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Passions in Poetry

A Double-Edged, uh, Pen

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Ratleader
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0 posted 08-16-2004 05:22 PM       View Profile for Ratleader   Email Ratleader   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ratleader's Home Page   View IP for Ratleader

Been wondering.... do you think Im hurting myself by writing dual voice poems?

I'm talking about things like this --
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum90/HTML/001136.html  
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum90/HTML/001509.html  
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum90/HTML/001483.html

They're fascinating to me, but I wonder whether by writing them I'm dooming myself to be read by fewer and fewer people, because folks will either not want to read something that sends their eyes into separate orbits, or maybe they just won't be interested.

It started when saw some written in a children's book, but it's a long way from describing a raccoon for third graders, to the places I'm trying to take the style.

Its a pretty sharp departure from whats expected and I wonder whether Ill do more harm than good by pursuing it.....whether more readers will be driven away than will find it interesting.

A couple of other folks have experimented with it, and there have been a number of people all along, who write standard poems but interject phrases or even whole verses in italic, which would be the counterpoint verses of a dual voice poem. That's pretty heartening, but still I wonder.

I can say its definitely rewarding for me as a writer, especially since it's such an A.D.D. delight --- imagine, those side thoughts and mumblings that mostly get in the way, can actually become a working part of the poem!
Sunshine
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1 posted 08-16-2004 06:07 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

I enjoy reading your poetry when you write with double voices - sounds like you're inside my own head.  Those questioning thoughts as one streamlines a poem, the nagging quickly thought extra word, "will it or will it not suit this..."...it's all there in your poetry.  

I believe we should always be open to new, interpretive ways of writing, just as much as we enjoy the classic formats.  You keep doing it, Rat...you won't lose me as a reader.

Of course, the only negative aspect that I can see from reading this type of poetry is that sometimes I may end up a little dizzier than when I started...

which ain't all bad.  
Christopher
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2 posted 08-16-2004 08:18 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

being read by fewer people is only a negative if that's the reason you write.
Ratleader
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3 posted 08-16-2004 08:32 PM       View Profile for Ratleader   Email Ratleader   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ratleader's Home Page   View IP for Ratleader

That's partly true at least -- but as Lester Del Rey said, "Writing for the trunk is masturbation."

I want to write well and in ways that interest me, and have some folks be interested in what I say....pretty tall order for sure, but that's what I want anyhow. So the responses do count, though maybe only half as much as they seem to matter sometimes.

The heart says they matter more, the soul says they matter less....and the mind says "Huh? Wha?" cuz it was daydreaming about being a famous poet.....

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Susan
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4 posted 08-16-2004 10:57 PM       View Profile for Susan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan

I find it fascinating and it captures my attention, especially when done well, and you do it well.  It looks terribly difficult and you have my admiration.  So I say, go for it!  Just throw in some standard as well, as you also excell in that area.

  Susan

Happiness isn't something that happens to you, it's created from within you.  Joy is a state of mind.

Sunshine
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5 posted 08-16-2004 11:32 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

What Christopher says has weight...I would rather be read by those who understand me...than by those who do not.

Ratleader
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6 posted 08-17-2004 09:28 AM       View Profile for Ratleader   Email Ratleader   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ratleader's Home Page   View IP for Ratleader

Hi Susan --

I'll snag all the praise I can get, but feel a bit guilty about this one -- they're surprisingly easy to write. At least that's been my experience with 'em. While writing I always have side thoughts and things I want to say that would dilute a regular poem too much to use, or a little different point of view I could have used that would have been valid. Now I've got a place for 'em.

The hardest part is my own self-assignment to make both halves readable, so that if a person wants to, they can read all of one side and then read the other.

Yo Sunshine--

Right you are, but with a caveat. As a writer it's my responsibility to make what I write be readable, so that its very nature doesn't drive people away. Maybe that's the real challenge with these, to work out ways to make them as approachable as I can.....

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Midnitesun
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7 posted 08-17-2004 09:58 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

You nailed it with that last comment, Ed.
Don't give up on the style if it feels right, and gives you a 'voice' that 'echos.'
suthern
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8 posted 08-17-2004 10:22 AM       View Profile for suthern   Email suthern   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for suthern

Well... you already know I love 'em. *S* Your poems always fascinate me with their layers... this style gives an avenue for even more depth. *S*

I'll confess... your self-assignment is appreciated for I read them as 3 poems... I read the whole AND read both sides as separate poems... and whether I'm on a side of that double-edged pen or right down the middle... it works. *S*

My only complaint??? *G* No... it isn't the dizziness... for I'm used to that. *G* AND I'd stand on my head for the chance to read great poetry even if it gave me a case of the vapors. LOL But those of us who love to cut and paste part of the poem into our response have a chore when we're only wanting to clip words from one side. *S* Still... that's small price to pay... and you often make that a non-issue by making the whole my favorite part. *S*
Toerag
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9 posted 08-17-2004 04:09 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

If I got half the replies to my poems as you do I'd be happy.....
Sunshine
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10 posted 08-17-2004 04:52 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Then write more, Toe...
show our members your stuff!  
Ratleader
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11 posted 08-17-2004 04:57 PM       View Profile for Ratleader   Email Ratleader   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ratleader's Home Page   View IP for Ratleader

I dunno, Toe...I don't much like the direction I'm going in....I used to average around 15 responses for an average poem, now I'm down to nine or so....and writing what feels like better stuff to me.

If the loss is because I'm doing something wrong and not even realizing what it is, I've got to be concerned. That's half the reason I asked this question, just rooting around for things I can improve.

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Sunshine
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12 posted 08-17-2004 05:13 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Rat...the kids are all out playing in JM's creeks...not to worry.  It's not about numbers...it is about what people take away with them after they've read you.

Quality.
Ratleader
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13 posted 08-17-2004 05:38 PM       View Profile for Ratleader   Email Ratleader   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ratleader's Home Page   View IP for Ratleader

So folks pretty much saying I ought to keep writin' 'em if I feel like it's the right thing to do....

Which puts me back where I started, cuz I don't know if it's the right thing to do.



I just answered my own question....feel, know...know, feel....you can only do one, and the other is impossible.

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Cpat Hair
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14 posted 08-17-2004 07:22 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

(chuckling)... well my friend.. whether or not people reply, is in the end no measure of the value of the piece itself... the real question I have to ask when I write..is.. did in the end I get close or capture some little part of what it was I wanted to express? If I can answer that yes... then I ask how could I do it differently..

I'm guilty of reading most of what you post... and through lazy or time constraints of read and run.. don't comment like I should or like I used to. seems I rarely find enough hours in the day or the week anymore to say all I might say to the words I read on the pages. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate it or that I don't think they are well done... so don't measure the acceptance of your words or the style by the numbers of replies... measure them by what it is inside they speak to and your own pleasure in expressing and writing as you do..

Now.. I'm back to the third half of my day..lol...
Ratleader
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15 posted 08-17-2004 08:03 PM       View Profile for Ratleader   Email Ratleader   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ratleader's Home Page   View IP for Ratleader

Oh boy do I know how that goes! With my time as limited as it is, I read at least five poems for every one that I write a response to.....

I think everybody's probably that way....I sometimes post on another site, with software that counts responses as PIP does, but also counts hits -- the difference is amazing!

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Kahlil
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16 posted 08-18-2004 09:31 AM       View Profile for Kahlil   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kahlil

Rat:   An A.D.D. mind will move forth boldly, and then turn around in questioning doubt.  You may get fewer responses while your readers assimilate the changes in your style.  The pleasure with which you write shines out in your work, and that is the magic dust that continues to draw the readers. The last sentence of your post speaks your truth, and I applaud you.  K
LeeJ
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17 posted 08-18-2004 02:43 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

I enjoy reading you no matter what you write, but what is more important is what your best comfortable with, and suggest, don't worry about others reading you, you do have your own fans here, have fun with it...it is you and your very own window to the soul...your an extremely good writer...so to me...I say...write write write until the cows come home...if your happy, challenged and doing something new, then from it you'll learn, right?  

serenity blaze
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18 posted 08-18-2004 03:15 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Ed, You're such a lovely poet, I would hope that a lack of replies wouldn't stop you from exploration of new styles.

Like the Cap, I tend to be hit and miss in my replies. Sometimes I just get quiet. And as of late, I realized there were a lot of poets here I'd never read before so I am trying harder to at the least leave a small note of appreciation letting them know I've been there. (I'm not comfortable with critique in open forum, except with a few close friends, and even then I have found myself misunderstood by others who don't know that I was ASKED to critique.)

But I have read a couple of your dual voice poems and found them graceful and intriguing. (I was tempted to try it on occasion, but I even felt funny about doing THAT without an invite.)

But please know that you are read and appreciated, not just by me, but by many others here at Pip.

Ratleader
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19 posted 08-18-2004 04:12 PM       View Profile for Ratleader   Email Ratleader   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ratleader's Home Page   View IP for Ratleader

Oh yes, do it!

I've been hoping that other people would be interested and start trying it out! In fact, I seriously thought about putting it in as a Challenge, but didn't want to put people on the spot. One or two other folks have ventured in, and they've produced things that turned me green with envy....

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serenity blaze
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20 posted 08-18-2004 06:03 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Any tips or rules to this?

I wanted to try it because I often find myself working on two poems at once (at least) and on occasion have thrown them together. I also have this habit (annoying, too, sometimes) of mixing metaphors (I believe Magnus referred to it as "scattergun" ) sooooo....

with your permission I'll give it a shot. Er..so to speak. Thanks Ed.
Sunshine
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21 posted 08-18-2004 06:35 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Oh yea! A serene poem....
serenity blaze
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22 posted 08-18-2004 09:02 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Um...maybe. Not sure if I CAN.

Ed's got it down so well I hate to even try...

So Ed, if you have any pointers, post 'em here, or you can e me!

Thanks again! I guess if I can try a damned sestina I can try this...sigh, but honestly I've been reading yours and fear I spoke too soon. Maybe I'll just e mail mine to you.

Sheesh.
Ratleader
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23 posted 08-19-2004 06:07 PM       View Profile for Ratleader   Email Ratleader   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ratleader's Home Page   View IP for Ratleader

Can't be e-ing you cuz I don't have your address.....

I generally write things on a steno pad -- folks closeest to me know why -- and then transcribe to computer later.... with these the only change in that routine is that I write on one side of the little red line...

If it comes out only as a single voice, I let it be that way.... as often as not though, by the time I write down a phrase or two there'll be something I want to say about what I just wrote, extending it or showing it in a different light, or from a different point of view, like a comment or sidelight on the main theme. That goes on the right, and then I'm off and running.

I'm generally most comfortable when the lines match each other, but that's not necessary at all. In fact most dual voice poems I've seen don't match each other line-for-line, and I even saw one that was written as a conversation between two different people, and the writer was able to show them talking over each other off and on, by presenting it this way -- very effective!

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serenity blaze
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24 posted 08-19-2004 06:14 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

geez, Ed..I forgot 'bout my e mail thing.

and thanks, and um, check yours.

sigh. I'm forgetful at times...
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