted 2009-01-13 01:24 AM


...and the ones most offensive to her seem to be the most offended about this post. Yes, Alison, that does seem a little strange, doesn't it?
moonbeam
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77 posted 2009-01-13 06:11 AM



quote:
...and the ones most offensive to her seem to be the most offended about this post. Yes, Alison, that does seem a little strange, doesn't it?

Balladeer, I don't see how this comment is anything other than a less than flattering comment upon other posters at PiP.  Does it strengthen the circle of friends?  Does it comply with PiP guidelines?

And likening the Palin thread to this one is a denigration of all the people who contributed well thought out comments about the controvertial nature of Sarah Palin's beliefs and proposed policies.  

This thread started with little more than a joke about something Obama can't do anything about: his racial origin.  The Palin thread was principally a serious discussion about the policies, political history and character of a candidate for the vice presidency.  

Certainly the thread in question got heated, and certainly tempers got frayed to the point where Ron saw fit to close the thread (which I still think was a wrong decision), but nevertheless it was an entirely different situation to the one we have here.

nakdthoughts
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Between the Lines
78 posted 2009-01-13 06:23 AM


the sad thing is that after reading this and another thread it seems there are always some people that can never see both sides or even  compromise...it's always like a war of words and then  one wonders why the mid east or other parts of the world continue to fight till their end is met.
If we can't even come to a compromise or concessions in this small group of fairly intelligent peoples why would we expect it to be any different in the larger sense!? (rhetorical)   Just my opinion

Balladeer
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79 posted 2009-01-13 09:41 AM


Does it strengthen the circle of friends?  Does it comply with PiP guidelines?

Does it comply with PIP guidelines? Yes. Does it strengthen the circle of friends? Is everything we submit required to strengthen that circle? No. Even families will have arguments and I simply pointed out a fact that is obvious in this thread. If you wish to deny it, fine. You choose THAT comment to ask if it strengthens the circle? I can think of a few thousand others here that your question would be better asked about.


The Palin thread was principally a serious discussion about the policies, political history and character of a candidate for the vice presidency.

Of course. Let's take a look at that principally serious discussion...

She's unqualified, plus she needs a serious makeover. Pearls with fleece, get real! And the do, that went out in the 80's. No McCain and no big hair!  
Palin just said NUK-U-LER. Please, not four more years of Bushisms! Send the big hair hockey Mom back to moose country!
what’s she got against polar bears? Isn’t killing moose enough for her? And aerial hunting - fly by killing, no need to get your Bean boots muddy or bloody.
Well, I’m off to make a big bowl of popcorn to munch on while I wait for the next episode of the Johnny and (she's his "soulmate") Sarah Show. It’s gonna be a real doozy!
In my book, Palin is a very selfish, shallow, domineering person and a lousy mother.
So what do you think Huan Yi, will it be Iditarod Dad or Big Hair Hockey Mom holding the shotgun to Levi's back? Yep, a scene right out of HeeHaw.
Oh good, guess you won't have any problem then with me calling Palin Car Wash Sarah. Thanks guys!
She’s a piece of eye candy tossed into the mix to take media’s focus off Johnny McSame’s bomb bomb Iran and a hundred more years of war.
Send her back to moose country and give Johnny a do over!
Palin cut funding for pregnant teens, teens in crisis and special needs children, but found room in the budget to promote her own bloody agenda, aerial hunting.
Seems Barracuda Sarah’s in hiding being tutored in Neocon 101. Maybe if we get really lucky the McCain campaign might forget which hidey-hole they put her in.
Back to moose country for a remedial course in Economics 101.


So what has Jennifer pointed out about the policies, political history and character of Sarah Palin here? She insulted Palin on her looks, her clothing style, her diction, her moose hunting, her motherhood,  her being a big hair hockey mom, her being a piece of eye candy only....please stop me when I mention something that actually dealt with policies, political history and character. She also insulted the state of Alaska and its' citizens, and people who disagreed with her.

She is the one leading the charge here on the incredulity that someone could post a  joke about Obama and his racial origin. My statements stands. The most offensive one in that post comes across as the most offended here. Ringo meant it as a poor attempt at humor. Some have decided to take that attempt and make a major issue out of it, complete with indignant outrage, either real or pretended.

The point is this........did Jennifer have the right to make those insults and comments in the other post? Yes, she did. As Ron pointed out, when one becomes a politician, they are fair game. That's what they sign on for. That is also what he had said in THIS thread. Personally, I don't understand the frontal assault here. If it was badly done, ignore it. How hard is that? Instead we have attacks on the poster, attacks on the moderators, attacks on the running of the site itself....and for what purpose? Just to be controversial? Just to tone up the outrage muscles? Shakespeare was right.

but nevertheless it was an entirely different situation to the one we have here.

To you, perhaps. It does not surprise me you would see it that way.

serenity blaze
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80 posted 2009-01-13 12:06 PM


I'm beginning to feel personally attacked.

I was not the only one offended.

I shouldn't know, but I do happen to know that others hit that little button behind me only to find a notice that this incident had already been reported. If any one would care to read carefully, some of those people were brave enough to say so publically.

All my pleas for a civil discussion of language have been ignored as well, so to accuse me of creating discord for my personal amusement is not only unfair and insulting, it's not even accurate.

Ignore this one too. *shrug*

Balladeer
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81 posted 2009-01-13 12:51 PM


Serenity gal, that was not aimed at you at ALL! You stated your opinion and concerns, which you have every right to do. You didn't go off the wall or begin insulting the site management or continue beating a dead horse, even after Ron explained why the post was still here. You have always been a class act
Essorant
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82 posted 2009-01-13 01:05 PM


I don't think Serenity can't be blamed for anything, just like others have authored some of the mess, so did she.  It was not necessary to exploit the fact that she clicked the "inappropriate" button and then augment the distraction by making ado about Ringo's picture too.  It just avoided addressing Ringo's words themselves and actually expressing why she disagreed with them.  Instead she made the fact that she clicked the inappropriate button, and her thoughts about his picture the issue.  Just like most of the rest of us fell into talking about removal of posts, rules, moderation, etc, instead of directly addressing the post itself.  How much we might disagree and reasonably argued about Ringo's words in a right manner, if we hadn't distracted the thread by resorting to trying to speak for the rules and moderation of the site and make that the issue instead.  
 


serenity blaze
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83 posted 2009-01-13 01:05 PM


If questioning the site management is an insult, then I'll have to concede that as much as I love this place and call it home, I now feel more strongly than ever that this thread is inappropriate.

I don't understand.

Nobody really wants it here, and yet here it is.

I did hope that it would get better, though.

If sometimes starts a new thread that attempts a civil discussion regarding language, political correctness, and yes, sensitivies to all of those whether insensitive or hyper-sensitive, I think that would be a great and informative thread.

Now if you'll excuse me, it isn't often that I have other things to do, but today is one of those days.

Be nice to one another, okay?

sigh


Alison
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84 posted 2009-01-13 01:07 PM


First, I am not attacking anyone.  I am not dismissing the discussion (and well thought out replies) that follow the original comment.  I can understand that people will find the "half white hope" remark offensive.  However, I also realize that there is a person posting to this thread who has made comments (I am paraphrasing) about not letting this remark go unchallenged because the remark is wrong, etc.  

My question remains.

In the Palin argument - the level of disrespect towards her as a person and human was blatant.

Why is this?

Now, I don't want to make this another Palin discussion.  However I see part of this discussion as a pot-kettle-black situation and that makes me wonder why.  Why is fair and understandable to attack one politcal candidate with ugly remarks (that, no, are not racist - they are equally character damaging though) and cry out that another is morally wrong?

I don't think that Ringo's remark was humorous, but I also don't see that it was a racial slur.

----

quote:
The Palin thread was principally a serious discussion about the policies, political history and character of a candidate for the vice presidency.


Excuse me?  You are kidding, right?
Alison


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85 posted 2009-01-13 01:15 PM


If questioning the site management is an insult

C'mon, serenity gal. Why would you say that? let me make it clearer....questioning the site management in an insulting manner is insulting....ok?  

Essorant, I agree. Serenity cannot be blamed for, or accused of, anything.

Essorant
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86 posted 2009-01-13 01:20 PM



That wasn't what I said Balladeer   

Balladeer
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87 posted 2009-01-13 01:43 PM


Sorry, Essorant. I misunderstood I don't think Serenity can't be blamed for anything

I'll be more careful    Off to work...have a good day, all.

moonbeam
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88 posted 2009-01-13 01:59 PM


No Alison and Balladeer I wasn't kidding about the Palin thread.

In well over 200 replies you picked out a few that had more emotion than logic.  How clever of you. Now do you want me to list 10 times as many serious points from the thread?

Needless to say there were many more other replies that were more measured, including most of our exchanges Alison. Next time perhaps I'll think twice before having a discussion with you if you are just going to dismiss it as a joke.

I'm kind of disappointed at your comments here, but never mind.

PS Oh and I chose THAT comment Balladeer simply because you were the one making it .

[This message has been edited by moonbeam (01-13-2009 02:57 PM).]

Grinch
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89 posted 2009-01-13 03:14 PM


quote:
I had this truly crazy idea that some of the people who frequent these forums might be willing to assume responsibility for what is posted here.


It’s not crazy Ron, there are people who accept that responsibility - they’re called Moderators - and, on the whole, they do a pretty good job. The button doesn’t give ordinary members any responsibility beyond the ability to flag up a potential problem post so that it can be dealt with quickly by the Mods but, like my dad’s light switch, the perception seems to be that it doesn’t work.

quote:
If it was badly done, ignore it. How hard is that? Instead we have attacks on the poster, attacks on the moderators, attacks on the running of the site itself....and for what purpose? Just to be controversial? Just to tone up the outrage muscles?



If there are personal attacks aimed at the poster or specific Mods Mike delete them, if you don’t like criticism of the methodology of the Mods or the running of the site, neither of which are against the rules, then why not follow your own advice and ignore them. How hard is that?

Or are you simply toning up your outrage muscles?

[This message has been edited by Grinch (01-13-2009 06:36 PM).]

Balladeer
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90 posted 2009-01-13 03:46 PM


PS Oh and I chose THAT comment Balladeer simply because you were the one making it .  My point exactly, moonbeam

It’s not crazy Ron, there are people who accept that responsibility - they’re called Moderators
The button doesn’t give ordinary members any responsibility beyond the ability to flag up a potential problem post


Grinch, far be it from me to speak for Ron but I get the feeling from his post there he was also referring to the personal responsibility of every member here. If you feel that ordinary members have no responsibility then it would be like advocating that there is nothing wrong with dumping your trash in the street since it's the trashman's responsibility to clean it up. It's just a matter of personal pride, that's all.

Believe me, I do ignore it. As I mentioned earlier I don't lose sleep over any of it and, when I turn off the computer, I turn off everything in it. I simply brought it up to show that it does exist here and to ask people to question themselves why. My outrage muscles atrophied years ago

Grinch
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91 posted 2009-01-13 04:44 PM



quote:
Grinch, far be it from me to speak for Ron but I get the feeling from his post there he was also referring to the personal responsibility of every member here.


The ordinary members here have no responsibility or obligation to report possibly inappropriate threads, in the same way that people have no responsibility to report people dropping trash in the street.

It would be nice if they did but it’s no big deal if they don’t, if it were Ron would make it a condition of membership and then tie himself and the Mods in knots trying to enforce it.

The button doesn’t work because when people click it the threads they’re reporting don’t go away, the fact that there’s a very good reason why they don’t doesn’t come into it.  If you’re the second person to try to click it you get a message that it’s already been clicked and no explanation as to why the post hasn’t been deleted, whether the mods are still discussing it or whether the issue has disappeared into a black hole.

If someone drops trash in the street and I report it only to see the same person dropping trash the next day ,and the day after that, the obvious conclusion is that reporting it is a waste of time. Maybe the system should allow multiple reporters, and anyone who reports it could be rewarded by receiving a notification of the subsequent decision. They may not agree with that decision but at least they’ll know their opinion has been duly noted and their participation is appreciated.

If you click the button and the perception is that it doesn’t seem to work you shouldn’t be surprised when people find other ways to exercise their outrage muscles.


serenity blaze
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92 posted 2009-01-13 05:16 PM




I'm back.

Not to add anything, but to let you all know I do love you.

I may be quiet for a while, and I don't want that misinterpreted. I should be back Thursday, possibly babbling and tripping on Demerol. I ask for apologies in advance if that happens.

I am ...going to bed.

Love to all! (Really.)




JenniferMaxwell
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93 posted 2009-01-13 06:57 PM


"If you’re the second person to try to click it you get a message that it’s already been clicked and no explanation as to why the post hasn’t been deleted, whether the mods are still discussing it or whether the issue has disappeared into a black hole."

One thing I've always wondered is if second, third, fourth, etc., clicks are reported. In other words, do the mods actually know how many are clicking inappropriate content? Also, after the first click, you can't indicate what rule you think has been violated or what you feel is inappropriate about the post.

I've clicked many times, and nearly as many times have never seen a post or gotten a reply that would indicate a decision has been made. You're left hanging and wondering.


  

Grinch
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Whoville
94 posted 2009-01-13 07:43 PM



quote:
One thing I've always wondered is if second, third, fourth, etc., clicks are reported.


No.

As I understand it the button is designed to bring the thread to the attention of a passing Mod by creating a thread in the DM forum, it’s not designed to measure how many people are offended. Clicking it after someone else is a waste of time.

“This thread, however, has already been reported by someone with similar concerns and is being discussed by our team of Moderators. While we know additional reports would be valuable to that discussion, we have no easy way to record them without also losing focus.”

“We have no easy way to record them”

I’ve always thought that this was misleading.

I don’t disbelieve that a solution doesn’t presently exist but I think you’re underestimating your ability a bit Ron with the “no easy way“ comment. I don’t know that much about puters but couldn’t you simply log additional reports to a file then generate an email reply from that file to let all the members know what the final decision was?

Or perhaps you could just log a blank comment on the DM thread with the members details, that would show you how many people found the thread offensive without causing a loss of focus. You’d have to filter out multiple reports from the same member but that shouldn’t be too hard.


Greeneyes
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95 posted 2009-01-13 08:03 PM


As a courtesy, the Moderator who handles this issue should email with an explanation of the final resolution""""

more times then not, we do email members with a final result...however if you submit a post with no name we cant email the poster with a final result.... keep in mind this is a volunteer/courtesy action...

~~**~~
I never let one moment define me,
I define myself by all moments and how they teach and touch me......02  

Ron
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96 posted 2009-01-13 08:14 PM


quote:
The ordinary members here have no responsibility or obligation to report possibly inappropriate threads, in the same way that people have no responsibility to report people dropping trash in the street.

That's accurate, Grinch, only to the extent that no one here has any responsibility or obligation to do squat. Not the Members, not the Moderators, not even me. The benefits when someone assumes some responsibility, however, accrue to everyone. One corollary to that is that the more people willing to assume responsibility, the more benefits accrue to everyone. Another corollary is that you get to take and take and take and will never be asked, let alone forced, to give anything in return.

quote:
It would be nice if they did but it’s no big deal if they don’t, if it were Ron would make it a condition of membership and then tie himself and the Mods in knots trying to enforce it.

It's a very big deal. If it weren't, it wouldn't be there. Your logic is flawed, Grinch, perhaps colored by your experience with government. Generally, I try to avoid making rules at all and I definitely try to steer clear of rules that can't be enforced. You'll find there are no rules stating you have to use the Submit button, no mandates that require clicking on the Edit icon every day, and indeed no stipulations on most of the tools provided in hopes of making this a more comfortable place. We operate under as assumption that people generally get out of something in relative proportion to what they put it into it. I don't have to try to enforce that one, either; the universe seems to do a pretty good job without my help.

quote:
The button doesn’t work because when people click it the threads they’re reporting don’t go away ...

Wrong again. The button actually works pretty well, just like those fire hydrants along the street work fairly well . . . even if you personally don't see them in action very often. Fortunately for all of us, those who need to use them know how they work.

What you're missing, Grinch, is that the people who are usually willing to report Inappropriate Content are almost always the same people willing to devote some of their personal time to dealing with it. They get to see not just the start of the story, where not much happens, but also the middle and the end. Deputy Moderators volunteer to spend two weeks working in a forum of their choice and helping with the unpleasantries in that forum. Most of them don't just go away when their two weeks are over, and none of them stop being Deputy Moderators. They still have access to the private DM forums and, far more importantly, they still have the skills and knowledge set that represent the culture of pipTalk staff. We only have a few hands on deck at any given time (usually far too few), but we have lots and lots of eyes out there telling those hands where they are needed. Without their help, this place would long ago have turned into your metaphorical trash-filled street.

Our DM Program, as far as I know, is unique. I've seen no other on-line Community utilizing anything even remotely similar. We've had close to 200 people participate since 2001, and I think in almost every possible respect it's been a tremendous success. To me, our Moderating staff is the heart and soul of pipTalk, and frankly, if everyone else went away I believe we would still have a thriving community, a very real circle of friends. It would just be smaller and probably a whole lot calmer.

I don't expect you to fully understand it, Grinch. You've made several comments, like suggesting Balladeer should delete posts in a forum where he's not a Moderator, that demonstrate you don't quite get it. And that's perfectly okay. Most of us never have to know what makes the fire hydrant work, we just need to trust that it will. I'd like to think that most of our Community trusts that someone is back there trying to keep things running smoothly, even if they never get to see the fevered bursts of activity spurred when someone reports a potential problem.

quote:
Or perhaps you could just log a blank comment on the DM thread with the members details, that would show you how many people found the thread offensive without causing a loss of focus.

That assumes we should care how many people found something offensive? If we're talking about a majority of the community, I might be amenable to a democratic vote. If we're talking a handful of vocal dissenters, I couldn't care less about their numbers.

Once Staff is aware of a thread, the Inappropriate Content link has served its purpose. If people want to make their voices heard they should use a different tool to do so.



Alison
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97 posted 2009-01-13 08:41 PM


moonbeam,

I don't dismiss any of these threads as jokes.  My stance in the previous discussion about Palin was that many of the points made about her were shallow and insulting.  

I believe that if the Palin discussion was dismissed it was by you in the following response:

quote:
And likening the Palin thread to this one is a denigration of all the people who contributed well thought out comments about the controvertial nature of Sarah Palin's beliefs and proposed policies.  


So be it.  That is your opinion.

quote:
Next time perhaps I'll think twice before having a discussion with you if you are just going to dismiss it as a joke.



Please do not put words in my mouth or in my post - I did not think that the Palin discussion was a joke.  I don't think that this discussion is a joke.  If you decide not to converse with me any longer that's your choice.

Alison

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98 posted 2009-01-13 09:09 PM


Does most content reported by people usually end up being removed though?  



Ron
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99 posted 2009-01-13 09:28 PM


quote:
Does most content reported by people usually end up being removed though?

No. In fact, most content reported by Moderators ultimately isn't removed.

Reporting problems is liberal and encourages everyone to voice an opinion. Removing posts, on the other hand, is conservative. We don't do it if it can be reasonably avoided.

moonbeam
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100 posted 2009-01-14 04:20 AM



quote:

moonbeam quote:The Palin thread was principally a serious discussion about the policies, political history and character of a candidate for the vice presidency.

Excuse me?  You are kidding, right?
Alison


quote:


I don't dismiss any of these threads as jokes.
Alison


Er, you just did.  

Come on Alison, just because there was a lot you didn't like in the Palin thread, doesn't mean that there wasn't a good deal of sensible discussion about the woman and her views.  Or do you deny that?

Alison
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101 posted 2009-01-14 10:46 AM


moonbeam,

quote:
And likening the Palin thread to this one is a denigration of all the people who contributed well thought out comments about the controvertial nature of Sarah Palin's beliefs and proposed policies.  



I misread your statement and apologize (or is it apolgise - I never remember and am too sleepy to look it up) and thought that you were dismissing the Palin thread when comparing it to this thread.  That is where my kidding remark stemmed from.  That's my mistake and on me.  Again, I am sorry.  I do not dismiss that thread - I did not dismiss it while participating in it.  

However, you and I may differ on some aspects that we consider important about the Palin thread.  There were many thoughtful discussions within it.  There were also many examples about bias and personal ridicule that will always blink like neon signs.

So even though I twisted your comment in my brain, I remain confused.  

Alison

moonbeam
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102 posted 2009-01-14 01:36 PM


Ah, well now I mainly agree with you.
Bob K
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103 posted 2009-01-14 09:30 PM




Dear Folks,

          I read the joke that began this.

     I thought the humor turned on the differences between black and white as races.  In the set up everybody was supposed to agree that "The first Black President" was an important milestone in the progress toward "equality."

     The switch that was supposed to make the joke funny was to suggest that Obama wasn't "black" at all, thus stealing any possible sense of happiness a black person might feel over the event, and crediting it to Senator Obama's White mother.

     The joke being, I guess, that once again, Black gets dealt the same old slap across the face, and isn't that funny.  

     That's the way I understood it, and I actually didn't find it funny.  I've heard Jewish jokes like that, and I didn't find those funny either.  I don't mind jewish jokes or black jokes by themselves, but I like them to turn on more than a slap at the religion or the genetics of the matter.  

     The purpose of a joke, ideally, should be to entertain others.  To tell a joke is to share a pleasure.

     This joke was a failure of astonishing proportions, and I'm sorry that Ringo had to experience it.  It must be like a nightmare that keeps on giving and won't go away.

     Maybe we could just very quietly let this thing die and  give ourselves a chance to stop insulting each other, unless there are people who think there is some seriously useful reason in continuing to do so.  That it builds understanding or community or something.

     Yours, Bob Kaven

Balladeer
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104 posted 2009-01-14 10:20 PM


You are right, Bob. The thread should have stopped after 8 comments. Instead here we are..

Moonbeam, it's the same old ploy. Over a dozen comments insulting Palin personally you dismiss because there were "also" some good comments but one against Obama is horrific. Goose and gander material...

moonbeam
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105 posted 2009-01-15 05:23 AM



quote:
You are right, Bob. The thread should have stopped after 8 comments. Instead here we are..

Moonbeam, it's the same old ploy. Over a dozen comments insulting Palin personally you dismiss because there were "also" some good comments but one against Obama is horrific. Goose and gander material...

With your first comment Balladeer I entirely agree.  This thread would have been better locked or removed as being a bad joke likely to stir unecessary trouble.

As it was it broadened and comparisons with other threads invited, and now indeed, here we are ...

Just to put you straight:

1  I have never said the subject of this thread was "horrific" or even offensive, in fact if you look back I said the reverse, I agreed with you and Ron.  

2  I have never "dismissed" the personal comments on Palin.  What I said was that in a thread of well over 200 posts there was good and bad (all who participated in that thread including you and me contributed to the over emotional bad), you chose to highlight some of that bad - my view is that there was more than enough good to make the thread worthwhile and interesting.

3  It was Alison who mentioned the Palin thread, and to some extent it was a diversion because the comparison I was really highlighting was the comparison between this and the Jaime Fradera threads. Ironically I was pointing out that you were right (under PiP rules) to play down the significance of the opening subject of this thread, given what had previously been allowed in the Fradera threads.  

nakdthoughts
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106 posted 2009-01-15 05:30 AM


"I've heard Jewish jokes like that, and I didn't find those funny either.  I don't mind jewish jokes or black jokes by themselves..."

Well I do, Bob. I find it all distasteful no matter what the...


M

[This message has been edited by nakdthoughts (01-15-2009 06:38 AM).]

Bob K
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107 posted 2009-01-15 05:41 PM




Well, there you go, Naked Thoughts!  Upsetting to hear for many of us, and you would not be a good member for an audience of Ringo's humor.  Nor for Jackie Mason's, once he gets rolling, for that matter, if you are a good descriptor of your own sense of the absurd.  Myself, I don't find Jackie Mason racist, though perhaps you do.

     I have, in my recent reading, run across an interesting gloss on Moses Maimonides commentary on speech in Joel L. Kraemer's fascinating new biography of the man.
(pages 184-85, if you're interested).  Maimonides suggests speech falls into five catagories: 1) Obligatory; 2) Prohibited; 3) Reprehensible; 4) Meritorious; and 5) Permissible.

     I'd suggest that much of the ill feeling generated in this particular thread has come from the confusion of Prohibited and Reprehensible speech.  While many of us would like to think that the joke in question is merely reprehensible, in the terms Maimonides proposes it seems more likely to fit the catagory of Prohibited, which includes "bearing false witness, lying, slandering, calumniating, and vilifying, as well as obscenity and slander."  Reprehensible speech, on the other hand, "has no utility for a person and is neither obedience or disobedience to God."

     Like Ringo, I have an occasional weakness for both Prohibited and Reprehensible speech.   I do try, but as a 12th Century Jewish sage, I'm pretty much a flat bust.

     I will keep working on it, though, as best I can.  I beg some understanding, though.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven

nakdthoughts
Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200
Between the Lines
108 posted 2009-01-15 06:26 PM


Bob, Jackie Mason was Jewish. If he chose to joke about himself and his life that's a different  "story" than  others who are not Jewish or Black.  I wasn't commenting on Ringo's  supposed joke or comment. I knew it would bring about many differing opinions. I was  expressing my feeling on your comment.

Oh, forget it...
(I just erased my whole  response because it becomes too personal on my side)
I don't want to get into a word battle on this thread that seems to just irritate the more one reads. And unless you  grew up  hearing those jokes and comments and falicies...you wouldn't understand.

Sighing,
M  (I won't be responding on this)

Bob K
Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208

109 posted 2009-01-15 10:27 PM




Dear Naked Thoughts,

                        I was pretty much the only Jew in my class for most of my grade-school time in Ohio. I didn't like that.

     I had to attend a segregated high school for my final year when my folks moved to Virginia in 1965.  I didn't like that either.

     I did grow up hearing "those" jokes and fallacies.

     A lot of them are painful, wrongheaded, sadistic and cruel.  And some are funny.  

     I'm not telling you to do anything different for yourself.  Your understanding of me, however, is off base.  My understanding is agnostic, but I was born Jewish, I went to a Presbyterian College and my practice is taoist, as closely as I can understand it.

     Whatever my past or present, I find I laugh at whatever catches my sense of humor.  And I've never been able to make it play by any set of rules that were acceptable to anything approaching polite society.  It seems coincidental that actual cruelty and racism is something I've never actually found funny.  I hope I don't surprise myself in the future that way, I'd be upset.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven



rwood
Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793
Tennessee
110 posted 2009-01-15 11:45 PM


Ringo,

Obama has made a point to address himself as a black man, and it's his right to establish his identity as he sees fit, which from where he's standing, his shoes matter most to me.

Appearances are deceiving. Melungeon means I'm not half anything, and we better hope Obama isn't half the man he needs to be in the oval office.

As far as your post being offensive? Which one do you want to deal with? The Black, Scots-Irish or Cherokee in me? I've got more Hope for you than most

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