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 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
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Passions in Poetry

The Great (Half) White Hope

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Mysteria
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50 posted 01-11-2009 07:51 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Gee, I went on a 5k walk in the snow with ma wee dog, picked up a few groceries on the way, and came back to all this.  

To clarify, I simply stated what I thought of Ringo's post, and how I personally felt it made me feel.  I was sure it must have crossed some line because I did not think it funny period, and yes, racially slanted, and some agreed.  

Marge is right I would assume.  I can't speak for Ringo, but will also suppose from his lack of response it was just a poor attempt at political humor.  Just as I don't care for some of the stuff on Saturday Night Live, and have turned the channel, I am now turning the channel on this.

If Ron says it hasn't crossed a line in his house, then I accept that. I suppose I can find a purpose in the post, however "off-color" it seemed to me.   It got us all looking at the existing rules anyway.  

That is the beauty about being adults, we can agree to disagree, and move on.  That is the beauty of being a moderator too; we  talk it out very similar to what we did here then come to a conclusion.  That conclusion will never please everyone by the way.  So with that, I am off to make my salad.
Grinch
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Whoville


51 posted 01-11-2009 07:56 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


I found it derogatory at first Karen - but only because ďhalfĒ denotes or conjures an image of ďless thanĒ in common usage. After reading it twice I just thought - so what - pointless thread ignore it. That was before all the subsequent replies - now I think it should be deleted because itís eroding the tolerance and respect of members.

Besides someone might take someoneís eye out with all these handbags flying backwards and forwards and that worries me, being the shy retiring type.

Mysteria
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52 posted 01-11-2009 08:14 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Purse Fight

Actually, I laughed, and maybe I shouldn't have, explain that one will ya?   Could be it was not a racially charged video?
Essorant
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53 posted 01-11-2009 08:27 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

It is all Sunshine's fault.  She took a fence of the topic and then everyone else just followed
Balladeer
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54 posted 01-11-2009 08:34 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

She's always been a de-fence-ive kind of gal
Ringo
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55 posted 01-11-2009 09:02 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

OK, all... as is my Constitutionally guaranteed rights, time for the accused to face his detractors.

I have not been posting here as of late, and that is for my own reasons, rather than for any real lack of desire. For that reason, many of the people on this site don't know me, or do not really remember me. That is fine. I have more important things with which to concern myself. There are many who have posted complaints about my (apparently) tiny little one-liner who should remember me, and should know my history on this site as far as respect and such matters.
As is the case with the very great majority of the Moderators, I have absolute and total respect for other members' thoughts, feelings, and beliefs.
There is a particular member of this site whose thought are that the world is, or could be a completely Utopian place, and that every member of the Earth's population can get along and be together in love and peace if only we would be able to talk and understand each other's differences. While I will not name him (for not having the time to get his permission), most of the people who have been here more than an hour know who it is, and might possibly know that I count him among my closest friends on this site, even though he is a liberal Democrat (Oh, shucks.,.. I'm gonna catch it for that little JOKE). He and I agree on NOTHING except that the Earth is round, and America is the finest country on the planet, and yet he and I have had serious discussions outside of the Blue Pages on politics, and other such nonsense.
For ANYONE on here that has known me for more than 30 seconds to accuse me of.. oh, wait, let me look up the quote again...
quote:
wiping your feet on the Respect and Tolerance guidelines.

For anyone to accuse me of that is absolute and total nonsense. I understand that Jennifer has not gotten to know me, as I have not gotten to know her; however, without knowing me at all, she has decided that I- with malice aforethought- was being disrespectful is purely... rushing to judgment. Did you take the time to ask, or to research why it is I said that? I didn't think so.

Karen- I did not take this personally. Not from you, nor from anyone. For me to do so is to allow others to have entirely too much power over my life, and my emotions.
As for the removal... if I don't then I am not a gentleman? President-elect Obama, who appears to be a fairly level-headed and polite (shall we say, "gentlemanly"?) politicians around, made some very hurtful comments about the military and their participation in Iraq and Afghanistan (comments from Marine, Navy, and National Guard friends of mine, not my thoughts). Does it make him any less polite that he never apologized?  I didn't think so.
BTW... the picture? It was a gift from a female friend. You and I have had a disagreement on other matters before (shortly after your fair city was destroyed) and I immediately requested that the thread be removed from the site, and it was done within minutes. The picture you don't win. It is nothing personal, it is just that picture has been there and means absolutely nothing anywhere close to what you have seen.
It is, as a matter of fact, my publicity photo for my book. The bad boy was added after I completely and (almost irrevocably) irritated my landlord by telling her all about herself, and how screwed up she was for the sin she had committed that particular day. It was added by (as I said) a female friend because she felt it fit. (which it did).

Jennifer- On to you.
quote:
Clicking on inappropriate content seems to be a waste of time, especially  if itís a moderatorís post or a post by a member of what could be described as the in clique.

This comment is one of the most disrespectful comments that I have seen in quite the while. It is a blatant insult to every person on this site who now has, or has in the past, carried the stars next to his or her name. While it might be popular to trounce those in "authority" (and I use that word solely due to my lack of a better on at the moment), to do so without ANY of the facts is irresponsible, and completely out of line. It shows that you are wiping your feet on the respect and tolerance guidelines. It outs you right down there in the slime hole that you have felt then need to place me in. I hope you enjoy your stay here.
As for me and the other Mod not responding immediately, just because you felt the need to complain about something: This is very simply a case of you needing to get over it. As you have been told before in a thread about politics and the election all those months ago, we do have lives. This is the FIRST time I have been back to the site since I started this thread just over 24 hours ago. I do not sit around waiting for someone to respond to my posts, or to police something that someone else might think is inappropriate. Besides. There is only a very small handful of people on here who have the power to unilaterally delete a thread, a post, or anything of the sort. The way it works, as you will soon find out, is that a post is brought into the Moderator's forum (such as serenity did), and then the Moderators discuss (and sometimes argue) the point. Only after a clear consensus has been reached is anything done, or not done as the case might be.
Also, your comment that ANY of my friends on the Moderator team would sit back and enjoy having power over the powerless is... well, I am not permitted to explain my true thoughts, as they would definitely be against the rules. When you are put in charge of the Teen Forum, and then you have a poster write something about cutting, then you have them replace it after it has been removed, then you have 4 more posters do posts that are likewise against regs, and then have the original post reposted numerous times (and all in the space of about 3 hours), and you are the one charged with keeping the peace, then you will truly understand how hard it is to be a Moderator. None of us are power-hungry morons. Masochists would be the better word.
As to your blanket charge that there are no posts by moderators or the "clique" that are removed... wrong again, there, kiddo. I have, personally, had more posts than I care to count taken into the Moderator's Forum, and have had TWO of them removed... even though I am a member of the Mod team. If anything, we are held to a higher standard because of the job that we have.
One last thing... the redundancy notice that we are to be given....
I did not ask to have all of those stars by my name. There were times that I did not want to be a Moderator due to time constraints, and was asked to hang out very simply because we have not enough people on this site who wish to take on that responsibility. You have already heard serenity and Grinch say that they were once a Mod, and has handed in her stars for the life of a normal poster. It isn't all just beer and skittles in that forum. I continue to do the job when I can out of love and respect for those who put their names and reputations on the line. While it might look like there are a great number of us, look through the forums and see how many people are doing double duty, and see how often you notice a new name in the Moderator spots... plain and simple: you don't. So, I will thank you in advance for your work as a Moderator.

I am gonna end my part on this with a few simple off-post, yet related comments.

1) I did not vote for our new President-to-be, and sincerely do not feel that he is going to be the savior that the liberals (most, but not all) are lifting him on high with. Looking back on the campaigns with hindsight and with all of the "evidence" that has come out, I would STILL not vote for him. I do not feel he is the man for the job. (Oh, heck... now the feminists are gonna get me for saying a "man" has to have the job... I can't win) HOWEVER... I sincerely hope that he does turn out to be the best president that this country has ever had. Lord knows (damn... now the non-Christians are gonna be upset) we could use that person these days. Of the Democrats in the primaries, Joe Biden was the one that I would have voted for, and he is close enough to the office. So, President Obama will have my total support until he gives me a reason to not support him.

2) I went into the Mod forum and asked that this post be removed. NOT because any of you have asked for it, but because it has created a sand storm that I did not expect, nor did I ask for. Had someone made a statement about the WHITE guy in the election that was inappropriate, not a thing would have been said by.. well, the one screaming the loudest... Yet a simple ONE-LINER has caused everyone's knickers to rise up into a bunch. Perhaps that is why I stopped getting into political discussions while the majority of the opposing comments are disrespectful, inappropriate, and given by a very, very, small minority (a minority of one, actually). I have asked that it be deleted, very simply because I am tired of hearing you yell.

BTW... do not bother responding, as this is the last I will be visiting this little thread. I have better things to do than to be vilified by people who don't even know me. (those of you not included know who you are) I am a better person than that, and will be spending my energies elsewhere.

What would you attempt to do...if you knew you could not fail?.
www.myspace.com/mindlesspoet

Marge Tindal
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56 posted 01-11-2009 10:17 PM       View Profile for Marge Tindal   Email Marge Tindal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marge Tindal's Home Page   View IP for Marge Tindal

Ringo~
Should you just happen to find yourself back on this thread ... know that I applaud your honesty in your post~

Thank you for being a part of an effective and greatly admired group of TEAM members of the Moderators and Deputy Moderators at the PiP Blue Pages site~

*Huglets*
~*Marge*~

~*The sound of a kiss is not as strong as that of a cannon, but it's echo endures much longer*~
Email -               noles1@totcon.com

JenniferMaxwell
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57 posted 01-11-2009 10:21 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

If you're sincere about wanting to delete your original post, post #1 in the thread, Ringo, I'm pretty sure you still have time to edit it with a post saying something like "self delete". But, being a moderator, you probably already knew that, right?
Balladeer
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58 posted 01-11-2009 10:31 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Some people are one of a kind!
Marge Tindal
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59 posted 01-11-2009 10:42 PM       View Profile for Marge Tindal   Email Marge Tindal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marge Tindal's Home Page   View IP for Marge Tindal

Hey Bal~
Anybody knows that one-of-a-kind beats nobody ... and they really should fold 'em~
Ya' think ?
...
Me too~

~*The sound of a kiss is not as strong as that of a cannon, but it's echo endures much longer*~
Email -               noles1@totcon.com

Balladeer
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60 posted 01-11-2009 11:39 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Love ya, Margie
moonbeam
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61 posted 01-12-2009 08:01 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

I agree with Ron and Balladeer!  I think Mysteria, Karen, Jenn and Marge are off beam here.

Let's face it, compared with what Jaime Fradera did in these threads:
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum6/HTML/001639.html
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum6/HTML/001693.html

where, amongst other things, he likened your President-elect to a mass murderer of Jews and a war criminal, this harmless little bit of inane fun from Ringo is hardly going to challenge the PiP tolerance threshold.

And on Ringo's picture Karen, I don't really get your point at all.  I mean I'd think that you'd be happy to see the male of the species reduced to his proper place.
JenniferMaxwell
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62 posted 01-12-2009 12:13 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Iím truly very sorry and feel rather ashamed, moonbeam, that I didnít fight harder to get Jaimeís posts removed. Perhaps thatís part of the reason why this thread bothered me so much, was sort of a flashback reminder that Iíd given up so easily and now a similar post by someone who knew that sort of post gets an easy pass .

Interesting to note even though Ringoís requested that the mods delete his post, itís still up. Makes me wonder if theyíre questioning the sincerity of his request, or denying him the right to delete his own post.
serenity blaze
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63 posted 01-12-2009 12:24 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

*shrug*

I'm gonna go work on my pop up book.

And Moonbeam? Those posts you linked bothered me too. One of such ilk disappeared when I made a comment that it was just sad that such diatribes continued.

Maybe I should have tried that tact this time as well.

I didn't expect that little button to work for me.

A lot of my little buttons don't work anymore.

I still think this thread could turn into something positive, since Ringo's humor accidentally brought up a valid point that I heard some pundits speaking of last week.

Is there a hyper-sensitivity going on with language now? Just as some people are unaware that referring to some people of certain races as "well-spoken" is offensive, perhaps I am unaware of that I am being overly sensitive.

Maybe someone with a better command of language and buttons can start a discussion about that. I'd be happy to read it.

Doubt I'll say much, but I'll be happy to read it.

Thanks everyone, for humoring me so kindly.

Essorant
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64 posted 01-12-2009 01:22 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

No one is saying such things are not offensive.  But just being offensive doesn't mean something is to an extreme that the forum ought to jump to removing and deleting instead of dealing with it with some patience and respectful discussion. As mentioned earlier, even though it is not as easy, I think we all learn more from dealing with an issue maturely and respectfully, instead of mechanically removing or deleting it.

JenniferMaxwell
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65 posted 01-12-2009 04:24 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

The part of your post about the rule regarding having a post deleted seems to have disappeared, Ess, but I'd like to address it anyway.

Iím not sure what your point was. Were you saying that even though Ringo is a moderator he wasnít aware of that rule? Regardless, he still has time to edit the post himself, if heís sincere about wanting it deleted, and by doing so, wouldnít lose his posting privileges.

Now I'm curious as to why you (or someone) deleted it. Wasn't it factual or is it top secret or something?

I think having a discussion about racial slurs, innuendos, hate speech, etc., is a good thing. However, I donít think you have to listen to it or read it over and over before you can have that discussion. If the point some have been trying to make is that you just have to ignore it and let it go, then I think theyíre totally wrong. If you donít speak up, arenít you in effect condoning it with your silence?
serenity blaze
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66 posted 01-12-2009 04:35 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

With perfect 20/20 hindisght, Jenn, I think that I should have introduced that idea as discussion instead of hitting "duh button".

Grinch
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Whoville


67 posted 01-12-2009 06:24 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

I think the moral of this tale is donít hit the little button Karen, because if you do thereís a fair chance youíre going to be disappointed.

Posts get deleted or edited based on the decision of the Moderators, not because of anything you do, clicking a little button doesnít affect their decision one way or the other. Youíd be better off using your time to write a reply and voicing your opinion out in the open - itís far more satisfying.

Besides as Ron said if a post hasnít been removed quickly or decisively  itís highly likely that itís never going to be removed at all, which basically means youíre wasting your time trying to get it deleted.

Hitting the "Submit Reply" button makes much more sense:

"accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed"


serenity blaze
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68 posted 01-12-2009 06:39 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Sleeping with serenity is an entirely different matter.

*ahem* (I may be telling tales outta school but I heard she drools AND snores.)

But generally, you say things so well, I find myself nodding, just because it sounds right.

I'm profoundly sorry to say experience doesn't prove your point, and I'm sorrier to use my own sad excuse as a pivot, but I had a poem removed from Open for a mere asterisk, only to watch, the following week, as titles that described the sexual act in full display in Open.

Big "Wah?"

Sure it is.

But stuff like that can be infuriating.

(And I should have typed this with ribbons round my wrist on your behalf.)

I am sincere about hoping to view a discussion regarding the prickly persnicketty differences between saying, for example,

"Bush is an inarticulate expletive."

and saying that President-elect Barack Obama is "well-spoken."

I want to know if my jokes and comments are offensive.

I think it's difficult to agree to a creed of behavior if we are ignorant. Respect and tolerance needs to be addressed.

So...let's talk about it?

*not my forum*

so it's just a suggestion...

Grinch
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Whoville


69 posted 01-12-2009 07:59 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

I didnít say the Moderators always get things right Karen, in fact Iíd be amazed if they did. I was just pointing out the futility of trying to change their minds once theyíve made a decision or even trying to influence their decision one way or the other before they decide what to do.

Thatís what clicking that little button amounts to - it sets you up for a possible fall.

I complained once to my Dad that a light switch in his kitchen only worked every now and then, he said it worked perfectly for him because he never used it. The inappropriate content button is exactly the same Karen - if you donít use it you wonít be disappointed.

As far as what gets deleted goes thatís down to the Moderators and ultimately Ron, we get the chance to voice our opinions when we think they get it wrong but once you start believing you can actually change their minds youíre setting yourself up to be sorely disappointed. In that respect being a Mod is no different, sure you get the chance to voice your opinion behind closed doors but ultimately youíve either got to swallow your principles, or ďsuck it upĒ as Mike put it, and go with the flow or prepare to be disappointed.

Thatís not a criticism of how it is, itís just an observation.

serenity blaze
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70 posted 01-12-2009 08:09 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I don't think I can change stuff.

Not all in one day (post).



But when a river runs through a continent?

ooooohhhhhhhhhhhhh....

(I always feel sexy typing to you.)

*blush*
Ron
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71 posted 01-12-2009 09:52 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
The part of your post about the rule regarding having a post deleted seems to have disappeared, Ess, but I'd like to address it anyway. ... Now I'm curious as to why you (or someone) deleted it. Wasn't it factual or is it top secret or something?

It was deleted because I didn't have time to correct it. It was blatantly wrong and taken out of context, quoting an answer to an entirely different question. I was in the middle of something and didn't feel it warranted an interruption beyond removal.

quote:
Posts get deleted or edited based on the decision of the Moderators, not because of anything you do, clicking a little button doesnít affect their decision one way or the other. Youíd be better off using your time to write a reply and voicing your opinion out in the open - itís far more satisfying.

The button is on every post, Grinch, because I can't be.

I could have labeled it, "Hey, guys, have you read this yet? I really think you should and soon."

It didn't fit.

I had this truly crazy idea that some of the people who frequent these forums might be willing to assume responsibility for what is posted here. I thought that some might find that satisfaction you're apparently seeking by helping support what we do here. Turns out "some" is a whole lot smaller than I hoped. But that's okay, because I appreciate the "some" all the more.

There's certainly nothing wrong with voicing an opinion out in the open, and I don't think doing so necessarily excludes the possibility of alerting staff there might be a problem. I just wish more people knew how to voice an opinion. No one yet has told me which rule was broken or WHY calling a black man black is demeaning or insulting. If someone said Obama couldn't be a good president because he was black, that would be racist. I would still allow it because bigots get to vote in America, too, but I would probably be the first person to "voice an opinion." Making a joke about Obama being the first black President isn't very funny, but I see no reason to label it racist. No one cried racism, after all, when the same exact title was applied to Bill Clinton?

Calling a person a bigot is a de facto insult because being a bigot is a bad thing. Calling a person black is only an insult if you think being black is an insult. In which case, one's search for bigotry should probably be directed inward.
serenity blaze
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72 posted 01-12-2009 10:11 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

quote:
Calling a person a bigot is a de facto insult because being a bigot is a bad thing. Calling a person black is only an insult if you think being black is an insult. In which case, one's search for bigotry should probably be directed inward.


And this is exactly where I think we should start again. I don't believe that there's anything we can't discuss--I refuse to believe that, so why don't we take that as a new point of discussion.

I might learn something about why it bothered me so much.

Because I did try to ignore it.



  

Essorant
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Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


73 posted 01-12-2009 11:56 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Jen,

quote:
Iím not sure what your point was. Were you saying that even though Ringo is a moderator he wasnít aware of that rule?


You asked why Ringo's request for a deletion was not done by the site.  I was just pointing out that the Guidelines forewarn us that they are not obliged to make a deletion, therefore they were not obliged to delete Ringo's post even though he requested it.  That was the beginning and end of my "point".  I apologize if that was a misunderstanding on my part.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (01-13-2009 12:08 AM).]

Essorant
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74 posted 01-13-2009 12:49 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Ron

quote:
No one yet has told me which rule was broken or WHY calling a black man black is demeaning or insulting


I don't think any rule was broken, nor that anyone was suggesting "black" was being used as an insult.  The ill manner was treating a black man (Obama in this case) as if he doesn't rightly have the status of "black", particularily "first black president" because he is not all black and then suggesting (here is where the humour must be intended) that "(half) White Hope (not even, half-black) might be more appropriate.  

I think Mysteria, Midnitesun, and Balladeer  addressed the distastefulness of the post very appropriately.   But I admit, and hope they don't think it disrespectful for saying straight-out,  that Serenity and Jen overreacted a bit and took it out of proportion, somewhat like someone overscratching a mosquito bite and making it much worse than it actually is.  

 
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