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Democratic Convention |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA 
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Did any one watch the convention Monday night? What did you think about all the speakers? I'm just curious. Personally, I have never been a big Clinton fan, but I thought former President Clinton's speech was extraordinarily impressive. Also thought former President Carter said some pretty important things. The political tactics are very interesting to watch this year, at least to me. What do you think? Although I may not comment back...depending on my schedule this week, I am curious as to all your views. Have fun! |
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SEA 
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 2000-01-18
Posts 22676with you |
nope, didn't watch it. I don't believe any of them have anything useful (to me) to hear. I personally think Kerry is a joke. |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
I am Canadian, but I watched the entire convention yesterday. I think Jimmy Carter hit it bang on in his speech myself, and was also impressed with Clinton, but we also have to remember they don't always write the words to the songs they sing. I have always been a Clinton fan, and he was by far my favorite President (but what do I know?) If you are taking a poll, I think John Kerry/John Edwards will get elected. I am not American but I think anything that will increase the quality of health care down there, and restore the fine reputation of the United States is a good bet. I am sure curious how they intend of carrying out their energy independence plan, but we are watching with interest up here. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Actually it's basically a dead heat, with Bush actually leading by a bit in some polls. Kerry isn't going to help healthcare, and his foreign policy ideas (backing down) isn't going to help us gain respect either, I don't think. If we back down from terrorists like countries such as Spain, well.. they've won. Why do you think they keep threatening countries (such as Australia recently) with terror attacks if they don't abandon the US? They think it will work... and unfortunately, in some instances, it will. And I know Canada is watching with interest... they want the US to join their Liberal ways!  Oh, make me Thine forever And should I fainting be Lord, let me never ever Outlive my love for Thee |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
quote: Ooooh so that's the official Democratic platform, backing down.  Have you read their platform or listened to Kerry's speech? Here's what he has to say: "As President, I will wage this war with the lessons I learned in war. Before you go to battle, you have to be able to look a parent in the eye and truthfully say: "I tried everything possible to avoid sending your son or daughter into harm's way. But we had no choice. We had to protect the American people, fundamental American values from a threat that was real and imminent." So lesson one, this is the only justification for going to war. And on my first day in office, I will send a message to every man and woman in our armed forces: You will never be asked to fight a war without a plan to win the peace. I know what we have to do in Iraq. We need a President who has the credibility to bring our allies to our side and share the burden, reduce the cost to American taxpayers, and reduce the risk to American soldiers. That's the right way to get the job done and bring our troops home. Here is the reality: that won't happen until we have a president who restores America's respect and leadership -- so we don't have to go it alone in the world. And we need to rebuild our alliances, so we can get the terrorists before they get us. I defended this country as a young man and I will defend it as President. Let there be no mistake: I will never hesitate to use force when it is required. Any attack will be met with a swift and certain response. I will never give any nation or international institution a veto over our national security. And I will build a stronger American military. We will add 40,000 active duty troops – not in Iraq, but to strengthen American forces that are now overstretched, overextended, and under pressure. We will double our special forces to conduct anti-terrorist operations. We will provide our troops with the newest weapons and technology to save their lives – and win the battle. And we will end the backdoor draft of National Guard and reservists. To all who serve in our armed forces today, I say, help is on the way. As President, I will fight a smarter, more effective war on terror. We will deploy every tool in our arsenal: our economic as well as our military might; our principles as well as our firepower. In these dangerous days there is a right way and a wrong way to be strong. Strength is more than tough words. After decades of experience in national security, I know the reach of our power and I know the power of our ideals. We need to make America once again a beacon in the world. We need to be looked up to and not just feared. We need to lead a global effort against nuclear proliferation – to keep the most dangerous weapons in the world out of the most dangerous hands in the world. We need a strong military and we need to lead strong alliances. And then, with confidence and determination, we will be able to tell the terrorists: You will lose and we will win. The future doesn't belong to fear; it belongs to freedom." Doesn't sound like backing down to me. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
I had to work late into the night and missed the show, and also missed tonight's acceptance except for a short blurb on the radio. Most convention stuff is boring and repetitive, but I've heard that Kerry's acceptance speech was anything but same-old-boring-stuff. Personally? anyone other than GW would get my vote. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
Kacy I quoted some of it but here's the full adress: http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2004_0729.html |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
THANKS RAPH! "You will never be asked to fight a war without a plan to win the peace. I know what we have to do in Iraq. We need a President who has the credibility to bring our allies to our side and share the burden, reduce the cost to American taxpayers, and reduce the risk to American soldiers. That's the right way to get the job done and bring our troops home." EXACTLY! |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Bring honesty and intregrity back to the high office. What a bunch of bull. In other threads, I've read some thinking Kerry voiced the same opinion in support of Bush's actions, then flipped when it came time to run for office. It goes back much farther than that: try from the 1990's through early 2004. Correct me if I'm wrong on my history, but Bush wasn't the president in 1993, 1995, 1998, when the same intelligence information was being scrutinized and acted upon, especially touted and referenced to Kerry. Although the acting upon was more or less along the lines of 'we ought to do something'. Then along comes Bush, reads the same intel, and says 'we oughta do sumthin, an ah think ah will'. And all was well and good (mostly) until it came time for the Democratic Party Primaries. Then it became a good case for amnesia: I never said that. I never meant that. I never wrote that. I don't recall. He can remember what he said to a military committee from 1971-1972, but he can't recall what he said not 10 years ago? Do we really need an acute amnesiac in office (though some call that convenient memory)? Alicat the Persnikitty  |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
I'm not sure how Intel from 2004 is the same as Intel from 1993. Things change and much of the equipment that may have been there at one time or another is no longer. He didn't change his mind when running for office, he changed his mind, along with alot of us, once he saw how misleading the administration had been. As for restoring honesty and integrity to the high office I agree with you. There's not a person alive that could. Honesty, integrity and politics don't mix. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Alicat -- In all fairness, and with due respect, you are leaving out 9/11. We were all affected by it and senators are supposed to reflect voting for their constituency and not act independently from the opinons they are supposed to represent. Perhaps, Kerry believed Dubya's intel just like Dubya did. Have we forgot what that means -- to represent US? And, not to be told what to think? Midenitesun -- I'm with you on the handling of the war. I don't think Kerry will back down and I absolutely adore John Edwards. I watched most of the convention. Kerry really did a good job and my opinion of him has been significantly lifted. Our President should reflect our views. Kerry has the strongest record of anyone on the Hill with regard to protecting the environment according to Bob Kennedy, Jr. I think that not only does he care about saving our land but he cares about saving the world. That pretty much has got my attention! |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Did anyone hear Obama? W O W -- what an impressive guy! |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Democratic, Republican, or "Other," they're all going to tell you what they think (based on their own polls) you want to hear. If some of those things they say and promise actually coincide with their own personal reality/belief systems, more's the better when they get into office. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
 Hi everyone! Sorry I've been away for a week. The Democratic Convention was the reason I've been away, watching vigilantly to see what they hope to accomplish and where their party is heading to use the resources in my campaign to move Bush out of office. I put together my report card for each major speaker during the four days of the convention in order: (This is on a four-star scale) ********SPEECH REPORT-CARD: FIRST NIGHT******** (This is on a four star scale) Al Gore: 1 1/2 Stars: C'mon, Al, every Democrat (and deep in the stubborn minds of some Republicans too) knows you truly won the election, not just by the popular vote but by the electoral too, having been robbed of Florida by Katherine Harris and Database Technologies! We all know the injustice of the last election, but you'll only lose credibility by continuing to push the needle through. You at least deserve some points for bringing about how we should translate the injustice into positive fusion by electing John Kerry, but please, we all know well Bush's presidental-run record will be 0-2 come November (or 1-1 if Bush does actually win). Jimmy Carter: 2 Stars Jimmy Carter has never been a great public speaker, but despite his lack of enthusiasm in tone, he does always know how to make a strong one-liner worthy of being a bumper-sticker anthem. ("In the world at large, we cannot lead if our leaders mislead."). I can understand how the extremism thing may turn off some moderates, but it will be effective sinew for other voters determined to vote Democratic this election year. Bill Clinton: 3 1/2 Stars Once again, Bill's speeches effortlessly resonate with a strong tone and convincing enthusiasm. This is certainly no exception, as Bill Clinton achieved his goal; to make sure this is about Kerry and not Clinton, and speak as a citizen, a "foot soldier", rather than the president again. He made some harsh comparisons to the two parties, nevertheless his positive tone was most overwhelming, with a strong, passionate tone filling the punchline "Send Kerry!". ****************SECOND NIGHT**************** Ted Kennedy: 2 1/2 Stars For a speech from average standards, it was pretty good. But by Ted Kennedy's standards, it couldn't help but be a disappointment. It sounded more like a history lesson on American values and culture than a speech. Ted Kennedy displayed mastery of empathy in his speech when running for office in 1980, but here, he fails to be human enough. So many great quotes and convincing descriptions, and witty tongue-in-cheekers like the Boston Tea Party slur (no worries for trouble pronouncing "suburb"! but it doesn't quite accomplish what many were hoping for. They were hoping Ted Kennedy would once again represent the "liberal Lion Heart". This year, he will be overshadowed by Obama and Clinton.Howard Dean: 3 Stars Howard Dean set out and accomplished just what everyone expected. To encourage his delegates and more liberal Americans that Kerry is the man. He kept it short and sweet, and there is nothing particularly memorable of his speech, but he did what he had to do and there's nothing to lose there. Barack Obama: 4 Stars We may have just heard perhaps one of the best speeches in the past quarter-century! What makes this newcomer so moving is that he's very human and you feel his pain, you feel his empathy. You can emphasize with how his father struggled in Kenya, and his grandfather had dreams for his son, which were fulfilled and gave his father a college education and a new dream in America. There, you truly can emphasize that his presence on the stage WAS unlikely. But it happened! He expresses how the "faith in the simple dreams" has shaped America and all those who never would have made it possible elsewhere but found the light here. You feel his empathy dripping in every young man he's met in Illinois, from the father in Galesburg, hopeless in knowing how he would pay $4,500 a month for the drugs his son needs without the health benefits that he counted on, to the young women in East St. Louis who have the ambition and good grades but can't go to college, to Shamus in East Moline, Illinois, wondering if he's getting back all he gives his nation. Finally, he is able to effortlessly move to those he meets into emphasizing with John Kerry, and how his lifetime of service is example to how far the simple dream can take you, and how having witnessed the simple dream, he can now share it amongst others. With keeping criticism of the Bush administration to a trickle, he reveals a massive call to the "politics of hope". And with the way his energetic, convincing tone rings, there truly is a place for the skinny kid with the funny name in America too. And that part of the speech literally made me tear up! Ron Reagen: 3 Stars Just like Howard Dean, he had only one priority to cover in his speech, and he set out what he hoped to accomplish. Address a topic without intending to make it political. Again, his speech won't be memorable, but he did shed light on the topic and accomplished his mission. Teresa Heinz Kerry: 3 1/2 Stars Many were probably worried that both the "shove-it" comment, plus the fact she was speaking in a scripted form would not bring her speech justice. She overcame both obstacles by offering a deep, heartfelt speech resonating with her compassionate but also strong spirit. Sharing her history, it is inspiring too, like Obama, how she has come to be a success story in America. Even in a scripted format, it still sounds very much like the ambrosia we hear from Teresa's heart. Some may argue that she spoke too slowly, and that is understandable. Nevertheless, she speaks from the heart, which we seldom see in politics sadly nowadays. ****************THIRD NIGHT**************** Jesse Jackson: 3 Stars Though his speech was only ten minutes long, it was a notabl speech of the evening. Jesse highlighted what the overlooked Maya Angelou's speech from Tuesday covered; civil rights accomplishments, and the hope in further fulfilling them. His speech spoke of deep hope, just what everyone needed to hear. Al Sharpton: 2 1/2 Stars Al tackled a similar theme to Jesse, only with more negative shots at Bush. Al had some pretty strong, witty one-liners, but he kind of exhausted himself with the rhetoric. He mimicked muc of what Jesse had said earlier, and tried to put it in his own words. Still, his rhetoric sounded like the Al Sharpton we are accustomed to, and you can't mark him down for that. John Edwards: 2 1/2 Stars To be honest, I almost feel like giving him 2 stars by his standards. This was a very disappointing speech. First, he is noted for his ability to articulate hand gestures effortlessly in his speech and smile at the right times in small community gatherings. Last night, he failed on both. He used the wrong gestures at the right times, and smiled on serious issues, making it seem like he was smiling at a funeral. Then, though he covers himself to some degree, if you have kept up with him, it sounded like nothing new to your ears. All he covered from Kerry was his service in Vietnam, but none of the other 35 years that many are anxiously waiting to hear. Finally, he couldn't help but sound like a Republican at times. He seemed kind of grumpy (of course I understand he had a cold the last few days) and it really affected his mood, in seeming as optimistic as he usually is. He sounded very militaristic, especially with the controversial "we will destroy you" line against terrorist organizations. The thing that saves the speech from being a total sham is his vocals, which still sound familiar and display how articulate he truly is. Even with a lack of meat for either Kerry or himself in his speech, his articulate nature makes him sound strong. This is not the John Edwards we've known and loved over the past six months, and his folly here is just what may limit the bounce for the Democratic ticket. *************FINAL NIGHT**************** John Kerry: 3 1/2 Stars: John Kerry restored confidence to where John Edwards may have broke some in more liberal potential voters Wednesday in his well-polished speech. Though Kerry will still have to confront the "flip-flop" issue during the next three months, he worked some of Bush's criticisms against Bush in his speech: "I am proud that after September 11th all our people rallied to President Bush's call for unity to meet the danger. There were no Democrats. There were no Republicans. There were only Americans. How we wish it had stayed that way." "Now I know there are those who criticize me for seeing complexities -- and I do -- because some issues just aren't all that simple. Saying there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq doesn't make it so. Saying we can fight a war on the cheap doesn't make it so. And proclaiming mission accomplished, certainly doesn't make it so." He also displayed empathy: "What does it mean in America today when Dave McCune, a steel worker I met in Canton, Ohio, saw his job sent overseas and the equipment in his factory literally unbolted, crated up, and shipped thousands of miles away along with that job? What does it mean when workers I've met had to train their foreign replacements? America can do better. So tonight we say: help is on the way. What does it mean when Mary Ann Knowles, a woman with breast cancer I met in New Hampshire, had to keep working day after day right through her chemotherapy, no matter how sick she felt, because she was terrified of losing her family's health insurance. America can do better. And help is on the way. What does it mean when Deborah Kromins from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania works and saves all her life only to find out that her pension has disappeared into thin air -- and the executive who looted it has bailed out on a golden parachute? America can do better. And help is on the way. What does it mean when 25 percent of the children in Harlem have asthma because of air pollution? America can do better. And help is on the way. What does it mean when people are huddled in blankets in the cold, sleeping in Lafayette Park on the doorstep of the White House itself -- and the number of families living in poverty has risen by three million in the last four years? America can do better. And help is on the way." And, Kerry beamed through on an issue that has been in Bush's favor, faith. "And let me say it plainly: In that cause, and in this campaign, we welcome people of faith. America is not us and them. I think of what Ron Reagan said of his father a few weeks ago, and I want to say this to you tonight: I don't wear my own faith on my sleeve. But faith has given me values and hope to live by, from Vietnam to this day, from Sunday to Sunday. I don't want to claim that God is on our side. As Abraham Lincoln told us, I want to pray humbly that we are on God's side. And whatever our faith, one belief should bind us all: The measure of our character is our willingness to give of ourselves for others and for our country." But moreover, Kerry rounded up his speech with his persoanl views on what patriotism, family, and his nation has meant to him in his long career of service, which drew awe to a majority of commentators. My only main criticism of his speech was his noticable attempt to be like Clinton in his use of hand gestures. He increased the use of them throughout the speech, and it was at times distracting. However, this well-written speech distracted that flaw with an impressive closure to this convention. ******************************************** Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you But if the bright lights don't receive you You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20 |
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catalinamoon
since 2000-06-03
Posts 9543The Shores of Alone |
I thought many of the speakers were outstanding. And Kerry lived up to my hopes for him. Sandra |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Well, if Kerry was so worried about being hasty about the war, why did he vote for it?!? I did watch the convention, you didn't have to post the whole transcript. He gave the typical Micheal Moore-ish stuff that those people in that building wanted to hear. And about morality and values? Give me a break.. Other things that piss me off about that convention--- Heinz Kerry--- What a struggle she had?? Come on.. she married a billionare who died and left her with everything. SOO HARD, what a struggle, eh? Edwards--Son of a millworker... anyone mention that his father was the boss? Not a fancy start, but not the lowly Abe Lincolin start that the party is trying to make it out to be. Clinton- Quite an elequant speaker, to be sure... but he let Bin Laden sit while he was planning 9-11 under our noses. Granted, that was a different world, but I still think he could have done more. I"m actually registered as an independent, for the record.. the Republican party has it's flaws too.. but for this election, I'm leaning right. Oh, make me Thine forever And should I fainting be Lord, let me never ever Outlive my love for Thee |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: This statement is without a doubt the most heartless I've ever read at PIP. I understand that it comes from one lacking in life experience but that hardly excuses it. To all of the youths that think they have the world figured out I only have one word; 'Peripetia.' |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Lovebug -- Thanks for your comments. It is very interesting to see other viewpoints. About Kerry voting for the war....I want to believe that he was influenced by 9/11 like everyone was and that his voters (after all he is a representative of the PEOPLE) supported his decision -- one must remember our whole country believed there was a LINK to Iraq (at least the majority) based on what Powell ("Mr. Credible") took to the UN. And it looked liked we got backed into a position where at that point we could not back down and save face. The intel the Senate received also urged them that there WERE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. Personally, I felt at the time we were being told the truth; maybe he did, too. I felt like I should give Kerry a second look after his speech. After all, there has been a world of negative spin on him. I was quite impressed (for the first time, I might add) with his ability to articulate without being stuck in the monitors. I believe he spoke from his heart. His problem is that representatives in the Congress and Senate are supposed to vote the way their voters want. He has now told us what he believes and if we put him in office, that is an affirmation of what we want. I think he will try to live up to those expectations. Yes, they are all politicians....and who can you believe. Well, I don't believe the current administration anymore. We have to have a leader...and I do believe it is time for a change. To put it bluntly, the direction our nation is going is frightening! NOAH -- I agree with you 90%. I would have given Edwards a 3 plus something. He was sick, and had been really sick -- I thought he was going to lose his voice at one point. He did come across a little aggressive about the war -- but I think his point was eluding to leaving our troops there with insufficient support. At least, I hope he wasn't indicating we were going to act unilaterally again (I have never thought that was how he felt from what I've read and heard of him). AND, OBAMA, ONCE AGAIN, WOW! |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Well Reb, I had to look it up. And once again I have to thank you for the education. Besides, I found a cool poem. http://adirondackreview.homestead.com/sage2.html and as for the topic of the thread, I'm taking my opinion to the voting booth, but I am enjoying the conversation.  |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Karen, thanks for adding that link. What a wonderful poem and how very pertinent! Local Rebel -- Thanks. Glad you're here. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Many thanks to you Blazey for the poem.. very nice.. the author should be at PIP! iliana  and a point of personal comfort -- much obliged Noah that you finally stopped centering your text!!  (now about the colors...) |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Awwwwwwww, Local Rebel, I know......! LOL! I just think colors are sooooooo pretty! (giggles) No, seriously, I only used the colors to categorize each evening. If I used one color, it would be an eyesore to hunt out each speech in the long thread. Love, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Anyway, here's my thought on this presidential race. It is almost heartaching in my opinion, it truly is. Looking back in history, I find it starkly resemblant to the Election of 1964, when Lyndon B. Johnson went against Barry Goldwater after JFK's assassination. They saw Vietnam beginning to erupt, and more and more spoke out through the years ahead. Many thought if they had elected LBJ then the tragedy would stop. Sadly, it didn't and LBJ only made Vietnam worse, then Nixon catastrophic. I never actually grew up then, but I hear all the time from my friends and colleagues of that era and relating to them, 2004 feels so familiar. I almost feel ashamed to admit that I don't know what to think. I am ashamed, but I've got to be honest, that is the truth. I'm aware that Kerry voted for the war in the beginning, then voted against the $87 billion in funding for Iraq later. I strongly feel like many of our senators, Kerry's vote was due to misleading evidence, and then voting against the fund later was his statement saying, "We've been had, and I cannot keep funding this error!". I don't know how relevant that may be, nevertheless I do know one thing. WE NEED A CHANGE. I'm aware of what Edwards said on his Wednesday speech, him talking about adding 40,000 to the military and doubling special forces, something I don't particularly agree with. Nevertheless I also am aware that 95% of Democratic delegates have officially said they're against the war, and a little less against the Patriot Act. I feel in my heart Kerry and Edwards are trying to get to the moderate ground, like politicians do in every campaign, and their real agenda is following the majority interest. I have seen so many wrong things the Bush Administration has done wrong, and I say "Anyone can easily do better!". Within the next three months, I think we'll be finding that we're more than just angry pacifists or patriots, we are also upset and hungry anthropologists, trying to figure out who we are, how we are different and where we went wrong. The truth is, we must learn to settle our differences, regardless of political party and preference, and think like one another and come to a collected common conscience. Now you all know I am liberally-minded. I won't deny that and I won't debate with those with differing political beliefs. But there is also a plane beyond our political platforms that divide us, America itself. We MUST unite in a common conscience as soon as possible, or we'll continue to repeat elections such as this one from generation to generation. For a start, I know not evetyone is going to agree with me, but in my heart, I feel it is the right move. I see hundreds of groups forming, wanting a change so much with every ounce of their heart. And, though still troubled with the possible consequences Kerry might do like LBJ, I know so many are disappointed with Bush. So I've put my foot down. I'm voting kerry-Edwards, and I know in a short time-frame, it may be controversial. But in a long time-frame, I believe many will be thanking me. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Noah, I am not a Liberal.....I USED TO BE a Republican....but I agree with what you've said. -- I suppose I would be classified as a Demlibrep....hehehe....no, really, it's that middle ground that we are going to have to reach before there is further division in this country. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
quote: ROTFLMAO! that is hilarious! Can I use that one in my next political write? LOL, I think it might actually be a viable party! |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I was 14 years old in 1964, Noah, and I see no similarity at all. Few had even heard of Vietnam, let alone knew where it was or what our role there would be. The era that some would later call Camelot had ended, but we didn't really know that at the time. Hippies and peace signs and Woodstock, like the flowers eventually chosen to represent them, were yet seedlings, still struggling to find the sun. In start contrast to the election of 2004, we still had hope. quote: What a truly frightening thought. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
"What a truly frightening thought" C'mon, you know what I'm taking about. I am not meaning or asking for conformity here. We can unite without conforming. How hopelessly utopian is it, really, to embrace each other as Americans, not as the red or blue? As far as I'm concerned, we STILL are trying to find ourselves. That's OK, in the mess of things, that's also the beauty of it. Those who aren't are holding the progress back. Or else, why are we so divided right now? Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you But if the bright lights don't receive you You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20 |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Midnitesun -- you sure can! I actually am very firm in my beliefs.....and that's about as close a description as I can find...if that makes any sense at all. Amazing, there is no one candidate running that fits my bill to a tea, huh??? duh.....and laughter......jo |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Ron -- Heaven forbid uniformity/conformity... that might come someday if things continue like they are. Or maybe, that's just the limited view I get down here in right-wing heaven. Thanks for posting and sure don't want to offend anyone with my opinions.......jo |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Heartless, whatever! Is it NOT true? I live in Morgantown WV, the home of WVU and just south of Pittsburgh PA. Yes, Pittsburgh, Heinz country. The lady owns EVERYTHING there, and everyone I've talked to about it here in liberal university town USA have said similar things about her. (Actually, they say *really* mean things, if you think I'm the devil) I think it's a lot worse to think that the war was in vain, and that we should have just let Saddam keep killing his people. I think this was a long time in coming... I know that Kerry was among ALL of the Americans who recieved bad information about Iraq.. but this bad information came from British intel.. and even Putin said that his intel gave the information as well. If we're going to excuse Kerry for going on bad intel, why not Bush? He heard the same things.. Oh, make me Thine forever |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
OOh.. and I'm not red or blue.. I'm.. white, I guess? Oh, make me Thine forever |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
LoveBug, what you say is interesting. Everyone whose not rich has a tendency to wish they were, sometimes resentful tendencies. I find myself guilty of that at times. Have we ever had a president or a president wife who wasn't? I live in Bush country and I hear a lot of things, too. Some of the things I've heard were from people he used to party with (I guess before he was married) -- and I've overlooked all that because everyone is young once. The problem I have with Bush and his administration (administration is equally important here) is what happened after the invasion. The apparent lack of planning and calculation of how the Arab world would react. The other thing that bothers me is our standing in the world community. A few years ago, we had a guest from Finland. She was young, maybe 24 or 25. One night in a conversation, she brought up the fact that everyone she knew thought we lived in a police state. Well, I laughed at the time, I thought it was so ridiculous. But now, I don't think it's that funny......this is the way that young people throughout the world view what's going on in our country. Others throughout the world view our government (and even its citizens sometimes) as being one of the following: ignorant; arrogant; self-absorbed; and power hungry. Just ask some of our own young people who are expatriated (living in foreign countries). I would like to be able to travel abroad and know that our country was respected and admired -- I'd like to see the negative image changed. I actually do think that Kerry would be savy to how the rest of the world perceives us, and does care about that -- that's a plus for him in my opinion. We cannot segregate ourselves from the world; those days are long gone. We are citizens of not only the U.S. but of the planet Earth. We are going to exterminate the world or we are going to be exterminated unless we (and other nations) learn how to cooperate with each other. I see the upcoming election as extremely important because of these things, just to name a few. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
Lovebug quote: You mean a politician told his party what they wanted to hear? Wow that's new And what exactly was Micheal Moorish?quote: What LR said. quote: Hey didn't Clinton have Al Queda camps bombed only to have Republicans call it a diversion tactic? I must have just dreamt that. By the way if it's a matter of sitting, why not call Bush into account when his administration failed to address or even hold meetings on terrorist activity until after 9/11.quote: So the bad intel was the Brits fault? Fine let's assume it so, at least for the African connection. That still leaves other info that has proved false, intel used despite disclaimers by the CIA, discredited information by investigative teams and Oak Ridges analysts, and those er...vast stockpiles of wmds. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
I realize that running for President takes a lot of money, and that most presidents were rich, but what peeves me sooo much about the Kerry/Edwards ticket is that they try to pretend like they're just the normal American families. Actually, they are the richest ticket to run ever! Ever ever ever It's not the fact that they are rich that bothers me (I'm not exactly poor anyway), it's the fact that they try to pretend that they aren't. And about the intel.. the 9-11 commission even stated that Bush was given bad information, why is that so hard for people to believe? I also believe that the CIA did a crappy job as well, but I don't think that Bush had anything to do with that. They traced the CIA's crappy jobs back to before Clinton. (Clinton who, by the way, bombed a place or two but when he didn't get his man, backed off. I realize as well that he was distracted by the scandals at home as well, and that he didn't want to look too aggressive in the pre 9-11 world) About our impact around the world.. my boyfriend is Canadian so I'm not exactly isolated from world opinion. A lot of people don't have a good view of the US... but it seems to have been that way for as long as I can remember.. why is everyone making it out to be something new? And the Heinz-Kerry thing.. as I said.. is it not true? The wording might have been a bit crude, and I'm sure she had her share of hard times and such, but who hasn't? I'm certainly not shedding any tears for her. Oh, make me Thine forever And should I fainting be Lord, let me never ever Outlive my love for Thee |
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LoveBug
Moderator
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since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Oh, Kerry's going to be in WV today.. you think they'll let me in? Oh, make me Thine forever |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
LoveBug, they probably would....lol It is true, our image has been declining ever since the contra affair....probably even before that.....but I think it worsened when the apparent agenda of many administrations was to "push" democracy and "intervene" in places. We grew up here in America believing it was our responsibility to set the world free. What does everybody think about that? |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
"As long as I can remember"... it proves that it's not that new, but my memory probably only extends back 15 years or so :P Ever since the World Wars, we have believed, for the most part, that isolationism is wrong. I still think that, but does anyone have some arguments for isolationism? You nice liberal people  , do you think that it's just this instance and a few others ('Nam, esc) that are too far, and that entering in the World Wars, for example, was justified? I always thought that we waited to long, especailly in WWII, to jump in. We only got involved when we really saw that the United States was threatened. Europe was in shambles and millions were being methodically killed, but we did nothing until it hurt us. I know the intel about the Holocaust, esc, may have been limited, but I think FDR knew, to some extent, what was happening. I always thought that was selfish, but are there arguments to the contrary? Oh, make me Thine forever And should I fainting be Lord, let me never ever Outlive my love for Thee |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
LoveBug....I hope you were not calling me a Liberal....I am not, although on some issues, they have some strong points! |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Erica, if you think isolationism is wrong then you believe in a liberal principle. The nation's leading liberal, FDR, wanted to get involved to help China against the Japanese and Europe against Hitler. Was it the liberals who were chanting America First? Have you ever heard of Pat Buchanan? You have quite a bit of history to learn yet. Why was one of GW's strong positions prior to 9/11 to be steadfastly against nation-building? quote: Someone who measures people by their pocketbook is indeed... poor. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
quote: Because it's called scapegoating, if the CIA warns you against certain information and you use it regardless, who's fault is it? With regards to other intel, if your OWN investigative team dismisses is it along with the nation's leading Nuclear facility, and you use the intel anyway, who's fault is that? The intelligence community is getting most of the blame and rightfully so for some aspects. But the fact remains that some of the intel used by the administration shouldn't have been. quote: As opposed to good ole Dubya Bush n Cheney's modest roots? quote: It's not new, but renewed. Over the course of the Clinton administration, most foreign relations were at their peaks. Clinton managed to build friendships and trust that Bush has all but irradicated in one fell swoop. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
"Someone who measures people by their pocketbook is indeed... poor" Geez, don't get all bent out of shape. It's nice how you're throwing personal insults at me. And you think I'M immature.. and it's not the fact that she's rich that peeves me, it's the fact that she WANTS everyone to look up to her and admire her for fighting some uphill battle. Marrying into money isn't exactly a big uphill battle. She was at her HUSBAND'S convention and all she could talk about was herself. Thats not something I want to admire, and thats not something I want in a First Lady. I wasn't calling anyone a liberal, but I just wanted to know what the liberals who visit this thread think. And I never said that Bush wasn't rich, but he doesn't pretend like he isn't. (I believe I've said that already anyway) I also said that most presidents were rich, but Kerry/Edwards pretend to be something they aren't, and THATS why they piss me off. If anti-isolationism is a liberal principle, how come all of the liberals are wanting to 'mind our own business' and 'get out of Iraq'? Oh, make me Thine forever And should I fainting be Lord, let me never ever Outlive my love for Thee |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Spin at best Erica... here's what you said; quote: So, if you're rich, losing your husband and father of your children isn't a struggle. And she certainly isn't worthy of your sympathy or empathy. It is the limits of your partisanship that are going personal. Dole and Mitchell are friends Erica. Reagan and O'Neil were friends. Kerry and McCain. Nixon and Mgovern. The list is endless. Should some Democrat say Nancy isn't worthy of our sympathy because she married rich? And powerful? quote: The purpose of her speech (which was a really fine one and the first time I've heard a potential first-lady speak without hearing 'Don't cry for me Argentina' playing in my head in a really long time -- which is my theme song for HRC btw) was to introduce HER to the public. So that we can know who she is -- the person that comes as a part of the deal. Her 'struggle' was growing up in a part of the world where freedom wasn't known. That is something you apparently have no appreciation for. And if that's your opinion that's fine. But, how dare you? How dare you belie her grief and loss? One day you will discover something you would give up a billion dollars to have. And liberals are not saying we should 'mind our own business and get out of Iraq' -- what they are saying is that war wasn't necessary or the correct action to take.... there is a huge difference. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Fox News constantly quotes the Washington Times. Recently, I read that it was owned by Rev. Sun Myung Moon of the Unification Church. I just wondered if anyone has done research on him. I found out a lot; including he was recently crowned the messiah and king of the world -- did ya'all know that???? And did you know it took place in the presence of some of our high ranking politicians on Capitol Hill in a government office building?! There is so much we don't know. The internet can reveal a lot but there's spin on it, too. I would say....believe it when you see it; if you hear it; you can probably believe it about 50% of the time; if you read it, about 50% of the time. Maybe those percentages should be less? Anyway, do your homework, Lovebug; you'll enjoy doing it....just search out his name and see what you find. LoveBug, here one link for you. http://www.consortiumnews.com/2001/010301a.html and http://gadflyer.com/articles/?ArticleID=131 or http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61932-2004Jun22.html -- this is from an independent publication for excellence in journalism [This message has been edited by iliana (07-31-2004 11:46 PM).] |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Lots of people lose their loved ones. Most of them don't get anything out of it except for memories. My aunt, for example, is a widow, and she didn't get attention, money, or marry again into a position of power (again!). It's not that I don't have sympathy for widows, MOST widows have to struggle without any help. As I said, she's trying to make herself out to be something that she isn't.. just like her husband and just like her husband's running mate. And actually, I did think of Eva Peron when I heard her speech. I think she wants power more than her husband does. Don't pretend like I don't know what it's like to lose someone. How dare YOU. You don't know anything about me. I'm going to learn a lesson soon? Is that a threat? Oh, make me Thine forever And should I fainting be Lord, let me never ever Outlive my love for Thee |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Geeeeeeez.....I sure didn't mean to start a thread where people get offended. Local Rebel said: ____________________ But, how dare you? How dare you belie her grief and loss? One day you will discover something you would give up a billion dollars to have. _____________________ LoveBug said: _____________________ Don't pretend like I don't know what it's like to lose someone. How dare YOU. You don't know anything about me. I'm going to learn a lesson soon? Is that a threat? ______________________ LoveBug, I think there's been a misunderstanding. I did not read Reb's comment as a threat, just a reality of life that perhaps this billionaire cares enough about this nation she is willing to spend a billion on its ideals or something like that (Reb, forgive me if I've paraphrased badly). Nor do I really think he meant to insult you. I have to agree with him about belieing anyone's grief. You said it best....we don't know you....we don't know anything about you. Everyone suffers grief and loss and I suspect you have had your share, too. So, how can we belie Mrs. Kerry's grief...how can you really say you know who she is...have you met her? Have you been involved in any of her charities? Well, no, I haven't either, but I am not going to prejudge her based on what I HEAR. Please don't be offended. It is easy to get caught up in the heat of political or religious discussions. We are all entitled to our opinions, but please, everybody, let's not bicker here. We are all friends here.  |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
iliana well said. As for this: quote: Is that really true? Quite a disturbing thought. Ironically, I just read that Bush recently paid a visit to said Rev. this month. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Ralph, read the links I provided. If you do a search on the net, you'll find a ton of info. I believe it is true from what I've read. Have found fairly credible sources. Yes...it's frightening! |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
I never said she didn't feel grief, I'm just saying that she's just one of many, and just because she lost someone doesn't mean that she's had to struggle so much more than anyone else. We've all lost people. I never meant to imply that I didn't feel for her because she lost someone, I was just saying that I don't feel that she has had things so horribly bad off in her life, and the fact that she's trying to portray something other than that just pisses me off, thats all. Oh, make me Thine forever And should I fainting be Lord, let me never ever Outlive my love for Thee |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Personally, I would deplore being in any First Lady's shoes, wouldn't you? No privacy..... |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
I agree Iliana the privacy and because I have very large feet, more suitable to Airwalks then to pumps. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
quote: Get a grip it's politics. Name one politician or their family members, who don't portray themselves as something else come election time. If it's such a major concern why not focus some of rage towards Bush skeleton's and the way he portrays himself? And to say "I don't feel that she has had things so horribly bad off in her life" is silly because it quantifies pain or suffering. All it takes is ONE event. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
 Ralph! As to the shoes thing. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
Grins and um...btw Raph or Raphael.. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Aenimal - Thanks, which do you really prefer? |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
Raph or Raf is fine with me. Ralph just makes me cringe because people assume that's the anglo version of my name but it's not. I hear Ralph I think of the big Sheepdog(or was it the coyote?) from Looney Tunes. Raplh n Sam. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Wasn't there a Disney movie with a Ralph sheepdog or something? Well, now my son has corrected me on that -- not a movie, just the cartoons. Okay, Raf it is! I just read this whole forum to my son.....he says "please refrain from flaming on forums." Geeezzzz, he's so grown up. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
The only thing of which I am aware that is threatening you Erica is the same thing that threatens us all. Time. Time is going to change you in ways that you cannot now anticipate. You will in time, no doubt, grow to love someone immeasurably. If, heaven forbid, you should lose him, 'Getting something' in lieu of having him will be no consolation whatsoever. Whether it is a billion dollars or meeting someone new. You would find comfort, love, and joy in your new love -- but it would not change the fact that you wished you never lost him. You would give up a billion dollars or more to have one more moment with him. (Which is my reference Iliana -- Teresa Heinz-Kerry has made the direct comment that she would give up everything if Mr. Heinz hadn't died. I was listening to Rush Limbaugh on Wednesday after Mrs. Heinz-Kerry's speech and one of his ardent ditto-heads called in and was lambasting her for keeping 'Heinz' as part of her name and that she couldn't really love Kerry for keeping it having made the comment that she would give up everything. To his credit Mr. Limbaugh had the soul and sensitivity to chastise said caller for getting too personal and said very nearly the same thing that you have -- that we just don't know what goes on in the minds and hearts of people and some things are just off limits.) When it is your time for loss Erica -- I don't expect that you will want anyone to tell you to just buck up -- you're just one of many -- everyone suffers loss. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
I will say it yet again. I wasn't belittling her LOSS, I'm just saying that her life isn't significantly worse than the average American's life is. She didn't even focus that much on her first husband in the speech I was talking about. She talked about her low roots and background, esc.. and I was just saying that it's not like she actually worked for all those billions anyway. I never said that the money replaced her husband or anything, I just said that it doesn't make her like the average American, because she isn't. You're putting words into my mouth. And it's nice of you to wish me suffering and loss. I've already had my share, thank you very much. I'm going to be the better person and wish that you DON'T suffer any loss. And you are also making a very wrong assumption about me (again) when you say that I will SOMEDAY love someone more than life. I already do, thank you. Oh, make me Thine forever And should I fainting be Lord, let me never ever Outlive my love for Thee |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
I remember A Ralph the sheepdog, in one episode though I think the Coyote was Ralph for some reason. Then there was Ralph S. Mouse a book by Beeverly Cleary and precursor to Stuart Little. Quite frankly I remember too much. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
I did absolutely nothing of the sort. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
You keep going on about when I get my loss or suffer my loss (I've lost several dear people, thank you). Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
Then you should know better than to imply that because she's a billionare she doesn't deserve compassion for her loss and pain. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
I wasn't denying compassion for her loss, as I've said HOW many times now?! I was just saying that she didn't really do very much to move from her beginnings to where she is today, and thats why I don't feel like she's some big person to be admired. Nobody deserves to lose a husband, but I just don't think that she's some wonderful rags to riches story.. You are ALL missing (ignoring)my point, attacking me personally and putting words in my mouth. Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
And that is wishing you loss? This has by far surpassed absurdity. Raph -- you have omitted the most important Ralph of them all? (c'mon -- you know who I'm talking about! ) |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
The absurd thing is that you both keep ignoring the parts where I say I'm not belittling her loss, that I just don't admire her as someone who went from a lowly background to riches, because it's nothing that she did herself. If Kerry was the only one she had married and gave her all that money, I'd be saying the exact same thing. Oh, make me Thine forever |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Local Rebel -- thanks for the comments. You're a gentleman and a scholar! lol I understand what you are saying. LoveBug -- Personally, I don't care if she had a rags to riches story or not. She is not going to be running the White House. She's going to be decorating the White House. She, I believe, is well respected abroad, well educated, articulate, and not afraid of bullies. I have some admiration for her because she speaks her mind, in several different languages, I might add. I have nothing against Mrs. Bush; she seems like a sweet, subserviant woman, and very appealing to the right wing. I happen to like her, too. I just don't care which one of them gets in. It's the President I care about! |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
I don't care if she had a rags to riches story either, only that she tried to make it seem that way. She's trying to suck up and say "Oh if you're homeless you can be a billionare someday like me". If that was due to her starting her own business, esc.. then that would be something to admire, but that isn't how she came across that money, so I don't think it is. That doesn't mean that I'm some fiend that thinks that she didn't love her husband, I'm just saying that she didn't own or run the business, so the money didn't come as a result of anything she did. I just don't think that that's really so special. I'd rather be on my path, a music teacher, and have it be something that I've earned, and not something that was given to me, as oppsed to having billions. It doesn't have anything to do with her husbands death or if she loved him or whatever.. THATS ALL.. geez Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
Ralph Kramden? Or Nader? lol |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
LoveBug -- a music teacher. Now that is a fine profession! I just hope the funding is still in the public schools for you, because you know the arts have been very much ignored by the current administration. And when times get tough, the music departments suffer....never the football teams, unfortunately. How do I know this....I majored in music ed at one point in my long process of growing up. Also, my daughter is a Juilliard grad with her masters.....mostly scholarship and loans....no we are not wealthy...we are average income. My daughter's tuition went up under the Bush administration twice, both times by at least a couple thousand dollars a year and the scholarships and work study available went down! |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Ralph Nader, now there is an interesting guy! I think with him, what you see is what you get. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Of course Cramdon... Kramden? sp? anyone? Not Nader. Nader has relegated himself to little significance. Unlike a parliamentary system here -- a third party candidate cannot garner any power. In Canada a third party vote can translate into seats in the parliament and therefore a voice in selecting the PM... here... nada...zip... that's Nadar... nada... zip.. He could be putting his energy into something that would actually consolidate his position... but, no... he'd rather take the money from Republicans to make another pointless, vain, run. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Reb, I have to agree with you....maybe in the end, he'll cut a deal for a position or something where he can make a difference, I hope, I hope. Oh, and, I looked it up; it's Cramdon. If you're talking about Ralph Cramdon of The Honeymooners, that is. lol |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
I wasn't sure either but checked before I wrote it, most sites I found and TVLand list it as Kramden. Nader and Republicans funding Nader make me sick(edited for the kiddies) As for the Canadian system your absolutely right, this happened recently as the NDP(shivers) managed to get enough votes to make the Liberals a minority government in the Federal election. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Watching the Canadian elections (I did, I did!) was a bit confusing for me, the virgin to Canadian elections (virgin to a lot of things actually ), but I don't guess it's any more confusing than our 2000 election was. I remember first learing about how the electoral college went, and asking "So, even if one nominee had the most votes, the one who had the most votes that COUNT would win?" and thinking that was a bit silly. Was I psychic? Your daughter is in Julliard? Awesome, what's her instrument? I'm voice (they say I'll be lyric Soprano). As for public schools, every one I've been to throughout my education (and three presidents) had about the same quality of music education (underfunded, sometimes nonexistant. I learned the most from my private tutor, which still didn't amount to a WHOLE lot once I got into univeristy.. it got me in though, and it got me started, thats the important thing!). As for the tuition.. I go to a state school, and under the current administration, the state was able to impliment a program where if you have good test scores and grades (and keep a good GPA in univ.) that you have a full tuition waiver for a WV state school. Not all bad from Bush, eh? Oh, make me Thine forever |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
LoveBug -- Her major was opera studies -- she used to be a high bright mezzo but she is changing and going higher -- she will ultimately be a dramatic soprano, I believe. It is a tough, expensive road to follow if you want a performance career. She is about as good as it gets for her age (24) but getting "good" gigs being that young is tough for someone that good unless you are really lucky and well-funded...know all the right people, etc. She has been very lucky so far...scholarships, performances, etc., but now that she's out of school, the real challenge is just starting. I've heard most people's careers don't really take off until they're about 30. In the meantime, it's so easy to get side-tracked earning a living. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for her. Well, now, that's a bit off point of this thread, huh? Oh, well, it's all about sharing, right? Back on track a little now....I thought state schools were state funded....I guess I must be a little behind on that. I just know how her tuition has increased and how the scholarships awarded aren't as big as they used to be at her school. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
I was told that I could possibly be dramatic soprano when I hit 40 or so, lol. I go fairly high but I have a richer lower range than some sopranos do. They say it's hard to really tell the direction the voice will take before the age of 25 or so, so I guess it's all just an educated guess at this point. I'm not going to be a performer though, so I probably won't be singing ALL that much when I hit 40 anyway Best of luck to your daughter though. Maybe, to get some money while she waits, she could give lessons. I'd love to learn from a Julliard graduate! The money did come from the state, but I think that the astonishing thing is that WV, one of the poorest states in the USA, was able to flourish enough to be able to afford such a huge program under his admin. Oh, make me Thine forever And should I fainting be Lord, let me never ever Outlive my love for Thee |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
About the school funding....you must have a good governor and some good state legislators who know how to manage money. I can't say I would give the Bush admin. credit for that -- that's local. I would call that your own hard work meaning your state's doing. Speaking for Texas, our schools have declined, tremendously. Sounds like your voice type is similar to my daughters. She does plan on giving lessons and to work part-time until she starts earning enough performing. There are many apprentice programs, etc., which you probably know all about, which she will audition for, and prize money competitions, etc. So, I'm just keeping my fingers crossed. Good luck with your career. [This message has been edited by iliana (08-01-2004 06:42 PM).] |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
I think it was good work all the way around, thats just me though... Bush did win WV last time, the first Republican president to do so in a long time. I think he'll win the state again.. it'll be closer, but I think his values will win it for him. Very conservative down here. Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I'm curious, Erica, how you can feel that way about money but apparently don't feel the same about talent? I mean, it's not like you actually worked for all that talent you have. Your musical genes were a gift, one that I was sorely denied (I could spend the rest of my life at Julliard and still be unable to play even the radio in the right key). Maybe it's less about what we are given and more about what we do with the gift? If so, it sounds to me like you and Mrs. Heinz-Kerry are both working hard to turn your gifts into something meaningful. No one is obligated to praise you for that, of course, but I think it would be rather grudging if that was all they could find to criticize. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
quote: Ron, AMEN! to that, and thank you! |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
I may have been born with some talent, but I can assure that I work my butt off to keep up around here. All talent needs work and refinement to count for anything. (I also worked hard to earn the scholarships I have, so that I can be here, working on getting more talent) I don't think there's really any comparison. Oh, make me Thine forever And should I fainting be Lord, let me never ever Outlive my love for Thee |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
LoveBug, I think you misunderstand what Ron is saying. My read on his comment was that music genes are a gift. There are people who don't have that gift (e.g., my brother is totally tone deaf). Yes, I agree to perfect the gift, one must work. But who says that Mrs. Kerry doesn't work. I really don't believe she is sitting on her butt eating bonbons all day -- no, she is working. I just don't get your comparison or why it is so important to you. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Actually if you look at the electoral map http://www.electoral-vote.com/ West Virginia is in the 'barely Kerry' block at the moment. It will be close. I wonder, looking at this map, how many Dems who were screaming to abolish the Electoral College back in 2k would be saying the same thing now with Kerry at 19 over the 270 votes needed to win and Bush at only 232. There's plenty of time for the map to change yet. But electorally speaking the race just isn't as close as it is being portrayed by the popular vote -- 48 to 45. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Local Rebel - thanks for that link. The info is much appreciated!  |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
This page http://www.electoral-vote.com/info/graph.html charts the electoral votes over time -- interesting effect of the death of Reagan, with no appreciable influence from f9/11, but the Edwards announcement gave a significant bounce and then the Democratic Convention shows it leveling off... if these trends mean anything the Republican Convention could have an impact -- and there will be the debates as well -- but this year it seems like people have their minds made up. The real question will be -- since people already know who Bush is -- and didn't really know Kerry (that is to say the majority of the people) until the convention... how will the Reps Convention be able to make an impact? They're going to be rolling out Republicans who are all very similar in position to Kerry/Edwards... McCain, Schwartzenegger, Giulianni... strange politics. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Very strange, indeed, I agree. I noticed the similarity of many things and have been doing my research ever since the primaries but I don't quite follow the statistics -- more the personalities. I read a couple of bios on the Bush family, etc., because I wanted to know GWHB's family roots and if he had new money or old. Surprise, surprise....the Bush family pretty much has a large chunk of the capital investment game, not to mention the joint ventures they share with the Saudis...conflict of interest???? I'd like to hear what you know about all this since I know you are far more versed on this topic than me, Reb. And, what about Kerry's skeletons -- or have we heard them all already. I mean I have heard he was in the same frat as GWB -- Yale's Skull and Bones; I've also heard he was born with a Jewish last name and changed it to Kerry so his initials would be JFK......how much of that is true. But then, I've read that the Bushs are all tied up with Sung Myung Moon and there seems to be no dispute over that... just not well publicized. Also read that GWB was visiting (I think it was having dinner with) John Hinkley's brother at the time John Hinkley put a bullet in Reagan, and that the brother was involved in the CIA. Just curious. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
I'm just saying that if Mrs Kerry was like "I worked hard to get to where I am because I have my OWN business (or I'm a doctor or a rocket scientist or whatever)" it would have had more impact than just the fact that she married into that money. I'm just saying that having that fall into your lap is a lot different from getting an imperfect talent that takes a lot of work and usually doesn't result in very much, when everything is said and done. If I hadn't worked hard and practiced in high school, I would have never gone to university for music at all. It's not like I woke up with the perfect voice (heck,I'm not even close to being the best in my state school...). So I DO believe that I worked to attain most of the talent I have. Oh, make me Thine forever And should I fainting be Lord, let me never ever Outlive my love for Thee |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Well Iliana, I went to a party with Paul McCartney but that didn't make me a Beatle or even a top 40 pop star. If you've ever played the Kevin Bacon game then you know that if you grasp hard enough you can put two things together at some point. It may be a fact. But what does it mean? I could say that I have 'ties' to Paul McCartney and it might be remotely true. But, I look at most of this kind of stuff with as much disdain as I have for Dick Cheny trying to tie Saddam Hussein to Al Qaida. I've found enough that I can dislike about Bush and Cheney that's a matter of public record. Every politician has people that he's beholdin to. I think it's just important to look at who that cast of characters is, what the principles of the man are, what his ideas are, who the people are that are closest to him. And then go from there. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
"If you've ever played the Kevin Bacon game then you know that if you grasp hard enough you can put two things together at some point" nodding here, six degrees of separation, they say, that is all that divides us. Remember that game we played in serenity's garden, and the exclamation of "we must be related!" It's cause we are related. (Serenity types firmly with full use evident of both opposable thumbs.) y'see what I mean? I hope so. Lovebug? Peace, lady. If you're feeling a bit defensive about YOUR life, imagine how SHE feels 'bout now? sighs and mutters exiting |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Local Rebel -- True, true....I guess that's the gossipy woman in me. And, ummmm, I love a good mystery, too, I guess. I'm almost afraid to put what I know is on the public record with regard to the current pres. When working for a certain national legal publication, I reported one of the very little publicized lawsuits in my homestate which had to do with the lottery scandal here. Need I say more. The story was kept out of the national publication and limited to local distribution (and this was supposed to be an independent media source for lawmakers, at the time)!! Geeeeez Shall I go on.....shall I tell you that while my husband worked for Haliburton in Indonesia, that his branch of the company was sold out beneath him and we were the only family in Indonesia that did not know for six months how we would get back to the U.S. because my husband's contract was sold, as well and he was not offered a renewal; and the purchaser took no responsibility for us and that this felt to be very intentional! So much for the H story.....guess who was in charge at that time?? I know that should not have any bearing on my feelings, but there is so much more, being that I'm from Houston....word gets around, yaknow?. And with the whole B family, there's that trail of business entites that the same names keep popping up in; or maybe their brothers names or father's name, and that is on the record, sharing distintion with some royalty from Saudi Arabia. I see conflict of interest written all over everything with this current administration. I don't know if he's a good man or a bad man, a smart man (with a speech problem) or a dumb man. His job is to serve us, and I see conflict of interest. And as for the C guy, well, I have no doubt he's a smart guy, and likeable, but, once again, conflict of interest. Okay.....nuf of my ranting. Whew, must be the moon. Came back to add this: I agree...we should look at the record. But as to the man's principles....how can you really tell with any politician except to see if his actions match his words. And even that is confusing because of all of the supposed "Bush Quotes." Maybe he really does mean some of the things he's said....hehehe ...I guess I'm taking this a little too far. It's redundant to say his principles are capitalistic; yes, the buck stops with him. (pun intended) How do we know that isn't true of all politicians? Karen & Reb -- I know that game. I stink at it. My daughter used to drive me nuts with it. But, it is true, I think....just 6. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
--and thats why I'm not in public office. :P Another thing I thought of today: Kerry... he's all for eliminating fossil fuels. WV is basically ran on coal. It's our number 1 industry, and believe me, this state will die if he cuts that out. No people, no taxes, (no people buying lotto tickets!) no scholarship. I guess there's more at stake with me than I thought :P Oh, make me Thine forever And should I fainting be Lord, let me never ever Outlive my love for Thee |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Kerry is for ending our dependence on foreign oil... something that our President also (claims to) favors. Fossil fuels will eliminate themselves. Iliana -- I wouldn't equate this particular phenomenon to any gender -- there are plenty of male talk-show hosts generating all kinds of conspiracy theories all the time... for their mostly male audiences. It's human nature to be curious when we hear things like this... Don't recall the speaker right at the moment but there is an old saying... 'Who decieves the goverment (the people?) The one who keeps his thoughts to himself.' We have an ongoing responsibility to stay engaged (and it's good that Erica feels that calling so early in life -- I made my oldest daughter watch only one hour of the convention for a civics lesson and she wanted to know why she was being punished!) and root out these kinds of issues -- but seriously -- a 'vast' conspiricy takes a lot of secrecy and we live in a day and age when there are cameras on everything and the President of the United States can't even get a you know what in the Oval Office without the whole world finding out about it. Blazey -- I prefer to hope I'm further than six degrees from Hitler and Osama... but, somebody who really wanted to could probably connect us? Peace all.. ! |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Yes, LoveBug, you said it yourself, there is more to stake with you than you thought. There is a whole lot more. The lottery I was referring to was not the money game, BTW. And, if all of our fossil fuel is gone, then what???? Shall we keep raping the Earth. We are smarter than that. There are other forms of fuel, and believe me, those big businesses who are currently into fossil fuel are already spending their money on research into alternative forms of fuel, I'd bet you on it, because they keep wanting to make money. I used to work for Armco Steel when I was a little bit older than you. They were involved in the mining business, too. Believe me, the things I know from true experience....any large company has contingency plans for venturing out into other ways to make money; and sometimes, they use layoff as a way to redistribute funds for those purposes. There will be other kinds of jobs. At some point in time, we have to stop taking everything there is thinking it's always going to replenish itself. It does, but it takes thousands and thousands of years. Alternative energies should be a priority!!!! When I was 18 years old I was selected by my high school to attend a symposium on this very topic at the University of Cincinnati with some of the top scientists in the U.S. to lecture us. We were told then that we were going to run out of these types of fuels in our lifetime and there were lectures on encouragement of the group of about 1000 to plan for the future with regard to learning about preserving the ecology and brainstorming for alternative energy. If we don't get blown up by terrorists, we will not survive anyway unless we learn to live in harmony with mother nature! Just a thought. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Local Rebel, no argument from me. You are right, it is great LoveBug is interested and talking. LoveBug, that's a compliment -- shows great leadership skills. Back to you you Reb, I am LOL to your comment about Hitler and Osama. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
You're right about the coal running out, esc.. but another problem about WV is the avaliability of land for companies to build on, and the accessability, especially in southern WV (where I'm from originally and where the conditions are the worst). Kerry voted against mountaintop removal, so there goes any land for decent roads and building. I'm not enviroment-hater, but I think there's a balance. We can have our mountains (which are beautiful) and also find a way to make a living. And I don't understand why so many young people are indifferent. It's shocking.. I mean, the young people who are fighting in the wars around the world are mostly around my age. I shouldn't be an oddity. Even my university friends (who you'd except to know more.. [wrong]) were like "convention? I thought that was like, in November". :P Ah, tomorrow's leaders.. Oh, make me Thine forever And should I fainting be Lord, let me never ever Outlive my love for Thee |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
No I didn't Jo...I tried, but became really tired of hearing the hypocracy of the rah rah speaches, God Bless American...the Land of the People, by the People and for the People...and couldn't help but think, sheeesh, and then Sharpton came on...I know his ex wife personally, and can honestly say, I don't really like that guy...and Kerry's wife is elegant and very much a lady, but still living back in the 60's. I dunno, maybe it's me? I've just lost trust in our leaders of this country...all things seem to be voted upon with the idea of money and whats in it for "me". Thanks for the chance Jo, to join in and ponder... Hugs...Lee J. |
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