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Passions in Poetry

Bush's Thanksgiving Trip?

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Mistletoe Angel
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25 posted 12-09-2003 12:04 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

And I shall be waiting to do the same also!

Even if you are right to an extent on Clinton reluctant to go and dismantle the terrorist network, how much has Bush paid attention to al-Qaeda ever since dropping some bombs, or the Taliban, Michael? Very little. I don't believe in war in any circumstance, but his justifications in warring even lost focus. He just drops some bombs, let them all scatter about, and his administration misleads our people right into Iraq, almost entirely forgetting about al-Qaeda, who may be decentralized yet possibly more dangerous than ever before. Coincidence?

And yes, I absolutely believe every child must be fed and cared for. But if you are so glad we are in Iraq and this is a major reason why they've fought, why not go do the same in Syria, Iran, Lebanon, etc? There are millions of children elsewhere living the exact same tragedy I'm sure, what about them, what about them? Sorry, but as much as I care for the children, I don't believe in that form of violent response.

Of course never has a president we've had had an intense like/dislike relationship. I accept that fact. Along with believing in our First Amendment, that is why I have much respect for all you have to say despite disagreeing with you much of the time.

Despite Clinton's flaws, I think you are spending a bit too much time in the then, and should look more to the now. History is meant to be read, it is meant to be known, but it shouldn't cancel out the day. Because right now, the headline isn't about Clinton, it's about Bush. Clinton's reign of terror has come to an end, and Bush's goes on. I have lived my adolescence witnessing the past, and now I am witnessing the present and what the future may bring. Who knows what history unfolds next, but we are all the actors on this grand stage of life and using too many flashbacks, asides and soliloquys will only hold back the play as it progresses. There will be those for peace and those for war, those who promote love and those who promote hate, those who imagine and those who just don't think about it at all. But while I keep the past like a reference guide in my pocket, I will be taking account here. Then I will draw detailed comparisons.

Wow, seems like we both strayed from the main topic quite a distance! Ah well, I do enjoy discussing current events with you, it is quite a pleasure! God Bless You!

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

ice
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since 05-17-2003
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26 posted 12-09-2003 01:07 PM       View Profile for ice   Email ice   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ice

Opeth
Please be patient, I have very little time to spend on the computer, but I will show  what looks like lies to me. You of course must decide in your own mind if they should be categorized as lies. Do you consider a deception a lie? If so the list will be much longer. Anyway, what I have found is documented by examining speeches and what has not been rebutted as "taken out of context" in the media.. by Bush or his close associates.

An example lie....
Lets start back when the first lies were told to increase the backing of this war by American citizens...keep in mind, at this point the administration had already decided to invade Iraq.

"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."
(Exert from President Bushes State of the Union address 1/28/03.)

At this point the president already knew that the document that this was taken from was a forgery..everyone in the administration knew this was a lie, because previous to this speech the CIA had sent an operative ( an ex ambassador , name not revealed by the CIA) to check out the story....After hearing the speech,that operative stated ""They knew the Niger story was a flat-out lie," .... "They [the White House] were unpersuasive about aluminum tubes and added this to make their case more strongly." ( Quoted in The New Republic)

I will post more like this in the future if there is intrest..

Ford Hume aka ice
ice
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27 posted 12-09-2003 02:20 PM       View Profile for ice   Email ice   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ice

Balladeer
I need to make something perfectly clear before responding to this topic again...and that is that I am in perfect agreement with those who think Saddam is, or was a madman, and should have been removed from his position of power for the good of the world. It is now plain that he was no immanent threat to the United States. But my real argument is with the reasons given for his removal, and the false pretenses used to convince the public that those arguments were valid....This is a huge subject, I am still not sure if this is the right forum to discuss it in, but my conscience compels me to respond to what your last reply to Noah (Mistletoe Angel)
*********
"The vast majority of those who hate America are people we would be worried about if they LIKED us! LOL"

According to what has been in the papers, over the last ten months (more so in Europe than in The United States) That majority seems to be most of the rest of the world, or am I reading it wrong? And am I to assume by what you say, that we should disregard the way they feel, thus jeopardizing any future alliances with these countries buy trying to make them look like fools?

Results of a BBC poll aired June 18,2003, some pertinent results from that poll...

"The survey, for a television debate program called "What The World Thinks of America," revealed that 57 percent of the questioned had a very unfavorable, or fairly unfavorable attitude toward US President George WE. Bush."

"Asked who is the more dangerous to world peace and stability, the United States was rated higher than al-Qaeda terrorist"

"It was rated more dangerous than Iran, by people in Jordan, Indonesia, Russia, South Korea and Brazil, and more dangerous than Syria by respondents in all countries except Australia, Israel and the United States."
*
This does not surprise me, It is plain that the world sees us as a rogue bully, that thumbs its nose at international law and opinion.
*******

"Views have indeed changed due to Bush and I'll give you an example. When the leader of Qatar was interviewed, he replied on national TV - "This is not Mr, Roger's neighborhood over here. These boys play rough and they respect only strength and power. For the first time the Arab world respects the United States and it's President."

I think you are confusing "respect" for fear..something we accuse the terrorists of instilling in others..
********
"I could say that there are plenty of reasons to be glad we are in Iraq....for example, half a million children under the age of 6 are not now dying of hunger."

No doubt about it, Saddam let his people starve, of course the U.N. sanctions over the last ten years or so didn't help anything either.
*******
"Massive graves are being uprooted to show the tens of thousands of victim who were slaughtered and are not being now. The prisons where anyone against the regime were tortured and murdered are now shut down."

An excellent reason to have brought Saddam to justice long before this time, (most of the dead in those graves were buried 6 to 10 years ago) or perhaps dragging him to The Hague, like was done with Melosevic, and trying him for crimes against humanity. The reasons for this invasion have changed quickly, and often, falling, as they are proven to be falsehoods.
Maybe I would think differently if humanitarian reasons would have been given for this invasion in the first place....but that of course is not the case, or at least an unstated reason until recently.
********
"I could give more examples but the one that stands above all is that we have a better chance to think that a major attack like 9-11 is less likely to occur."

Worldwide terrorists, ( at least those such as al Qaeda) by what proof we have today, have had no good relationship with Iraq, Saddam being a secular leader, they avoided his company..so there is no reason to think we are safer from those who were inspired by religious fanaticism to act out violently against us. (at least from inside Iraq). There is strong reason to believe that al Qaeda has a presence today in Iraq...I do believe that the fundamentalist Muslims have had their eye on Iraq for a long time, but would not play games with Saddam.....now they see an in, to perhaps developed a stronghold and kill a few Americans at the same time
*********
"The terrorists regimes have been dealt serious blows. "

Yes they have, and we hit them where they were, in Afghanistan. But one of their head men is still free, and still a danger to us....but because of the Iraq invasion, we have changed our focus from freeing the world of the Osama type terrorists, to the pipe dream of turning Baghdad into Los Angeles.
**********
" Clinton was too busy decreasing the size of the military which we are paying for now."

The record shows that this is also a myth and that the only reason that Bushes invasions and wars seem successful is that they are being fought with the Clinton military.. , military money was spent more wisely in the Clinton years, and not on some pipe dream , star wars fantasy ..another long subject that could be discussed in a topic of its own.
***********
"Anyway, my dear friend, you will continue to believe what you wish and ignore that which casts doubt on it and I shall go on with my own beliefs, too. "

Beliefs are wonderful, and easy to express. Truths are hard to examine, especially  through a haze of petrodollars. Of course we must examine our own feelings for falsehoods, but real facts are harder to come by than opinion, the truth is found in places hidden by spinners and politicians who are basically afraid of it, perhaps because they do not want to admit being wrong? So I have turned aside my opinion and tried to dig out the facts, and have come to the conclusion that any emotional impulse must be stifled for a while, now I look to law and documented truths to save us..there are laws, proposed and on the books, that in my opinion are the saving grace of humanity, call me secular if you like.
*
Ford Hume aka ice
Mistletoe Angel
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28 posted 12-09-2003 03:10 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Wow! With all that's been said here the past few days, we could make dozens of new threads of discussion from them!



This truly is a wonderful multi-faceted debate that I hope others join in! I'm sure we could get many other interesting views!



Love,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

S Arthur Grey
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29 posted 12-09-2003 04:47 PM       View Profile for S Arthur Grey   Email S Arthur Grey   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for S Arthur Grey

Always interesting how folks mix up opinion, belief and fact.  Then throw in the huge propensity for "governing" with lies as your source of information and look what you get.  Creates quite a stew, though it's hardly anything new.
Almost poetic in a noisome sort of way.
Now some will call this tidbit a fact and others an opinion I suppose, but this discussion seems to need a reminder:

Iraq is about OIL.

How the situation has been "handled" over the years may be about other things, but ask yourself who wants oil and who has it?

s.a.g.
Denise
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30 posted 12-09-2003 10:13 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I was thrilled when I found out that Bush made a surprise visit to Baghdad on Thanksgiving. It was the right thing to do. I don't think he did it as a photo-op. I think the man has too much personal integrity for that to have been a driving force behind the trip.

Bush isn't perfect and I don't agree with all of his policies but I think he is the best thing the White House has seen in quite a long time, and I agree with Balladeer that his anti-terrorism policies are keeping America safer from terrorists, especially from possible attacks on the scale of 9-11.

Appeasement of the terrorists, as most European governments and liberals in America and the world over seem to favor, has proven to escalate attacks in the past, and in my opinion, directly led to the conditions that made 9-11 possible.

Yes, we should definitely disregard what these countries say regarding us and our policies when what they think should be done conflicts with what we see as necessary in terms of our national security. And in my opinion, we haven't tried to make any of them look like fools. If they look like fools, they did that all on their own. And yes, Saddam should have been taken care of long ago. Bush 'the first' caved to the international climate when he left the job undone. So much for following the wishes of the international community.

It is a known fact that the Arab culture, as a whole, does not respect weakness, and the blood-thirsty barbarians from amongst them equally disdain it and are more than happy to use it to their advantage. They respect (and fear) resolve of will, which they are now witnessing from America, and which I believe is the only stance that can lead to the survival of the free world.

The terroristic attacks in Iraq right now (and there is Intelligence linking Iraq with al Qaeda operatives prior to the war, and al Qaeda does deal with secular regimes against what they perceive to be a common enemy and equally attacks religious regimes, like Saudi Arabia, when it suits their purposes) are being perpetrated in hopes that we will turn tail and run as in the past when the body count rises (that won't happen as long as Bush is still President,) hoping to sway the political climate in America against Bush. They would be even more ecstatic over a Bush defeat in the next election than the Democrats.  

The concept of a world at peace would only succeed if everyone were willing to practice peace, but such is not the case. As long as there is the mindset out there that the deliberate killing and bombing of innocent civilians is okay, even honorable, to advance an agenda predicated on hatred for all other cultures and religions other than one's own, countries that cherish individual liberty are duty-bound to deal with that danger, and not appease it. I don't think it can be said that many people are 'for' war. I think it can be said that sometimes it's necessary for the survival of freedom.

Remember 9-11. Remember the horror, the agony, the burning flesh, and those who chose to plummet to their deaths instead of being burned alive. No one should ever be faced with a decision like that. Remember those buried and trapped beneath tons of rubble, slowly suffocating for days. Visualize the men, the women, the screaming children on the planes, minutes, moments and then seconds before slamming into buildings. Imagine that your mother or father or child or wife or husband were one of those victims. Put yourself, really put yourself, in the shoes of the real life victims for just one agonizing moment. Experience their nightmare. And then honor their memories. Put their real, horrific suffering and death into the equation when debating world politics and policies. And I'm not talking about revenge. I'm talking about never letting it happen again. Whatever it takes, we can't ever let it happen again.

Freedom is not free and a peace at all costs is not peace.
Balladeer
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31 posted 12-09-2003 10:56 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

According to what has been in the papers, over the last ten months (more so in Europe than in The United States) That majority seems to be most of the rest of the world, or am I reading it wrong?

Yes, ice, I believe you are reading it wrong...or the wrong is that you are simply reading it. I don't know your history but, as for myself, I have lived in foreign countries, including Europe, for over 14 years. I am in a fair position to know how average people feel about the United States. Believe it or not, we are fairly well regarded in the majority of the world. Browsing headlines of people trying to sell newspapers does not necessarily give you the true picture or the right to say that "most of the world" is against the US. Right now there are 26 other countries in Iraq helping the allies. Don't see too much of that in the papers, do you?

"Asked who is the more dangerous to world peace and stability, the United States was rated higher than al-Qaeda terrorist"

"It is plain that the world sees us as a rogue bully, that thumbs its nose at international law and opinion."


It is natural that the United States is the greatest threat to the world because it has the POWER to be the biggest threat. Whether it would have any intentions of world domination or not, it does have that power and that power alone makes it the largest threat. If you were to walk into a room to stand next to a 6'10", 350 lb professional football player, you would feel an immediate intimidation. It's a natural reaction. He may be the nicest fellow in the world but knowing that he had the power to pulverize you at his whim would be intimidating...and you would feel it. Pit bull owners understand what I mean exactly. That a feeling many areas of the world get who do not know a great deal about the US. They simply know there is a big country out there that could pulverize them. Why should they not consider them a threat?

It is plain that the world sees us as a rogue bully, that thumbs its nose at international law and opinion.

[Personal attack removed - Ron]

I think you are confusing "respect" for fear..something we accuse the terrorists of instilling in others..

I wasn't the one to make the statement. It was the leader of Qatar and those he spoke for. You can tell him he's confused...I'll pass.  

No doubt about it, Saddam let his people starve, of course the U.N. sanctions over the last ten years or so didn't help anything either.

I have to smile at that one. Funny how the UN sanctions promotes starvation but didn't stop Hussein from building 15 palaces worth millions apiece and allowed him to carry an account of over two billion dollars in the national back, not counting whatever else he has squirreled away in other parts of the world...the kids going hungry were due to the sanctions....

Maybe I would think differently if humanitarian reasons would have been given for this invasion in the first place....but that of course is not the case, or at least an unstated reason until recently

That's a very big maybe you put there and, to me, that is one of the major points of this whole issue. I don't think you would have felt differently....nor do I think the American people would have felt differently. If Bush would have gone to congress and the American people and said, "Half a million kids are dying annually and people are being tortured and murdered in Iraq and we should do something to stop it", would you have said, "Sure, go ahead" or would Congress have said it? I find it unlikely. Noah points out the fact that there are many other countries with those same conditions and why aren't we there but we can only be in so many places and I don't know if he means that, if you can't help all of them, don't help any of them. I happen to feel that Bush felt there was a good reason to believe Iraq was, or would be, a valid threat to US security. No one objected when Clinton stood before congress a declared the same. Who complained when he dropped bombs on Baghdad? Did you...or any others calling Bush a madman? I;m glad we went, for whatever reason, and I'm glad kids are being fed and lives are being spared and I would like to see the same happen to any country ruled by dictators who feed on the instillation of fear and murder of their citizens. The smokescreen people who hide behind that do not share those views is "Well, he didn't tell us the truth." That's their out.

we have changed our focus from freeing the world of the Osama type terrorists, to the pipe dream of turning Baghdad into Los Angeles

[Personal attack removed - Ron]

peace..


[This message has been edited by Ron (12-10-2003 12:29 AM).]

Opeth
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32 posted 12-09-2003 11:19 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Balladeer,

Out of all the people on this site who discuss politics, philosophies, or social issues, I admire you most of all. Your replies here have been intelligently written, articulate, logical, and civil.

As a member of the U.S. Navy, I must say that I do not believe we should be in Iraq. I disagree with the war, but not because of what the liberals believe - that it is for oil or that Bush lied about it being for a fight against terrorism, etc.

To me, it is a rather simple matter, and I always KISS...

1. Iraq is not a direct threat to our national security.
2. We cannot force democracy on countries that do not understand the concept of democracy. Especially, when their they have lived under a certain way for so many years. Let them be what they want.

Not one American life was worth this mess.

Now, with that being said...

since we did go over there... We, as a nation, should stand together and back the decision, therefore backing the troops. So, as a navy chief, I stand by my president and am ready to be called upon to do my part in this Iraqian conflict. And all of those who continue to protest and call the president a liar, etc.. they need to shut the hell up.

Family is family. We are family.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (12-09-2003 11:25 PM).]

Balladeer
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33 posted 12-09-2003 11:52 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Opeth, I certainly agree that not one American, or allied life, was worth this mess...we are together on that.

No, I do not believe that Iraq is a threat to us, either.....now. I do remember, however, all of the years of how HUssein reacted to the UN inspectors. He threw up every roadblock he could. He disallowed them to inspect his palaces, schools, hospitals and a variety of other areas. He threw them out on occassion. He made it virtually impossible for them to do their job, the job he had agreed to let them do. Who would not look at this action and not feel he had something to hide? I certainly did, as did I think a large majority of the world. Then 9/11 comes along. I do not think it was unreasonable to consider Iraq as a supplier of terrorist weapons to the highest bidders....a threat that would have to be dealt with. I do not fault Bush with the decision to act....I do fault him with how it has been handled afterwards.

Yes, it would be good if we pulled together as a country. Actually I think we have. There will always be dissenters and political headline-seekers but, for the most part from the people we don't read about, I feel that the country backed the president fairly well, especially those who remembered 9/11 and do not want to see another one.

Best of luck to you, soldier..
Tim
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34 posted 12-10-2003 12:16 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

"We cannot force democracy on countries that do not understand the concept of democracy. Especially, when their they have lived under a certain way for so many years. Let them be what they want."

I generally concur with Opeth and Balladeer except for the one statement.

One, why do we assume someone cannot understand the concepts of democracy?  It the inability to comprehend democracy endemic to the Middle East?

Perhaps somewhat the same view was taken of the far east and the Germans following WWII.

Democracy has worked in the Middle East. Lebanon was a working democracy until the Syrians invaded and controlled the country.

Let them be what they want?  That seems to be the crux of the problem, who is "them"?
Certainly the dictators, despots and ruling families are not much for wanting democractic reform.  The terrorists are not much for democracy.

Democractic forms of government do not have to be identical to the American model.  

The Middle East has been able to avoid entering the modern world because of its oil revenues and hatred of Isreal and the U.S. which allow its leaders to maintain control.

I have had the occasion to meet numerous individuals from the Middle East.  They seem to want what most people want, a good and decent life for their themselves and their children.  Perhaps if given the chance, they might be able to achieve their goals.

Craw
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35 posted 12-10-2003 08:36 AM       View Profile for Craw   Email Craw   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Craw



I think what sticks in the craw of a lot of people is the hypocrisy and cant that surround the attacks on, and continuing occupation of, Iraq and Afghanistan. Nobody in their right minds would argue that Saddam or the Taliban were anything other than cruel dictators, or that their people are better off without them. However exactly the same principle applies to many other countries' governments, some of whom, over the years, have been sustained by the USA and Britain. In fact if you cast your mind back not too far you will remember that both Saddam's Iraq and the Taliban were recipients of American and British money and weapons when it suited our policy to favour Iraq over Iran and the Taliban against the Soviets. Allied soldiers in both countries are currently being attacked by weapons we supplied in the first place. Given this background of political self-interest, the rest of the world is understandably cynical about talk of 'making the world safe for democracy'. Perhaps they would be more convinced if Bush and Blair turned their attention to countries like Saudi Arabia or China, two dictatorial governments with atrocious human rights records, or made a genuine effort to compel Israel to abandon the systematic dehumanisation of the people of Palestine. The USA and Britain's position has nothing to do with morality, so people are justified in asking what it is to do with. Oil? A paragraph in the history books?
S Arthur Grey
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36 posted 12-10-2003 10:41 AM       View Profile for S Arthur Grey   Email S Arthur Grey   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for S Arthur Grey

Speaking of lame, BS photo ops . . .
(someone listed a few earlier on this thread)

The big luscious looking turkey photo?  Now revealed to be a fake, an advertiser's photo prop.

So there!
Now this one too can go to top of the phony leadership opportunity list, until the next equally gaging photo op pops up.

Sad how many believe this stuff(ing).

s.a.g.
Opeth
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37 posted 12-10-2003 05:01 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Tim,

You may be correct, but what I have seen and what is known so far is this - where are the democratic freedom-fighters of Iraq like the kind we had here in our country during the Revolutionary War?

To me, it seems the overall populace of Iraq either does not desire to fight and die for freedom found in a democracy or the populace does not understand the concept of democracy and therefore lack in caring for it.

Either way, I still say we shouldn't be over there "forcing" our type of government on them.

"If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead."

Balladeer
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38 posted 12-10-2003 06:29 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Afraid I have to agree with Tim on this one. It has happened so many times throughout history. Look at the Chinese, for example. They have gadzillions of people. WHo could rule them in a tyrannical fashion if the banded together? Problem is they don't have the chance to band together. From birth many countries have their citizens under military rule. Children from birth are brainwashed as much as possible. People are placed in menial jobs with limited education. Their view of the outside world is whatever their rulers tell them it is. There was a North Korean on 60 Minutes not too long ago speaking of his country. He said that North Koreans have no idea what the rest of the world is like. They believe all of the other countries are exactly like theirs. They have no access to newspapers, television, radio....no way of knowing that they are living to such harsh conditions and poverty - they think everyone is. For those able to avoid the brainwashing they are watched. At the first sign that they may band together with other like-minded individuals, they are put in prison or just disappear, which happened a lot in Iraq. It can be easy to say "Why don't you rise up?" but much harder to do when you are just a small person against the might and grandeur of the military and every movement of yours is watched and you have no individual rights. The same tactics worked for years in the United States during the era of slavery. I doubt the blacks didn't want freedom but they were segregated and denied education in such a way it was impossible for them. There were no such controls in the American Revolution. We were ruled by England but not in such a fashion. Had there been that type of control and tyrrany then we would all be ordering crumpets now. They gave us enough freedom to band against them. Many countries today do not have that luxury....
Craw
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39 posted 12-11-2003 04:57 AM       View Profile for Craw   Email Craw   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Craw

Surely you're not describing the American 'Revolutionaries', that loose coalition of slave-owners, sociopaths, cut-throats and racketeers as 'democratic freedom fighters'. The only freedom they were worried about was freedom to make more money and occupy land that wasn't theirs. (Ring a bell?)

Repression by Britain (not England, which was not a politican entity in the 1760s and is not a political entity today) took the awful form of expecting the colonists to help pay for their own defence and obey the law.

[This message has been edited by Craw (12-11-2003 05:13 AM).]

Sunshine
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40 posted 12-11-2003 08:46 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Please, everyone,
remember that this is the lounge,
and not the Alley.  
Thank you.
Ericc
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41 posted 12-12-2003 06:18 PM       View Profile for Ericc   Email Ericc   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ericc

Hi everyone,

I have seldom seen such differing views expressed with such respect and caring for anothers opinion.

You should each be proud of this love displayed.

I know I am proud to bare witness.


Love,
Eric
 
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