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Bush's Thanksgiving Trip?

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Temptress
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0 posted 12-02-2003 12:27 AM       View Profile for Temptress   Email Temptress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Temptress



Well...here I go. I hope this discussion continues for a while.

I am really curious how everyone feels about Bush's Thanksgiving trip to Iraq. I have only noticed one poem about it in Open, and didn't really agree with the negative view of it.

Discuss please



I'll add some thoughts later. I just wanted to get it started.

All of my impurities are right here on my sleeve. This is Me"---Faith Hill

SEA
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with you


1 posted 12-02-2003 10:16 AM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

I haven't heard much about it, I saw a bit of it on the news, and that's it. I really think it was great. I happen to think he is a great President. I don't care that some people think it was just a photo op....I saw the smiles of the folks over there,(on the news) they seemed happy he was there, that is all that really matters, isn't it? That the President being there made people there, happy? Made them feel like he cared? They are serving their country, are far away from their families, and I can't even imagine how hard that must be. So if it made them happy, then it was a good thing.
Ringo
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2 posted 12-02-2003 12:53 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

I actually think it was a very good thing for the troops, and for the country. Yes, it was a photo-op, however, I really do not believe that was the full intent. If it was going to be something to get mileage out of, and that was it, he wouldn't have kept it a large of a secret as it was.
America's military is over there doing a tough job, and is getting, relatively speaking, very little thanks for it. The Democratic presidential candidates (No, this isn't a slam, or disrespect) are to a one vilifying the mission that is being carried out, and telling the world that we have no reason to be there. If we have no business being there, that means our troops have no reason being there, and are not performing a very valuable mission, and are- indeed- completely wasting their time and their lives for no good cause. A great many Americans are screaming at the top of their lungs that same exact sentiment. To the average Marine, Sailor, Soldier, or Airman in theater, who has no clue about big picture, and couldn't care any less if he ever got the "big picture", this has the ring of them being unappreciated, and their sacrifices being unappreciated by the people they have sworn to serve. To them, it seems as if their friends and comrades who have been called to make the ultimate sacrifice are not being honored for doing the duty they have been called upon to do.
That brings morale crashing through the proverbial floor... ESPECIALLY during holidays.
What President Bush did was let them know that there are still Americans that don't know them personally, and who have no stake in their individual lives, hopes, or dreams that are thinking about them, and who are understanding of the sacrifices they are making by not being in a comfortable house, with all of the creature comforts that we complain about, and by being away from their families.

We are all equal but we’re individually different
and able to reach the impossible if we try.

Mistletoe Angel
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3 posted 12-02-2003 03:21 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Puhleeze.

Tangibly many probably feel he went to console the troops and attempt to boost their morale, but intangibly it is quite obvious why he REALLY went, so he can save his own butt for 2004. It was nothing but a "patriotic" publicity move in my opinion, and if he believes that I am going to suddenly vote for him next year because he carved turkey in Baghdad for the troops, he is sorrrrrrrrely mistaken! Only the most shallow soul would switch sides after an act like that, and as far as I'm concerned, NOTHING will encourage me to support him now. He has already brought enough harm on the world as it is, environmentally, socially, and constitutionally, and his lies are among the worst ever spoken in America's history.

You know what my opinion on this is? It was nothing but a selfish ulterior motive, and if Kohlberg ranked him on his Moral Scale, he'd be at a mere 2 right now. It's all about him, him, him. I happen to have visited Fort Carson numerous times with my friend Randy Meador, who is enlisted there in the National Guard, and a majority there share my beliefs that they were not affected one bit by his visit. Nope, sorry Bush, but thanks for playing!

By the way, I think this would suit best in The Alley!

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

[This message has been edited by Mistletoe Angel (12-02-2003 03:34 PM).]

inot2B
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4 posted 12-02-2003 08:51 PM       View Profile for inot2B   Email inot2B   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for inot2B

Glad you asked. I felt so proud that the President of the USA would go over and visit the troops who are defending our Country as well as other countries. Yes, he put his life in jeopardy for the short time he was there, but so do our troops. I believe before leaving the President made sure all the important people knew what he was going to do and a plan was set up to transfer power smoothly if something would of happened to him. Was it a ploy for votes?  I also saw Sen. H. Clinton over there. Did she do it for votes? I don't care, it was the look on the troops faces that counted. They seemed so happy to see someone who would risk their life when they didn't have to, come visit them.
Yes I am proud of my President!!!!
The only thing that surprised me was that a small number of the MEDIA knew about plans for the trip and they kept their mouthshut.
Temptress
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5 posted 12-02-2003 09:41 PM       View Profile for Temptress   Email Temptress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Temptress

Thanks for the thoughts so far everyone. I'm enjoying reading them.

Noah?
Why would I want this in The Alley? It isn't a complaint..I'm not flamin' or complainin', etc.

Thanks for the suggestion though...

All of my impurities are right here on my sleeve. This is Me"---Faith Hill

Local Rebel
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6 posted 12-02-2003 09:51 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

A couple of things come to mind;

"I reject the cynical view that politics is a dirty business."
       --Richard M. Nixon

"If a politician found he had cannibals among his constituents, he would promise them missionaries for dinner." --Henry Louis Mencken

"Everything a politician does is political" -- (paraphrased by me of something said by?  Kissinger?  don't recall)

The mantle of leadership imbues a pernicious shadow across any and every action regardless of its import or intent.  

If a man takes care to make sure his property is safe and secure so that visitors or passers by won't be injured is it because he truly doesn't want someone to be injured or is it because he wishes to avoid a lawsuit?  What if it is both?    

What if Bush hadn't visited Iraq or the troops in the field?  What would be said about him?  That he doesn't care about the troops -- that Iraq is too insecure for him to visit?  

It is a two edged sword.  But to say that the President chose the edge that brought some degree of comfort and morale to the troops in the field (be they righteously deployed or not they are deployed) most likely gives an indication of what lies beneath the political petina.

In the end -- politically it is a wash -- so I give the trip a thumbs-up.  Bush may be my ideological opponent -- but he is not my enemy.
Ringo
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7 posted 12-03-2003 12:42 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Noah- We have discussed our political beliefs before, and never seemed to agree on much. Once again, I must respectfully disagree with you. I do not feel that his trip was done to save his butt for 2004. A simple trip like that would never do it, and to accuse him of believing it would dishonors- not only the president- your intelligence as well, for believing an ENTIRE presidential staff would believe that it could.
As for saving his keester for 2004, I do not believe that he needs this tiny little trip to do so. The economy is strong, as evidenced by the GDP being higher than it has been since 1985 (when a Republican was president, BTW),and having grown for the 3rd quarter in a row, the GNP is also on a steady increase. Exports are up, housing starts are up, housing sales are up, unemployment is declining for the 4th month in a row, Car sales are on the rise, personal savings are beginning to increase (slowly), and there are too many other factors to include.
As for his lies being among the worst in America's history...
While it is true that there are not any WMD's that have been found, there have been a few polls where the country as a whole feel safer with Sadam Hussein out of the picture. It would have been better that Pres. Bush ver. 2.0 announced that the Middle East had a cockroach problem and needed an exterminator (the coalition).
Although I have conceded that point,I cannot agree that his lies are among the worst. By doing so, you are placing him ahead of such notables as:
Gen. Grant, with the array of scandals he had during his watch,
the Tammany Hall scandal- and all of the lies told there-
President Lincoln, who announced that he freed the slaves, when in fact, he freed the slaves in a separate country that he had no rights to. That would be like an American President issuing a proclamation that the slaves in Angola were now free...
Oh, should I include Gen. Washington who lied to the Continental Congress about the conditions at Valley Forge as to get more support?
How about President Roosevelt, who denied having a mistress?
Pres. Truman, who KNEW pearl Haarbor was to be attacked and said nothing as to involve the US in a war to oust a tyranical regime that invaded its neighbors (sounds slightly familiar??)
President Kennedy, who also denied having a mistress or six.
President Johnson who lied about going into Cambodia and Laos to fight the soldiers of a regime that invaded its neighbors to place them under forced rule that they didn't ask for (Where have I seen that before?)
President Nixon for ALL of his lies
President Reagan for the Iran-Contra lies
President Bush ver 1.0 for the "No New Taxes" lie
Pres. Clinton for- Whitewater, denying Monica, denying Paula Jones, not inhaling, Vince Foster, etc.
While we are on the subject of Pres. Clinton, and bringing up the subject of lame, BS photo ops... During his first Veteran's Day as Pres, he was walking throughout Arlington for a "solitary moment" honoring the military men and women therre, and just "happened" to find a miniature flag that he lovingly put intothe ground beside a grave marker... PUH-LEEZ. THAT was a shameless photo op that was designed to make the fact that he was a draft dodger all better... the same sort of senseless ploy which you accuse the sitting president of.
LEt's not forget MRS. Clinton, and her "I have always considered myself to be a New Yorker" speech.
Ted Kennedy and "I know nothing about Chappaquiddick"
There are far too many astronomical lies that have been told by too many politicians to place this president among the top contenders.
And you mentioned:
"Only the most shallow soul would switch sides after an act like that, and as far as I'm concerned, NOTHING will encourage me to support him now."
It seems to me that statement is just as shallow, which is suprising as I know you are not a shallow person at all.
I know that everything I said in this reply is in direct conflict with your firmly held beliefs, and that we will NEVER agree on anything when it comes to ideology, and politics, however, please know that my points in here are only in answer and not in conflict with you or your right to believe what it is you do.

We are all equal but we’re individually different
and able to reach the impossible if we try.

Opeth
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8 posted 12-03-2003 07:52 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Without any evidence, it would be pure conjecture to suggest that the president made the trip for a photo-op in order to boost his 2004 campaign.

However, our ex-president Bill Cliton, DID, on numerous occasions, stage events to make himself look patriotic - to boost his poll ratings with the political voting "fence-sitters."

I can't remember the year, but on one Memorial Day, while walking past the thousands of dead soldiers graves (each with a flag stuck into the ground next to the grave markers), Mr. Cliton happened to come across a flag that had (or did it?) fallen over...

our empathizing ex-prez, Mr. Cliton, reached down unfurled the flag, stuck it back into the ground, looked over his shoulder to make sure the cameraman captured his almost-perfectly planned photo-op or Kodak moment, if you will, and bowed his head in solomn prayer....how sweet...awww!

But wait a moment...

The problem with this entire scene, and one his aides must of completely overlooked was this...

How does a flag fall over and furl itself without any outside assistance?


GUILTY

And that was only one occasion where he shamed veterans nationwide.

Now, what was that about Bush?

[This message has been edited by Opeth (12-03-2003 08:04 AM).]

Mistletoe Angel
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9 posted 12-03-2003 11:25 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Once again, Bradly, we may never agree on anything politically, but I respect your opinions and I also do not hate Bush, I simply pity him full-heartily and take him as an opponent and not an enemy.

However, yes, I do believe he is one of the biggest liars America has ever seen...and his term isn't over yet. What makes him an even worse liar than many of whom you mentioned is the fact he doesn't lie directly, he lies indirectly. His administration is frequently using euphemisms to substitute for his true agendas, he decodes certain words so citizens look them at other ways. The environment is at stake with his plans so-called the "Clear Skies" and "Healthy Forests" campaigns, and he has destroyed over 200 environmental documents that have endured over 30 years. He has spat on our very own constitution, stolen the First Amendment from the honorable working man, and slowly our nation is becoming a stone cold oligarchy. He has put Medicare at the brink of doom. He waged a falsified war and has killed over 17,000 people so far, and I don't know what you have to say about the 54 Iraqi deaths the other day during Bush's visit, but I'll move on. Finally, I'd love to give credit to Abe and SharaRose for providing the following information from me from a global perspective:

Could all this really be true!!!! Amazing if it is. Voting Records of
Arabic/Islamic States listed below are the actual voting records of
various Arabic/Islamic States.
These voting records are recorded in both the US State Dept and United
Nations' records:


Kuwait votes against the United States 67% of the time.


Qatar votes against the United States 67% of the time.


Morocco votes against the United States 70% of the time.


United Arab Emirates votes against the U. S. 70% of the time.


Jordan votes against the United States 71% of the time.


Tunisia votes against the United States 71% of the time.


Saudi Arabia votes against the United States 73% of the time.


Yemen votes against the United States 74% of the time.


Algeria votes against the United States 74% of the time.


Oman votes against the United States 74% of the time.


Sudan votes against the United States 75% of the time.


Pakistan votes against the United States 75% of the time.


Libya votes against the United States 76% of the time.


Egypt votes against the United States 79% of the time.


Lebanon votes against the United States 80% of the time.


India votes against the United States 81% of the time.


Syria votes against the United States 84% of the time.


Mauritania votes against the United States 87% of the time.


US Foreign Aid to those that hate us:
Egypt, for example, after voting 79% of the time against the United
States,
still receives $2 billion annually in US Foreign Aid.


Jordan votes 71% against the United States and receives $192,814,000.
annually in US Foreign Aid.


Pakistan votes 75% against the United States receives $6,721,000.
annually
in US Foreign Aid.


India votes 81% against the United States receives $143,699,000.
annually
in US Foreign Aid.


In the last year The Taliban terrorized the people of Afghanistan and
gave safe
haven to Osama Bin Laden, they received $143,000,000. in US Foreign Aid.


Sudan voted 75% against the United States and received $1,121,000 in US
Foreign Aid.


The Palestinian Authority will receive $500 million dollars in US
Foreign Aid over the next five years!
Israel, it must be noted, receives $3 billion in US Foreign Aid.
However, for the last five years it has an average record of voting with
the United States 94% of the time.


There is clearly no incentive for most countries to support the United
States, as they will receive US Foreign Aid regardless of their stances.


Perhaps it is time for the United States to deny things such as money,
scientific, technological, medical expertise, and education to nations
who simply will not assist or protect American interests? Worse yet,
your Federal dollars go to and support all of the anti-American groups
trying to destroy the "American way of life." This may still not balance
the budget, but it seems a good place to start.
It might not hurt to send this to all your Congress people and have your
friends do the same.


And you call my comment that NOTHING will encourage me to support him now ignorant? Well I'll tell you something, I am not a person who gets angry or upset easily, but there are two things I don't tolerate; dishonesty and cowardice, and Bush is both those things. Therefore, I find my statement to not be any more valid. I myself feel that our current democratic nominees are not the best this nation has ever had, nevertheless I shall support the winning candidate as I have a creed that I shall never re-elect a dishonest man.

Look beyond the front porch, there is much more than the media meets the eye!

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

Ron
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10 posted 12-03-2003 12:21 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Are you really suggesting, Noah, that we should only feed a hungry man if he will first agree with everything we say?

If the purpose of Foreign Aid is to "buy friendship," then it should ALL be eliminated. If the purpose is to help people who can't otherwise help themselves, it should NOT depend on political agendas.
Mistletoe Angel
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11 posted 12-03-2003 01:18 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

No Ron, perhaps I should clarify.

The source was from an e-mail I received from Abe sent to me from SharaRose. I didn't necessarily agree with the closing statement completely though I decided it was necessary to post. The message is all in red colored font and italized. And my intent in sharing this is not to say we should cut the annual budget on all these lesser developed countries, as I believe we are simply not giving enough, just simply to show you all the statistics in how the world beyond the U.S reacts to this nation. In fact, Israel is the only nation at the time the war began that had more of an approval than a disapproval rating to the war. Every other nation had a majority disapproval!

And, to answer your question Ron, no, that is not what I believe at all. Political agenda should not interfere with how we feed and console the less fortunate. That is cruel and injust in my mind. Unfortunately, that's not the case, and as much as I'd like to see that certain type of Foreign Aid abolished where you "buy" friendship, it would be a double-edged sword to many in this type of debate. After all, the message said it "might not" hurt to send this, it didn't say "it won't hurt", so of course I can see where you came in with those questions.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton



"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

[This message has been edited by Mistletoe Angel (12-03-2003 01:24 PM).]

Balladeer
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12 posted 12-04-2003 04:17 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

This is an e-mail from a Captain in Iraq circulating. Can I verify that it is true? No, and anyone against Bush will probably swear it's false but it rings pretty true with me......

Amazing, first-hand report of the President's visit with the troops on Thanksgiving Day.
"We knew there was a dinner planned with ambassador Bremer and LTG
Sanchez. There were 600 seats available and all the units in the
division were tasked with filling a few tables. Naturally, the 501st MI
battalion got our table. Soldiers were grumbling about having to sit
through another dog-and-pony show, so we had to pick soldiers to attend.
I chose not to go.

But, about 1500 the G2, LTC Devan, came up to me and with a smile, asked
me to come to dinner with him, to meet him in his office at 1600 and
bring a camera. I didn't really care about getting a picture with
Sanchez or Bremer, but when the division's senior intelligence officer
asks you to go, you go. We were seated in the chow hall, fully decorated
for thanksgiving when aaaaallllll kinds of secret service guys showed
up.

That was my first clue, because Bremer's been here before and his
personal security detachment is not that big. Then BG Dempsey got up to
speak, and he welcomed ambassador Bremer and LTG Sanchez. Bremer thanked
us all and pulled out a piece of paper as if to give a speech. He
mentioned that the President had given him this thanksgiving speech to
give to the troops. He then paused and said that the senior man present
should be the one to give it. He then looked at Sanchez, who just
smiled.

Bremer then said that we should probably get someone more senior to read
the speech. Then, from behind the camouflage netting, the President of
the United States came around. The mess hall actually erupted with
hollering. Troops bounded to their feet with shocked smiles and just
began cheering with all their hearts. The building actually shook. It
was just unreal. I was absolutely stunned. Not only for the obvious, but
also because I was only two tables away from the podium. There he stood,
less than thirty feet away from me! The cheering went on and on and on.

Soldiers were hollering, cheering, and a lot of them were crying. There
was not a dry eye at my table. When he stepped up to the cheering, I
could clearly see tears running down his cheeks. It was the most surreal
moment I've had in years. Not since my wedding and Aaron being born.
Here was this man, our President, came all the way around the world,
spending 17 hours on an airplane and landing in the most dangerous
airport in the world, where a plane was shot out of the sky not six days
before.

Just to spend two hours with his troops. Only to get on a plane and
spend another 17 hours flying back. It was a great moment, and I will
never forget it. He delivered his speech, which we all loved, when he
looked right at me and held his eyes on me. Then he stepped down and was
just mobbed by the soldiers. He slowly worked his way all the way around
the chow hall and shook every last hand extended. Every soldier who
wanted a photo with the President got one. I made my way through the
line, got dinner, then wolfed it down as he was still working the room.

You could tell he was really enjoying himself. It wasn't just a photo
opportunity. This man was actually enjoying himself! He worked his way
over the course of about 90 minutes towards my side of the room.
Meanwhile, I took the opportunity to shake a few hands. I got a picture
with Ambassador Bremer, Talabani (acting Iraqi president) and Achmed
Chalabi (another member of the ruling council) and Condaleeza Rice, who
was there with him.

I felt like I was drunk. He was getting closer to my table so I went
back over to my seat. As he passed and posed for photos, he looked my in
the eye and "How you doin', captain." I smiled and said "God bless you,
sir." To which he responded "I'm proud of what you do, captain." Then
moved on..."

  
Mistletoe Angel
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13 posted 12-04-2003 06:32 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Balladeer, I am a bit curious why you think anti-Bush people would believe this letter to be false. Nothing about it seems unreasonable or grotesque and you know how I am fiercely against Bush. Yet I know well Bush was in Baghdad and at least some were glad.

Obviously some troops were happy with him making a suprise visit, obviously some weren't. Obviously some greeted Bush with open arms and I am not going to deny that fact, though I believe strongly in my opinion Bush's primary incentive was to help himself rather than help others.

So, if you please, I'm just curious why there'd be any suspicion to this letter's credibility.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

Balladeer
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14 posted 12-04-2003 09:01 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, Noah, this missive portrays Bush in a very positive light...a man who flew 34 hours with minimum fanfare over hostile territory to spend two hours with the soldiers in the field. You say the obviously some soldiers weren't happy with his visit. Please tell me how that is obvious...it certainly does not state that here nor have I seen any reports to verify that fact.

   It has been brought up in this thread about Hillary's visit over there as being the true photo op yet you have ignored that completely so I ask you that directly now. You have a state senator with no military ranking and nothing whatsoever to do with the troops in Iraq making a visit. You have Bush, commander-in-chief of the Armed forces, flying there at a time when rockets are being fired daily, as opposed to little more than street fighting when Hillary went, and you call his a photo op and say nothing of hers. I can assure you that Bush could have come up with other ways to get photo ops than by going through what he did there. The problem with hatred or absolute prejudice is that you lose the ability to rationalize without prejudice or recognize anything that goes against your views. It appears that there would be absolutely nothing Bush could do that you would call favorable and that's a sad thing. Bush has done some things that I strongly disagree with but I will give him credit for what I think he does well....and I believe this is one of them....obviously so do the soldiers he sent there.
Mistletoe Angel
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15 posted 12-04-2003 10:05 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I know little of Hillary's visit, and I am pretty sure that, too, in my opinion, was a photo-op stunt. That is why I didn't bring light to that subject, as we haven't gotten a lot of coverage about her visit here.

I happen to think 34 hours is very reasonable, as I remember it taking 26 hours for me to get from Denver to Frankfurt, Germany when going on vacation to Ireland last summer. And I have been keeping attentive to the attacks continuing in Iraq, with one vessel crashing six days prior to Bush's visit.

I have a close friend who is enrolled at Fort Carson, a major military unit facility in my home-state, who as a matter of fact is a registered member and part of our ever-growing family here at Passions, Hypnosis, and multiple times I have went down there with him and met many of his acquaintances. Many do not support of Bush, and many said they despised shaking his hand on his recent visit there, some even said they wanted to spit on their hand prior to shaking his hand. Believe me, there are many down there in Iraq who weren't happy to have him around that the media didn't wish to convey.

Finally, you mis-read me on what I said about me saying NOTHING would make me approve of him. I meant NOTHING would encourage me to vote for him next year, obviously if he actually did bring peace to a nation in the world, or boosted the economy tenfold, or accomplished an act of diplomacy, I would give him a thumbs-up for that, and praise that act, or anything else that I believe in my creed. However, a majority of the things he has done I have disapproved of bitterly, and I have my own philosophy that I will NEVER re-elect a constantly dishonest man, NEVER re-elect one who promotes war and violence and NEVER thoroughly attempts to use diplomacy, NEVER re-elect one who holds so much more prejudice to his people than you are accusing me of. Is that really prejudiced? I have my convictions, I have my druthers, and I don't ask of much, so I find it far from prejudiced. I was upset when Clinton told a big whopper during his second term, if someone was about to use his name again, and if I was old enough to vote then and if that was actually his first term, I would be reluctant to re-elect him, although his lie really put no one in danger but himself and those suspect within the moment. I happen to think Clinton was one of our better presidents in recent years in office, and in my opinion his lies were rather modest compared to the on-going lies Bush says or his administration passes onto him, which a majority of them are from behind closed doors and not up on the podium, yet deeply affecting the world. And is saying that prejudiced, or having my own set of morals and sentiments? Well, I find that sad myself, and personally, that hurts my feelings too. I honestly feel this is why so many young people like myself are reluctant to embrace the general public and speak their minds, they fear being misunderstood and say something that says like something else to another. And I'm sorry if you feel I am being prejudiced, as I don't believe in prejudice and never make it my intent to be so. And I can also say that I do not hate anyone, not even Bush. I simply scorn him with deepest pity, and I only pray he thinks of what he does each moment of the way and thinks of the consequences is all. I believe in the notion of "turning the other cheek" and that is what I will do. All I can say is I must move on and offer a spirited wave, speaking my mind while looking ahead, simple as that.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20


[This message has been edited by Mistletoe Angel (12-04-2003 10:20 PM).]

Balladeer
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16 posted 12-04-2003 10:26 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, Noah, ypu have your convictions and you are certainly entitled to them, as all people are. Nothing I said was meant to intentionally offend you and I hope you know that. We have gone through a period where all of the Clinton shennanigans have been ignored or swept under the table, first with slick WIllie and now with Hillary.....even to the point of saying Clinton's lies were "modest", as if classifying lies into degrees somehow makes him more honest. Yes, I feel that, by your many statements in poems and different threads you have a prejudice against Bush and I have the same against Clinton so there is no difference between us except that we have different targets.

Peace...
Mistletoe Angel
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17 posted 12-04-2003 11:18 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Thank you Balladeer! I knew you could understand my frustration in my previous response! And though we may have opposing targets and will likely be opinionated rivals political-mindedly come now and 2004, I just want you to know that I respect and tolerate all you say, as I believe in the First Amendment and the joy of our God-given speech and through settling our differences, we gain a deeper understanding and appreciation of each other!



God Bless!

Love,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

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18 posted 12-04-2003 11:57 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Amen, Noah...
ice
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19 posted 12-07-2003 09:11 PM       View Profile for ice   Email ice   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ice

It is very encouraging to open a page such as this and see that "regular" people do get together and discuss current events...
I applaud you all in your ability to clearly speak your minds on this and other sensitive topics...

I have read all that has been said here, the back and forth discussion about if Bush was waxing political at Thanksgiving...I do see it as a photo op, but believe any president, so close to a new election day, would have done the same...
If it matters at all, I must say that after reading all points of view I lean to the "Noah" side of things...

I know this president is a liar of the most high degree, as is most all of his cabinet....but as one commenter said, so was Clinton and several other presidents (maybe all of them) btw lying about sexual hijacks to me is no great sin and does not effect adversely in any great degree this nations security, my opinion.

This war was promoted by lies, as most have been in the past, so maybe I should forgive this president?

I have many of the lies that Bush has told in my files,(as well as those told by his administration) and information on the international laws that have been broken by the past several administrations, pertinent to Iraq in particular and recent wars in general, Perhaps this is not the forum to open up a discussion of that sort? Would the "Alley" be a better place?

Ford Hume aka ice
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20 posted 12-07-2003 09:42 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Yes! pipTalk Lounge is more of a general board and while we must respect each others opinions and political views as this is a place of respect and tolerance, I think the best place to discuss Bush's administration's lies, Clinton's lies, etc. would be in The Alley or maybe Philosophy 101.



Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

Opeth
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21 posted 12-07-2003 10:28 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"I know this president is a liar of the most high degree, as is most all of his cabinet...."

~ How do you know this? Please, provide me with clearcut evidence that Bush and his cabinet are liars. Or, is it just your opinion based on your subjective thoughts, media speculations, and peer persuasions?

"but as one commenter said, so was Clinton and several other presidents (maybe all of them) btw lying about sexual hijacks to me is no great sin..."

~ Let me remind you, Clinton lied under oath and that is a felony called perjury. I don't recall Bush lying while under oath.

"...and does not effect adversely in any great degree this nations security, my opinion."

~ That could be debated. Since Clinton was such a liar, and I can say that because there is clear-cut proof, could greatly affect the nation's security in many ways.

"This war was promoted by lies, as most have been in the past, so maybe I should forgive this president?"

~ Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. Where is the proof that it was based on lies, and please do not direct me to websites that report conjecture, half-truths, and unprovable innuendos and statements.

"If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead."

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22 posted 12-08-2003 12:45 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, ice, the Alley would be more appropriate for the views you express although, if you check there, you will see it has been done several times and no minds have been changed yet.

I would like to discuss one point you said , though...

btw lying about sexual hijacks to me is no great sin

I have heard so many normally decent, moralistic and basically honest people say that same thing. They see the President of the United States commit adultry, use his office to seduce a girl half his age, lie to his wife, the country and the Grand Jury, committing a felony, all while in office...and they say "So what? As long as the economy is good for ME I don't care." He was the posterboy and idol of every business executive who is under indictment now because he showed how all rules could be ignored, even breaking the law. But he exposed us for what we are...do what you want as long as I am not affected.

My biggest problem is with the children. When we were kids the President of the United States was like a god, a symbol of everything we wanted to be. How many kids said "I want to be President when I grow up!"? Many. Then, of course we grow up and we realize that the President is a normal human being with all the strengths and weaknesses we all have...but, as children, he is a hero. Clinton took that away. He cheapened the office of the Presidency in a way that had never been done before. CHildren were exposed to his weaknesses on the evening news, the papers, the conversations between adults trading Bill and Monica jokes. They read of him cheating on his wife and heard their parents saying "So what? That's ok." He killed the innocence of the children's view of the presidency in the same way a man would by telling all kid's that Santa Claus was a fake, instead of letting them discover it as they grew up. He showed them that lying and dishonesty is no big deal...and many adults like you backed him up. To me that is the true Clinton legacy....be happy with it because it's going to be with us for a very long time.
Mistletoe Angel
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23 posted 12-08-2003 02:08 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Balladeer, with all due respect, I do agree that Clinton did lie and it was unnecessary and inappropriate. And I did say that I believe Clinton was one of the better presidents we've had in recent years and I still stand by that belief and also that his lies (again I'm saying were still inappropriate) were modest in comparison to many others.

However, I think your whole claim on this particular incident tearing apart the innocence of chldren and how they idolize their president as a hero is abstract. Very few times have I considered a politician to be a "honest" man, and as Bradly has previously stated examples of lying politicians in American history, the Clinton lie, though disturbing, is not groundbreaking on this issue. I happen to think incidents like the John F. Kennedy assasination affected children a whole lot more than his lie for instance. 40 years later it still is being widely talked about in the news, and I think something like that brought too much fear to the children, fear to want to be president. And time and time again, though I wish it wasn't so, politicians tend to have an inclination to lie, simple as that. Believe me, that "legacy" has been around long before Clinton started his so-called reign of terror.

And even if a significant amount of children are affected by the Clinton scandal, has Bush really done any better at all trying to restore the innocent view of heroism of a president in a child's eyes? A Thanksgiving visit and his constant vows that America will prevail do not overshadow such things as the images of Uday and Qusay assasinated on silver screens worldwide, Bush's lie that the end of major combat in Iraq is over when more people have died there after the proclamation was made than during the war itself, the constant despair and shame spoken beyond Iraq but other major cities across the world, all the lies still spoken behind closed doors at the White House time and time and time again. Bush may not have committed purgery, nevertheless him and his administration and their euphemisms and bad use of words and misleading information are all lies, only putting not only the innocence of America's children in danger but also destroying the innocence of children all across the world. Practically the entire Middle East, France, Germany, London, North Korea, and so forth...the administration's onslaught has made America more hated than ever, and in the Middle East because of Bush's administation and the speculations made by their leaders in response to the administration's attacks, there will be more Osama bin Laden's than ever, as more and more Iraqi's rage in anger each day, and the shooting of 54 Iraqi rebels urged by U.S commanders is only the beginning of what can escalate as the innocent children there are constantly surrounded by gunsmoke and shrapnel and tears, which either inevitably leads to grave sadness or anger, which the anger leads to hatred and the hatred only puts many others innocence at risk. It's all a domino effect. And if America's children now aren't broken-hearted by what's going on, then it otherwise must all look just like a violent videogame they enjoy playing!

Argue as you wish, but the whole "lying and dishonesty is no big deal" thing has been going on forever, and to blame it's whole reincarnation on Clinton is kind of biased and also arguably an abstract kind of argument! I've become somewhat biased to Bush but although I think he is one of the greatest liars I've known in my life, I certainly don't consider him the father of all liars, and Clinton certainly isn't either. Just like what Opeth asked for ice, prove it, and echoing his words, not by so-called subjective thoughts, peer persuasions or speculations and innuendos. And I understand this goes for me too and my argument, so somehow this puts both sides into a constant draw, and somehow I feel intuitive arguments are somewhat necessary in this kind of echelon, so know I will respect any response in a friendly manner!

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton



"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20


[This message has been edited by Mistletoe Angel (12-08-2003 02:32 AM).]

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24 posted 12-08-2003 07:45 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ahh, dear Noah, I could answer everything you discussed but what's the point? You are speaking of your thoughts and predictions when stating that America is more hated than ever, there will be many more Bin Laden's due to Bush, etc etc etc. They have no basis in fact. Did you see the movie "The Ugly American" when it came out? No, ofcourse not...it was in the 60's long before you were born. America has always been hated by a certain faction of people around the world and always will be. So what? The vast majority of those who hate America are people we would be worried about if they LIKED us! LOL! Views have indeed changed due to Bush and I'll give you an example. When the leader of Qatar was interviewed, he replied on national tv - "This is not Mr, Roger's neighborhood over here. These boys play rough and they respect only strength and power. For the first time the Arab world respects the United States and it's President."

I could say that there are plenty of reasons to be glad we are in Iraq....for example, half a million children under the age of 6 are not now dying of hunger. Massive graves are being uprooted to show the tens of thousands of victim who were slaughtered and are not being now. The prisons where anyone against the regime were tortured and murdered are now shut down. Would you prefer that the children were still dying of hunger? Of course you wouldn't...

I could give more examples but the one that stands above all is that we have a better chance to think that a major attack like 9-11 is less likely to occur. You do remember that date, right? Unfortunately many don't....or pretend that it wasn't important. The terrorists regimes have been dealt serious blows. They are in hiding and their resources are being seized. They are being arrested all over the world and are so busy trying to save their hides they don't have time for 9-11's. There is little doubt that Iraq was, and would have continued being, a safe haven for them to plan and execute future attacks. Can I prove such attacks would have occured? Nope. It's the paradox that how can someone prove that something would have occured that was prevented from occuring? We cannot know. I'm surious as to what you had to say when Clinton bombed Iraq and made his speech to Congress that Iraq was the biggest threat to the United States in the world and every force, up to and including nuclear weaponry was acceptable to use to counteract this threat? What did you say then, Noah?

As far as Bush endangering the world, I could argue the opposite. Had Clinton acted when the first WTC bombing was thwarted, when the Cole was blown up....had he declared a war on terrorism then and acted the odds are there would have been no 9-11. Osama Bin Laden said in one the tapes played that they were so encouraged by the lack of action and response by the United States in those incidences that they were encouraged to go ahead with their plans for 9-11. I'm not making that up, Noah...it's in the transcripts. No, Clinton was too busy decreasing the size of the military which we are paying for now.

Anyway, my dear friend, you will continue to believe what you wish and ignore that which casts doubt on it and I shall go on with my own beliefs, too. History will dictate which of us is right and, if it's me, I'll hunt you down wherever you are and scream out, "SEE??!!
 
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