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In the Name of Freedom? For This Diamond & Goldenrose and
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In the Name of Freedom? For This Diamond & Goldenrose and |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296
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To This Diamond & Golden Rose What your about to read, is not directed at any one particular person...just thoughts which Golden Rose sparked in my mind this morning and felt a desire to express. Thank you "Golden Rose" for bringing such courageous men to our attention.What you’re doing is a good thing and praises the men who sacrificed their lives so bravely for the freedom of other human beings.Commendable and caring. "This Diamond"...this is my perspective on your question adding much more of my thoughts and reservations. Back then, I believe people were a little different.…it wasn’t about the almighty dollar bill and what sells, then, there was more concentration on human beings, concern for neighbors, friends and relatives and respect for their privacy, as well. Courtesy then, seemed to be a real working word.Morals and self respect was a part of our culture, as was sharing and considerations for others…decisions were made then, for the good of the people, not the good of their pocket books, I believe? Now, it’s such a mixed up crazy world… As I struggle with wars and their purpose and remember all I’ve read about them, they’ve existed since the beginning of time and part of each generation.Wars are ugly monsters.Heinous things happen, which would not happen under normal circumstances.But, war is not a “normal circumstance”.They say wars makes men out of boys…I disagree.How can any young man in their late teens, early twenty’s be prepared for what they are about to encounter, see and live? We must remember and take a step back for a moment.When we were young, we didn’t always make the best decisions with “consequences for our actions in mind”.Lest I sound contradictive,I do believe then, we possessed a little more fear of what would befall us, (out of respect for our parents) more so, then our children today.But I do remember making some very unwise decisions then, as well. We’ve somehow lost the wisdom of cause and effect in our community here in the US, and forgetting about the consequences which will befall others due to our actions and decisions. I find the mellowing years of my life have made me, shall we say, less tolerant *S*….war my friends is an ugly thing…it makes our soldiers endure and see such things that we could never begin to imagine, and people do indeed suffer and die. War changes men, the anger, hostility and wanton to get even builds.What great responsibility we place onthe younger members of our society, while fat politicians sit back and expect? I cannot imagine what I would feel & do if in their shoes, at 22 years old, knowing that the future of my country might well fall if I failed, not to mention the peer pressure of my fellow soldiers and those in charge of battle.I would be completely at their mercy and might very well feel compelled to follow the group, even if against every fiber of my belief. None of us bear in mind what they must be experiencing over there.Whose command they are under?They are out of our safe havens away from the warm arms of family, friends & for the first time in their lives, being introduced to areal world, so to speak, a not so good world.They are forced to befriend their fellow soldiers as brothers and we’d better hope the others have some moral upbringing, who else do they have, not to mention…go along with the crowd, and if they don’t I’d hate to think of the consequences they’d be forced to face.Now, lest we consider, they’ve been trained to kill in order to survive. I’m not condoning what is presently going on, by any means…what I’m saying is, war is an ugly heinous event which scars, abuses, mames and murders.There are casualties in every degree.War thinks not about anything but survival…all else becomes secondary and must. Never-the-less, we do indeed need a president and a people who will fight terrorism, but I struggle with the real reasons why we are over there.You know, it was so soon after 9-11 and we were all shocked and in disbelief.We wanted revenge and were blood thirsty for someone to pay for what occurred; we wanted an eye for an eye, didn’t we? You cannot take a culture that has been conditioned for thousands of years and expect them to think like we do?No two people ever think alike and so be it with other countries.We have the highest divorce rate today, and yet, we expect, literally expect other countries to think like we do????? Yes, I am very happy we tore down Hussein’s regime of hate crimes and torture, but one thing bothers me and stays with me.How can you possibly straighten out another person’s home…when your own home is a bloody mess?(The USA) I’m happy we went over there and freed innocent woman, men and children, but we will never be able to change their culture and must wonder who will be next to step into Hussein’s position?There will be another, and another, you know. So what do you do?Blow the entire country to smithereens, simply b/c we do not think and feel as them? And please don’t misunderstand, I’m not making light of terrorisum.But,what is the answer…..how do you prevent other countries from making bombs that kill?Especially when we, and other countries, sold weapons to them that they are using today, black market? What are the answers when all decisions are made from the lust of money and what’s in it for me? Oh my, where does a new beginning start.You’ve got so many people in this country who are walking zombies, so unaware of what’s really going on, pretending that we’re living in a moral and good world and every other country is the bully, heck, not us, how could we be? Right now we are so vulnerable to viruses and there has been no major research…let alone any other disease, hasn’t anyone asked themselves why? We have thousands of people in this country illegally, with no sense of duty to community, yet will take anything free that is given them with no humble abode.Mind you, I’m not saying everyone is a bad people.There is good and bad in every country.But…when you allow yourself to be a victim, people will take advantage, it’s human nature. Our jails have become safe havens for prisoners to go to get out of cold weather, to retain a college degree? They house tiled floors and work out rooms, computers and the like.They should be feared places where no man would want to go! We slap people on the hands for murders and say, take away the guns that will stop crime.I think not! Most law suits in court today should be thrown out of court…but, anything for a quick buck, right? There is a great lack of emphasis on education, not to mention, if we entered another country and wanted to live there, we would be expected to not only respect their rulesbut their language, as well????No other country on the face of this earth is as lenient as we are. We have become intolerant to the ideas of others and way too liberal with our thinking.We look to blame instead of owning up to the fact that yes, I did it, I was wrong, yes I lied. Which opens another can of worms on the word honesty, self-respect and fidelity to self? There are very insecure people/leaders in positions today, who are literally afraid to hire someone who knows more then they do, so they hire someone who knows less, which filters down within the system and right to the top.Incompetence and unethical behavior, lack of education, values and morals.If you treat your employees like thieves they will rob you blind! We laugh at things we should deem immoral and corrupt…unacceptable behavior! Our school systems are tearing down the possibilities for American Citizens & the culture we represent. It isn’t about the best man for the job anymore, it’s who you are, and what you lack, which awards any position today. This is the year 2004 and do you realize how many people are in this country who cannot speak English, let alone read or write??????Speech is an insult to society, the slang and slurs which cannot be understood???? Oh my, I could go on and on….I suppose what I’m trying to say is this…and once again I reiterates. How can we fix things in other countries, when we cannot fix things in our own?You can’t!You will have irresponsible leaders, bad decision making and a lack of education, both morals and tactical.Oh my, all I can think of is, poor poor Mr. Colin Powell.That man must be loosing his hair. Sorry, had to articulate my feelings….hope that no one was offended…but…it’s time we stand up and be counted.Demand the people we are paying to run this country b/c we’re way to lazy to get involved and say, how can I make a difference.Believe me, they’re living in the lap of luxury, pocketing all our money, and doing way too little for the good of man and society in the name of “In God We Trust”.They tackle little idiot issues to keep us thinking they’re doing their jobs…the media blows everything way outa proportion b/c they need to fill they’re time space and there doesn’t happen to be any heart stopping news today????We watch way too much TV????? We’re way to fat, our children are obese….physically and metaphorically!Why?Did our children today, ever hear of kick the tin can? Cell phone annoy me to no end, and it’s so confounded rude to put someone on hold to receive another call. I find it rude to go grocery shopping and being forced to walk aside of a woman who is talking her life over on the phone right next to me???There is nothing personal or sacred anymore? And when it comes to Sexual behavior…well, in my opinion, we should be ashamed! Now, take these kind of mentality, and give it a gun and tell it to go out and kill your enemy. In my book, that is a receipt for disaster?Whose fault is it really?It starts right there with me and you right at the beginning and filters on through.What ever decision you make, what action you implement, is going to have an effect…and it doesn’t take very long. I believe these are all things we really need to think about…we really need to wake up…because if we don’t, we are going to be in for a rude awakening very soon.Not to mention…what is it going to be like for the next generation?It’s not hopeless, but it certainly does need some adjusting. Laws do not always seem fair, but they are there for a good reason, and today, laws don’t mean a thing regarding politicians, attorneys, stars or anyone with any powerful assets!Laws do not pertain to the rich and famous!How insulting! Now, how in the world did the price of homes skyrocket as they did, and where is all that money coming from to buy those homes….and why are people buying them, paying that kind of price for them.Oh, yes, my friend, there is and will be a price for a home that costly.You know who will suffer?The children, being raised latch key, feeling as if they have no parents.Is it worth keeping up with the Joneses? I’m going to end this essay with one question…I was very moved with Golden Rose’s tribute to all the men who have lost their lives fighting for the very things we lack in this country today.I cannot help but ask myself…if they were here now, if God sent them down to see what we’ve become…do you think they would deem their loss a cause and effect worthwhile.I don’t know about you, but I’m very embarrassed, disgusted and ashamed.There you have it Universal Studios/Walt Disney, why not make that a serious movie in the name of entertainment? So the world who they really are?And please forgive, not trying to be sarcastic or angry, but tell the truth and stand up for what I believe in. Thank you kindly for taking the time to read and to Golden Rose and This Diamond for the insight, perspective and courage to write this. |
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JL Member Ascendant
since 2004-04-01
Posts 6128Texas, USA |
Lee J: Very well expressed. I agree, we are not hopeless, but some in the media mainstream and some of the leaders in our government are. God bless you Lee J for being so open and honest about your thoughts and feelings. JL  She said: ”You look cute in the dark.” |
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Mistletoe Angel 
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
 God Bless You, all of you! I respect all of you for sharing your convictions, as war is the most ugliest thing in our world, and the thing in which makes monsters out of us all. I'd also like to add, strongly, from the bottom of my heart, that peace does NOT go two ways. Eiher you believe in peace or you believe in war. If you support a war, you do not believe in the trueness of peace, simple as that. Therefore, no matter if you supported war on Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, whatever, you all have yet to know the true essence of peace. Peace is earned through unconditional love, not the bayonet. It is heard through the wind, NOT the bomb. It is tasted through the honey, NOT the oil. And peace should come to us, NOT us coming to it. I say, when our politicians start acting more like soldiers, then we will be on Square Two. Unfortunately we have a president, an administration, etc. living in constant fear and blind rage and wearing veils of uncertainty who keep attempting to fight the same old battles that we've lost time and time again in history, and when their ignorance is finally lifted, perhaps peace may finally find a way to seep in. I pray with you three and may God Bless Us all and may peace be with us all! Love, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Hello JL and Noah, thank you for responding. Noah, the convictions you relayed in your comment are true...yes, wars are ugly things...but, think for one moment if you will, about all the jews who were absolutely tortured, experiemented on...not to mention, stripped stark naked in front of each other. What do you think, is the worst way to humiliate a person and rob them of all their confidence and fight. By ordering them to take their cloths off. Noah...I cannot help but wonder, why were all those thousands of Jews so passive, why didn't they fight for their lives. God gave us lives to live...which to me is a sacred and most absolute significance. If we wouldn't have fought that war, how many more would have suffered. I feel the same way about the Afro American Slaves, who were beaten, raped, and slaughtered. In that war, I believe we lost 1100 men each and every day. If we wouldn't have won that war, what might have happened. We are human beings, a community, and each and every country in this entire world is our neighbors. I was raised to believe that you didn't allow your neighbor to suffer, you helped and gave in anyway you could. If someone needed surgery, you helped the other spouse with their children, neighbors pitched in and made meals for the family, bought them grocerys and yes, even helped pay their morgage/or rent. If a home burned, you helped that family raise that home and barn again. People and business owners came for miles around to do so. And so should it be by our neighbors in every other country. A general in Washington said...we as Americans would like to sit back and believe we are moral, fair and honest human beings. We look to everyone else as the bullies. Not so...we in fact are hated by every nation. Its ok to lend a hand to people, but it's not ok to expect them to believe as we do. You cannot take a culture who has been conditioned for thousands of years and tell them that they're beliefs are wrong. But...in the same, if people are being slaughtered, mistreated, abused, or are starving...it's ok to lend a hand to help unconditionally, even if that means fighting/war against those who are violating moral substance. Noah, if the US were under seige...and you were in a prision camp right in the town you now live in...and those soldiers were mistreating you, beating you, raping you, starving you, burning you alive...wouldn't you hope that someone, anyone from another country would stand up and fight to save you? To give you back your freedom? I certainly would. Noah, yes, War is wrong if we're over there for any other reason then to free those men woman and children who were being slaugthered and abused. But to sit back and turn our heads and do nothing is wrong as well. An eye for an eye, does not work, it simply fuels the fire and breeds more hate, crime and murder of innocent people. But...in the same Noah...we do need to fight terrorism, by God, we do. Because if we don't send a message that this is unacceptable behavior...we will soon have all those people living right here under our noses taking control of our land. Noah, I don't have all the answers surely, but one thing I do know...I will stand by any human being who is being mistreated and fight to my death if need be, b/c they are a child of God and He wouldn't want me to turn my head. If God gave someone life...then they deserve to be free to make choices just like ourselves. They have a right to expect respect and to be deemed a most significant part of our society. And our society doesn't stop on the boarders of the US. Now as far as any American who inflicts harm on another, well, I don't care about their background, how they were raised, what kind of stress they are under...if we allow anything like that to continue, trying to find physiological excuses for such heinous behavior...well, simply this, then we've lost respect and regard for not only ourselves, but for human beings. Blaming the system is not a cure, blaming the background of a criminal is not going to dismiss the fact that a crime was indeed committed. And if you don't make the guilty parties pay...then it will indeed filter right into society. A law is a law, and respect for mankind should be something we hold onto and fight for. Terrorism is spreading like a disease....even within our own country...meaning our laws and our liberal way of thinking. If a child picks up a gun and shoots another child..it must be the gun, or his upbringing. Well, I was raised to believe, by my parents, that if I disrespected the law or another person, teacher, then I had to suffer the consequences. Not so in today's world...parents no longer raise their children...and defend misbehavior to the hilt. And this has filtered down through our entire way of thinking...blame someone else, or the system, or society...as no one person today, is held accountable for their actions. Just sit back and take a long look at what is going on right now...and listen for all the excuses that everyone offers for crimes against other human beings. We are, headed for disaster, I fear, as people have lost self respect, the ability to think with common sense, and bend the laws to their behalf. If your a movie star, your exempt from crime, even murder. Noah, this is wrong and unacceptable...and this is filtering into the very fibers of our being. What those soldiers did and eveyone who knew about it, to those Iraqi prisoners was unacceptable and all those who committed the crimes should be held accountable. Noah, wars are nasty and hateful things...but, by God, if someone is abusing a brother of mine, I don't care if your American, I'm going to stand up for that until the day I die...and I don't care, what religion you believe in...what color your skin...your my brother, and I expect the same rights for you, as I do for myself...and if there are people who are being abused in other countries...slaughtered, starved, raped or mistreated....yes, we should come to their aid...get the job done and then leave them to their freedom. My only question about this war is....are we over there for the right reasons? As even though I voted for our president, I cannot help but question this administration and their values and commitment to doing their job for the better of the people. But, that is another subject, not far from what I have touched base on here. It is my belief, that life is a sacred commonity, and when someone violates that unique and speical gift, they must be held accountable. I hope I have not insulted anyone here by expressing my opinion...If I have I apologize...I will not give up on the fact that there is still hope for our country...for the world...laws are laws, not always fair but there for a reason...and they must be upheld no matter who you are...God help Mr. Colin Powell presently, I feel so bad for him and everyone else that this country, the media, and its people (us) who sit back and point fingers...hoping it will all somehow magically clean itself up by itself. It won't. And until people start sticking together, for the sake of morals and respect...instead of the almight dollar? Thank you for reading and allowing me my belief and I welcome anyone to offer anything more that I may not know, and could learn from in dicussion. Thank goodness and God for forums like these. |
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ThisDiamond Member Rara Avis
since 2002-02-22
Posts 9353Michigan, USA |
LeeJ You Rock! If we have been given the gift to draw upon the human heart...then the honor of painting a new world is ours to share. Write ON! Thank you for your thoughts, gentleness and common sense. :-) I will be joining you, and Golden Rose, and so many of our talented poets to give this message. Hugs, TD |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
[Post Edited Opinions are welcome to be discussed UNTIL they become intentionally inflammatory. People who don't know how to do that should learn. - Ron ] [This message has been edited by Ron (05-13-2004 03:18 PM).] |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
I did not mean it to be internationally inflammatory ..i was merely quoting from a fellow Americans best selling book Micael Moore....who has said the same thing for years... so it is nothing new it is now common knowledge.... If i offended anybody then i appologise...let me assure you it certainly wasnt intended....my ethic is peace, love and kindness.....not hurting peoples feelings... Goldenrose. ''There is no need for temples, no need for complicated Philosophies. My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness''- Dalai Lama |
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RSWells Member Elite
since 2001-06-17
Posts 2533 |
LeeJ, I appreciate your concerns and am glad more people are being worn down by the fact that there is no end in sight to the philosophy that we should rule the world our way with only selfish regard for the future. However I dare go no further. For one thing this is a very emotional topic and hard feelings are bound to result. In addition the website is a microcosm of our great country in that a handful of very right leaning individuals are influential. Just poetry reading, commenting and perhaps posting for me here henceforth. I'd thought poetry and peace were nearly synonymous. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Lee, with all due respect, I sympathize with those who cry from their prisons, praying if they may ever find freedom, if someone will come to save them. There indeed have been many heinous acts in history. Genocides, pestilence, obstruction of justice, terrorism, etc. All things that I denounce greatly. I denounced 9/11, as it saddens me to think of those who wish to afflict harm on the innocent. I denounced the war on Iraq, as it is a mirror reflection of 9/11 in many of their points of view, where, though the world may be safer without Saddam Hussein, thousands were killed in the process. World War II I hardly even consider a war. Blind rage enshrouded those who afflicted harm on the Jews; just raw hatred and anger. World War II was all about Social Darwinism; the menacing belief that one type of people must govern all, and genocide must be performed to uphold the moral standard. It was just a heinous conquest and hardly a war. And fortunately it was thwarted. It was not war that freed the slaves, it was the afterglow of reconcilation that did so. The realization that we fight, but for what? War would have kept the border lines visible forever. The philosophy you share here is exactly that in which I believe. If a home is burned, do you go find the culprit, tie that guilty conscience up and perform torture? No, you just turn the other cheek and rebuild with those that lend a helping hand. Our nation is built on that Christian doctrine of "forgiving and forgetting" and unfortunately many have turned away from that dogma. To that respect, action is indeed an option to protecting morals, but I do not believe in it. What many fail to understand is "terrorism" cannot be stopped until the thought of it is clear from all our minds. Terrorism develops from thoughts of hatred, anger, deceit, the animal instincts that create waves of rigid behavior. No matter what war you fight, someone will always feel disappointed, and when you're terrorized by disappointment, the war is never won. Let's not forget terrorists are people too. They too are terrorized by something, even if hatred governs their existence, and it should be our responsibility to stop, listen, and let them open up exactly what troubles them and what they really need. They battle with their emotions, and terrorists are those who lose that battle. It doesn't mean they have to war; love can thwart it. Fighting terrorism, to me, is like smashing a mirror. It'll shatter, but it doesn't mean the reflection is gone, it still reflects in all the speckles of glass. Soon enough you realize you were better off leaving the mirror alone. It just so happens when you're fighting terrorism, you're terrorizing somone else in the process. Look at where the war on Iraq has brought us. Now politicians are warring against each other, fear and doubts are filling Americans minds on both presidental candidaes and the future of our country, Iraqis polled say though the world is better without Saddam, conditions are worse since the U.S came in. We accomplished one mission, but what worth did that have? Too often now many think only of the short-term scenarios, never the long-term scenarios. War is NEVER beneficial in long-term scenarios. Now we're seeing the country divided moe than ever in how they should be governed, as well as here. No one deserves to or should be abused or raped or humiliated like those Iraqi prisoners have, and I too would be desperate in being rescued. I certainly wouldn't want my hero to have to kill in order to save me. I'd rather be saved by a free-spirited martyr than a fool who keeps true to his orders. There are plenty of ways we can rescue and protect our brothers and sisers in spirit worldwide without resorting to war. Our politicians always choose the cowardly way, which history shows never gives total satisfaction. Acts of unconditional love, which could be used through diplomacy, spies and secret units who can capture those who only wish to afflict harm on others and keep others from being put in harms way of bombs and missiles, spending our military money on acts of charitable cause, and most importantly, reversing the psychology that someone is always to blame and the price must be paid, which the media continues to churn and encourage the children. I guarantee if the media would actually ecourage the philosophy of love without prejudice, we wouldn't be in this rut we are now. You say so yourself: "Blaming the system is not a cure, blaming the background of a criminal is not going to dismiss the fact that a crime was indeed committed.". I breathe this mentality, and that is exactly how wars are created, from blame and prejudice. I believe everything is seeping through the wrong filter; Michael Jackson SHOULD be in jail, Saddam Hussein SHOULD be locked away from society, etc. In war, nothing is ethical. Does anyone REALLY think about moral upbringing, life as a sacred commonity, respect, etc. in times of war? In war, nobody is secure. All people care about in war is getting the job done if it's the last thing they do; they forget all the ethics about it. War is just a chrome-plated state of mind that cuts off the circulation of blood in all the rest of you, and once you finally free yourself from it, everything is unnerving. I guarantee a majority of troops down there are weary and would studder in answering the question, "What are we fighting for?". I guarantee a majority of troops down there just want to get the job done and fly back home to their families and loved ones and they aren't interested in thinking about the morals of this struggle. The fact is, morals are simply dismissed in our society, and replaced by the pathetic sheet paper illusion of it; patriotism. Patriotism is what deceived many into supporting the war in the first place, and what is using all its foolish arrogance it has left in trying to keep the war justified. Patriotism is the disease of existence, which would make any baby laugh in disbelief of the stupidity it generates that can turn the most learned man into the jester. When patrioism is finally defeated and morals prosper again, war may never be discussed again. I am a believer in peace and I believe that everyone in this world are brothers and sisters in spirit to us, as we are all children of God, and I believe when a sister cries or a brother is sad, we must reach out to them with open arms...nothing more. Just naked, open arms. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you But if the bright lights don't receive you You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20 |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
As everyone on here should already know,I give everyone the right to their thoughts and opinion. Michael Moore, however, just might start my short list of those who aren't. Michael Moore is no more interested in getting to the truth, or reporting it factually, and without bias than 99.9% of the people in this world. He intentionally makes baised movies, and writes biased books for the sole purpose of making a few dollars. He is intentionally inflammatory just so that he can keep his name at the top of the page. Taking anything he writes, or seeing any movie he makes and accepting it as the factual view of things is being slightly naive. Just as accepting ANYONE'S opinion without looking at all sides (there's always more than both) and deciding for yourself. Michael Moore has no interest in doing that. Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again... |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I used to think you were simply naïve and all too innocent, Noah. When I see rationalizations like this, however, I begin to realize you're really not all that different from everyone else. You don't get to change the language, Noah, to help yourself feel more comfortable with black and white absolutes. History doesn't call it WCII, after all. The effort to forestall Nazi domination was a war, one of the most bloody and ruthlessly fought wars in all of history. There are many, many differences between that war and Iraq, but the violence remains the same. So, too, must the word. Noah, if you grant that even one war was justified and necessary, you can no longer argue that war is evil. And that's cool, I think, because then you can drop the rhetoric and start honestly exploring the reasons a specific act is either warranted or unwarranted. Just like the rest of us. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
What is that supposed to mean, Ron? Did you see me as some kind of alien all this time, who is only capable of thinking of innocent things? Did you see me as some kind of evolution? Did you expect too much of me? It frankly breaks my heart if you really think that way. Just like politics, I hate rationale, yet with this intuitive quagmire ongoing here, I find it is my reluctant obligation to study the logics behind these problems so I know how I may help in breaking the mentality with the child's eye. Who can say who is naive or not? Who can say which historian who writes history is the most correct? I happen to believe much of history has been written by thieves, but I'm not going to press any charges. And though I have my own hunch on certain things, it doesn't mean I'm attempting to re-write the whole language. I'm just writing another account is all. A different account using the same languae. Also, I have to get this by. Did I ever say war, specifically, was evil? No, I did not. All I said was I believe war never solves anything, and is unethical. Indeed I respect how some greedy minds just want to dominate anothers territory or lifestyle, thus they're forced to defnd themselves. There's nothing evil about that. But I can say not everyone is certainly going to be satisfied after the struggle. Someone will still be complaining, somene will still feel rejected. And that's exactly what creates a spinoff of a skirmish. No, I too, a human, and I wish to be dignified as that. I am not ashamed to admit that, and that doesn't mean I am just like everyone else. All I wish is to have just a little common sense evn if it's an outdated term, so I have the ability to sympathize with others. And if I am no different in every way, help me Lord. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you But if the bright lights don't receive you You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20 |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I do happen to agree with you a bit here, Ringo. I am not going to start a list of those who should't have the right to their thoughts and opinions, but, just like Anne Coulter, Clarke, etc. I do think Michael Moore, the two I've mentioned and many other writers like this have a lack of sensitivity to the other opinion. Perhaps Michael Moore is indeed fervently interested in finding the truth, perhaps its even his lifetime commitment. I do not disagree with him entirely, as some of his liberal views I share. But when you think radically, few ever really take you seriously. It's dangerous territory to step in. You can lose your credibility just like that. I do think Michael Moore is radically on the left as Anne Coulter is radically on the right. And yes, I do think they're both interested in creating a "shock value" and purosely make inflammatory remarks to stay on top, and they realize money is the only thing that'll keep them up there. So the conduit is all ran from fame and wealth. I relate better to Al Franken than I do Michael Moore personally, and even then I'm no going to leave "Lies And The Lying Liars Who Tell Them" the only dog-earred selection. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Yet you seem to agree, Noah, that WWII solved the immediate problem of Hitler? Would it have been more ethical to do nothing? If war is necessary, as most believe it sometimes is, it's going to be very difficult to mount an effective argument that war is wrong simply because people get hurt. In too many cases throughout history, Hitler being one of them, refusing to fight would result in greater harm to far more people than would the war. Sometimes, war isn't the problem, but rather is the only available solution to the underlying problem of tyranny. One shouldn't condemn the doctor for cutting out a cancerous tumor. Blame the tumor for your pain, not the operation that possibly saved your life. Neither surgery nor war is something to actively seek. But they shouldn't always be avoided at any cost, either. |
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ThisDiamond Member Rara Avis
since 2002-02-22
Posts 9353Michigan, USA |
I have been reading here, and quite impressed with the sharing... I wonder sometimes how it would feel to be a German citizen in WWII, or a prisoner... I think about Iraq and the resident people there...and I think back to the horror of 9/11 and... I hate the horror of war, and I realize that innocent are harmed with the guilty...and I read the paper today and know of the mistreatment...and know that the information sought would save thousands of lives. The first contact I had regarding this theme was from Golden Rose to honor those who were brave, and remember with honor those that fought and died. I was a child during Vietnam...and had my three uncles returned to me. In my heart, I cannot disagree with any point made, or any opinion offered, they are all deserving of their point... But you know, every soldier and every citizen goes to war for their belief...it is brave, it is costly and I can only hope that the precious freedoms that we all enjoy will always prevail. I am going to start an add on poem...wishes dropped into loving arms for the brave, and the innocent, and the harmed and the free. If all those wishes were gathered up by poets, they should represent an honorable write. Hugs, TD |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I do think it would be agreed in a landslide that the world is better without Adolf Hitler. What I also believe, however, is World War I inspired World War II. The Germans were most penalized in its aftermath, and were eyed like a hawk and seen as the black sheep of the world. They were limited in their options and inevitably there comes resentment to conditions like that. Unanimously they were fed up with the sanctioning and punishment. All they needed was a determining voice to console them, and, unfortunately, it happened to be his. Htler was never even "loved" among his followers. He lost elections multiple times by comfortable margins (in 1932 I think it was) and though his party gradually gained power, he never had a majority. In light of that, Hitler could have easily been stopped all along. Reluctance created this tragedy. No, I think the reluctance to get to the root of the problem right away creates these rippling effects, that can stimulate conflict. War really is never necessary; Hitler could have easily never made it, it was just that simple twist of fate that benefitted him. Hussein could have easily been captured after the Kuwait incident. It's this short-sighted social science that is letting these things blow out of proportion. War really is never necessary; but many wait until an issue becomes an issue to make up an excuse and say "I beg to differ, we have no choice" Doing nothing is not a choice. I do agree that is also dangerous, perhaps just as much as warring. But I also believe the problem can easily be resolved before it escalates. It can be as simple as pulling the root of a weed out of the soil. And in light of that, waiting until the flowerbed is a jungle of weeds is not an option either. That's exactly what happened in World War II, and that's what's happening in Iraq. The difference between a surgery and a war is that in a surgery, you are in control. You can make that bold walk into the hospital, accept the surgery, and deal with the problem. You are in total control and responsibility of yourself. In war, there is no control. Every man goes his own way, fighting for his own purpose, but you're not in control of the grand scheme of things. You are absorbed in it. And not being in war, I cannot begin to imagine how it must feel, but there I know it's evident no one can fully describe the effects. In surgery, one can understand the gist of it; of the risks, the precautions, the requirements. Indeed, again, I repeat, the world is a better place without Hitler. But this particular war could have easily been prevented. Even if Hitler never made it and another one of his colleagues followed through, those approximately 56% who never lent their support their way had the chance to prevent this. They just didn't follow through together. War is an option to many, but it certainly isn't necessary. One thing leads to another, and that's what World War I did to inspire World War II. No war is good, and I personally claim no war is right. Please know I understand I, myself, didn't grow up during WWII or Vietnam, but seriously, we should all easily agree just as much as the world is safer without Hitler or Hussein that no war is "good". Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you But if the bright lights don't receive you You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20 |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
Maybe the real reason Americans do not like Michael Moore is because he holds up a mirror to American citizens..and they dont like what they see...after all his record stands up for all to see..he does not do the things for money or to keep on top but out of a failure for Amreicans to see what's in front of them....he is not to the left either..he attacks demorcrats equally as republicans....he didnt vote for either of them... His books are best sellers...in America...so a lot of people in America must be reading them...his Film ''Bowling For Columbine'' won the Oscar....highlighting America's paranoia with ''protecting'' themselves with guns and his new film ''Farenheit911'' has been nominated at the Cannes film festival....so why is Michael Moore so hated?....Is it because he gets to the truth and poeple just cannot handle the truth? The new film highlights Bush's connections to Osama Bin Laden's family and how he evacuated them from America directly after the 911 attacks..i would say that was pretty impressive journalism...one that the American people would be interested to know. He is the only one bold enough to say that Bush ''stole'' the presidency..how else do you explain how a country of over 300 million people with 200 million eligible voters....let a man into the whitehouse who only got a quater of the votes....!!!!!! But i am just a stupid english man....after all my countries leader actually follows this ''deserter''....so we are worse than the Americans.... But peace to everyone...kindness to the world is what i want to see not wars or even politics...let me stick to writing poetry...you can argue the merits of this but nothing will change..we dont have the power to do that... Have a great week ...and happy summer... Goldenrose. ''There is no need for temples, no need for complicated Philosophies. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Goldenrose, I agree that Michael Moore does indeed make good points, and he is deeply committed to his job. The point I was making was that Michael Moore is biased, like Ringo said, and tends to blindside other views insensitively. Though he is obviously hip, he can also be quite stubborn. I also absolutely agree Bush stole the presidency in a deliberate fashion. Moore is certainly not alone there. In fact, I think over fifty million Americans can agree with that. Furthermore, ALL Americans know Al Gore really won the presidency by 540,000 votes. The slogan I'm holding up is "Re-Defeat Bush in 2004" I am not all fr Michael's views, but I am going to see "Fahrenhet 911" when it is released this July. Everyone knows that Bush has had his ties with families such as those of the bin Laden's, and it is an area which has not received any illumination. I bet many will see this, and those who don't are likelythose who are either intimidated of the truth or hate Michael Moore.. Sincerey, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
I just popped in and was amazed at the terrific discussion going on here. I was afraid my views might start a war...but I see something I'm very proud of...a discussion, and allowing others their opinion. I would like to add something to this conversation...it would be wise to remember, that when one man speaks, we are listening to an opionion of one man...and sometimes that man will provoke any lodgic to prove his point. I don't believe all men are all bad...of course there is diversity in all...as it should be, what we must, each individual decide, within our hearts detaching ourselves emotionally, is what we choose to believe and do. And that my friends, is still freedom...if only, people would not allow their decisions to be made in the name of money and material wealth. Can you imagine how far advanced we'd be today...I mean the opportunity for technology would be incredible, not to mention, mentally. I suppose what I'm saying is sometimes, ugly as they may be, wars are necessary...if they are for the right reasons...and again...I say...and picture myself imprisioned, hoping praying, someone another country, would come and save me. We are all neighbors, and we must love them, as well as ourselves, which doesn't mean we'd turn away and say "gosh". If I fell overboard and were drowing, I would hope someone would be there to help me...no matter what country he/she would be from. What it boils down to is, our levels of thinking, how we are and were conditioned, by our parent, our church and faith...but...like I always say...we cannot be responsible for redirecting someone's karma, through mean cruel words or actions, b/c if we do...we redirect our own, and suffer even more so. Its ok to listen...but we must remember, the devel will sell you an entire lake of truth to disguise one pt of poison. Whether it be me...the Pope, the Media, your clergy...etc....we are men, only men...and one man's opionion is not always the right for us...we must study, be aware and discern...very important. Life, my friends to me, is worth fighting for...the same with woman and children being abused or raped...I cannot stand that and feel they deserve to know that someone cares and there is a much better way to live. I don't believe God intended life to be abused as such. Respectfully, thank you, to all of you, for I have learned. Communication is a wonderful tool! |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Hindsight is always 20/20, Noah. And even with the benefits of hindsight, I'm not sure your solution is any better. You would remove the freedom of Germans to choose their own destiny because you believe, in retrospect, they made bad choices? Subjugation, with or without violence, is still war. quote: Goldenrose, I know you're trying, but this is exactly the kind of intentionally inflammatory rhetoric that keeps getting your posts edited. Putting a word in quotes doesn't change its meaning. Your name-calling is completely irrelevant to this discussion, is completely unsubstantiated within the discussion, and brings absolutely nothing to the table except hard feelings. Taking quick jabs at people is grade school stuff and rarely leads to good discussions. Are you just trying to provoke others? If you insist on poking people with a sharp stick, you will leave me with no alternative except to continue taking the stick away from you. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I could agree hindsight is better than foresight, but it certainly is not always 20/20. I feel as if we've staring through binoclars through binoculars through binoculars at once so often. As for the Iraq issue currently, we all have a common approach to what's happening but there is little consensus. We're all a bit vigilant but we're not exactly aware. The understanding is all too opaque right now, and soon enough our eyes will register the light and we'll gradually seek illumination, but by the time we do, we may have just stepped away from foresight unaware. In fact, we've probably had foresight stapled to the back of our heads long before we notice it. I'd say yes and no to subjugtion being classified as war. Surely no one wants to be or feel subservient, but is it really war or just a state of mind or mental incarceration? Just because you may be under some obligation or dominion doesn't automatically make you at war, does it? I happen to think the common working father nowadays is under quite a lot of pressure and stress, and sometimes may feel subservient to the family, but does it mean he'll always resent it? Selfish behavior is often rooted in this, but the "do it for them" philosophy is often tattooed to their minds, and it reaps great rewards and, if not enduring, a moment of satisfaction and gratification each time the father sweats himnself out, only to see the smile on a daughter's face or something. No problem there. Then I think of Irigaray and the view of the "woman in the marketplace". That women are seen in her view as being commodified and, because of exogamy prevailing, women are exempted from the marketplace while men are excused from being used as commodities. Indeed the struggle continues for women to find access to the entire system of exchange, and many women still feel enslaved, but there are, in fact, some women that actually accept being commodified, whether out of hopelessness or, perhaps, they enjoy the social position it gives them and the pleasures it reaps. I personally believe the whole idea of commodity must dissolve, but many certainly like it, and that too is a form of subjugation. And not everyone is at war. I suppose it depends on how you'd consider one a prisoner. Cause I'm sure no one wants to be locked away in prison, but you also certainly don't see everyone clnging to the bars in havoc! I can see perhaps this same case scenario can be applied to pre-World War II, or any such event in particular! Most didn't support Adolf in his home country, nevrtheless we must accept he did indeed build himself up. All I'm saying is, foresight plays a role too, not as mighty as hindisght perhaps, but still a significant role, and it very well could have deflected this kind of enslavement. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: And when, as obviously happens with less than omniscient people, it doesn't deflect? What would you do then, Noah? |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
You can expect that kind of disappointment. Let's face it, both devices are not omnidirectional. You've got to train yourself to see through both fields of vision and understanding. You certainly can't live alone on foresight, but you also can't live alone on hindsight. If you always relate to events after they've happened, where's the redeeming quality? If you always live with the expectation that someone is going to come and save you, how does it make you feel? You're petrified. Emancipating yourself is the real reward. If you rely on a "hero" to save you, and then the time comes, how would you feel afterwards? You'd certainly have a better morale, but have YOU really gained anything? You alone have the power. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
So, you would have been against saving the world from Hitler? Those being killed, imprisoned, or subjugated should have emancipated themselves, as you put it? |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Please Ron, don't blow this whole thing out of proportion. I never intended for this to shift to World War II anyway. I am not defending Hitler and the vindictive acts he performed. What he did will forever be regarded as infamous and destructive, and far beyond the edge of the map of my creed. However, yes, I believe emancipatig yourself plays a major role. To live your whole life and expect someone to always do something for you or save you is unhealthy. We're considered the so-called "police of the world", right? More countries certainly are praying they'll be reached out to in any certain extent, but we're spending all our time and over $100 billion in Iraq solely. What would you say if you were living in another trouble place in the world right now? Certainly you'd feel the whole situation is a lost cause, and you know you have to free yourself and your loved ones in the painful realization no one may come to your rescue anytime soon. I decry what Hitler, terrorists and warmongers did and do, but I am also not going to participate in the charades of war. Blast me all you want on "not saving the world" and all by not supporting or participating in war, but don't forget what Thomas Jefferson said; war is as much a punishment to the punisher as it is to the sufferer. Living your whole life in hindsight is a form of procrastination too, don't forget. Expecting things to even out after each situation is not the equivalent of letting nature run her course. You've got to take it to heart too. We all choose different approaches to that, and I choose the non-violent approach. I peacefully observe while doing my part in my community to hope these repercussions don't happen again. That is how I act. I don't believe in war, and that also means I don't engage in war. Simple as that. I denounced what Hitler and Saddam did, but will have nothing to do with the battle. I support simply by praying and honoring my best of wishes. I support our troops simply by praying and giving them my best of wishes, nothing more is necessary. Everyone has their cheerleaders. I am simply an unpatriotic cheerleader, yet possess a love for all the children of the world and the defending of peace in its original fashion. And I am proud to be here! Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you But if the bright lights don't receive you You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20 |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Noah, there is nothing unpatriotic in defending peace. There is, however, something decidingly illogical in contradictory absolutes. You can't be glad Hitler was thwarted and simultaneously condemn the war that was the only way we had to thwart him. Deep down, I think you even know that. So, you dance around it with, "World War II I hardly even consider a war," and, "It was not war that freed the slaves, it was the afterglow of reconciliation that did so." You are loathe to admit that war, sometimes, is necessary if peace-loving people are to live in peace. So, you rationalize. Trouble is, rationalization is just another word for dishonesty. You're going to tell us that WWII wasn't even a war and expect us to believe anything you say after that? All of the good points you make -- and there are many good points you make, Noah -- are watered down and made ineffective by the lies you have told yourself. Absolutes are incredibly easy to adopt because they require little thought and no hard choices. The reality, however, is that Love does require thought and is absolutely rife with difficult choices. Jefferson knew that. He knew that war never hurts just one side, that it always comes at a tremendous, burdensome price for everyone. Yet, he loved freedom so much that he signed his name to a document that could only result in war. He made a choice, because he knew that Love always requires choices. I hope you continue to argue for peace, Noah. We all need cheerleaders like you. If you are to do it effectively, however, you're going to have to stop dancing around your own Absolutes and start facing the issues honestly. You're going to have make painful choices. You're going to have to find the courage to reconcile conflicting issues. Until you can do that, you won't convince anyone of anything. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Amen to that! Of course I wouldn't consider it lying to myself. Don't we all rationalize? In fact, I think we rationalize most when we don't even want to. The only time it becomes dishonest is when you do so too much and lose sight of ideology or reflexive thinking. At times I feel I'm too ideological. Then again, many of our current politicians are. No real lies here, just innocence and guilt, perhaps more likely amalgamated together on the same palette. Finally, I say, there's nothing "necessary" about war, and it isn't inevitable. We are all masoners and seamstresses makin up the tapestry of life, and we are capable and responsible of the grand design of things. I can agree war is something chemical that we can all be capable of conjuring, as are all other emotions and ideologies. Therefore, we can tend to the seams and surely I believe World War III, etc. is capable of being prevented, and isn't deemed necessary. We simply must educate the children together, pray they become immune enough to peer pressure, and if the ebb runs smoothly, which it'll take much time to do but we can accomplish this, the name of freedom becomes familiar by both definition and spiritual state. This was indeed a great discussion! I am sure some other members, perhaps some from Philosophy 101, would be delighted to add on! Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you But if the bright lights don't receive you You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20 |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
Ron i don not INTENTIONALLY poke people with sticks..it is just how it comes out in my words..maybe my words are a little barbed at times..but i am just saying the things as i undertstand them to be in my country.....i dont set out to upset...i just say what has been reported here..maybe you are not as used to the kind of open reporting that i am...and that is why it comes across as it does...you know i said i would keep it peacefull and happy...maybe i should stay out of these areas ..i just always seem to get into trouble when trying to put my point over..again if i upset anyone i appolgies...i will stick to writing poetry in future... Have a happy week and great weekend everybody.. Goldenrose. ''There is no need for temples, no need for complicated Philosophies. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I personaly have no problem with how you're expressing yourself, Goldenrose! I tend to think sometimes the tone of ones comments varies according to the reader. So everyonedoes indeed have to have an open mind and sensitivity when broadening some sort of concern, but I didn't feel any sting to your comments. I really don't consider your "deserter" comment to be inflammatory, for instance. Your prime minister may indeed be a stubborn man, but a majority of your people opposed the war fervently and quite possibly the Bush Administration. When a majority feels this way, I think it is fair to have "deserter" among the choice of words. Here, it's probably more unfair, though more and more are exressing doubt and fear and criticism to Bush than ever before. Come 2005, I bet there's a likely chance Blair will be removed from office the way your people have felt in light of the war, etc. Name-calling certainly doesn't accomplish anything (I think we all do it anyway) but the way you've done so I think is relevant at least. I guess what Ron was trying to say is some are more sentimental when names are thrown around, and the impression many get can undoubtedly sound inflammatory, and it can be dangerous. So I'm assuming what he's saying is voices carry, and sometimes can scream in another's ears as if it were intentional (and indeed, quite often it is intentional) so we're better off being careful about the choice of dialogue. To a fair extent I agree with Ron, as you see all the time politicians saying off the mike comments that others hear and they become CNN and BCC staples within 12 hours. Natalie Maines made a succinct criticism of Bush that immediately scarred their future hopes for country radio airplay. Name calling CAN hurt you, and though I don't think your specific criticism was inflamatory, I truly think Ron is also just trying to help you in avoiding a backfire like the examples I said. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
If you call a politician a blithering idiot, it's inflammatory but at least it's clearly understood to be an opinion expressed as hyperbole. If you call any man, politician or otherwise, a deserter and state it as fact, you damn well better be able to substantiate it. Suppositions expressed as facts, with nothing offered to support or justify them, exist for no other purpose than to incite a response. That's not discussion, it's just baiting. On a web site dedicated to writing, those who don't know how to express themselves and are unwilling or unable to learn will often find themselves at a disadvantage. As writers, I expect everyone to know the effect their words will have on others, and will continue to hold them responsible for what they say. "I don't know another way to say it," to me, just means they're on the wrong web site. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
I'm very very sorry, and I'd like to apologize to all of you, this is a subject on which I should not have touched on. I apologize to all of you, and didn't mean to start a war here...this was very irresponsible on my part. I'm not afraid to voice my opinion...many who know me, know that about me, but in the same, I want to hear everyone's thoughts, and my curiousity has I'm afraid caused some bad feelings here. I have learned and I'm sorry. |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
Noah- Although we have NEVER agreed on anything in these discussion, I have always read your thoughts, and have been interested in what you had to say about things and your view of the world, as naive as I believe some of them are. There is one little matter that I have to take up with you, though as far as this thread is concerned... You stated: I also absolutely agree Bush stole the presidency in a deliberate fashion... Furthermore, ALL Americans know Al Gore really won the presidency by 540,000 votes. This just a simple case of believing what others haev told you and not giving the issue the due dilligence it deserves before making any comments on it. There were a minimum of four recounts and in ALL of them (or maybe not all, since you seem to have specific numbers) the sitting President won the votes. As late as this past year, there was a college class who was given an assignment by their proffessor to do a re-count and to determine who the final winner was. They were to discover once and for all if the election was "stolen" or did Governor Bush win it outright. And they came up with the same results that almost everyone else came up with. As for ALL Americans knowing that??? I don't know that. So, would that make me not an American? I have friends who are on the left side of the isle (literally) who believe that Governor Bush (much to their chagrin) did nothing wrong when he changed job titles. Would they be considered notAmerican? We have members of the blue pages who have been un harm's way and who have bled because their country told them to do so and they listened. A few of them believe that George Bush did nothing wrong, and that he legitimately won the election. According to your own words, these men are not Americans. Noah, my friend, I do not understand that at all. Lee J- NEVER apologize. This discussion is happening in other threads around the site that you had nothing to do with. What you are seeing is not a war, rather, Americans (and others) excersizing their First Amendment rights. Democracy in action, if you will. I also have a question for you. Something I missed the first time I read your intro: I was very moved with Golden Rose’s tribute to all the men who have lost their lives fighting for the very things we lack in this country today What did people lose their life for that we lack? I missed GoldenRose's post to which you refer, however I flat do NOT understand this. An explaination, please? Also, you make a comment about sticking together for the sake of morals and not the dollar... A few things that aren't mentioned, however are being posted in the news (so the words are not mine): The Russians, French, and Germans were against the coalition from the beginning, and did everything they could to prevent this war from happening. The even attempted to sue us in international court to prevent it. HOWEVER the minute things were starting to get good and the United States was pumping out HUINDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars to re-build the country of Iraq (hospitals, schools, water systems, roads, etc) they were the first ones to offer a glad hand in the spirit of international cooperation. How could this have been done for the "almighty Dollar" if we are SPENDING the dollars and other countries are taking them? If I misunderstood you, then I apologise... it won't have been the first time I did, however I flat don't get your thinking on this. Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again... |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
Ringo..Some of the votes for Bush were from ''overseas'' Americans..the military etc...and they arrived TOO LATE to be counted and yet they WERE counted..there was a cut off date and yet they still allowed the votes to stand..and what about all the poeple who were eligable to vote in Florida?..You know the blacks and hispanics that Bush's brother Jeb did not allow to vote?..who prevented known felons and people who's name SOUNDED like a known felons from voting?....this is not democracy however you dress it up..wake up and realise that there is NO SUCH THING as democracy in either the UK or America so stop trying to foist YOUR kind of democracy on the rest of the world..i see you dont try to do that to countries like China..because you know you would LOSE everywhere with them...you only pick on weaker and easier targets.... Goldenrose. ''There is no need for temples, no need for complicated Philosophies. My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness''- Dalai Lama |
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Michelle_loves_Mike
since 2003-12-20
Posts 1189Pennsylvania |
Always seems to me, that, Ringo adresses his feelings on all subjects equally, I don't feel he "picks on the weaker"ones. Attack Chinas "Democracy"? Why,,,he doesn't live there,,,altho, he does like Chinese food....... Michelle I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
quote: Philip, [GR] I would really like to see where this information came from. I live in the States, and of all the news that permeates my house, this is the first time I've seen that particular comment. Can you give a site where you read this, or a news channel, commentator, or source from which this information was gleaned? Thank you. |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
The source of my information Sunshine is clearly written in your fellow american Michael Moore's book ''Stupid White Men''..take a look and be prepared for a surprise....he is a man that dares to question....he outlines exactly where Bush did his work in Florida..and by the way..Jeb Bush is already trying to prevent people in Florida from voting this time...and he looks like he will get away with it again....if you want me to i can also provide you with other information about Bush and all of his Government and all of their shady past too... you only have to say the word and i will print it on here for you...do you want to put it on K? Goldenrose ''There is no need for temples, no need for complicated Philosophies. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Well, there you have it. You may take Michael Moore, and keep him on your shores. Type in "Michael Moore, truth and lies" in Google, and you get 223,000 sites upon which to visit. Type in "Michael Moore, facts" and you get 487,000 hits. Without going through each and every single one, I believe I would find that his lies outweigh his truths. Tell you what, Philip. I won't get into the heave-ho of whom I consider not only a non-American, no matter where he banks his paycheck, but I will go one step further to say that I truly believe this being to be not only mercenary, but a treasonous one as well. I only hope that should he deign to give up his citizenship and move to your area of the world, he won't attempt to exploit yours as he has done to ours. The sad thing is, he probably will. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
What's this? shaking my head here... "stupid white men?" I googled this looking for names...  |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Criticizing the government isn't treasonous, Karilea. Refusing to acknowledge someone's right to do so, however, probably should be. Sigh. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
I didn't refuse his right to do so, Ron. I said, it's my belief. When someone takes a splinter of truth and parlays it as Mr. Moore has done, I can't see the good of it, but I can see the harm of it. It's my belief that this man would sell out his country. In my eyes, he has done so. It's a personal belief. I didn't say it was fact. But I think a lot of people are buying into him, and believing it to be fact. Treason: quote:[Emphasis added][Source: Dictionary.com] GR answered my question. I thank him for that, and I thank you, Ron, for letting me share my thoughts. 'Nuff said. I bow out. Thanks. |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
You say that Micahel Moore is treasonous Kariliea..i dont think that the poeple at the Cannes film festival that gave his new film a twenty minute standing ovation thought he was treasonous either....here is just a few things that he has outlined about the present sitting president and his government too..... This is from Micahel's book mentioned earlier.. '' In the summer of 1999 Katherine Harris, was George Bush's presidential campain cochairwoman AND Floirda secretary of state in charge of elections, paid $4 million dollars to Database Technologies to go through Florida's voter rolls and remove anyone ''suspected'' of being a former felon.She did so with the blessing of the govenor of Florida, george W'S brother Jeb Bush-who's own wife was caught by immigration officials trying to sneak $19,000 worth of jewelry into the country without declaring and paying tax on it..a felony in its own right.But hey this is America.We dont prosecute felons if they are rich or married to a governing Bush. The law states that ex-felons cannot vote in Florida.That means the 31% of ALL black men in Florida are prohibited from voting because they have a felony on their record.Harris and Bush knew that removing the names of ex-felons from the voter rolls would keep thousands of Black citizens out of the voting booth. Black Floridians, overwhelmingly, are Demorcrats-and sure enough, Al Gore recieved the votes of more than 90% of them on November 7, 2000.That is 90% of those who were ALLOWED to vote. In what appears to be mass fraud commited by the state of Florida, Bush,Harris and company not only removed thousands of Black felons from the rolls, they also removed thousands of Black citizens WHO HAD NEVER COMMITED A CRIME IN THEIR LIVES-along with thousands of other voters who had commited only misdemeanours. How did this happen? Harris's office told Database- a firm with strong Republican ties-to cast as wide a net as possible to get rid of these voters.Her minions instructed the companty to include even people with ''similar'' names to those of actual felons.They insisted that Database check peoeple with the same brithdates as known felons, or similar Social Security numbers; and 80% match of relevant information, the election office instructed, was sufficient for Database to add a voter to the ineligible list. These orders were shocking, even to Bush-friendly Database. They would mean thousands of legitimate voters might be barred from voting on Election Day just beacuse they had a name that sounded like someone else's, or shared a birthday with some unknown bank robber.Marlene Thorogood, the Data base project manager, sent an email to Emmet''Bucky'' Mitchell, a lawyer for Katherine Harris's election division, warning him that '' Unfortunately, programming in this fashion may supply you with false positives'', or misidendications. Never mind that, said ol'Bucky.His responce ''Obviously, we want to capture more names that possibly aren't matches and let[county election] supervisors make a final determination rather than exclude certain matches''. Database did as they were told.And before long 173,000 registered voters in Florida were permanently wiped off the voter rolls.In Miami-Dade, Florida's largest county, 66% of the voters who were removed were Black.In Tampa's county, 54 % of those who would be denied the right to vote on movember 7, 200 were Black. But culling names from Florida's records alone was not enough for Harris and her department.Eight thousand additional Floridians were thrown off the voting rolls beacuse Database used a false list supplied bty another state, a state which claimed that all the names on the list were former convicted felons who had since moved to Florida. It turns out that the felons on the list had served their time and had all their voting privaleges were reinstated.And there were others on the list who had commited only misdemeanours-such as parking violations or littering.What state offered Jeb and George a helping hand by sending the bogus list to Florida? TEXAS. This entire incident stunk to high heavens, but the American media ignored it. It took the British Broadcasting Corporation to dig deep into this story, running fifteen- minute segments on it's prime time news program revealing all the sordid details and laying responsiblity at the doorstep of Jeb Bush.It's a sad day when we have to look to a country 5,000 miles away to find out the truth about our own elections.(Eventually the LOS ANGELES TIMES and the WASHINGTON POST picked up the story, but it recieved little attention.) Linda Howell recieved a letter informing her that she was a felon- and therefore advising her not to bother showing up on Election Day, beacuse she would be barred from voting.The only problem was Linda Howell wasn't a felon- in fact she was the Elections Supervisor of Madison County Florida. She tried to rectify this problem, but hers and others pleas fell on deaf ears. On November 7, 2000 as Black Floridians flocked to the polls many were met at the ballot box with a blunt rebuke:''You cannot vote''. Polling locations were heavily fortified with police to block anyone on Katherine and Jeb's ''felons list'' from voting.Hundreds of law abiding ciitzens looking to exercise their constitutional right to vote, mostly in Black and Hispanic communities were sent away-and threatened with arrest if they protested. George W Bush would officially be credited with recieving 537 more votes than Al Gore in Florida. Is it safe to assume that the thousands of registered Black and Hispanic voters barred from the polls might have made the difference if they had been allowed to vote- and cost Bush the Election? Without a doubt. On election night, after the polls closed, there was much confusion over what was happening with the counting of the votes in Florida.Finally a decision was made by the man in charge of the Election night desk for the Fox News Channel. He decided that Fox should go on the air and declare that Bush had won Florida and thus the election.Fox formally declared Bush the winner.But down in Tallahasse, the counting of the votes had not yet been completed : in fact, the Associated Press insisted it was still too close to call, and refused to follow Fox's lead, but the other news teams followed Fox like lemmings and declared bush the winner'' This is why Bush should not be sitting where he is today and Al Gore should be in the Oval office right now... But that is democracy for you....even when Gore won he still lost....but i expect the same thing as this to be happening at any time in the Uk....but i dont think the news teams would allow this and smell a rat before it happened... ..this is just known facts about the last US Election...lets hope it will not happen in the coming elections..but you know what?...Jeb Bush has already began to eliminate voters from the list..he surely couldnt get away with it again could he?... Peace and love..may everyone at PIP have a great weekend... Goldenrose. ''There is no need for temples, no need for complicated Philosophies. My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness''- Dalai Lama |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Thank you for the additional input, Philip. You have a good weekend, as well. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: While certainly not treasonous, this is the kind of garbage reasoning that completely pollutes any attempts at real discussion. Let's examine just this small part of the text for what is really being said. 1.) There's an implied conflict of interest, even though the small and somewhat incestuous nature of politics makes Katherine Harris's dual positions more than common. There's certainly nothing offered to substantiate why one position would be in conflict with the other. 2.) There's an implication that Database Technologies should, perhaps, have fulfilled their contract for less, or perhaps, for free, with no discussion as to why the four million dollars is even mentioned. 3.) The crux of the paragraph is removing felons from the voter rolls, of course, with apparently no mention that 49 other states do exactly the same thing. Felons lose their right to vote throughout this country. What makes this really silly, however, is the unspoken and unsupported implication that removing felons necessarily helped one candidate over the other. What, did Gore campaign more heavily in the prisons than did Bush? Later in the text, in parts I'm not quoting, the author tries to justify why felons might be more likely to vote for Gore, based on race, but without substantiation and really without any merit. If 31% of all black men in Florida have felony convictions, that's a serious problem but one not exactly tied to the election. Regardless of race, felons needed to be removed, not just in Florida but in all states. The false positive the author cites should certainly be avoided, but that has nothing to do with the election either. Matching birthdays or social security numbers isn't exactly going to target black Democrats. Was Linda Howell, the Elections Supervisor in Madison County, black? Did she intend to vote for Bush? Strangely enough, the author doesn't seem to consider that worth exploring. 4.) Not content to say nothing of relevance about voter registrations, the author has to throw in some unsupported trivia about a politician's wife that has no obvious bearing on registrations at all? Quickly followed by a barb on the justice system? I'm a little surprised the author didn't blame Bush for the O.J. trial while he was at it. While I'm hardly a fan of Bush, this kind of blatant yellow journalism is, frankly, just plain offensive and insults the intelligence of anyone willing to actually think for themselves. The scary part, of course, is the number of people who apparently don't feel insulted. The bottom line is that it matters not one twit what happened in Florida. There was contention, for whatever reason, and due process took it before the Courts. The same thing happens every day with contract disputes, speeding tickets, divorces, and yea, journalists who want to be protected by the Constitution. If Gore lost, it was because he failed to adequately present a case before impartial judges that could be ruled in his favor. No one is required to like the decision that was reached, but no one can call it illegal. The process ultimately worked exactly as it was mandated within the law to work. |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
I think the point he was trying to make in part 4 was that Bush's wife SHOULD have been convicted of the Jewelry customs incident...and therefore by definition NOT be allowed to vote in the election because she had a felony against her name..but BECAUSE she was the govenors wife all charges were dropped against her..thus allowing her to vote....where as on the other hand ORDINARY people who had a felony for something as petty as littering and parking violations were stopped from voting..well i dont call that very fair...but as i say i didint write it and all of the facts in this case can be proved and sourced from Michael's book.... The best of the weekend to everybody ..i am finnished with this stimulatingly interesting topic thank you everyone... Goldenrose. ''There is no need for temples, no need for complicated Philosophies. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Philip, we don't convict people on so little information as presented here, so it's a bit inappropriate to conclude someone "should" be convicted either. I don't know the specifics, but generally our laws recognize a significant difference between failure to pay a tax and actual tax evasion. The former typically results in a stiff fine being tacked onto the original tax, and only the latter results in a felony conviction. Do you know what actually happened? Or are you just letting Moore draw all your conclusions for you? p.s. Littering and parking violations don't constitute felonies, either. |
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Obscurity Member
since 2003-12-04
Posts 153In A Melancholic Dream |
I really didn't read all the posts here (that's alot of reading if I did :-P), but from I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong here, everyone is debating the general struggles of American Society against American Foreign Policy? Before I really go into alot of debating (which I've become completely tired on), I'll say a few things about people that I've been debating against, if you will. In the last about 2 months or so, I've had to justify every single one of my beliefs. My morals, my principles and my spiritual beliefs have become tarnished and tainted by people who claim to be open minded. While I'm sure many of you here are much beyond personal attacks, that's the type of pain I've had to endure especially on a very emotional basis. Those are my beliefs, and I continuelly try to respect others, but I've been attacked by other individuals so much that I've had to defend my every belief in my Religion, Government and Ideals. I know this probably doesn't mean anything, to anyone of you, but I would like to know that how it comes to be where a society of educated individuals turn so low to attack personal beliefs? How is it, that a society with energy cannot put their minds to help solve something they don't believe in, rather then continuelly attack the others that do? It's absurd, it's disrespectful and it's extremely damaging to people who have different beliefs. I really question the true principles of the 80's generation. I am 18 years old, I am from the 80's, but my principles stay loyal and true, it seems to me most of the 80's generation sway as much as a boat in choppy waters. What is worse is that there must be a justification for every single action. There is no need for anyone in life to justify their decisions, but where the wind blows the boat sways. I want to show you one justification, that Senator John Kerry used, and which many democrats/liberals use, and then another part that all the media has left out. The War in Iraq (which I have been talking about this whole time, btw). Senator Kerry, voted for the war in Iraq. Then justified his vote, and switching sides on the views of Iraq by saying he was decieved. Well, if you look up John Kerry's reports in the Senate you'll see multiple times where he's told the Vice President (Head of the Senate) about the threat of Iraq, prior to even 9/11 attacks. There is one report that says that all intellegience and evidence prove that Iraq is rebuilding their Chemical and Biological Warfare arsenal, signed John Kerry. This is what I don't understand. Previous reports by many people outside of all intellegience agencies wrote reports to Clinton and Bush affirming that Iraq was violating the UN Resolution. Eh, I really shouldn't get involved with this so I'll stop right there. I just want to know, why people that are 'open minded' and claim to be 'helping the world' attack individuals with difference of opinions, and how does it prove to me that they are any better then I? To me, it seems like they sit on a thrown, it doesn't matter though because I hold the sword. One last thing, clearly as you can tell I'm rather conservative and I believe in the US Governments actions with Iraq. My entire family was/is military. I signed my contract with the United States Marine Corps 5-6 weeks ago, my ship-date is December 6th. I believe in one thing above everything else... Life, Liberty and The Pursuit Of Happiness Not just for Americans, but for all people around the world. So I guess what I'm really trying to ask in this, is why is it that my principles could be attacked, but their's couldn't? PS: This was not referring to any member of Pip PSS: RIP President Reagan "White Trash Beautiful, There's something you should know |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: quote: There's a big difference between having your belief system "attacked" and being asked to defend it. If you can't adequately justify every single one of your beliefs, at least to yourself if no one else, you really should be asking yourself why. A belief left unexamined is simply a prejudice. |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
In the last about 2 months or so, I've had to justify every single one of my beliefs. If you have only had to justify your beliefs for the past two months, then consider yourself among the lucky. AS you grow further into your adulthood, you will be called upon to defend and to justify your beliefs more and more... ESPECIALLY in the Marine Corps. You are about to find your beliefs tested, and attacked day after day... and you will be forced to justify them every single day of your existence. Get used to it. My morals, my principles and my spiritual beliefs have become tarnished and tainted by people who claim to be open minded They can only be tarnished if you allow them to be. You should have the faith of your convictions, and you should have the ability to keep them strong and sparkling in your mind, anyhow. I really question the true principles of the 80's generation...it seems to me most of the 80's generation sway as much as a boat in choppy waters Now, I am confused... what do you consider the 80's generation??? Is it the kids that were norn during the 80's and have no real clue what the 80's was truly about, or those that actually survived and shaped the 80's? If you are considering the citizens, such as yourself, who are teenagers, and weere born during the 80's, then to be suprised that kids just starting to find their way in the world changing thier minds constantly is somewhat naive. To make that claim of those who were there during the 80's is being a bit... I don't know... placing everyone into the same grouping is in need of justification. There are too many people on here that I know about my same age (children of the 80's) who are extremely set in their beliefs. Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again... |
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Obscurity Member
since 2003-12-04
Posts 153In A Melancholic Dream |
If you have only had to justify your beliefs for the past two months, then consider yourself among the lucky. AS you grow further into your adulthood, you will be called upon to defend and to justify your beliefs more and more... ESPECIALLY in the Marine Corps. You are about to find your beliefs tested, and attacked day after day... and you will be forced to justify them every single day of your existence. Get used to it. There is the difference between defining your beliefs, and having to justify them. Because any individual in life, should have the ability to believe in what they choose to believe in. And not one individual should ridicule others for their beliefs. Well hell, if we're gonna ridicule others lets just start putting them in internment camps while we're at it. As per Marine Corps, you're beliefs aren't defined for justification. Why? Because, espcially the Marine Corps, define themselves on the sole purpose to honor and serve for the United States, and it's principles. The United States, has a set of principle that protects individuals beliefs from persecution on a 'government' level. Honestly Ringo, no one in the world should have to justify what they believe in - it's wrong. You could believe that you are the child of a Jedi Warrior, and you may truely believe that. But, it's not anyones place to make you justify why you believe that. One mans beliefs are held just as equal as the next man. They can only be tarnished if you allow them to be. You should have the faith of your convictions, and you should have the ability to keep them strong and sparkling in your mind, anyhow. Does that mean the Jews in 30/40's Europe let their beliefs be tarnished? They let the 3rd Reich tarnish their moral and spiritual principles? No, because you cannot allow your beliefs to be tarnished. They are your own, but that does not mean that another person cannot attack them. It's a pathetic society of clouds that we all live in, scarred by fear. But with fear you have the production of anger, and it is a pity that I must live in a world swallowed by fear. Now, I am confused... what do you consider the 80's generation??? Is it the kids that were norn during the 80's and have no real clue what the 80's was truly about, or those that actually survived and shaped the 80's? If you are considering the citizens, such as yourself, who are teenagers, and weere born during the 80's, then to be suprised that kids just starting to find their way in the world changing thier minds constantly is somewhat naive. To make that claim of those who were there during the 80's is being a bit... I don't know... placing everyone into the same grouping is in need of justification. There are too many people on here that I know about my same age (children of the 80's) who are extremely set in their beliefs. I was referring to individuals born in the 80's, not individuals that went through the trauma of the 80's. I shouldn't have stereotyped the entire 80's generation, but I will say that a lot of the 80's generation that I know are extremely shifty in their views of the world. And really I think it all revolves around social standards as a parent, and a child of the 80's generation. I really encourage you to look into the Stanley Milgram expirement of Authoritian Rule. It's really the basis of a standard on society where something 'cool' happens, and others follow. It is such an interesting expirement, and I truely believe that it explains how a lot of the second half of the 1900's behaved. Now where this really evolves into our society, is that our social programming has been so skewed from the 60's (Well, the 60's is just my opinion) that our social standards have degraded. Please read it, it's such an interesting expirement. Rob: No one should ever have to justify their beliefs. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Well, I choose to believe every man, and certainly every writer, should be able to articulate why they believe as they do. And, you'll just have to accept that, without all the complaining I'm seeing, because after all, you believe I have the right to believe that without justifying it. Ironic, ain't it? |
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Obscurity Member
since 2003-12-04
Posts 153In A Melancholic Dream |
You most certainly do have the right to believe that, but I believe that no individual should have to justify their beliefs. I'm not a writer, I'm not even that much of a Poet (My work really sucks, lol)... Alas we come to a stalemate ~.~ And that's how life really should be, at least on a personal level, it's pretty different on a world affair level. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Not really. My belief allows me to continue asking questions and finding answers. Yours simply shuts down communication and stands in the way of greater understanding. When you don't allow yourself to ever ask "why?" you don't allow yourself to ever grow. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Well said Ron, I agree totally, it is through listening that we learn, just b/c we're adults doesn't mean we know all their is to know...matter of fact, if we adopt that falicy, we will shut down and stagnate. Life is all about the differences coming together and molding energy...hope, the blend of indifference, learning to offer opinions and open up to suggestions. When we learn to listen, maybe then things will start to change. Detach emotions, and think with realistic fairness. |
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