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Passions in Poetry

In the Name of Freedom? For This Diamond & Goldenrose and

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Ron
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25 posted 05-20-2004 01:54 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Noah, there is nothing unpatriotic in defending peace. There is, however, something decidingly illogical in contradictory absolutes. You can't be glad Hitler was thwarted and simultaneously condemn the war that was the only way we had to thwart him. Deep down, I think you even know that. So, you dance around it with, "World War II I hardly even consider a war," and, "It was not war that freed the slaves, it was the afterglow of reconciliation that did so."

You are loathe to admit that war, sometimes, is necessary if peace-loving people are to live in peace. So, you rationalize. Trouble is, rationalization is just another word for dishonesty. You're going to tell us that WWII wasn't even a war and expect us to believe anything you say after that? All of the good points you make -- and there are many good points you make, Noah -- are watered down and made ineffective by the lies you have told yourself.

Absolutes are incredibly easy to adopt because they require little thought and no hard choices. The reality, however, is that Love does require thought and is absolutely rife with difficult choices. Jefferson knew that. He knew that war never hurts just one side, that it always comes at a tremendous, burdensome price for everyone. Yet, he loved freedom so much that he signed his name to a document that could only result in war. He made a choice, because he knew that Love always requires choices.

I hope you continue to argue for peace, Noah. We all need cheerleaders like you. If you are to do it effectively, however, you're going to have to stop dancing around your own Absolutes and start facing the issues honestly. You're going to have make painful choices. You're going to have to find the courage to reconcile conflicting issues. Until you can do that, you won't convince anyone of anything.
Mistletoe Angel
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26 posted 05-20-2004 03:16 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Amen to that!

Of course I wouldn't consider it lying to myself. Don't we all rationalize? In fact, I think we rationalize most when we don't even want to. The only time it becomes dishonest is when you do so too much and lose sight of ideology or reflexive thinking. At times I feel I'm too ideological. Then again, many of our current politicians are. No real lies here, just innocence and guilt, perhaps more likely amalgamated together on the same palette.

Finally, I say, there's nothing "necessary" about war, and it isn't inevitable. We are all masoners and seamstresses makin up the tapestry of life, and we are capable and responsible of the grand design of things. I can agree war is something chemical that we can all be capable of conjuring, as are all other emotions and ideologies. Therefore, we can tend to the seams and surely I believe World War III, etc. is capable of being prevented, and isn't deemed necessary. We simply must educate the children together, pray they become immune enough to peer pressure, and if the ebb runs smoothly, which it'll take much time to do but we can accomplish this, the name of freedom becomes familiar by both definition and spiritual state.

This was indeed a great discussion! I am sure some other members, perhaps some from Philosophy 101, would be delighted to add on!

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton



"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20
Goldenrose
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27 posted 05-20-2004 05:02 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

Ron i don not INTENTIONALLY poke people with sticks..it is just how it comes out in my words..maybe my words are a little barbed at  times..but i am just saying the things as i undertstand them to be in my country.....i dont set out to upset...i just say what has been reported here..maybe you are not as used to the kind of open reporting that i am...and that is why it comes across as it does...you know i said i would keep it peacefull and happy...maybe i should stay out of these areas ..i just always seem to get into trouble when trying to put my point over..again if i upset anyone i appolgies...i will stick to writing poetry in future...

Have a happy week and great weekend everybody..


Goldenrose.

''There is no need for temples, no need for complicated Philosophies.
My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness''-  Dalai Lama

Mistletoe Angel
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28 posted 05-20-2004 03:37 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



I personaly have no problem with how you're expressing yourself, Goldenrose! I tend to think sometimes the tone of ones comments varies according to the reader. So everyonedoes indeed have to have an open mind and sensitivity when broadening some sort of concern, but I didn't feel any sting to your comments.



I really don't consider your "deserter" comment to be inflammatory, for instance. Your prime minister may indeed be a stubborn man, but a majority of your people opposed the war fervently and quite possibly the Bush Administration. When a majority feels this way, I think it is fair to have "deserter" among the choice of words. Here, it's probably more unfair, though more and more are exressing doubt and fear and criticism to Bush than ever before. Come 2005, I bet there's a likely chance Blair will be removed from office the way your people have felt in light of the war, etc.



Name-calling certainly doesn't accomplish anything (I think we all do it anyway) but the way you've done so I think is relevant at least. I guess what Ron was trying to say is some are more sentimental when names are thrown around, and the impression many get can undoubtedly sound inflammatory, and it can be dangerous. So I'm assuming what he's saying is voices carry, and sometimes can scream in another's ears as if it were intentional (and indeed, quite often it is intentional) so we're better off being careful about the choice of dialogue. To a fair extent I agree with Ron, as you see all the time politicians saying off the mike comments that others hear and they become CNN and BCC staples within 12 hours. Natalie Maines made a succinct criticism of Bush that immediately scarred their future hopes for country radio airplay. Name calling CAN hurt you, and though I don't think your specific criticism was inflamatory, I truly think Ron is also just trying to help you in avoiding a backfire like the examples I said.



Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

Ron
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29 posted 05-20-2004 05:47 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

If you call a politician a blithering idiot, it's inflammatory but at least it's clearly understood to be an opinion expressed as hyperbole. If you call any man, politician or otherwise, a deserter and state it as fact, you damn well better be able to substantiate it. Suppositions expressed as facts, with nothing offered to support or justify them, exist for no other purpose than to incite a response. That's not discussion, it's just baiting.

On a web site dedicated to writing, those who don't know how to express themselves and are unwilling or unable to learn will often find themselves at a disadvantage. As writers, I expect everyone to know the effect their words will have on others, and will continue to hold them responsible for what they say. "I don't know another way to say it," to me, just means they're on the wrong web site.


LeeJ
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30 posted 05-25-2004 03:28 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

I'm very very sorry, and I'd like to apologize to all of you, this is a subject on which I should not have touched on.  

I apologize to all of you, and didn't mean to start a war here...this was very irresponsible on my part.  I'm not afraid to voice my opinion...many who know me, know that about me, but in the same, I want to hear everyone's thoughts, and my curiousity has I'm afraid caused some bad feelings here.  

I have learned and I'm sorry.

Ringo
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31 posted 05-25-2004 07:43 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Noah- Although we have NEVER agreed on anything in these discussion, I have always read your thoughts, and have been interested in what you had to say about things and your view of the world, as naive as I believe some of them are. There is one little matter that I have to take up with you, though as far as this thread is concerned...
You stated:

I also absolutely agree Bush stole the presidency in a deliberate fashion... Furthermore, ALL Americans know Al Gore really won the presidency by 540,000 votes.

This just a simple case of believing what others haev told you and not giving the issue the due dilligence it deserves before making any comments on it.

There were a minimum of four recounts and in ALL of them (or maybe not all, since you seem to have specific numbers) the sitting President won the votes. As late as this past year, there was a college class who was given an assignment by their proffessor to do a re-count and to determine who the final winner was. They were to discover once and for all if the election was "stolen" or did Governor Bush win it outright. And they came up with the same results that almost everyone else came up with.

As for ALL Americans knowing that??? I don't know that. So, would that make me not an American? I have friends who are on the left side of the isle (literally) who believe that Governor Bush (much to their chagrin) did nothing wrong when he changed job titles. Would they be considered notAmerican? We have members of the blue pages who have been un harm's way and who have bled because their country told them to do so and they listened. A few of them believe that George Bush did nothing wrong, and that he legitimately won the election. According to your own words, these men are not Americans. Noah, my friend, I do not understand that at all.

Lee J- NEVER apologize. This discussion is happening in other threads around the site that you had nothing to do with. What you are seeing is not a war, rather, Americans (and others) excersizing their First Amendment rights. Democracy in action, if you will.

I also have a question for you. Something I missed the first time I read your intro:

I was very moved with Golden Rose’s tribute to all the men who have lost their lives fighting for the very things we lack in this country today

What did people lose their life for that we lack? I missed GoldenRose's post to which you refer, however I flat do NOT understand this. An explaination, please?

Also, you make a comment about sticking together for the sake of morals and not the dollar...  A few things that aren't mentioned, however are being posted in the news (so the words are not mine):
The Russians, French, and Germans were against the coalition from the beginning, and did everything they could to prevent this war from happening. The even attempted to sue us in international court to prevent it. HOWEVER the minute things were starting to get good and the United States was pumping out HUINDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars to re-build the country of Iraq (hospitals, schools, water systems, roads, etc) they were the first ones to offer a glad hand in the spirit of international cooperation. How could this have been done for the "almighty Dollar" if we are SPENDING the dollars and other countries are taking them? If I misunderstood you, then I apologise... it won't have been the first time I did, however I flat don't get your thinking on this.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again...
http://www.cmlb.net/ringo

Goldenrose
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32 posted 05-26-2004 05:55 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

Ringo..Some of the votes for Bush were from ''overseas'' Americans..the military etc...and they arrived TOO LATE to be counted and yet they WERE counted..there was a cut off date and yet they still allowed the votes to stand..and what about all the poeple who were eligable to vote in Florida?..You know the blacks and hispanics that Bush's brother Jeb did not allow to vote?..who prevented known felons and people who's name SOUNDED like a known felons from voting?....this is not democracy however you dress it up..wake up and realise that there is NO SUCH THING as democracy in either the UK or America so stop trying to foist YOUR kind of democracy on the rest of the world..i see you dont try to do that to countries like China..because you know you would LOSE  everywhere with them...you only pick on weaker and easier targets....

Goldenrose.


''There is no need for temples, no need for complicated Philosophies.
My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness''-  Dalai Lama
Michelle_loves_Mike
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33 posted 05-26-2004 08:09 AM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

Always seems to me, that, Ringo adresses his feelings on all subjects equally, I don't feel he "picks on the weaker"ones.
Attack Chinas "Democracy"? Why,,,he doesn't live there,,,altho, he does like Chinese food.......
Michelle

I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike

Sunshine
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34 posted 05-26-2004 08:52 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

quote:
Some of the votes for Bush were from ''overseas'' Americans..the military etc...and they arrived TOO LATE to be counted and yet they WERE counted..there was a cut off date and yet they still allowed the votes to stand..and what about all the poeple who were eligable to vote in Florida?..You know the blacks and hispanics that Bush's brother Jeb did not allow to vote?..who prevented known felons and people who's name SOUNDED like a known felons from voting?....


Philip, [GR] I would really like to see where this information came from.  I live in the States, and of all the news that permeates my house, this is the first time I've seen that particular comment.  Can you give a site where you read this, or a news channel, commentator, or source from which this information was gleaned?

Thank you.
Goldenrose
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35 posted 05-27-2004 05:45 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

The source of my information Sunshine is clearly written in your fellow american Michael Moore's book ''Stupid White Men''..take a look and be prepared for a surprise....he is a man that dares to question....he outlines exactly where Bush did his work in Florida..and by the way..Jeb Bush is already trying to prevent people in Florida from voting this time...and he looks like he will get away with it again....if you want me to i can also provide you with other information about Bush and all of his Government and all of their shady past too...
you only have to say the word and i will print it on here for you...do you want to put it on K?

Goldenrose

''There is no need for temples, no need for complicated Philosophies.
My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness''-  Dalai Lama

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36 posted 05-27-2004 07:02 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Well, there you have it.  You may take Michael Moore, and keep him on your shores.  Type in "Michael Moore, truth and lies" in Google, and you get 223,000 sites upon which to visit.  Type in "Michael Moore, facts" and you get 487,000 hits.  Without going through each and every single one, I believe I would find that his lies outweigh his truths.

Tell you what, Philip.  I won't get into the heave-ho of whom I consider not only a non-American, no matter where he banks his paycheck, but I will go one step further to say that I truly believe this being to be not only mercenary, but a treasonous one as well.

I only hope that should he deign to give up his citizenship and move to your area of the world, he won't attempt to exploit yours as he has done to ours.  

The sad thing is, he probably will.
serenity blaze
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37 posted 05-27-2004 07:08 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

What's this?

shaking my head here...

"stupid white men?"

I googled this looking for names...

Ron
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38 posted 05-27-2004 07:14 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Criticizing the government isn't treasonous, Karilea. Refusing to acknowledge someone's right to do so, however, probably should be.

Sigh.
Sunshine
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39 posted 05-27-2004 08:31 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

I didn't refuse his right to do so, Ron.  I said, it's my belief.  When someone takes a splinter of truth and parlays it as Mr. Moore has done, I can't see the good of it, but I can see the harm of it.

It's my belief that this man would sell out his country.  In my eyes, he has done so.

It's a personal belief.  I didn't say it was fact.  But I think a lot of people are buying into him, and believing it to be fact.

Treason:
quote:
Loosely, the betrayal of any trust or confidence; treachery; perfidy.
[Emphasis added][Source: Dictionary.com]

GR answered my question.  I thank him for that, and I thank you, Ron, for letting me share my thoughts.

'Nuff said.  I bow out.  Thanks.
Goldenrose
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40 posted 05-28-2004 05:52 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

You say that Micahel Moore is treasonous Kariliea..i dont think that the poeple at the Cannes film festival that gave his new film a twenty minute standing ovation thought he was treasonous either....here is just a few things that he has outlined about the present sitting president and his government too.....

This is from Micahel's book mentioned earlier..

'' In the summer of 1999 Katherine Harris, was George Bush's presidential campain cochairwoman AND Floirda secretary of state in charge of elections, paid $4 million dollars to Database Technologies to go through Florida's voter rolls and remove anyone ''suspected'' of being a former felon.She did so with the blessing of the govenor of Florida, george W'S brother Jeb Bush-who's own wife was caught by immigration officials trying to sneak $19,000 worth of jewelry into the country without declaring and paying tax on it..a felony in its own right.But hey this is America.We dont prosecute felons if they are rich or married to a governing Bush.
The law states that ex-felons cannot vote in Florida.That means the 31% of ALL black men in Florida are prohibited from voting because they have a felony on their record.Harris and Bush knew that removing the names of ex-felons from the voter rolls would keep thousands of Black citizens out of the voting booth.
Black Floridians, overwhelmingly, are Demorcrats-and sure enough, Al Gore recieved the votes of more than 90% of them on November 7, 2000.That is 90% of those who were ALLOWED to vote.
In what appears to be mass fraud commited by the state of Florida, Bush,Harris and company not only removed thousands of Black felons from the rolls, they also removed thousands of Black citizens WHO HAD NEVER COMMITED A CRIME IN THEIR LIVES-along with thousands of other voters who had commited only misdemeanours.
How did this happen? Harris's office told Database- a firm with strong Republican ties-to cast as wide a net as possible to get rid of these voters.Her minions instructed the companty to include even people with ''similar'' names to those of actual felons.They insisted that Database check peoeple with the same brithdates as known felons, or similar Social Security numbers; and 80% match of relevant information, the election office instructed, was sufficient for Database to add a voter to the ineligible list.
These orders were shocking, even to Bush-friendly Database. They would mean thousands of legitimate voters might be barred from voting on Election Day just beacuse they had a name that sounded like someone else's, or shared a birthday with some unknown bank robber.Marlene Thorogood, the Data base project manager, sent an email to Emmet''Bucky'' Mitchell, a lawyer for Katherine Harris's election division, warning him that '' Unfortunately, programming in this fashion may supply you with false positives'', or misidendications.
Never mind that, said ol'Bucky.His responce ''Obviously, we want to capture more names that possibly aren't matches and let[county election] supervisors make a final determination rather than exclude certain matches''.
Database did as they were told.And before long 173,000 registered voters in Florida were permanently wiped off the voter rolls.In Miami-Dade, Florida's largest county, 66% of the voters who were removed were Black.In Tampa's county, 54 % of those who would be denied the right to vote on movember 7, 200 were Black.
But culling names from Florida's records alone was not enough for Harris and her department.Eight thousand additional Floridians were thrown off the voting rolls beacuse Database used a false list supplied bty another state, a state which claimed that all the names on the list were former convicted felons who had since moved to Florida.
It turns out that the felons on the list had served their time and had all their voting privaleges were reinstated.And there were others on the list who had commited only misdemeanours-such as parking violations or littering.What state offered Jeb and George a helping hand by sending the bogus list to Florida?  TEXAS.
This entire incident stunk to high heavens, but the American media ignored it. It took the British Broadcasting Corporation to dig deep into this story, running fifteen- minute segments on it's prime time news program revealing all the sordid details and laying responsiblity at the doorstep of Jeb Bush.It's a sad day when we have to look to a country 5,000 miles away to find out the truth about our own elections.(Eventually the LOS ANGELES TIMES and the WASHINGTON POST picked up the story, but it recieved little attention.)
Linda Howell recieved a letter informing her that she was a felon- and therefore advising her not to bother showing up on Election Day, beacuse she would be barred from voting.The only problem was Linda Howell wasn't a felon- in fact she was the Elections Supervisor of Madison County Florida. She tried to rectify this problem, but hers and others pleas fell on deaf ears.
On November 7, 2000 as Black Floridians flocked to the polls many were met at the ballot box with a blunt rebuke:''You cannot vote''. Polling locations were heavily fortified with police to block anyone on Katherine and Jeb's ''felons list'' from voting.Hundreds of law abiding ciitzens looking to exercise their constitutional right to vote, mostly in Black and Hispanic communities were sent away-and threatened with arrest if they protested.
George W Bush would officially be credited with recieving 537 more votes than Al Gore in Florida. Is it safe to assume that the thousands of registered Black and Hispanic voters barred from the polls might have made the difference if they had been allowed to vote- and cost Bush the Election? Without a doubt.

On election night, after the polls closed, there was much confusion over what was happening with the counting of the votes in Florida.Finally a decision was made by the man in charge of the Election night desk for the Fox News Channel. He decided  that Fox should go on the air and declare that Bush had won Florida and thus the election.Fox formally declared Bush the winner.But down in Tallahasse, the counting of the votes had not yet been completed : in fact, the Associated Press insisted it was still too close to call, and refused to follow Fox's lead, but the other news teams followed Fox like lemmings and declared bush the winner''

This is why Bush should not be sitting where he is today and Al Gore should be in the Oval office right now...

But that is democracy for you....even when Gore won he still lost....but i expect the same thing as this to be happening at any time in the Uk....but i dont think the news teams would allow this and smell a rat before it happened... ..this is just known facts about the last US Election...lets hope it will not happen in the coming elections..but you know what?...Jeb Bush has already began to eliminate voters from the list..he surely couldnt get away with it again could he?...

Peace and love..may everyone at PIP have a great weekend...

Goldenrose.



''There is no need for temples, no need for complicated Philosophies.
My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness''-  Dalai Lama
Sunshine
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41 posted 05-28-2004 08:24 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Thank you for the additional input, Philip.
  You have a good weekend, as well.
Ron
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42 posted 05-28-2004 09:20 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
In the summer of 1999 Katherine Harris, was George Bush's presidential campain cochairwoman AND Floirda secretary of state in charge of elections, paid $4 million dollars to Database Technologies to go through Florida's voter rolls and remove anyone ''suspected'' of being a former felon.She did so with the blessing of the govenor of Florida, george W'S brother Jeb Bush-who's own wife was caught by immigration officials trying to sneak $19,000 worth of jewelry into the country without declaring and paying tax on it..a felony in its own right.But hey this is America.We dont prosecute felons if they are rich or married to a governing Bush.

While certainly not treasonous, this is the kind of garbage reasoning that completely pollutes any attempts at real discussion. Let's examine just this small part of the text for what is really being said.

1.) There's an implied conflict of interest, even though the small and somewhat incestuous nature of politics makes Katherine Harris's dual positions more than common. There's certainly nothing offered to substantiate why one position would be in conflict with the other.

2.) There's an implication that Database Technologies should, perhaps, have fulfilled their contract for less, or perhaps, for free, with no discussion as to why the four million dollars is even mentioned.

3.) The crux of the paragraph is removing felons from the voter rolls, of course, with apparently no mention that 49 other states do exactly the same thing. Felons lose their right to vote throughout this country. What makes this really silly, however, is the unspoken and unsupported implication that removing felons necessarily helped one candidate over the other. What, did Gore campaign more heavily in the prisons than did Bush?

Later in the text, in parts I'm not quoting, the author tries to justify why felons might be more likely to vote for Gore, based on race, but without substantiation and really without any merit. If 31% of all black men in Florida have felony convictions, that's a serious problem but one not exactly tied to the election. Regardless of race, felons needed to be removed, not just in Florida but in all states. The false positive the author cites should certainly be avoided, but that has nothing to do with the election either. Matching birthdays or social security numbers isn't exactly going to target black Democrats. Was Linda Howell, the Elections Supervisor in Madison County, black? Did she intend to vote for Bush? Strangely enough, the author doesn't seem to consider that worth exploring.

4.) Not content to say nothing of relevance about voter registrations, the author has to throw in some unsupported trivia about a politician's wife that has no obvious bearing on registrations at all? Quickly followed by a barb on the justice system? I'm a little surprised the author didn't blame Bush for the O.J. trial while he was at it.

While I'm hardly a fan of Bush, this kind of blatant yellow journalism is, frankly, just plain offensive and insults the intelligence of anyone willing to actually think for themselves. The scary part, of course, is the number of people who apparently don't feel insulted.

The bottom line is that it matters not one twit what happened in Florida.

There was contention, for whatever reason, and due process took it before the Courts. The same thing happens every day with contract disputes, speeding tickets, divorces, and yea, journalists who want to be protected by the Constitution. If Gore lost, it was because he failed to adequately present a case before impartial judges that could be ruled in his favor. No one is required to like the decision that was reached, but no one can call it illegal. The process ultimately worked exactly as it was mandated within the law to work.


Goldenrose
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43 posted 05-29-2004 04:33 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

I think the point he was trying to make in part 4 was that Bush's wife SHOULD have been convicted of the Jewelry customs incident...and therefore by definition NOT be allowed to vote in the election because she had a felony against her name..but BECAUSE she was the govenors wife all charges were dropped against her..thus allowing her to vote....where as on the other hand ORDINARY people who had a felony for something as petty as littering and parking violations were stopped from voting..well i dont call that very fair...but as i say i didint write it and all of the facts in this case can be proved and sourced from Michael's book....

The best of the weekend to everybody ..i am finnished with this stimulatingly interesting topic thank you everyone...

Goldenrose.

''There is no need for temples, no need for complicated Philosophies.
My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness''-  Dalai Lama

Ron
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44 posted 05-29-2004 02:15 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Philip, we don't convict people on so little information as presented here, so it's a bit inappropriate to conclude someone "should" be convicted either. I don't know the specifics, but generally our laws recognize a significant difference between failure to pay a tax and actual tax evasion. The former typically results in a stiff fine being tacked onto the original tax, and only the latter results in a felony conviction. Do you know what actually happened? Or are you just letting Moore draw all your conclusions for you?

p.s. Littering and parking violations don't constitute felonies, either.
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45 posted 06-06-2004 05:16 AM       View Profile for Obscurity   Email Obscurity   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Obscurity

I really didn't read all the posts here (that's alot of reading if I did :-P), but from I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong here, everyone is debating the general struggles of American Society against American Foreign Policy?

Before I really go into alot of debating (which I've become completely tired on), I'll say a few things about people that I've been debating against, if you will. In the last about 2 months or so, I've had to justify every single one of my beliefs. My morals, my principles and my spiritual beliefs have become tarnished and tainted by people who claim to be open minded. While I'm sure many of you here are much beyond personal attacks, that's the type of pain I've had to endure especially on a very emotional basis. Those are my beliefs, and I continuelly try to respect others, but I've been attacked by other individuals so much that I've had to defend my every belief in my Religion, Government and Ideals. I know this probably doesn't mean anything, to anyone of you, but I would like to know that how it comes to be where a society of educated individuals turn so low to attack personal beliefs? How is it, that a society with energy cannot put their minds to help solve something they don't believe in, rather then continuelly attack the others that do? It's absurd, it's disrespectful and it's extremely damaging to people who have different beliefs.


I really question the true principles of the 80's generation. I am 18 years old, I am from the 80's, but my principles stay loyal and true, it seems to me most of the 80's generation sway as much as a boat in choppy waters. What is worse is that there must be a justification for every single action. There is no need for anyone in life to justify their decisions, but where the wind blows the boat sways. I want to show you one justification, that Senator John Kerry used, and which many democrats/liberals use, and then another part that all the media has left out.


The War in Iraq (which I have been talking about this whole time, btw). Senator Kerry, voted for the war in Iraq. Then justified his vote, and switching sides on the views of Iraq by saying he was decieved. Well, if you look up John Kerry's reports in the Senate you'll see multiple times where he's told the Vice President (Head of the Senate) about the threat of Iraq, prior to even 9/11 attacks. There is one report that says that all intellegience and evidence prove that Iraq is rebuilding their Chemical and Biological Warfare arsenal, signed John Kerry.

This is what I don't understand. Previous reports by many people outside of all intellegience agencies wrote reports to Clinton and Bush affirming that Iraq was violating the UN Resolution.

Eh, I really shouldn't get involved with this so I'll stop right there. I just want to know, why people that are 'open minded' and claim to be 'helping the world' attack individuals with difference of opinions, and how does it prove to me that they are any better then I? To me, it seems like they sit on a thrown, it doesn't matter though because I hold the sword.

One last thing, clearly as you can tell I'm rather conservative and I believe in the US Governments actions with Iraq. My entire family was/is military. I signed my contract with the United States Marine Corps 5-6 weeks ago, my ship-date is December 6th. I believe in one thing above everything else...

Life, Liberty and The Pursuit Of Happiness

Not just for Americans, but for all people around the world.


So I guess what I'm really trying to ask in this, is why is it that my principles could be attacked, but their's couldn't?


PS: This was not referring to any member of Pip

PSS: RIP President Reagan

"White Trash Beautiful, There's something you should know
My heart belongs to you
And you coulda found a better guy
I'll love you till the day I

Ron
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46 posted 06-06-2004 06:24 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
In the last about 2 months or so, I've had to justify every single one of my beliefs.

quote:
I just want to know, why people that are 'open minded' and claim to be 'helping the world' attack individuals with difference of opinions

There's a big difference between having your belief system "attacked" and being asked to defend it. If you can't adequately justify every single one of your beliefs, at least to yourself if no one else, you really should be asking yourself why.

A belief left unexamined is simply a prejudice.
Ringo
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47 posted 06-06-2004 11:31 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

In the last about 2 months or so, I've had to justify every single one of my beliefs.

If you have only had to justify your beliefs for the past two months, then consider yourself among the lucky. AS you grow further into your adulthood, you will be called upon to defend and to justify your beliefs more and more... ESPECIALLY in the Marine Corps. You are about to find your beliefs tested, and attacked day after day... and you will be forced to justify them every single day of your existence. Get used to it.

My morals, my principles and my spiritual beliefs have become tarnished and tainted by people who claim to be open minded
They can only be tarnished if you allow them to be. You should have the faith of your convictions, and you should have the ability to keep them strong and sparkling in your mind, anyhow.

I really question the true principles of the 80's generation...it seems to me most of the 80's generation sway as much as a boat in choppy waters
Now, I am confused... what do you consider the 80's generation??? Is it the kids that were norn during the 80's and have no real clue what the 80's was truly about, or those that actually survived and shaped the 80's? If you are considering the citizens, such as yourself, who are teenagers, and weere born during the 80's, then to be suprised that kids just starting to find their way in the world changing thier minds constantly is somewhat naive. To make that claim of those who were there during the 80's is being a bit... I don't know... placing everyone into the same grouping is in need of justification. There are too many people on here that I know about my same age (children of the 80's) who are extremely set in their beliefs.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again...
http://www.cmlb.net/ringo

Obscurity
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48 posted 06-06-2004 12:40 PM       View Profile for Obscurity   Email Obscurity   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Obscurity

If you have only had to justify your beliefs for the past two months, then consider yourself among the lucky. AS you grow further into your adulthood, you will be called upon to defend and to justify your beliefs more and more... ESPECIALLY in the Marine Corps. You are about to find your beliefs tested, and attacked day after day... and you will be forced to justify them every single day of your existence. Get used to it.

There is the difference between defining your beliefs, and having to justify them. Because any individual in life, should have the ability to believe in what they choose to believe in. And not one individual should ridicule others for their beliefs. Well hell, if we're gonna ridicule others lets just start putting them in internment camps while we're at it. As per Marine Corps, you're beliefs aren't defined for justification. Why? Because, espcially the Marine Corps, define themselves on the sole purpose to honor and serve for the United States, and it's principles. The United States, has a set of principle that protects individuals beliefs from persecution on a 'government' level. Honestly Ringo, no one in the world should have to justify what they believe in - it's wrong. You could believe that you are the child of a Jedi Warrior, and you may truely believe that. But, it's not anyones place to make you justify why you believe that. One mans beliefs are held just as equal as the next man.

They can only be tarnished if you allow them to be. You should have the faith of your convictions, and you should have the ability to keep them strong and sparkling in your mind, anyhow.

Does that mean the Jews in 30/40's Europe let their beliefs be tarnished? They let the 3rd Reich tarnish their moral and spiritual principles? No, because you cannot allow your beliefs to be tarnished. They are your own, but that does not mean that another person cannot attack them. It's a pathetic society of clouds that we all live in, scarred by fear. But with fear you have the production of anger, and it is a pity that I must live in a world swallowed by fear.

Now, I am confused... what do you consider the 80's generation??? Is it the kids that were norn during the 80's and have no real clue what the 80's was truly about, or those that actually survived and shaped the 80's? If you are considering the citizens, such as yourself, who are teenagers, and weere born during the 80's, then to be suprised that kids just starting to find their way in the world changing thier minds constantly is somewhat naive. To make that claim of those who were there during the 80's is being a bit... I don't know... placing everyone into the same grouping is in need of justification. There are too many people on here that I know about my same age (children of the 80's) who are extremely set in their beliefs.

I was referring to individuals born in the 80's, not individuals that went through the trauma of the 80's. I shouldn't have stereotyped the entire 80's generation, but I will say that a lot of the 80's generation that I know are extremely shifty in their views of the world. And really I think it all revolves around social standards as a parent, and a child of the 80's generation. I really encourage you to look into the Stanley Milgram expirement of Authoritian Rule. It's really the basis of a standard on society where something 'cool' happens, and others follow. It is such an interesting expirement, and I truely believe that it explains how a lot of the second half of the 1900's behaved. Now where this really evolves into our society, is that our social programming has been so skewed from the 60's (Well, the 60's is just my opinion) that our social standards have degraded. Please read it, it's such an interesting expirement.
Rob: No one should ever have to justify their beliefs.
Ron
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49 posted 06-06-2004 11:50 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Because any individual in life, should have the ability to believe in what they choose to believe in.

Well, I choose to believe every man, and certainly every writer, should be able to articulate why they believe as they do. And, you'll just have to accept that, without all the complaining I'm seeing, because after all, you believe I have the right to believe that without justifying it.

Ironic, ain't it?
 
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