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Passions in Poetry

In the Name of Freedom? For This Diamond & Goldenrose and

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LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


0 posted 05-11-2004 09:14 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

To This Diamond & Golden Rose

What your about to read, is not directed at any one particular person...just thoughts which Golden Rose sparked in my mind this morning and felt a desire to express.

Thank you "Golden Rose" for bringing such courageous men to our attention.What you’re doing is a good thing and praises the men who sacrificed their lives so bravely for the freedom of other human beings.Commendable and caring.

"This Diamond"...this is my perspective on your question adding much more of my thoughts and reservations.

Back then, I believe people were a little different.…it wasn’t about the almighty dollar bill and what sells, then, there was more concentration on human beings, concern for neighbors, friends and relatives and respect for their privacy, as well.

Courtesy then, seemed to be a real working word.Morals and self respect was a part of our culture, as was sharing and considerations for others…decisions were made then, for the good of the people, not the good of their pocket books, I believe?

Now, it’s such a mixed up crazy world…

As I struggle with wars and their purpose and remember all I’ve read about them, they’ve existed since the beginning of time and part of each generation.Wars are ugly monsters.Heinous things happen, which would not happen under normal circumstances.But, war is not a “normal circumstance”.They say wars makes men out of boys…I disagree.How can any young man in their late teens, early twenty’s be prepared for what they are about to encounter, see and live?

We must remember and take a step back for a moment.When we were young, we didn’t always make the best decisions with “consequences for our actions in mind”.Lest I sound contradictive,I do believe then, we possessed a little more fear of what would befall us, (out of respect for our parents) more so, then our children today.But I do remember making some very unwise decisions then, as well. We’ve somehow lost the wisdom of cause and effect in our community here in the US, and forgetting about the consequences which will befall others due to our actions and decisions.

I find the mellowing years of my life have made me, shall we say, less tolerant *S*….war my friends is an ugly thing…it makes our soldiers endure and see such things that we could never begin to imagine, and people do indeed suffer and die.

War changes men, the anger, hostility and wanton to get even builds.What great responsibility we place onthe younger members of our society, while fat politicians sit back and expect? I cannot imagine what I would feel & do if in their shoes, at 22 years old, knowing that the future of my country might well fall if I failed, not to mention the peer pressure of my fellow soldiers and those in charge of battle.I would be completely at their mercy and might very well feel compelled to follow the group, even if against every fiber of my belief.

None of us bear in mind what they must be experiencing over there.Whose command they are under?They are out of our safe havens away from the warm arms of family, friends & for the first time in their lives, being introduced to areal world, so to speak, a not so good world.They are forced to befriend their fellow soldiers as brothers and we’d better hope the others have some moral upbringing, who else do they have, not to mention…go along with the crowd, and if they don’t I’d hate to think of the consequences they’d be forced to face.Now, lest we consider, they’ve been trained to kill in order to survive.

I’m not condoning what is presently going on, by any means…what I’m saying is, war is an ugly heinous event which scars, abuses, mames and murders.There are casualties in every degree.War thinks not about anything but survival…all else becomes secondary and must.

Never-the-less, we do indeed need a president and a people who will fight terrorism, but I struggle with the real reasons why we are over there.You know, it was so soon after 9-11 and we were all shocked and in disbelief.We wanted revenge and were blood thirsty for someone to pay for what occurred; we wanted an eye for an eye, didn’t we?

You cannot take a culture that has been conditioned for thousands of years and expect them to think like we do?No two people ever think alike and so be it with other countries.We have the highest divorce rate today, and yet, we expect, literally expect other countries to think like we do?????

Yes, I am very happy we tore down Hussein’s regime of hate crimes and torture, but one thing bothers me and stays with me.How can you possibly straighten out another person’s home…when your own home is a bloody mess?(The USA)

I’m happy we went over there and freed innocent woman, men and children, but we will never be able to change their culture and must wonder who will be next to step into Hussein’s position?There will be another, and another, you know.

So what do you do?Blow the entire country to smithereens, simply b/c we do not think and feel as them?
And please don’t misunderstand, I’m not making light of terrorisum.But,what is the answer…..how do you prevent other countries from making bombs that kill?Especially when we, and other countries, sold weapons to them that they are using today, black market?

What are the answers when all decisions are made from the lust of money and what’s in it for me? Oh my, where does a new beginning start.You’ve got so many people in this country who are walking zombies, so unaware of what’s really going on, pretending that we’re living in a moral and good world and every other country is the bully, heck, not us, how could we be?

Right now we are so vulnerable to viruses and there has been no major research…let alone any other disease, hasn’t anyone asked themselves why?

We have thousands of people in this country illegally, with no sense of duty to community, yet will take anything free that is given them with no humble abode.Mind you, I’m not saying everyone is a bad people.There is good and bad in every country.But…when you allow yourself to be a victim, people will take advantage, it’s human nature.

Our jails have become safe havens for prisoners to go to get out of cold weather, to retain a college degree? They house tiled floors and work out rooms, computers and the like.They should be feared places where no man would want to go!

We slap people on the hands for murders and say, take away the guns that will stop crime.I think not!

Most law suits in court today should be thrown out of court…but, anything for a quick buck, right?

There is a great lack of emphasis on education, not to mention, if we entered another country and wanted to live there, we would be expected to not only respect their rulesbut their language, as well????No other country on the face of this earth is as lenient as we are.

We have become intolerant to the ideas of others and way too liberal with our thinking.We look to blame instead of owning up to the fact that yes, I did it, I was wrong, yes I lied. Which opens another can of worms on the word honesty, self-respect and fidelity to self?

There are very insecure people/leaders in positions today, who are literally afraid to hire someone who knows more then they do, so they hire someone who knows less, which filters down within the system and right to the top.Incompetence and unethical behavior, lack of education, values and morals.If you treat your employees like thieves they will rob you blind!

We laugh at things we should deem immoral and corrupt…unacceptable behavior!

Our school systems are tearing down the possibilities for American Citizens & the culture we represent.

It isn’t about the best man for the job anymore, it’s who you are, and what you lack, which awards any position today.

This is the year 2004 and do you realize how many people are in this country who cannot speak English, let alone read or write??????Speech is an insult to society, the slang and slurs which cannot be understood????

Oh my, I could go on and on….I suppose what I’m trying to say is this…and once again I reiterates.
How can we fix things in other countries, when we cannot fix things in our own?You can’t!You will have irresponsible leaders, bad decision making and a lack of education, both morals and tactical.Oh my, all I can think of is, poor poor Mr. Colin Powell.That man must be loosing his hair.

Sorry, had to articulate my feelings….hope that no one was offended…but…it’s time we stand up and be counted.Demand the people we are paying to run this country b/c we’re way to lazy to get involved and say, how can I make a difference.Believe me, they’re living in the lap of luxury, pocketing all our money, and doing way too little for the good of man and society in the name of “In God We Trust”.They tackle little idiot issues to keep us thinking they’re doing their jobs…the media blows everything way outa proportion b/c they need to fill they’re time space and there doesn’t happen to be any heart stopping news today????We watch way too much TV?????

We’re way to fat, our children are obese….physically and metaphorically!Why?Did our children today, ever hear of kick the tin can?

Cell phone annoy me to no end, and it’s so confounded rude to put someone on hold to receive another call.
I find it rude to go grocery shopping and being forced to walk aside of a woman who is talking her life over on the phone right next to me???There is nothing personal or sacred anymore?

And when it comes to Sexual behavior…well, in my opinion, we should be ashamed!

Now, take these kind of mentality, and give it a gun and tell it to go out and kill your enemy.
In my book, that is a receipt for disaster?Whose fault is it really?It starts right there with me and you right at the beginning and filters on through.What ever decision you make, what action you implement, is going to have an effect…and it doesn’t take very long.

I believe these are all things we really need to think about…we really need to wake up…because if we don’t, we are going to be in for a rude awakening very soon.Not to mention…what is it going to be like for the next generation?It’s not hopeless, but it certainly does need some adjusting. Laws do not always seem fair, but they are there for a good reason, and today, laws don’t mean a thing regarding politicians, attorneys, stars or anyone with any powerful assets!Laws do not pertain to the rich and famous!How insulting!

Now, how in the world did the price of homes skyrocket as they did, and where is all that money coming from to buy those homes….and why are people buying them, paying that kind of price for them.Oh, yes, my friend, there is and will be a price for a home that costly.You know who will suffer?The children, being raised latch key, feeling as if they have no parents.Is it worth keeping up with the Joneses?

I’m going to end this essay with one question…I was very moved with Golden Rose’s tribute to all the men who have lost their lives fighting for the very things we lack in this country today.I cannot help but ask myself…if they were here now, if God sent them down to see what we’ve become…do you think they would deem their loss a cause and effect worthwhile.I don’t know about you, but I’m very embarrassed, disgusted and ashamed.There you have it Universal Studios/Walt Disney, why not make that a serious movie in the name of entertainment? So the world who they really are?And please forgive, not trying to be sarcastic or angry, but tell the truth and stand up for what I believe in.

Thank you kindly for taking the time to read and to Golden Rose and This Diamond for the insight, perspective and courage to write this.



JL
Member Ascendant
since 04-01-2004
Posts 5938
Texas, USA


1 posted 05-11-2004 12:18 PM       View Profile for JL   Email JL   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JL

Lee J:
Very well expressed.  I agree, we are not hopeless, but some in the media mainstream and some of the leaders in our government are.  God bless you Lee J for being so open and honest about your thoughts and feelings.

JL


She said: ”You look cute in the dark.”

Mistletoe Angel
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2 posted 05-12-2004 11:55 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



God Bless You, all of you! I respect all of you for sharing your convictions, as war is the most ugliest thing in our world, and the thing in which makes monsters out of us all.

I'd also like to add, strongly, from the bottom of my heart, that peace does NOT go two ways. Eiher you believe in peace or you believe in war. If you support a war, you do not believe in the trueness of peace, simple as that. Therefore, no matter if you supported war on Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, whatever, you all have yet to know the true essence of peace. Peace is earned through unconditional love, not the bayonet. It is heard through the wind, NOT the bomb. It is tasted through the honey, NOT the oil. And peace should come to us, NOT us coming to it.

I say, when our politicians start acting more like soldiers, then we will be on Square Two. Unfortunately we have a president, an administration, etc. living in constant fear and blind rage and wearing veils of uncertainty who keep attempting to fight the same old battles that we've lost time and time again in history, and when their ignorance is finally lifted, perhaps peace may finally find a way to seep in.

I pray with you three and may God Bless Us all and may peace be with us all!

Love,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
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3 posted 05-13-2004 07:41 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Hello JL and Noah, thank you for responding.  Noah, the convictions you relayed in your comment are true...yes, wars are ugly things...but, think for one moment if you will, about all the jews who were absolutely tortured, experiemented on...not to mention, stripped stark naked in front of each other.  What do you think, is the worst way to humiliate a person and rob them of all their confidence and fight.  By ordering them to take their cloths off.

Noah...I cannot help but wonder, why were all those thousands of Jews so passive, why didn't they fight for their lives.  God gave us lives to live...which to me is a sacred and most absolute significance.  If we wouldn't have fought that war, how many more would have suffered.  

I feel the same way about the Afro American Slaves, who were beaten, raped, and slaughtered.  In that war, I believe we lost 1100 men each and every day.  If we wouldn't have won that war, what might have happened.  

We are human beings, a community, and each and every country in this entire world is our neighbors.  I was raised to believe that you didn't allow your neighbor to suffer, you helped and gave in anyway you could.  
If someone needed surgery, you helped the other spouse with their children, neighbors pitched in and made meals for the family, bought them grocerys and yes, even helped pay their morgage/or rent.  If a home burned, you helped that family raise that home and barn again.  People and business owners came for miles around to do so.  And so should it be by our neighbors in every other country.

A general in Washington said...we as Americans would like to sit back and believe we are moral, fair and honest human beings.  We look to everyone else as the bullies.  Not so...we in fact are hated by every nation.  Its ok to lend a hand to people, but it's not ok to expect them to believe as we do.  You cannot take a culture who has been conditioned for thousands of years and tell them that they're beliefs are wrong.  

But...in the same, if people are being slaughtered, mistreated, abused, or are starving...it's ok to lend a hand to help unconditionally, even if that means fighting/war against those who are violating moral substance.  

Noah, if the US were under seige...and you were in a prision camp right in the town you now live in...and those soldiers were mistreating you, beating you, raping you, starving you, burning you alive...wouldn't you hope that someone, anyone from another country would stand up and fight to save you? To give you back your freedom?  I certainly would.

Noah, yes, War is wrong if we're over there for any other reason then to free those men woman and children who were being slaugthered and abused.  But to sit back and turn our heads and do nothing is wrong as well.  

An eye for an eye, does not work, it simply fuels the fire and breeds more hate, crime and murder of innocent people.  But...in the same Noah...we do need to fight terrorism, by God, we do.  Because if we don't send a message that this is unacceptable behavior...we will soon have all those people living right here under our noses taking control of our land.  

Noah, I don't have all the answers surely, but one thing I do know...I will stand by any human being who is being mistreated and fight to my death if need be, b/c they are a child of God and He wouldn't want me to turn my head.  If God gave someone life...then they deserve to be free to make choices just like ourselves. They have a right to expect respect and to be deemed a most significant part of our society.  And our society doesn't stop on the boarders of the US.  

Now as far as any American who inflicts harm on another, well, I don't care about their background, how they were raised, what kind of stress they are under...if we allow anything like that to continue, trying to find physiological excuses for such heinous behavior...well, simply this, then we've lost respect and regard for not only ourselves, but for human beings.  Blaming the system is not a cure, blaming the background of a criminal is not going to dismiss the fact that a crime was indeed committed.  And if you don't make the guilty parties pay...then it will indeed filter right into society.  A law is a law, and respect for mankind should be something we hold onto and fight for.  Terrorism is spreading like a disease....even within our own country...meaning our laws and our liberal way of thinking.  If a child picks up a gun and shoots another child..it must be the gun, or his upbringing.  Well, I was raised to believe, by my parents, that if I disrespected the law or another person, teacher, then I had to suffer the consequences. Not so in today's world...parents no longer raise their children...and defend misbehavior to the hilt. And this has filtered down through our entire way of thinking...blame someone else, or the system, or society...as no one person today, is held accountable for their actions.  Just sit back and take a long look at what is going on right now...and listen for all the excuses that everyone offers for crimes against other human beings.  

We are, headed for disaster, I fear, as people have lost self respect, the ability to think with common sense, and bend the laws to their behalf.  If your a movie star, your exempt from crime, even murder. Noah, this is wrong and unacceptable...and this is filtering into the very fibers of our being.  What those soldiers did and eveyone who knew about it, to those Iraqi prisoners was unacceptable and all those who committed the crimes should be held accountable.  

Noah, wars are nasty and hateful things...but, by God, if someone is abusing a brother of mine, I don't care if your American, I'm going to stand up for that until the day I die...and I don't care, what religion you believe in...what color your skin...your my brother, and I expect the same rights for you, as I do for myself...and if there are people who are being abused in other countries...slaughtered, starved, raped or mistreated....yes, we should come to their aid...get the job done and then leave them to their freedom.  

My only question about this war is....are we over there for the right reasons?  As even though I voted for our president, I cannot help but question this administration and their values and commitment to doing their job for the better of the people.  But, that is another subject, not far from what I have touched base on here.  

It is my belief, that life is a sacred commonity, and when someone violates that unique and speical gift, they must be held accountable.  

I hope I have not insulted anyone here by expressing my opinion...If I have I apologize...I will not give up on the fact that there is still hope for our country...for the world...laws are laws, not always fair but there for a reason...and they must be upheld no matter who you are...God help Mr. Colin Powell presently, I feel so bad for him and everyone else that this country, the media, and its people (us) who sit back and point fingers...hoping it will all somehow magically clean itself up by itself.  It won't.  And until people start sticking together, for the sake of morals and respect...instead of the almight dollar?  

Thank you for reading and allowing me my belief and I welcome anyone to offer anything more that I may not know, and could learn from in dicussion.

Thank goodness and God for forums like these.  
    

ThisDiamond
Member Rara Avis
since 02-22-2002
Posts 9456
Michigan, USA


4 posted 05-13-2004 09:44 AM       View Profile for ThisDiamond   Email ThisDiamond   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit ThisDiamond's Home Page   View IP for ThisDiamond

LeeJ
You Rock!

If we have been given the gift to draw upon the human heart...then the honor of painting a new world is ours to share.

Write ON!  

Thank you for your thoughts, gentleness and common sense.  :-)
I will be joining you, and Golden Rose, and so many of our talented poets to give this message.  

Hugs,
TD
Goldenrose
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since 05-30-2003
Posts 3637


5 posted 05-13-2004 10:29 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

[Post Edited Opinions are welcome to be discussed UNTIL they become intentionally inflammatory. People who don't know how to do that should learn. - Ron ]

[This message has been edited by Ron (05-13-2004 03:18 PM).]

Goldenrose
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since 05-30-2003
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6 posted 05-14-2004 06:24 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

I did not mean it to be internationally inflammatory ..i was merely quoting from a fellow Americans best selling book Micael Moore....who has said the same thing for years... so it is nothing new it is now common knowledge....

If i offended anybody then i appologise...let me assure you it certainly wasnt intended....my ethic is peace, love and kindness.....not hurting peoples feelings...

Goldenrose.


''There is no need for temples, no need for complicated Philosophies.
My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness''-  Dalai Lama
RSWells
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since 06-17-2001
Posts 2607


7 posted 05-14-2004 05:56 PM       View Profile for RSWells   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for RSWells

LeeJ,
I appreciate your concerns and am glad more people are being worn down by the fact that there is no end in sight to the philosophy that we should rule the world our way with only selfish regard for the future.

However I dare go no further. For one thing this is a very emotional topic and hard feelings are bound to result. In addition the website is a microcosm of our great country in that a handful of very right leaning individuals are influential.

Just poetry reading, commenting and perhaps posting for me here henceforth. I'd thought poetry and peace were nearly synonymous.
Mistletoe Angel
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8 posted 05-16-2004 06:09 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Lee, with all due respect, I sympathize with those who cry from their prisons, praying if they may ever find freedom, if someone will come to save them.

There indeed have been many heinous acts in history. Genocides, pestilence, obstruction of justice, terrorism, etc. All things that I denounce greatly. I denounced 9/11, as it saddens me to think of those who wish to afflict harm on the innocent. I denounced the war on Iraq, as it is a mirror reflection of 9/11 in many of their points of view, where, though the world may be safer without Saddam Hussein, thousands were killed in the process.

World War II I hardly even consider a war. Blind rage enshrouded those who afflicted harm on the Jews; just raw hatred and anger. World War II was all about Social Darwinism; the menacing belief that one type of people must govern all, and genocide must be performed to uphold the moral standard. It was just a heinous conquest and hardly a war. And fortunately it was thwarted.

It was not war that freed the slaves, it was the afterglow of reconcilation that did so. The realization that we fight, but for what? War would have kept the border lines visible forever.

The philosophy you share here is exactly that in which I believe. If a home is burned, do you go find the culprit, tie that guilty conscience up and perform torture? No, you just turn the other cheek and rebuild with those that lend a helping hand. Our nation is built on that Christian doctrine of "forgiving and forgetting" and unfortunately many have turned away from that dogma.

To that respect, action is indeed an option to protecting morals, but I do not believe in it. What many fail to understand is "terrorism" cannot be stopped until the thought of it is clear from all our minds. Terrorism develops from thoughts of hatred, anger, deceit, the animal instincts that create waves of rigid behavior. No matter what war you fight, someone will always feel disappointed, and when you're terrorized by disappointment, the war is never won. Let's not forget terrorists are people too. They too are terrorized by something, even if hatred governs their existence, and it should be our responsibility to stop, listen, and let them open up exactly what troubles them and what they really need. They battle with their emotions, and terrorists are those who lose that battle. It doesn't mean they have to war; love can thwart it.

Fighting terrorism, to me, is like smashing a mirror. It'll shatter, but it doesn't mean the reflection is gone, it still reflects in all the speckles of glass. Soon enough you realize you were better off leaving the mirror alone. It just so happens when you're fighting terrorism, you're terrorizing somone else in the process.

Look at where the war on Iraq has brought us. Now politicians are warring against each other, fear and doubts are filling Americans minds on both presidental candidaes and the future of our country, Iraqis polled say though the world is better without Saddam, conditions are worse since the U.S came in. We accomplished one mission, but what worth did that have? Too often now many think only of the short-term scenarios, never the long-term scenarios. War is NEVER beneficial in long-term scenarios. Now we're seeing the country divided moe than ever in how they should be governed, as well as here.

No one deserves to or should be abused or raped or humiliated like those Iraqi prisoners have, and I too would be desperate in being rescued. I certainly wouldn't want my hero to have to kill in order to save me. I'd rather be saved by a free-spirited martyr than a fool who keeps true to his orders.

There are plenty of ways we can rescue and protect our brothers and sisers in spirit worldwide without resorting to war. Our politicians always choose the cowardly way, which history shows never gives total satisfaction. Acts of unconditional love, which could be used through diplomacy, spies and secret units who can capture those who only wish to afflict harm on others and keep others from being put in harms way of bombs and missiles, spending our military money on acts of charitable cause, and most importantly, reversing the psychology that someone is always to blame and the price must be paid, which the media continues to churn and encourage the children. I guarantee if the media would actually ecourage the philosophy of love without prejudice, we wouldn't be in this rut we are now.

You say so yourself: "Blaming the system is not a cure, blaming the background of a criminal is not going to dismiss the fact that a crime was indeed committed.". I breathe this mentality, and that is exactly how wars are created, from blame and prejudice. I believe everything is seeping through the wrong filter; Michael Jackson SHOULD be in jail, Saddam Hussein SHOULD be locked away from society, etc.

In war, nothing is ethical. Does anyone REALLY think about moral upbringing, life as a sacred commonity, respect, etc. in times of war? In war, nobody is secure. All people care about in war is getting the job done if it's the last thing they do; they forget all the ethics about it. War is just a chrome-plated state of mind that cuts off the circulation of blood in all the rest of you, and once you finally free yourself from it, everything is unnerving.

I guarantee a majority of troops down there are weary and would studder in answering the question, "What are we fighting for?". I guarantee a majority of troops down there just want to get the job done and fly back home to their families and loved ones and they aren't interested in thinking about the morals of this struggle.

The fact is, morals are simply dismissed in our society, and replaced by the pathetic sheet paper illusion of it; patriotism. Patriotism is what deceived many into supporting the war in the first place, and what is using all its foolish arrogance it has left in trying to keep the war justified. Patriotism is the disease of existence, which would make any baby laugh in disbelief of the stupidity it generates that can turn the most learned man into the jester. When patrioism is finally defeated and morals prosper again, war may never be discussed again.

I am a believer in peace and I believe that everyone in this world are brothers and sisters in spirit to us, as we are all children of God, and I believe when a sister cries or a brother is sad, we must reach out to them with open arms...nothing more. Just naked, open arms.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton




"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20
Ringo
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since 02-20-2003
Posts 3696
Saluting with misty eyes


9 posted 05-16-2004 12:52 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

As everyone on here should already know,I give everyone the right to their thoughts and opinion.
Michael Moore, however, just might start my short list of those who aren't.

Michael Moore is no more interested in getting to the truth, or reporting it factually, and without bias than 99.9% of the people in this world. He intentionally makes baised movies, and writes biased books for the sole purpose of making a few dollars. He is intentionally inflammatory just so that he can keep his name at the top of the page.

Taking anything he writes, or seeing any movie he makes and accepting it as the factual view of things is being slightly naive. Just as accepting ANYONE'S opinion without looking at all sides (there's always more than both) and deciding for yourself. Michael Moore has no interest in doing that.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again...
http://www.cmlb.net/ringo

Ron
Administrator
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since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
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10 posted 05-16-2004 01:31 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
World War II I hardly even consider a war. Blind rage enshrouded those who afflicted harm on the Jews; just raw hatred and anger. World War II was all about Social Darwinism; the menacing belief that one type of people must govern all, and genocide must be performed to uphold the moral standard. It was just a heinous conquest and hardly a war. And fortunately it was thwarted.


I used to think you were simply naïve and all too innocent, Noah. When I see rationalizations like this, however, I begin to realize you're really not all that different from everyone else.

You don't get to change the language, Noah, to help yourself feel more comfortable with black and white absolutes. History doesn't call it WCII, after all. The effort to forestall Nazi domination was a war, one of the most bloody and ruthlessly fought wars in all of history. There are many, many differences between that war and Iraq, but the violence remains the same. So, too, must the word.

Noah, if you grant that even one war was justified and necessary, you can no longer argue that war is evil. And that's cool, I think, because then you can drop the rhetoric and start honestly exploring the reasons a specific act is either warranted or unwarranted. Just like the rest of us.


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11 posted 05-16-2004 02:54 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

What is that supposed to mean, Ron?

Did you see me as some kind of alien all this time, who is only capable of thinking of innocent things? Did you see me as some kind of evolution? Did you expect too much of me?

It frankly breaks my heart if you really think that way. Just like politics, I hate rationale, yet with this intuitive quagmire ongoing here, I find it is my reluctant obligation to study the logics behind these problems so I know how I may help in breaking the mentality with the child's eye.

Who can say who is naive or not? Who can say which historian who writes history is the most correct? I happen to believe much of history has been written by thieves, but I'm not going to press any charges. And though I have my own hunch on certain things, it doesn't mean I'm attempting to re-write the whole language. I'm just writing another account is all. A different account using the same languae.  

Also, I have to get this by. Did I ever say war, specifically, was evil? No, I did not. All I said was I believe war never solves anything, and is unethical. Indeed I respect how some greedy minds just want to dominate anothers territory or lifestyle, thus they're forced to defnd themselves. There's nothing evil about that. But I can say not everyone is certainly going to be satisfied after the struggle. Someone will still be complaining, somene will still feel rejected. And that's exactly what creates a spinoff of a skirmish.

No, I too, a human, and I wish to be dignified as that. I am not ashamed to admit that, and that doesn't mean I am just like everyone else. All I wish is to have just a little common sense evn if it's an outdated term, so I have the ability to sympathize with others. And if I am no different in every way, help me Lord.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20
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12 posted 05-16-2004 03:14 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I do happen to agree with you a bit here, Ringo.

I am not going to start a list of those who should't have the right to their thoughts and opinions, but, just like Anne Coulter, Clarke, etc. I do think Michael Moore, the two I've mentioned and many other writers like this have a lack of sensitivity to the other opinion.

Perhaps Michael Moore is indeed fervently interested in finding the truth, perhaps its even his lifetime commitment. I do not disagree with him entirely, as some of his liberal views I share. But when you think radically, few ever really take you seriously. It's dangerous territory to step in. You can lose your credibility just like that.

I do think Michael Moore is radically on the left as Anne Coulter is radically on the right. And yes, I do think they're both interested in creating a "shock value" and purosely make inflammatory remarks to stay on top, and they realize money is the only thing that'll keep them up there. So the conduit is all ran from fame and wealth.

I relate better to Al Franken than I do Michael Moore personally, and even then I'm no going to leave "Lies And The Lying Liars Who Tell Them" the only dog-earred selection.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

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13 posted 05-16-2004 06:09 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
All I said was I believe war never solves anything, and is unethical.

Yet you seem to agree, Noah, that WWII solved the immediate problem of Hitler? Would it have been more ethical to do nothing?

If war is necessary, as most believe it sometimes is, it's going to be very difficult to mount an effective argument that war is wrong simply because people get hurt. In too many cases throughout history, Hitler being one of them, refusing to fight would result in greater harm to far more people than would the war. Sometimes, war isn't the problem, but rather is the only available solution to the underlying problem of tyranny.

One shouldn't condemn the doctor for cutting out a cancerous tumor. Blame the tumor for your pain, not the operation that possibly saved your life. Neither surgery nor war is something to actively seek. But they shouldn't always be avoided at any cost, either.
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14 posted 05-16-2004 07:04 PM       View Profile for ThisDiamond   Email ThisDiamond   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit ThisDiamond's Home Page   View IP for ThisDiamond

I have been reading here, and quite impressed with the sharing...
I wonder sometimes how it would feel to be a German citizen in WWII, or a prisoner...
I think about Iraq and the resident people there...and I think back to the horror of 9/11 and...

I hate the horror of war, and I realize that innocent are harmed with the guilty...and I read the paper today and know of the mistreatment...and know that the information sought would save thousands of lives.

The first contact I had regarding this theme was from Golden Rose to honor those who were brave, and remember with honor those that fought and died.  I was a child during Vietnam...and had my three uncles returned to me.

In my heart, I cannot disagree with any point made, or any opinion offered, they are all deserving of their point...
But you know, every soldier and every citizen goes to war for their belief...it is brave, it is costly and I can only hope that the precious freedoms that we all enjoy will always prevail.  

I am going to start an add on poem...wishes dropped into loving arms for the brave, and the innocent, and the harmed and the free.
If all those wishes were gathered up by poets, they should represent an honorable write.

Hugs,
TD
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15 posted 05-17-2004 04:06 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I do think it would be agreed in a landslide that the world is better without Adolf Hitler.

What I also believe, however, is World War I inspired World War II. The Germans were most penalized in its aftermath, and were eyed like a hawk and seen as the black sheep of the world. They were limited in their options and inevitably there comes resentment to conditions like that. Unanimously they were fed up with the sanctioning and punishment. All they needed was a determining voice to console them, and, unfortunately, it happened to be his.

Htler was never even "loved" among his followers. He lost elections multiple times by comfortable margins (in 1932 I think it was) and though his party gradually gained power, he never had a majority. In light of that, Hitler could have easily been stopped all along. Reluctance created this tragedy.

No, I think the reluctance to get to the root of the problem right away creates these rippling effects, that can stimulate conflict. War really is never necessary; Hitler could have easily never made it, it was just that simple twist of fate that benefitted him. Hussein could have easily been captured after the Kuwait incident. It's this short-sighted social science that is letting these things blow out of proportion. War really is never necessary; but many wait until an issue becomes an issue to make up an excuse and say "I beg to differ, we have no choice"

Doing nothing is not a choice. I do agree that is also dangerous, perhaps just as much as warring. But I also believe the problem can easily be resolved before it escalates. It can be as simple as pulling the root of a weed out of the soil. And in light of that, waiting until the flowerbed is a jungle of weeds is not an option either. That's exactly what happened in World War II, and that's what's happening in Iraq.

The difference between a surgery and a war is that in a surgery, you are in control. You can make that bold walk into the hospital, accept the surgery, and deal with the problem. You are in total control and responsibility of yourself. In war, there is no control. Every man goes his own way, fighting for his own purpose, but you're not in control of the grand scheme of things. You are absorbed in it. And not being in war, I cannot begin to imagine how it must feel, but there I know it's evident no one can fully describe the effects. In surgery, one can understand the gist of it; of the risks, the precautions, the requirements.

Indeed, again, I repeat, the world is a better place without Hitler. But this particular war could have easily been prevented. Even if Hitler never made it and another one of his colleagues followed through, those approximately 56% who never lent their support their way had the chance to prevent this. They just didn't follow through together.

War is an option to many, but it certainly isn't necessary. One thing leads to another, and that's what World War I did to inspire World War II. No war is good, and I personally claim no war is right. Please know I understand I, myself, didn't grow up during WWII or Vietnam, but seriously, we should all easily agree just as much as the world is safer without Hitler or Hussein that no war is "good".

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20
Goldenrose
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16 posted 05-17-2004 06:32 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

Maybe the real reason Americans do not like Michael Moore is because he holds up a mirror to American citizens..and they dont like what they see...after all his record stands up for all to see..he does not do the things for money or to keep on top but out of a failure for Amreicans to see what's in front of them....he is not to the left either..he attacks demorcrats equally as republicans....he didnt vote for either of them...

His books are best sellers...in America...so a lot of people in America must be reading them...his Film ''Bowling For Columbine'' won the Oscar....highlighting America's paranoia with ''protecting'' themselves with guns and his new film ''Farenheit911'' has been nominated at the Cannes film festival....so why is Michael Moore so hated?....Is it because he gets to the truth and poeple just cannot handle the truth?

The new film highlights Bush's connections to Osama Bin Laden's family and how he evacuated them from America directly after the 911 attacks..i would say that was pretty impressive journalism...one that the American people would be interested to know.
He is the only one bold enough to say that Bush ''stole'' the presidency..how else do you explain how a country of over 300 million people with 200 million eligible voters....let a man into the whitehouse who only got a quater of the votes....!!!!!!

But i am just a stupid english man....after all my countries leader actually follows this ''deserter''....so we are worse than the Americans....

But peace to everyone...kindness to the world is what i want to see not wars or even politics...let me stick to writing poetry...you can argue the merits of this but nothing will change..we dont have the power to do that...

Have a great week ...and happy summer...

Goldenrose.

''There is no need for temples, no need for complicated Philosophies.
My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness''-  Dalai Lama

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17 posted 05-18-2004 03:29 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Goldenrose, I agree that Michael Moore does indeed make good points, and he is deeply committed to his job. The point I was making was that Michael Moore is biased, like Ringo said, and tends to blindside other views insensitively. Though he is obviously hip, he can also be quite stubborn.

I also absolutely agree Bush stole the presidency in a deliberate fashion. Moore is certainly not alone there. In fact, I think over fifty million Americans can agree with that. Furthermore, ALL Americans know Al Gore really won the presidency by 540,000 votes. The slogan I'm holding up is "Re-Defeat Bush in 2004"

I am not all fr Michael's views, but I am going to see "Fahrenhet 911" when it is released this July. Everyone knows that Bush has had his ties with families such as those of the bin Laden's, and it is an area which has not received any illumination. I bet many will see this, and those who don't are likelythose who are either intimidated of the truth or hate Michael Moore..

Sincerey,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

LeeJ
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18 posted 05-18-2004 03:44 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

I just popped in and was amazed at the terrific discussion going on here.  I was afraid my views might start a war...but I see something I'm very proud of...a discussion, and allowing others their opinion.  I would like to add something to this conversation...it would be wise to remember, that when one man speaks, we are listening to an opionion of one man...and sometimes that man will provoke any lodgic to prove his point.  I don't believe all men are all bad...of course there is diversity in all...as it should be, what we must, each individual decide, within our hearts detaching ourselves emotionally, is what we choose to believe and do.  And that my friends, is still freedom...if only, people would not allow their decisions to be made in the name of money and material wealth.  Can you imagine how far advanced we'd be today...I mean the opportunity for technology would be incredible, not to mention, mentally.  I suppose what I'm saying is sometimes, ugly as they may be, wars are necessary...if they are for the right reasons...and again...I say...and picture myself imprisioned, hoping praying, someone another country, would come and save me.  We are all neighbors, and we must love them, as well as ourselves, which doesn't mean we'd turn away and say "gosh".  If I fell overboard and were drowing, I would hope someone would be there to help me...no matter what country he/she would be from.  

What it boils down to is, our levels of thinking, how we are and were conditioned, by our parent, our church and faith...but...like I always say...we cannot be responsible for redirecting someone's karma, through mean cruel words or actions, b/c if we do...we redirect our own, and suffer even more so.  Its ok to listen...but we must remember, the devel will sell you an entire lake of truth to disguise one pt of poison.  Whether it be me...the Pope, the Media, your clergy...etc....we are men, only men...and one man's opionion is not always the right for us...we must study, be aware and discern...very important.  Life, my friends to me, is worth fighting for...the same with woman and children being abused or raped...I cannot stand that and feel they deserve to know that someone cares and there is a much better way to live.  I don't believe God intended life to be abused as such.  Respectfully, thank you, to all of you, for I have learned.  Communication is a wonderful tool!

Ron
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19 posted 05-18-2004 05:20 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
War really is never necessary; Hitler could have easily never made it, it was just that simple twist of fate that benefitted him.

Hindsight is always 20/20, Noah. And even with the benefits of hindsight, I'm not sure your solution is any better. You would remove the freedom of Germans to choose their own destiny because you believe, in retrospect, they made bad choices? Subjugation, with or without violence, is still war.

quote:
after all my countries leader actually follows this ''deserter''....so we are worse than the Americans....

Goldenrose, I know you're trying, but this is exactly the kind of intentionally inflammatory rhetoric that keeps getting your posts edited. Putting a word in quotes doesn't change its meaning. Your name-calling is completely irrelevant to this discussion, is completely unsubstantiated within the discussion, and brings absolutely nothing to the table except hard feelings. Taking quick jabs at people is grade school stuff and rarely leads to good discussions. Are you just trying to provoke others? If you insist on poking people with a sharp stick, you will leave me with no alternative except to continue taking the stick away from you.
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20 posted 05-19-2004 05:26 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



I could agree hindsight is better than foresight, but it certainly is not always 20/20.

I feel as if we've staring through binoclars through binoculars through binoculars at once so often. As for the Iraq issue currently, we all have a common approach to what's happening but there is little consensus. We're all a bit vigilant but we're not exactly aware. The understanding is all too opaque right now, and soon enough our eyes will register the light and we'll gradually seek illumination, but by the time we do, we may have just stepped away from foresight unaware. In fact, we've probably had foresight stapled to the back of our heads long before we notice it.

I'd say yes and no to subjugtion being classified as war. Surely no one wants to be or feel subservient, but is it really war or just a state of mind or mental incarceration? Just because you may be under some obligation or dominion doesn't automatically make you at war, does it? I happen to think the common working father nowadays is under quite a lot of pressure and stress, and sometimes may feel subservient to the family, but does it mean he'll always resent it? Selfish behavior is often rooted in this, but the "do it for them" philosophy is often tattooed to their minds, and it reaps great rewards and, if not enduring, a moment of satisfaction and gratification each time the father sweats himnself out, only to see the smile on a daughter's face or something. No problem there.

Then I think of Irigaray and the view of the "woman in the marketplace". That women are seen in her view as being commodified and, because of exogamy prevailing, women are exempted from the marketplace while men are excused from being used as commodities. Indeed the struggle continues for women to find access to the entire system of exchange, and many women still feel enslaved, but there are, in fact, some women that actually accept being commodified, whether out of hopelessness or, perhaps, they enjoy the social position it gives them and the pleasures it reaps. I personally believe the whole idea of commodity must dissolve, but many certainly like it, and that too is a form of subjugation. And not everyone is at war.

I suppose it depends on how you'd consider one a prisoner. Cause I'm sure no one wants to be locked away in prison, but you also certainly don't see everyone clnging to the bars in havoc! I can see perhaps this same case scenario can be applied to pre-World War II, or any such event in particular! Most didn't support Adolf in his home country, nevrtheless we must accept he did indeed build himself up. All I'm saying is, foresight plays a role too, not as mighty as hindisght perhaps, but still a significant role, and it very well could have deflected this kind of enslavement.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

Ron
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21 posted 05-19-2004 11:15 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
All I'm saying is, foresight plays a role too, not as mighty as hindisght perhaps, but still a significant role, and it very well could have deflected this kind of enslavement.

And when, as obviously happens with less than omniscient people, it doesn't deflect? What would you do then, Noah?
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22 posted 05-19-2004 03:54 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



You can expect that kind of disappointment. Let's face it, both devices are not omnidirectional. You've got to train yourself to see through both fields of vision and understanding. You certainly can't live alone on foresight, but you also can't live alone on hindsight. If you always relate to events after they've happened, where's the redeeming quality?

If you always live with the expectation that someone is going to come and save you, how does it make you feel? You're petrified. Emancipating yourself is the real reward. If you rely on a "hero" to save you, and then the time comes, how would you feel afterwards? You'd certainly have a better morale, but have YOU really gained anything? You alone have the power.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

Ron
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23 posted 05-19-2004 08:35 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

So, you would have been against saving the world from Hitler? Those being killed, imprisoned, or subjugated should have emancipated themselves, as you put it?
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24 posted 05-20-2004 12:58 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Please Ron, don't blow this whole thing out of proportion. I never intended for this to shift to World War II anyway.

I am not defending Hitler and the vindictive acts he performed. What he did will forever be regarded as infamous and destructive, and far beyond the edge of the map of my creed.

However, yes, I believe emancipatig yourself plays a major role. To live your whole life and expect someone to always do something for you or save you is unhealthy. We're considered the so-called "police of the world", right? More countries certainly are praying they'll be reached out to in any certain extent, but we're spending all our time and over $100 billion in Iraq solely. What would you say if you were living in another trouble place in the world right now? Certainly you'd feel the whole situation is a lost cause, and you know you have to free yourself and your loved ones in the painful realization no one may come to your rescue anytime soon.

I decry what Hitler, terrorists and warmongers did and do, but I am also not going to participate in the charades of war. Blast me all you want on "not saving the world" and all by not supporting or participating in war, but don't forget what Thomas Jefferson said; war is as much a punishment to the punisher as it is to the sufferer.

Living your whole life in hindsight is a form of procrastination too, don't forget. Expecting things to even out after each situation is not the equivalent of letting nature run her course. You've got to take it to heart too. We all choose different approaches to that, and I choose the non-violent approach. I peacefully observe while doing my part in my community to hope these repercussions don't happen again. That is how I act. I don't believe in war, and that also means I don't engage in war. Simple as that. I denounced what Hitler and Saddam did, but will have nothing to do with the battle. I support simply by praying and honoring my best of wishes. I support our troops simply by praying and giving them my best of wishes, nothing more is necessary.

Everyone has their cheerleaders. I am simply an unpatriotic cheerleader, yet possess a love for all the children of the world and the defending of peace in its original fashion. And I am proud to be here!

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20
 
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