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cliches |
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eminor_angel Member
since 2003-05-22
Posts 323Canada |
What do you guys think about using cliches in poetry? I personally believe that it saps the originality and appeal, but maybe that's just me.  |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
I did a search under poetry AND discussion and some 94 spots came up for discussion of cliches. Here's one of them. /pip/Forum29/HTML/000615.html#26 After you do some reading, come back with your comments... |
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eminor_angel Member
since 2003-05-22
Posts 323Canada |
I think there are some phrases which are obviously cliche . . . that's mainly what i'm refering to. Things like, my heart beats a mile per minute, so quiet you can hear a pin drop,got your goat. Things like that. I don't believe that those belong in poetry, unless you use them with a unique spin to good effect . . . I'd still like the opinions of the more recent users, even though this topic has been discussed in the past. I hope that's okay, Sunshine, and thanks for the link. |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
What I find interesting to do is to take a cliche and change the meaning to give it either an expanded meaning or an alternative meaning. [This message has been edited by Opeth (08-26-2003 02:52 PM).] |
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Wind
since 2002-10-12
Posts 2981 |
I really don't care. unless you invent your own language (grins) then every word you use has be used hurndreds of times. it really doesn't matter. all we do is tear the words apart and paste them together in another way. so cliches don't bother me. insanity is not a crime |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Sounds to me like we need a definition? Is a cliché simply something that has been said before? How many times does it need to be said before it becomes a cliché? |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
Two ... but who's counting ?  ~*When the heart grieves over what it has lost, |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
So, the second time it's uttered, it's not yet a cliché? But the third time is?  I realize you're at least half-joking, Marge, and that's fine. But my questions are serious ones. There are some who defend clichés in poetry as being inevitable, but one has to wonder if they really understand what it is they are defending. Others, especially in CA, are quick to point out a cliché, as if it is a mortal sin. But what is they are pointing out to us? ... but who's counting? We've all certainly heard that same phrase, in pretty much this same context, used far more than just twice. Does that make it a cliché? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I think too much of anything will cloy after a while and wax full loathed. Who may thanksgiving turkey have every night and enjoy it as freshly again and again, and again! The turkey initially, intimitaly the lustily beloved meal now becomes a chore to engage in the eating--it is cliche. Even thinking about it may make mind and stomach parbreak. Or who may listen to christmas plaguy jingles and commercialism incessantly and not become fairly wearied out? I think of cliche as being like that--they are outwearied means and themes that we cloy us with. We don't always mean to cloy us with something but nevertheless we get cloyed and the result is, cliche! |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Hey how did you add the accented e to cliche? Is there an html tag...? [This message has been edited by Essorant (08-27-2003 03:07 AM).] |
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Local Parasite
since 2001-11-05
Posts 2527Transylconia, Winnipeg |
There's a simple difference, Ron, and it's not difficult to understand. In fact, I'll bet everyone already realizes it. The problem with cliches is that you're taking something from memory, something you've heard before, and using it in your own poetry. That is, a huge chunk of something you've heard before... not just a word or two, although even certain words can be cliche in a given context. Not all cliches are phrases. Cliches are also concepts that have been overused, and that obviously didn't take any creative work on the part of the author to come up with. That's the problem with cliche, everyone... it's an easy way out. A great big glaring scar on your poem that says "I couldn't think of something to say on my own so I used this thing that I've heard said somewhere before." You've heard the phrase "Nothing New Under The Sun?" I always thought of poetry as a way of refuting that. Faith is a fine invention |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Mmmm. Someone care to take that just a little farther? What kinds of concepts are often overused? quote: But what's wrong with easy? I drive to the store not because I can't walk ten miles, but because it's easier. Isn't easy a good thing? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Then again the saying "rosey fingered dawn" shows up myriads of times in Iliad but I never get tired of the suggestion of the rays of morning being like fingers with rosy touch. Do you think that phrase/idea was cliche in Homer's time? Is it just unique in our day because few people refer to it that way? Perhaps he simply felt it was the (or his) most adequate and eloquent way of characterizing morning so was nothing loth to employ the phrase whenever he needed or pleased to describe morning. If you feel something perhaps often said or suggested is a best or most needful mean for an expression of yours overall why betake anything else? Being different just for the sake of being different is such a cliche today. [This message has been edited by Essorant (08-27-2003 02:20 PM).] |
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eminor_angel Member
since 2003-05-22
Posts 323Canada |
I once read a definition of cliche as a phrase that has (generally) obscure origin, ei. rule of thumb, got your goat, etc. However, I think this is quite a narrow description of a broad topic. |
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Local Parasite
since 2001-11-05
Posts 2527Transylconia, Winnipeg |
Essorant, yeah, I also noticed Homer didn't seem to care how much he used something, at least in Iliad. At least half of the similies he used compared something to a lion. I started rolling my eyes every time I read something like "Diomed pounced, like a lion," or whatever... and just because a famous poet does it doesn't make it any less what it is. It might not be cliche to compare something to a lion, but it's possible for one poet to use that analogy way, way too much, and I personally feel Homer did. Then again, I've only read him in translation. quote: Well, let's say for example a poem describing how someone's heart has been broken into a million pieces. You could say that a thousand different ways and it'd still be cliche, because the metaphor of a heart literally breaking like glass has been done to death. quote: You like analogies, right? So how's this... If we were both given swords and meant to have a swordfight, and I took out a gun halfway into it and shot you dead, would that make me a better swordsman? No. By your logic, however, I suppose it would. It depends on what you're going for, Ron. Some things, like a trip to the store, have a specific and simple goal in mind, with no regard given to the act itself... which is why the easiest way makes the most sense. Walking or driving to the store, either way, you'll end up at home with whatever you went to the store to buy. Poetry, on the other hand, is an exhibition of skill. Have you heard the term "creative writing?" Key word is "creative." You're "creating" something. Not copy-pasting something, but creating, out of your own imaginative mind. And as for the "easier is better" thing, well, that's a very dangerous way of thinking, although a good example of how American we all are. Why is easier always better? Doesn't it teach us to be lazy? If I walk to the store instead of driving, maybe it'll help to keep me in shape? Easier tends to have its drawbacks, and it tends to make us lazy. Faith is a fine invention |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Bingo? Well, almost. So, what is the underlying goal of a metaphor. How does a metaphor accomplish that goal? And why is a clichéd metaphor, pretty much by definition, a disruption of that goal? quote: quote: If the goal of our fight was to prove who was the better swordsman, then using a gun would certainly not be the easiest way to do it. And, if the goal of going to the store was to stay in shape, driving my car wouldn't be the easiest way to do it. Whether "easy" is good or bad depends in large part on our underlying goals. Which raises the obvious next question. Does every line or passage or image in a poem necessarily share a common goal? Or, more pointedly, does every line, passage or image deserve the same attention? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Local Parasite, "Well, let's say for example a poem describing how someone's heart has been broken into a million pieces. You could say that a thousand different ways and it'd still be cliche, because the metaphor of a heart literally breaking like glass has been done to death." So if someone's feelings/heart truly do seem breaking like glass to you, you should yet eschew referring to it through that analogy for very fear of it being a cliche? Are originalness and creativeness then more important than the strongest impression and accuracy? [This message has been edited by Essorant (08-28-2003 03:05 AM).] |
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eminor_angel Member
since 2003-05-22
Posts 323Canada |
"So if someone's feelings/heart truly do seem breaking like glass to you, you should yet eschew referring to it through that analogy for very fear of it being a cliche? Are originalness and creativeness then more important than the strongest impression and accuracy?" That's precisely the problem with cliches: their accuracy and effect are toned down because of their lack of originality. And yes, creativeness is of utmost importance! After all, cliche phrases are not the product of the writer's imagination; rather, they belong to other people. |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Example of a cliche: "She is at the end of her rope." The meaning, of course, is based on hopelessness for a given situation. But, how about taking the meaning a little further by using some creativity in one's writing, such as this: "She can't even climb to the end of her rope." A modified cliche makes it no longer a cliche, imo. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
What about like this: It frays her rope and grip on hope [This message has been edited by Essorant (08-29-2003 12:17 PM).] |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Yep. I would consider that a modified cliche, hence it is an original writing and no longer a cliche. |
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Local Parasite
since 2001-11-05
Posts 2527Transylconia, Winnipeg |
quote: It's not. The cliche doesn't disrupt the "goal" of the metaphor, it disrupts the "goal" of the entire poem. You can easily disagree with me on the fact that the goal of poetry is to create something imaginative, creative and original, which I firmly believe and I'll bet quite a few other poets will agree with. The goal of the metaphor has nothing to do with it. quote: And if the goal is writing a creative poem, then using cliche is certainly no way of going about that. Glad you agree with me. quote: If you call each line of a poem "poetry," then yes, there's a common goal: the goal of writing a poem. As I've said, the cliche defeats the goal of the entire poem as a whole, and not just some individual aspect of the poem. If your goal is to touch someone deeply, and you could best accomplish that with the use of some cliche, then perhaps it's not that cliche has a place in poetry but, rather, that poetry is not the best way to go in this particular instance? Cliches can be useful, sure, just not in poetry. Poetry requires an element of creativity and imagination in order for it to have any merit. You're free to get all democratic on me and say something like "you can't define poetry," but that's something I'm not willing to buy. Words like "art" and "poetry" get so abused these days and it's truly very sad. Faith is a fine invention When gentlemen can see But microscopes are prudent In an emergency. ~~~Emily Dickinson [This message has been edited by Local Parasite (08-29-2003 01:16 PM).] |
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Local Parasite
since 2001-11-05
Posts 2527Transylconia, Winnipeg |
quote: In poetry, yes. If you're going for a strong impression and accuracy, by all means string together a few cliches, but don't call it poetry... what's poetic about reciting something from memory? Faith is a fine invention |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
It's ok...I have a secret access to river lethe so whenever I run out of alternatives I just fetch a lethe-draught and besprinkle it on the reader so he forgets what he is reading is cliche... It is very handy. But sometimes I sprinkle all too much and then he forgets how to read altogether...it's annoying when that happens!  [This message has been edited by Essorant (08-29-2003 03:06 PM).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Then why use words, sentences, grammar, or punctuation? Those have all been pretty much done to death, don't you think, and leave much less room for imagination, creativity and originality than would, uh, gobbledygook. If those are your only goals, there seems little point in confining yourself to common language. There is nothing in your specification, after all, that suggests your poetry should be comprehensible? Once in a while, I like to drop the top on the Miata and go for a long, relaxing drive. I think that's a bit what you're suggesting poetry should be, Brian. Usually, though, when I get in the Miata, I have a specific someplace I want to go. The car may be necessary to get me there, but in spite of that, I don't confuse the vehicle with the destination. |
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Local Parasite
since 2001-11-05
Posts 2527Transylconia, Winnipeg |
Holy backwards assumption, Ron... I've very frequently been the one to sneer at those who think poetry is a long relaxing drive, and here you are accusing me of having no goals with my writing? Believe me, I have goals, but I also think that goals are achievable within a certain set of restrictions and rules that go along with the idea of writing a poem. Trust me, I don't just write for the sake of personal therapy, I do have a specific goal to my writing. When I write, I have a message, something that I'm trying to say... an idea I'm trying to articulate for my reader to try and get them to understand what I'm saying. You're going to argue that a goal like this is easily achieved by simply talking to a person, right? Well, I've thought of that, too. In fact, for a long time I've struggled with myself over what the goal of my poetry is, but I've decided that simply telling something to a person isn't enough. You have to show them, demonstrate for them, in a way that is striking and imaginative, to allow them inside of your mind. Creativity isn't just about saying "hey look everyone, I created something!" Creativity's nothing without a message, or as you're putting it, a goal. All that I'm saying is, what we're talking about is whether or not cliches in poetry are such a bad thing. We've confused it with a million analogies and I think it's time we just addressed the point head-on instead of so mangling our subject matter. Poetry itself is something specific and definable. It's an art form that focuses on language and formatting, combining the imagination and the solid, natural universe. Have you ever read the Lyrical Ballads, or even just the preface to it? I'm assuming you have, because you seem to be a very well-read man... well, it's a good idea to look up the classics and read their own ideas of what "poetry" was before giving a whole bunch of wacky liberal suggestions on how to deface it. Your suggestion that we throw out language, words, etc, other things that have been "done to death" as you say, is an easy way of escaping the definition of what poetry is. It's not as easily comparable to cliche as you're trying to make us think it is. Yes, a lot of people do throw out language from their art, for whatever reason. They're the sculptors, painters, performance artists, and so on... but they probably wouldn't call themselves poets, and even if they did, I think it'd be pretty easy to prove them wrong. Bottom line: Poetry is an art form based on the manipulation of language through imagination and technique. Cliche doesn't fit in poetry because it is an already existing manipulation of language. Think plagiarism on a smaller scale. If I wrote down Wordsworth's "Lines written a few miles above Tintern Abbey," would that make me a poet? Hardly. That'd be something that already exists which I'm taking credit for. I'm envisioning a thousand different arguments you could make against me, but instead of pouncing on them now, I'll just see if you even bother to go near them. Your turn. Faith is a fine invention |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: You can, of course, be very specific and define poetry in any way you like -- as long as you don't actually expect others to agree with you. There's a few thousand years of attempts out there, and the best minds of this species have so far failed to produce an all-inclusive definition of poetry. It seems no matter the definition, someone can always find a poem that falls outside the definition. quote: Can you name something that isn't an already-existing manipulation of language? quote: So close. You see to be standing in an open doorway, where much of what you say indicates you clearly see everything on the other side, and I just can't get you to take that final step to articulate what needs to be said. Would you mind terribly a little shove? Creativity is the vehicle, but understanding is invariably our destination. The question then becomes whether creativity is the only vehicle available. Can we get from here to there in any other way? To answer that question, at least in part, let's first return to an earlier question. What is the goal of a metaphor and how does it accomplish that goal? In 1950, Robert Francis published a poem called Catch that uses a very delightful extended metaphor to give us better insight into metaphors (and all of the many other figures of speech available to the poet). Two boys uncoached are tossing a poem together, Imagine if the two boys were standing three feet apart. Not much fun in that game of catch. Imagine if one of the boys insisted on throwing the ball in a direction opposite the other boy. Not much fun there, either. Playing catch, if we are to enjoy it, can be neither too easy nor too hard. Perhaps even more importantly, Francis reminds us, in his first line, that catch is a participatory endeavor, necessarily involving at least two people. Both of the boys are active, not passive, participants. A metaphor imparts understanding by guiding us from point A to point B by way of passing through the seemingly unrelated point X. I start at A, with no real clue how to move to B because I have an incomplete understanding of what lies at B. Using Francis's example, I don't really understand figurative imagery in a poem. However, I do understand, from fond memories, the pleasure of a challenging game of catch. That game of catch becomes my point X, an unlikely path that ultimately leads to B and a deeper understanding of what lies at B. My reward for making the trip is that intensely satisfying feel, that gratifying sound the speeding ball makes when it meets the glove, and is strangely similar to way the reader's mind clicks when he gets that "pretty one plump in his hands." A cliché is typically a figure of speech that no longer requires me to pass through point X. I have gone from A to X to B so many times in the past that I no longer need your guidance and can immediately jump to where you indicate I should go. The path is a revisited journey, one I've made countless times, and will never reveal anything I didn't already understand. Just as importantly, I think, the cliché has robbed me of my sense of participation. I look down and find a ball in my glove, with no memory of that satisfying smack as it hit my glove. Does that mean there is absolutely no room in great literature for cliché? It depends. My earlier explanation was simplified, because very rarely are we simply going from A to B. Depending on the poem and the goal, we more frequently are going from A to C or N or even all the way to Z. Some journeys are necessarily more complex than others, but that only slightly changes the nature of the journey, because the promised reward still lies at the terminus, regardless of how far away the terminus lies. Even that's too simplified, of course, because a long journey will require small rewards along the way, all leading toward the final reward, but for our purposes here, those can be largely ignored. As the writer, I see you standing at point A. I want to get you to C, and I'm going to do so by taking you through X. Can X be a cliché? Absolutely not! If it is, there's really no reason for you to make the trip, and there certainly won't be any satisfaction for either of us when you eventually reach C. My promise of a reward is empty and will never be fulfilled. Before I can get you to X, however, which we all agree can't be a cliché, I first have to move you from A to point B. Now, if B is a very strange place, I might have to take you through Y to get you there. That can be a dangerous diversion, though, especially since B is so close to our ultimate destination of C. I need to get you to B, but that's not really our goal or the purpose of the poem, and the last thing I want to do is confuse or distract you just before we arrive at C. It's always a judgement call, but sometimes the best way to get you from A to B is with a simple cliché. There's no new understanding offered, there's no reward for making you go from A to B, but I'm just about ready to smash that ball into your glove at C anyway. Go back, now, and read Francis's poem again, this time paying special attention to line eight. "Anything under the sun" is a cliché. It's a vital cliché at this point in the poem, because the author can't afford to confuse more important images by introducing a brand new way to describe this. He very much wants you to slide from A to B without thinking about it, because C is already speeding towards your outstretched glove. If he used a creative, original image for something obviously NOT pertaining to the real goal of the poem, you would probably miss the ball. Imagination, creativity, and originality are the spices we add to the meat of a poem, but clearly, too much spice can ruin a meal just as quickly as can too little. If your poem is going from A to G, you probably can't get away with making each of the stops along the way a quick cliché. Your reader will get hungry on an extended journey and you have to feed them along the way. But you can't give them a highly spiced seven-course meal at each stop, either, else they'll have indigestion long before you can get them to the REAL meal awaiting them at G. Where you feed the reader defines the timing and pace of the poem, and will always depend in large part on your goals. The goal is everything. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Ron, Well spoken. I agree cliches are respectable whenas subsidiary means to a main poetic mean whose success thereto may be determined by usage, placing, timing! If one commences a poem with a cliche I would find that very unbecoming. But if someone uses a cliche a bit after the main entrance to help bring out the architecture and bear the audience to the main center that may avail very well. I can accept them if they are nice and discreet but when they are blunt and conspicuous they make a piece seem to me like drama and acting more than a poetic inditing. [This message has been edited by Essorant (08-30-2003 07:42 PM).] |
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