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Passions in Poetry

Democratic Convention

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Ron
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25 posted 07-31-2004 01:19 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I find it starkly resemblant to the Election of 1964, when Lyndon B. Johnson went against Barry Goldwater after JFK's assassination. I never actually grew up then, but I hear all the time from my friends and colleagues of that era and relating to them, 2004 feels so familiar.

I was 14 years old in 1964, Noah, and I see no similarity at all. Few had even heard of Vietnam, let alone knew where it was or what our role there would be. The era that some would later call Camelot had ended, but we didn't really know that at the time. Hippies and peace signs and Woodstock, like the flowers eventually chosen to represent them, were yet seedlings, still struggling to find the sun.

In start contrast to the election of 2004, we still had hope.

quote:
The truth is, we must learn to settle our differences, regardless of political party and preference, and think like one another

What a truly frightening thought.
Mistletoe Angel
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26 posted 07-31-2004 02:16 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

"What a truly frightening thought"

C'mon, you know what I'm taking about.

I am not meaning or asking for conformity here. We can unite without conforming.

How hopelessly utopian is it, really, to embrace each other as Americans, not as the red or blue? As far as I'm concerned, we STILL are trying to find ourselves. That's OK, in the mess of things, that's also the beauty of it. Those who aren't are holding the progress back. Or else, why are we so divided right now?

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20
iliana
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27 posted 07-31-2004 02:39 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Midnitesun -- you sure can!  I actually am very firm in my beliefs.....and that's about as close a description as I can find...if that makes any sense at all.  Amazing, there is no one candidate running that fits my bill to a tea, huh??? duh.....and laughter......jo
iliana
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28 posted 07-31-2004 02:42 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Ron -- Heaven forbid uniformity/conformity... that might come someday if things continue like they are.  Or maybe, that's just the limited view I get down here in right-wing heaven.  Thanks for posting and sure don't want to offend anyone with my opinions.......jo
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29 posted 07-31-2004 03:09 AM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

Heartless, whatever! Is it NOT true?

I live in Morgantown WV, the home of WVU and just south of Pittsburgh PA. Yes, Pittsburgh, Heinz country. The lady owns EVERYTHING there, and everyone I've talked to about it here in liberal university town USA have said similar things about her. (Actually, they say *really* mean things, if you think I'm the devil)

I think it's a lot worse to think that the war was in vain, and that we should have just let Saddam keep killing his people. I think this was a long time in coming...

I know that Kerry was among ALL of the Americans who recieved bad information about Iraq.. but this bad information came from British intel.. and even Putin said that his intel gave the information as well. If we're going to excuse Kerry for going on bad intel, why not Bush? He heard the same things..

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

LoveBug
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30 posted 07-31-2004 03:15 AM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

OOh.. and I'm not red or blue.. I'm.. white, I guess?

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

iliana
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31 posted 07-31-2004 03:35 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

LoveBug, what you say is interesting.  Everyone whose not rich has a tendency to wish they were, sometimes resentful tendencies.  I find myself guilty of that at times.  Have we ever had a president or a president wife  who wasn't?  I live in Bush country and I hear a lot of things, too.  Some of the things I've heard were from people he used to party with (I guess before he was married) -- and I've overlooked all that because everyone is young once.  The problem I have with Bush and his administration (administration is equally important here) is what happened after the invasion.  The apparent lack of planning and calculation of how the Arab world would react.  The other thing that bothers me is our standing in the world community.  A few years ago, we had a guest from Finland.  She was young, maybe 24 or 25.  One night in a conversation, she brought up the fact that everyone she knew thought we lived in a police state.  Well, I laughed at the time, I thought it was so ridiculous.  But now, I don't think it's that funny......this is the way that young people throughout the world view what's going on in our country.  Others throughout the world view our government (and even its citizens sometimes) as being one of the following:  ignorant; arrogant; self-absorbed; and power hungry.  Just ask some of our own young people who are expatriated (living in foreign countries).  I would like to  be able to travel abroad and know that our country was respected and admired -- I'd like to see the negative image changed.  I actually do think that Kerry would be savy to how the rest of the world perceives us, and does care about that -- that's a plus for him in my opinion.  We cannot segregate ourselves from the world; those days are long gone.  We are citizens of not only the U.S. but of the planet Earth.  We are going to exterminate the world or we are going to be exterminated unless we (and other nations) learn how to cooperate with each other.  I see the upcoming election as extremely important because of these things, just to name a few.  
Aenimal
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32 posted 07-31-2004 05:28 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Lovebug

quote:
He gave the typical Micheal Moore-ish stuff that those people in that building wanted to hear.


You mean a politician told his party what they wanted to hear? Wow that's new     And what exactly was Micheal Moorish?

quote:
Heinz Kerry--- What a struggle she had?? Come on.. she married a billionare who died and left her with everything. SOO HARD, what a struggle, eh?


What LR said.

quote:
Quite an elequant speaker, to be sure... but he let Bin Laden sit while he was planning 9-11 under our noses. Granted, that was a different world, but I still think he could have done more.


Hey didn't Clinton have Al Queda camps bombed only to have Republicans call it a diversion tactic? I must have just dreamt that. By the way if it's a matter of sitting, why not call Bush into account when his administration failed to address or even hold meetings on terrorist activity until after 9/11.

quote:
I know that Kerry was among ALL of the Americans who recieved bad information about Iraq.. but this bad information came from British intel..


So the bad intel was the Brits fault? Fine let's assume it so, at least for the African connection. That still leaves other info that has proved false, intel used despite disclaimers by the CIA, discredited information by investigative teams and Oak Ridges analysts, and those er...vast stockpiles of wmds.    
LoveBug
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33 posted 07-31-2004 09:27 AM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

I realize that running for President takes a lot of money, and that most presidents were rich, but what peeves me sooo much about the Kerry/Edwards ticket is that they try to pretend like they're just the normal American families. Actually, they are the richest ticket to run ever!

Ever ever ever

It's not the fact that they are rich that bothers me (I'm not exactly poor anyway), it's the fact that they try to pretend that they aren't.

And about the intel.. the 9-11 commission even stated that Bush was given bad information, why is that so hard for people to believe? I also believe that the CIA did a crappy job as well, but I don't think that Bush had anything to do with that. They traced the CIA's crappy jobs back to before Clinton. (Clinton who, by the way, bombed a place or two but when he didn't get his man, backed off. I realize as well that he was distracted by the scandals at home as well, and that he didn't want to look too aggressive in the pre 9-11 world)

About our impact around the world.. my boyfriend is Canadian so I'm not exactly isolated from world opinion. A lot of people don't have a good view of the US... but it seems to have been that way for as long as I can remember.. why is everyone making it out to be something new?

And the Heinz-Kerry thing.. as I said.. is it not true? The wording might have been a bit crude, and I'm sure she had her share of hard times and such, but who hasn't? I'm certainly not shedding any tears for her.

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee
LoveBug
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34 posted 07-31-2004 09:34 AM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

Oh, Kerry's going to be in WV today.. you think they'll let me in?

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

iliana
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35 posted 07-31-2004 12:47 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

LoveBug, they probably would....lol

It is true, our image has been declining ever since the contra affair....probably even before that.....but I think it worsened when the apparent agenda of many administrations was to "push" democracy and "intervene" in places.  We grew up here in America believing it was our responsibility to set the world free.  What does everybody think about that?  
LoveBug
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36 posted 07-31-2004 01:22 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

"As long as I can remember"... it proves that it's not that new, but my memory probably only extends back 15 years or so :P

Ever since the World Wars, we have believed, for the most part, that isolationism is wrong. I still think that, but does anyone have some arguments for isolationism? You nice liberal people   , do you think that it's just this instance and a few others ('Nam, esc) that are too far, and that entering in the World Wars, for example, was justified?

I always thought that we waited to long, especailly in WWII, to jump in. We only got involved when we really saw that the United States was threatened. Europe was in shambles and millions were being methodically killed, but we did nothing until it hurt us. I know the intel about the Holocaust, esc, may have been limited, but I think FDR knew, to some extent, what was happening. I always thought that was selfish, but are there arguments to the contrary?  



Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee
iliana
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37 posted 07-31-2004 01:30 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

LoveBug....I hope you were not calling me a Liberal....I am not, although on some issues, they have some strong points!
Local Rebel
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38 posted 07-31-2004 01:45 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Erica, if you think isolationism is wrong then you believe in a liberal principle.  

The nation's leading liberal, FDR, wanted to get involved to help China against the Japanese and Europe against Hitler.  Was it the liberals who were chanting America First?  Have you ever heard of Pat Buchanan?  You have quite a bit of history to learn yet.

Why was one of GW's strong positions prior to 9/11 to be steadfastly against nation-building?

quote:

And the Heinz-Kerry thing.. as I said.. is it not true? The wording might have been a bit crude, and I'm sure she had her share of hard times and such, but who hasn't? I'm certainly not shedding any tears for her.

I'm not exactly poor anyway



Someone who measures people by their pocketbook is indeed... poor.
Aenimal
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39 posted 07-31-2004 02:40 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
And about the intel.. the 9-11 commission even stated that Bush was given bad information, why is that so hard for people to believe?


Because it's called scapegoating, if the CIA warns you against certain information and you use it regardless, who's fault is it? With regards to other intel, if your OWN investigative team dismisses is it along with the nation's leading Nuclear facility, and you use the intel anyway, who's fault is that? The intelligence community is getting most of the blame and rightfully so for some aspects. But the fact remains that some of the intel used by the administration shouldn't have been.


quote:
I realize that running for President takes a lot of money, and that most presidents were rich, but what peeves me sooo much about the Kerry/Edwards ticket is that they try to pretend like they're just the normal American families. Actually, they are the richest ticket to run ever!


As opposed to good ole Dubya Bush n Cheney's modest roots?

quote:
About our impact around the world.. my boyfriend is Canadian so I'm not exactly isolated from world opinion. A lot of people don't have a good view of the US... but it seems to have been that way for as long as I can remember.. why is everyone making it out to be something new?


It's not new, but renewed. Over the course of the Clinton administration, most foreign relations were at their peaks. Clinton managed to build friendships and trust that Bush has all but irradicated in one fell swoop.
LoveBug
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40 posted 07-31-2004 07:34 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

"Someone who measures people by their pocketbook is indeed... poor"

Geez, don't get all bent out of shape. It's nice how you're throwing personal insults at me. And you think I'M immature.. and it's not the fact that she's rich that peeves me, it's the fact that she WANTS everyone to look up to her and admire her for fighting some uphill battle. Marrying into money isn't exactly a big uphill battle. She was at her HUSBAND'S convention and all she could talk about was herself. Thats not something I want to admire, and thats not something I want in a First Lady.

I wasn't calling anyone a liberal, but I just wanted to know what the liberals who visit this thread think.

And I never said that Bush wasn't rich, but he doesn't pretend like he isn't. (I believe I've said that already anyway) I also said that most presidents were rich, but Kerry/Edwards pretend to be something they aren't, and THATS why they piss me off.

If anti-isolationism is a liberal principle, how come all of the liberals are wanting to 'mind our own business' and 'get out of Iraq'?



Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee
Local Rebel
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41 posted 07-31-2004 09:22 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

and it's not the fact that she's rich that peeves me, it's the fact that she WANTS everyone to look up to her and admire her for fighting some uphill battle.



Spin at best Erica... here's what you said;

quote:

Heinz Kerry--- What a struggle she had?? Come on.. she married a billionare who died and left her with everything. SOO HARD, what a struggle, eh?



So, if you're rich, losing your husband and father of your children isn't a struggle.  And she certainly isn't worthy of your sympathy or empathy.  It is the limits of your partisanship that are going personal.  Dole and Mitchell are friends Erica.  Reagan and O'Neil were friends.  Kerry and McCain.  Nixon and Mgovern. The list is endless.  

Should some Democrat say Nancy isn't worthy of our sympathy because she married rich?  And powerful?

quote:

Marrying into money isn't exactly a big uphill battle. She was at her HUSBAND'S convention and all she could talk about was herself. Thats not something I want to admire, and thats not something I want in a First Lady.



The purpose of her speech (which was a really fine one and the first time I've heard a potential first-lady speak without hearing 'Don't cry for me Argentina' playing in my head in a really long time -- which is my theme song for HRC btw) was to introduce HER to the public.  So that we can know who she is -- the person that comes as a part of the deal.  Her 'struggle' was growing up in a part of the world where freedom wasn't known.  That is something you apparently have no appreciation for.  And if that's your opinion that's fine.

But, how dare you?  How dare you belie her grief and loss?

One day you will discover something you would give up a billion dollars to have.

And liberals are not saying we should 'mind our own business and get out of Iraq' -- what they are saying is that war wasn't necessary or the correct action to take.... there is a huge difference.
iliana
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42 posted 07-31-2004 09:39 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Fox News constantly quotes the Washington Times.  Recently, I read that it was owned by Rev. Sun Myung Moon of the Unification Church.  I just wondered if anyone has done research on him.  I found out a lot; including he was recently crowned the messiah and king of the world -- did ya'all know that???? And did you know it took place in the presence of some of our high ranking politicians on Capitol Hill in a government office building?! There is so much we don't know.  The internet can reveal a lot but there's spin on it, too.  I would say....believe it when you see it; if you hear it; you can probably believe it about 50% of the time; if you read it, about 50% of the time.  Maybe those percentages should be less?  Anyway, do your homework, Lovebug; you'll enjoy doing it....just search out his name and see what you find.  

LoveBug, here one link for you.  http://www.consortiumnews.com/2001/010301a.html and http://gadflyer.com/articles/?ArticleID=131  or http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61932-2004Jun22.html  -- this is from an independent publication for excellence in journalism



[This message has been edited by iliana (07-31-2004 11:46 PM).]

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43 posted 07-31-2004 10:17 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

Lots of people lose their loved ones. Most of them don't get anything out of it except for memories. My aunt, for example, is a widow, and she didn't get attention, money, or marry again into a position of power (again!). It's not that I don't have sympathy for widows, MOST widows have to struggle without any help. As I said, she's trying to make herself out to be something that she isn't.. just like her husband and just like her husband's running mate.  

And actually, I did think of Eva Peron when I heard her speech. I think she wants power more than her husband does.

Don't pretend like I don't know what it's like to lose someone. How dare YOU. You don't know anything about me. I'm going to learn a lesson soon? Is that a threat?

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee
iliana
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since 12-05-2003
Posts 13488
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44 posted 07-31-2004 10:32 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Geeeeeeez.....I sure didn't mean to start a thread where people get offended.  

Local Rebel said:
____________________
But, how dare you?  How dare you belie her grief and loss?

One day you will discover something you would give up a billion dollars to have.
_____________________

LoveBug said:
_____________________
Don't pretend like I don't know what it's like to lose someone. How dare YOU. You don't know anything about me. I'm going to learn a lesson soon? Is that a threat?
______________________

LoveBug, I think there's been a misunderstanding.  I did not read Reb's comment as a threat, just a reality of life that perhaps this billionaire cares enough about this nation she is willing to spend a billion on its ideals or something like that (Reb, forgive me if I've paraphrased badly).  Nor do I really think he meant to insult you.  I have to agree with him about belieing anyone's grief.  You said it best....we don't know you....we don't know anything about you. Everyone suffers grief and loss and I suspect you have had your share, too.  So, how can we belie Mrs. Kerry's grief...how can you really say you know who she is...have you met her?  Have you been involved in any of her charities?  Well, no, I haven't either, but I am not going to prejudge her based on what I HEAR. Please don't be offended.  

It is easy to get caught up in the heat of political or religious discussions.  We are all entitled to our opinions, but please, everybody, let's not bicker here.  We are all friends here.


Aenimal
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45 posted 07-31-2004 11:19 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

iliana well said.

As for this:

quote:
Recently, I read that it was owned by Rev. Sun Myung Moon of the Unification Church.


Is that really true? Quite a disturbing thought. Ironically, I just read that Bush recently paid a visit to said Rev. this month.
iliana
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46 posted 07-31-2004 11:22 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Ralph, read the links I provided.  If you do a search on the net, you'll find a ton of info.  I believe it is true from what I've read.  Have found fairly credible sources.  Yes...it's frightening!
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47 posted 07-31-2004 11:27 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

I never said she didn't feel grief, I'm just saying that she's just one of many, and just because she lost someone doesn't mean that she's had to struggle so much more than anyone else. We've all lost people. I never meant to imply that I didn't feel for her because she lost someone, I was just saying that I don't feel that she has had things so horribly bad off in her life, and the fact that she's trying to portray something other than that just pisses me off, thats all.

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee
iliana
Member Patricius
since 12-05-2003
Posts 13488
USA


48 posted 07-31-2004 11:34 PM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Personally, I would deplore being in any First Lady's shoes, wouldn't you?  No privacy.....
Aenimal
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49 posted 07-31-2004 11:37 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

I agree Iliana the privacy and because I have very large feet, more suitable to Airwalks then to pumps.


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