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Passions in Poetry

IBPC

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Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


0 posted 11-12-2003 05:53 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Dear Poets

Have you heard of The InterBoard Poetry Competition (IBPC)?  The "event" has been growing very popular with poetry communites, helping to give greater recognition to internet poets and their work.
Here is some info:

The IBPC website is here:  http://www.webdelsol.com/IBPC/index.htm

And the rules: http://www.webdelsol.com/IBPC/rules.html

I was wondering if you think Passions may be able to participate in this?  Perhaps through the Critical Analysis Forum.  Would you like to?
It may be a good opportunity to represent us and get aquainted with some  of the other diverse forums and talents out there.   Just wished to mention it to you all and see what you think  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-12-2003 05:54 PM).]

Ron
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since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
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1 posted 11-12-2003 06:21 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

If you do a search on IBPC in the discussion forums, Essorant, you'll discover that the founder of the concept is a pipTalk Member, though I certainly haven't seen or heard from Gary in quite a while. We were invited to participate in IBPC about two and half years ago, but the Senior Moderators at the time decided to decline the offer.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


2 posted 11-13-2003 10:45 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I wonder if he would still be willing to let us be part of IBPC?  I just thought it sounded interesting and might give one a little something extra to challenge her/him with on the side; It may even be just the right thing to help give critical analysis a bit more of that critical "thrust"  people have been emphasizing.
In my wanderings I have noted that many seem from one board participating in "IBPC" often frequenting others  too, especially the critiquing and workshopping areas.  So it may certainly bring a few new folks here from other sites too.    
Unfortunatly some excellent poets of this site have left because there isn't enough "critical" effort and interests.  For ex.  Claire (Meadowmuse) Sid (cynicsRus)? perhaps even Gary himself and others who didn't say anything.  Do you think this would help give people a "critical" focus and challenge; and help reflect more the critical interests in Critical Analysis?  It is just a feeling --that it might be a good thing.  That is, if people are interested          


[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-14-2003 08:50 PM).]

Robtm1965
Member
since 08-20-2002
Posts 246


3 posted 11-15-2003 06:55 AM       View Profile for Robtm1965   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Robtm1965

Essorant

You are beating your head against a brick wall.  The brick wall in this case being the strong underlying purpose of Piptalk as espoused loud and clear on the Home Page:

“The pipTalk forums are dedicated to poetry, but more importantly, the forums are dedicated to fostering an understanding of the human condition through communication. Our poetry is a vehicle, fueled by imagination....”

Note the phrases “more importantly” and “fueled by imagination”.

The truth is Essorant that Piptalk isn’t about helping poets to improve via a vigorous exchange of views in a critical forum.  I might go further and say that it is so much concerned with “fostering ... understanding” between people (an extremely laudable purpose of course) that poetry itself becomes little more than a device by which people a drawn to the site to hopefully become better individuals.

You are totally right that many very talented and people have left the site as a result of having eventually realised how little importance is really attached to poetry itself and, on the other hand, the lengths senior moderators will go to stamp on anything that appears to them to threaten the “Family of Friends”.

The good news is that (in contrast to 4 years ago) there are now plenty of other sites out there that run critical forums in a courteous and fairly moderated way, giving emphasis to helping the poet improve his/her work rather than guiding them towards being a better person!  

And of course you can always return to Piptalk if you feel in need of a hug and a few kind words

Take care and good writing.

Rob

[This message has been edited by Robtm1965 (11-15-2003 06:56 AM).]

Janet Marie
Member Laureate
since 01-22-2000
Posts 18986


4 posted 11-15-2003 12:08 PM       View Profile for Janet Marie   Email Janet Marie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Janet Marie

quote:
that poetry itself becomes little more than a device by which people a drawn to the site to hopefully become better individuals.



Please, speak for yourself Robert...I, like MANY, came here for the poetry, for a love of poetry...I stayed to READ and LEARN, to be inspired, and to hopefully grow as a poet. If I want to "become a better individual" I'll go to church or a therapist.

quote:
how little importance is really attached to poetry itself



Really? SO then according to your line of reasoning...we could all just fore go the poetry and simply post recipe's and shopping lists and everyone would still be here interacting?

quote:
there are now plenty of other sites out there that run critical forums in a courteous and fairly moderated way, giving emphasis to helping the poet improve his/her work rather than guiding them towards being a better person!  

And of course you can always return to Piptalk if you feel in need of a hug and a few kind words



Your sarcasm is noted regardless of how you dress it up with smiley faces, as was your insult towards the senior moderators.(once again your personal agenda overshadows the reasons.)

You do poetry and many fine poets who post here such a disservice by attaching such shallowness to it.


And so, since you seem to think pips is only here for one reason, is that why you're still here? For the hugs? Or is it you are working on becoming a better person?

Well... either way... heres a hug..methinks you could use it.
cynicsRus
Senior Member
since 06-06-2003
Posts 599
So Cal So Cool!


5 posted 11-15-2003 01:09 PM       View Profile for cynicsRus   Email cynicsRus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit cynicsRus's Home Page   View IP for cynicsRus

quote:
Your sarcasm is noted regardless of how you dress it up with smiley faces, as was your insult towards the senior moderators.(once again your personal agenda overshadows the reasons.)


And yet, the irony hasn’t escaped some of us; how it seems perfectly acceptable for certain Moderators, (be they Senior, or otherwise) and Members (be they Senior, Laureate or otherwise) to toss their sarcastic, insulting barbs with impunity.


Sid @ www.cynicsRus.com www.primerhymeetc.com

[This message has been edited by cynicsRus (11-15-2003 01:17 PM).]

Toad
Member
since 06-16-2002
Posts 247


6 posted 11-15-2003 06:20 PM       View Profile for Toad   Email Toad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toad


quote:
The good news is that (in contrast to 4 years ago) there are now plenty of other sites out there that run critical forums in a courteous and fairly moderated way.


Rob,

Are there any sites in particular that you can recommend for CA?
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


7 posted 11-16-2003 12:18 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

May I offer:
http://forum.theatlantic.com/WebX?14@29.LEbpa3t0iLl.6@.ee6b2bd

It is a very good critiquing and workshopping forum.  And you may see a good sample of sharing the duties of IBPC nominating and selecting there as well.
I just thought some, especially those from critical analysis might be interested seeing if Passions could participate through the CA forum.  People 13+ may submit their poems so it is a good age range. And there are no clauses that I see that say you must have mutilated a poem in order to make it worthy of consideration; Nor does it say the philosophy of your site has to be this or that.   All it says is this must  take place in an area where more critiquing is done and we have one here at Passions--Critical Analysis    

[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-16-2003 03:54 PM).]

Robtm1965
Member
since 08-20-2002
Posts 246


8 posted 11-17-2003 04:39 PM       View Profile for Robtm1965   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Robtm1965

Janet

Sorry for the delayed reply I don't check in as frequently as I used to.

"Please, speak for yourself Robert..."

I always speak for myself ...  Lol.  I'm simply making a comment based partly on the undeniable fact that the PIP main page specifically says that the site is dedicated less to poetry itself than to something else, and partly on my own observations over 4 years.

I'm certainly not commenting on individual motivations Janet and I totally believe what you say about your own.

Also I should make it clear (yet again) that I am NOT denigrating the idea of a site which subordinates the act of trying to learn to write "good" poetry to that of "understanding the human condition".  I think PIP is great, I think most of the senior moderators are generally great and sincere people.  (More below).

"Really? SO then according to your line of reasoning...we could all just fore go the poetry and simply post recipe's and shopping lists and everyone would still be here interacting?"

My answer to this is "yes", in certain conditions, and logically I think the architect of this site would answer "yes" too.  The condition is simply that recipes and shopping lists would need to be able to generate the same appetite (no pun intended ... lol) for discussion and interaction as poetry.  The point here is that for the most part I don't believe that the vast majority (and there ARE major exceptions) of people who post to the Open forum are really interested in crafting a poem which is designed to "change" or "move" or "alter" a wide audience.  Sure, sometimes this IS the case, but at the volume of work produced you have to look at other motivations, like: to communicate their feelings, to vent, to say thanks to a friend, to celebrate an anniversary, to respond to parochial humour etc etc.  Poems can be and usually are quite intimate, and as most humans are intrigued by their contemporaries personal revelations and insights they have the edge over shopping lists .  Try "diaries".  I feel sure that if Ron were to scrap Open and substitute a "Diary Forum" it might be quite a hit!!

"Your sarcasm is noted regardless of how you dress it up with smiley faces, as was your insult towards the senior moderators.(once again your personal agenda overshadows the reasons.)"

You misunderstand.  Nope no sarcasm or insult intended Janet.  I really do think PIP does a fine job towards meeting Ron's stated prime aim, that of fostering a better understanding of the human condition.  I have made many friends here in the past and yes I like to check by now and then for a chat and even a hug (thank you ).  

My problem with PIP starts and finishes when people who have been chosen to monitor and police a site which is heavily weighted towards meeting that prime aim have influence in a part of the site which advertises itself as a "Critical Analysis" forum.  There is a conflict in my opinion.  I thought for a while that that conflict might be reconciled.  I no longer think that.  Hence my response to Essorant.

Hi Sid.

Craig

You might find something from here:
http://www.everypoet.org/pffa/forumdisplay.php?s=b1f48080df0ab384bf12cb1e9c1f2cea&forumid=33


Rob
Ron
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Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


9 posted 11-18-2003 08:36 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Rob, the conflict between learning to write better poetry and learning to better understand people exists only in the minds of those who insist on trying to draw a line between the two endeavors. There is no such line.

The tools used to build a house are important. We need to learn how to use a hammer and a saw and a level, if we are to have any hope that our walls will support a ceiling or that our doors and windows will be plumb enough to open and close. But the tools will never be the reason we build houses.

I've never really cared too much how someone learns to use their saw. They can read about saws, watch other people use saws, be coached by a self-proclaimed expert on saws, or even cut off their own fingers one by one until they learn how not to cut off their own fingers, and in the end, it really won't matter to me. Everyone learns differently, at different paces, in different ways, and often with very different results. As long as they have a reason to learn, they'll eventually find their own path.

Tools are important, Rob. But they're also pretty easy and, in my opinion, pretty much inevitable. Helping someone learn to use their saw is commendable. But, giving someone a reason to use a saw still has to come first.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


10 posted 11-18-2003 01:27 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I think we have enough reasons and tools we just don't have enough builders and timber on the site yet in Critical Analysis.  

Errandghost
Junior Member
since 09-10-2003
Posts 18
Thoroughly Abroad


11 posted 11-18-2003 02:10 PM       View Profile for Errandghost   Email Errandghost   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Errandghost

If people are not interested what should we resort to?
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


12 posted 11-18-2003 02:15 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

We must resort to: Not giving up
Toad
Member
since 06-16-2002
Posts 247


13 posted 11-18-2003 07:04 PM       View Profile for Toad   Email Toad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toad


Sometimes giving up is the sensible option.
Robtm1965
Member
since 08-20-2002
Posts 246


14 posted 11-19-2003 02:31 PM       View Profile for Robtm1965   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Robtm1965

"Sensible" is a sin I have never been accused of

More later Ron.

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


15 posted 11-19-2003 02:42 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Even though I find some "flaws" in the forum I like to post most, Critical Analysis, I am not going to give up and move away to another site; I like the warmth and the accomodatingness at Passions.

The only flaws I see right now are:

The CA forum is too loose.
I think it needs to nurture a more workshop-like enviroment, but in such away that keeps the temperature at warmth and friendliness too, like the Poetry Workshop.

But none of that may happen if we don't have very many people.  There are not enough partakers; but this is understandable.  I don't think most people find critiquing easy.  I certainly don't.  Even though I think I know how a critique ought to be, I am unable to deliver anything as well as I wish I may.  So it disturbs me when one of my critiques/comments is the only one to a person's poem.  
I think we need to encourage people to note that everything counts of a critical effort here, even if it is not perfect and especially when it goes along with the contribution of others at the same time.  There is no need to be a professional in CA; but there is a need to show that one gave a critical approach and effort.  
I've been really glad to see more people  from other forums showing up and helping out of late.  If we could get more of that, keep Rob and Sid, and get Claire and Christoper back that would do the forum best I think.  But also  other moderators in CA need to be more present and active,  so all the moderating weight isn't cast mostly just on one person.  I surely may be wrong, but it seems like it would be a bit difficult.  Many new members go directly to CA and deserve a greeting, a critique, and often some extra guidance about posting and critiqing in CA, but one moderator may sometimes not adress everyone; everyone still deserves to be acknowledged.  More moderators could indeed help, ensure  everyone who comes to CA gets to be greeted, gets her poems critiqued at least once, and gets any extra guidence/help/answers he may need from a moderator/member.  
If something toward that could happen, I think it would be perfect    
Just some thoughts.


[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-19-2003 11:54 PM).]

Magic Solias
Member
since 11-08-2003
Posts 76
California, USA


16 posted 11-19-2003 07:11 PM       View Profile for Magic Solias   Email Magic Solias   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magic Solias

I believe that we should not restrict ourselves to the CA forum to analyze and comment on poetry in a serious fashion.  We are not writing diaries here but poetry.  There is such a mass of poetry released in the forums each day that it is difficult to even read half of them, or even comment on them.  But that's also the beauty of open forums.  The reader selects what to like and read, not the editor.  Surely, if you want your poetry to be picked apart, I can do this for you.  But not for free, no editor has that much time.  I agree with Ron, poetry is just a vehicle, not the goal.  It's a good vehicle because it can be quite precise in codifying thoughts or other experiences.  But there are other forms we humans use to express ourselves, including the sciences, philosophy, prose, visual arts, music, acting, dance, religion etc.  That this site asks us for self-improvement is just a logical outcome considering poetry as a vehicle of expression, seen in a compassionate light.  I will comment on any poem in any thread here at pip that I have time to read.  Time is indeed limited, considering the need for having some writing my own "poetry-diary" day after day.

Magic Solias

"we dream to love and love to dream"

Robtm1965
Member
since 08-20-2002
Posts 246


17 posted 11-20-2003 04:49 PM       View Profile for Robtm1965   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Robtm1965

Ron

Assuming that your tools are poems and the house human understanding I take it that you are saying that poetry is "pretty easy" (although I accept that you were being comparative), and essentially merely one instrument in striving for a higher endeavour; that of understanding each other and living harmoniously.  

Further you are saying that the principal REASON we learn to write poetry is to enable us to take strides towards that goal of better understanding?  

Also you say that you don't much care how someone learns how to write poetry.  

On this latter point at least I'm clear that you DO in fact care.  Or at least you appear to care sufficiently to set quite strict parameters upon what can and cannot go on in your CA forum.  I don't think for instance that you would condone a learning regime where a third party cuts off a finger of a pupil each time that pupil breaks a saw blade in his effort to learn.


On your main point though I think, Ron, that if we disagreed at all it would be over emphasis.  Your main site preamble really does suggest that poems are essentially here as mere vehicles for communication (tools) in the furtherance of the really important goal; human understanding (the house).  

I agree with you that the end goal (the house) is more important than the tools used to build it.  I also agree that poetry can help in moving toward that goal.   Where we may diverge just a little is in your apparent suggestion that that is all that poetry is: just an effective means of communication.  I suspect you're going to wade in here now and tell me that in fact you agree with me that it IS much more (I'm not going to tackle the debate about poetry as a "stand alone art form" right here) but that doesn't preclude it from being a form of communication as well.

That's just fine and I accept it.

But here's the rub.  Much of the writing in the Open forums, and much of PIP for that matter, take the communication element so entirely to heart that any other function or aspiration of poetry is entirely submerged.  Essentially what we are seeing is poems being used as forms of personal communication and not much more.  This is totally what one would expect from the Home Page preamble and I have to say that it's pretty uplifting to see threads like this:
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum82/HTML/003420.html

But would a sincere letter not have done as good a job?  I won't go on!  But I could pick a thousand poems which are simply concerned with getting down on paper (screen) the writer's feelings at a particular moment so that he/she can consult with/empathise with/seek solace from/laugh with/berate/thank his or her peers.  

These poems are not about writing BETTER they are simply about writing, and often simply an outpouring of feelings.

Which leads me neatly into the crux of what you said:

"Rob, the conflict between learning to write better poetry and learning to better understand people exists only in the minds of those who insist on trying to draw a line between the two endeavors. There is no such line."

I agree entirely.  And I didn't in fact suggest that there WAS such a conflict.  

The difficulty is, as will now be apparent to you, that I don't believe that most of the people here have the prime aim of writing "better".  Sure, it might be incidental, in the sense that they would quite like to write better if it just happens.  But essentially they are following a straight line course towards your goal of a better understanding of the human condition (your house) and a cheap easily obtainable hammer can knock a nail in a floor board just as fast as a hammer which takes 5 years to forge.  

No, of course there's no conflict of the type you describe.  The conflict I was highlighting is specific to this site and exists only because on the one hand we have a forum (CA) which I happen to believe should be about trying to learn to write better poetry and on the other we have the remainder of the whole PIP site which is largely (with the possible exception of the workshop forums) NOT about learning to write better poetry.  This in itself wouldn't be problematic except for the fact that you have decided that it is appropriate to subject the CA forum to exactly the same guidelines and policing as the remainder of the site.  "Senior moderators" (i.e. moderators who in the vast majority are concerned with non-critical forums) decide whether or not the CA element of PIP can participate in the IBPC for instance.  And senior moderators are free to intervene and edit replies and posts in CA.  

As a result you have created a place (in CA) which attracts and holds neither the "social" poet nor the more serious writer.  In fact you've managed to create a place which holds absolutely nobody's attention for very long.

Ron are you afraid to let the moderators of CA have complete autonomy, yet have the trust in them to remain faithful to the PIP ethic of respect and tolerance?

Rob

[This message has been edited by Robtm1965 (11-21-2003 09:17 AM).]

Toad
Member
since 06-16-2002
Posts 247


18 posted 11-20-2003 07:03 PM       View Profile for Toad   Email Toad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toad


Ron,

I’ve no interest in taking part myself but I can’t for the life of me think of one good reason why the senior Moderators would be so opposed to PIP members who are so inclined taking part. I fully understand that they might decline the offer because they don’t want to take part, as I said I’m not interested myself but why decline the offer on behalf of everyone else?

Is there something inherently wrong with the IBPC that you and the Mods aren’t telling us?
Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 11-03-1999
Posts 4427
Oklahoma, USA


19 posted 11-20-2003 10:18 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

I don't see anything wrong either with PIP members participating. But, as I read their rules, it would have to be PIP rather than the member submitting. If that is the case then it seems perfectly valid for the PIP administration to make the decision whether to participate or not. It also appears that any member could submit, or at least try, through another board. I'm not sure what the argument is here.

Pete
Toad
Member
since 06-16-2002
Posts 247


20 posted 11-21-2003 02:00 PM       View Profile for Toad   Email Toad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toad


I wasn’t trying to be argumentative Pete, I was just curious as to why the Senior Mods were so set against the IBPC scheme, presumably it was discussed in the Mod Forum, can you shed any light on it? Or is it too sensitive a subject to discuss in an open forum? I don’t want to put anyone on the spot btw, if it’s none of my business just say so and I’ll shut my trap and wander off to another thread.

My reading of the rules is the same as yours, the Forum or a representative of the Forum puts forward the poems to be judged, poems from individual poets are not accepted. If the Senior Mods felt that the additional administration this caused outweighed the advantages of offering PIP members the chance to take part then that’s fine, my curiosity is sated. Though I have to admit that I find it hard to believe that the extra administration is such a major hurdle – if enough members are interested couldn’t you just appoint one of them to run it? After all, as they say almost everywhere:

“It isn’t rocket science”. (btw do you think NASA has an alternative? Maybe they use “It isn’t iambic pentameter”)

As I said earlier I’m not interested in entering any ramblings but I imagine the attraction of entering and possibly winning this competition would appeal to a lot of members and could certainly play a part in rejuvenating CA . Plus of course having a winner from PIP wouldn’t be a bad advertisement for this site either, if the hurdle is just the extra admin is it worthwhile re-exploring the IBPC scheme?


Thanks for the chance to read and reply.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


21 posted 11-27-2003 10:40 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Bumped" to the top, for Gina  

 
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