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Passions in Poetry

The Great (Half) White Hope

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moonbeam
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100 posted 01-14-2009 04:20 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam


quote:

moonbeam quote:The Palin thread was principally a serious discussion about the policies, political history and character of a candidate for the vice presidency.

Excuse me?  You are kidding, right?
Alison


quote:


I don't dismiss any of these threads as jokes.
Alison


Er, you just did.  

Come on Alison, just because there was a lot you didn't like in the Palin thread, doesn't mean that there wasn't a good deal of sensible discussion about the woman and her views.  Or do you deny that?
Alison
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101 posted 01-14-2009 10:46 AM       View Profile for Alison   Email Alison   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alison

moonbeam,

quote:
And likening the Palin thread to this one is a denigration of all the people who contributed well thought out comments about the controvertial nature of Sarah Palin's beliefs and proposed policies.  



I misread your statement and apologize (or is it apolgise - I never remember and am too sleepy to look it up) and thought that you were dismissing the Palin thread when comparing it to this thread.  That is where my kidding remark stemmed from.  That's my mistake and on me.  Again, I am sorry.  I do not dismiss that thread - I did not dismiss it while participating in it.  

However, you and I may differ on some aspects that we consider important about the Palin thread.  There were many thoughtful discussions within it.  There were also many examples about bias and personal ridicule that will always blink like neon signs.

So even though I twisted your comment in my brain, I remain confused.  

Alison
moonbeam
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102 posted 01-14-2009 01:36 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Ah, well now I mainly agree with you.
Bob K
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103 posted 01-14-2009 09:30 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Folks,

          I read the joke that began this.

     I thought the humor turned on the differences between black and white as races.  In the set up everybody was supposed to agree that "The first Black President" was an important milestone in the progress toward "equality."

     The switch that was supposed to make the joke funny was to suggest that Obama wasn't "black" at all, thus stealing any possible sense of happiness a black person might feel over the event, and crediting it to Senator Obama's White mother.

     The joke being, I guess, that once again, Black gets dealt the same old slap across the face, and isn't that funny.  

     That's the way I understood it, and I actually didn't find it funny.  I've heard Jewish jokes like that, and I didn't find those funny either.  I don't mind jewish jokes or black jokes by themselves, but I like them to turn on more than a slap at the religion or the genetics of the matter.  

     The purpose of a joke, ideally, should be to entertain others.  To tell a joke is to share a pleasure.

     This joke was a failure of astonishing proportions, and I'm sorry that Ringo had to experience it.  It must be like a nightmare that keeps on giving and won't go away.

     Maybe we could just very quietly let this thing die and  give ourselves a chance to stop insulting each other, unless there are people who think there is some seriously useful reason in continuing to do so.  That it builds understanding or community or something.

     Yours, Bob Kaven
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104 posted 01-14-2009 10:20 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You are right, Bob. The thread should have stopped after 8 comments. Instead here we are..

Moonbeam, it's the same old ploy. Over a dozen comments insulting Palin personally you dismiss because there were "also" some good comments but one against Obama is horrific. Goose and gander material...
moonbeam
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105 posted 01-15-2009 05:23 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam


quote:
You are right, Bob. The thread should have stopped after 8 comments. Instead here we are..

Moonbeam, it's the same old ploy. Over a dozen comments insulting Palin personally you dismiss because there were "also" some good comments but one against Obama is horrific. Goose and gander material...

With your first comment Balladeer I entirely agree.  This thread would have been better locked or removed as being a bad joke likely to stir unecessary trouble.

As it was it broadened and comparisons with other threads invited, and now indeed, here we are ...

Just to put you straight:

1  I have never said the subject of this thread was "horrific" or even offensive, in fact if you look back I said the reverse, I agreed with you and Ron.  

2  I have never "dismissed" the personal comments on Palin.  What I said was that in a thread of well over 200 posts there was good and bad (all who participated in that thread including you and me contributed to the over emotional bad), you chose to highlight some of that bad - my view is that there was more than enough good to make the thread worthwhile and interesting.

3  It was Alison who mentioned the Palin thread, and to some extent it was a diversion because the comparison I was really highlighting was the comparison between this and the Jaime Fradera threads. Ironically I was pointing out that you were right (under PiP rules) to play down the significance of the opening subject of this thread, given what had previously been allowed in the Fradera threads.  
nakdthoughts
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106 posted 01-15-2009 05:30 AM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

"I've heard Jewish jokes like that, and I didn't find those funny either.  I don't mind jewish jokes or black jokes by themselves..."

Well I do, Bob. I find it all distasteful no matter what the...


M

[This message has been edited by nakdthoughts (01-15-2009 06:38 AM).]

Bob K
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107 posted 01-15-2009 05:41 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Well, there you go, Naked Thoughts!  Upsetting to hear for many of us, and you would not be a good member for an audience of Ringo's humor.  Nor for Jackie Mason's, once he gets rolling, for that matter, if you are a good descriptor of your own sense of the absurd.  Myself, I don't find Jackie Mason racist, though perhaps you do.

     I have, in my recent reading, run across an interesting gloss on Moses Maimonides commentary on speech in Joel L. Kraemer's fascinating new biography of the man.
(pages 184-85, if you're interested).  Maimonides suggests speech falls into five catagories: 1) Obligatory; 2) Prohibited; 3) Reprehensible; 4) Meritorious; and 5) Permissible.

     I'd suggest that much of the ill feeling generated in this particular thread has come from the confusion of Prohibited and Reprehensible speech.  While many of us would like to think that the joke in question is merely reprehensible, in the terms Maimonides proposes it seems more likely to fit the catagory of Prohibited, which includes "bearing false witness, lying, slandering, calumniating, and vilifying, as well as obscenity and slander."  Reprehensible speech, on the other hand, "has no utility for a person and is neither obedience or disobedience to God."

     Like Ringo, I have an occasional weakness for both Prohibited and Reprehensible speech.   I do try, but as a 12th Century Jewish sage, I'm pretty much a flat bust.

     I will keep working on it, though, as best I can.  I beg some understanding, though.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
nakdthoughts
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108 posted 01-15-2009 06:26 PM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

Bob, Jackie Mason was Jewish. If he chose to joke about himself and his life that's a different  "story" than  others who are not Jewish or Black.  I wasn't commenting on Ringo's  supposed joke or comment. I knew it would bring about many differing opinions. I was  expressing my feeling on your comment.

Oh, forget it...
(I just erased my whole  response because it becomes too personal on my side)
I don't want to get into a word battle on this thread that seems to just irritate the more one reads. And unless you  grew up  hearing those jokes and comments and falicies...you wouldn't understand.

Sighing,
M  (I won't be responding on this)
Bob K
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109 posted 01-15-2009 10:27 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Naked Thoughts,

                        I was pretty much the only Jew in my class for most of my grade-school time in Ohio. I didn't like that.

     I had to attend a segregated high school for my final year when my folks moved to Virginia in 1965.  I didn't like that either.

     I did grow up hearing "those" jokes and fallacies.

     A lot of them are painful, wrongheaded, sadistic and cruel.  And some are funny.  

     I'm not telling you to do anything different for yourself.  Your understanding of me, however, is off base.  My understanding is agnostic, but I was born Jewish, I went to a Presbyterian College and my practice is taoist, as closely as I can understand it.

     Whatever my past or present, I find I laugh at whatever catches my sense of humor.  And I've never been able to make it play by any set of rules that were acceptable to anything approaching polite society.  It seems coincidental that actual cruelty and racism is something I've never actually found funny.  I hope I don't surprise myself in the future that way, I'd be upset.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven


rwood
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110 posted 01-15-2009 11:45 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Ringo,

Obama has made a point to address himself as a black man, and it's his right to establish his identity as he sees fit, which from where he's standing, his shoes matter most to me.

Appearances are deceiving. Melungeon means I'm not half anything, and we better hope Obama isn't half the man he needs to be in the oval office.

As far as your post being offensive? Which one do you want to deal with? The Black, Scots-Irish or Cherokee in me? I've got more Hope for you than most
 
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